Onward.

We restart.

EJ: please sit. Kate Harris are you all right to continue?

KH: yes

MG: I apologise if I said something upsetting. I’ll put the question in brief way for a yes/no. You’d accept others use words such as SE differently to you. Or lesbian for that matter. 

I don’t know what the E in SE is an abbreviation for; it’s not in the list of abbreviations at the top. Expression doesn’t make any sense and I don’t know what else it could be. I don’t know why it’s not SO for sexual orientation. Anyway, the important thing is Kate Harris’s response.

KH: my good friend Allison Bailey said the word lesbian is taken. The word is taken by us. I’m going to speak for millions of lesbians around the world. We love other women. We will not have that stolen from us. 

There have always been men who say feel they’re a lesbian tee hee hee. Always jocular. Lesbians often a laughing stock. We will not be. We will not be erased and no man with a penis will tell us he’s a lesbian because he feels he is.

Bam!

MG: when you talk of tee hee, different than Paul Roberts.

KH: Paul Roberts is far more offensive. He had no interest in lesbians. In particular, the 4000% increase in girls who think they are trans. I felt indifference from him about these phenomena while running an lgbt Consortium. 

Almost as if the G and T matter more than the L. Almost.

KH: Contempt in this ideology that ignores women and lesbians. We formed LGBS because we were not prepared to see lesbians erased. I’m proud to speak for lesbians attracted to human females. A lesbian is attracted to another biological woman full stop. 

MG: You set up lgba to fight that?
KH: It was set up for children…we were concerned about children growing up fed a tissue of lies about the myth that you can change sex. You cannot change sex.
MG: That’s political.

I guess the background idea is that a charity can’t be political? Since that’s what this hearing is about? At any rate it’s so absurd. It’s not “political” – not inherently. It’s been made political by all the political bullshit about men who are really women because they have a feminine soul.

KH: You keep trying to make me agree without [discussing] what lies behind it which is the safeguarding of children. 

Our primary concern is that children should be given facts, education and the ability to make decisions as they get older. They have a fundamental right of going through puberty. You’re trying to suggest we’re a political campaign in a vacuum. We’re driven by concern for children. 

And the concern for children has to do with the extremely political campaign to impose gender ideology on everyone and punish all dissent. If you think gender ideology is not political you might as well go the the store for a new brain, yours is broken.

Jumping ahead a few lines.

MG: The language you use is prejudicial. You don’t talk about Gender Critical.

KH: We don’t like the term. We use ideology as it has crept like Japanese knotweed through the media, education, the BBC. Its overwhelming influence means the public is being misinformed. Adults are able to work through it. Our biggest concern is that children are lied to. That’s a red flag. 

MG: When you say evidence based, you’re fully convinced.
KH: We were once the only voice saying this, and now we’re seeing NHS changes, the Cass review, people sitting up, parents raising concerns. There is more light on it. You may say it’s extreme to use ‘ideology’ but we’ve seen how it’s used around the world.

…

MG: You say children are lied to? 

KH: yes..I’d love it if SW said look at what Anne Fausto-Sterling said about Gender Identity as not being helpful anymore. Let’s look at mass info and 4000% increase. We hope people are looking under the radar at what has been happening over the last few years.

MG: the phrase new phase of working and accusing someone of lying to children. That’s deliberate.

KH: yes deliberate, that’s why we’re so pleased that one leader has said we need to look at it. Does anyone remember the South Sea Bubble and everyone went crackers? This is a similar sign of madness. 

The madness of crowds, to be specific. See also: aliens; recovered memory syndrome; Freud; Jonestown; Heaven’s Gate; Jesus and Mo.

Can’t emphasis how many intelligentsia people have lost their minds on this issue. We heard a lot of being kids and may be a lot of people have overcorrected. It’s a new homophobia that they think they’re being kind. Just falling for a myth.

God ain’t that the truth about the intelligentsia people. The “skeptics” in particular.

MG: I want to clarify. I said lied to and you say they believed. It can’t be a lie if they believe.

KH: can’t it?

I go back and forth on this question all the time. It’s a real question. The way I answer it for myself is generally that there are some things people have no right to believe. “Right” in a metaphorical sense – literally speaking of course they do have the right. There are claims that are just too absurd for anyone over the age of 5 to believe.

MG: happy to engage in debate by accusing of lying?

KH: We want people to look at the social phenomenon of young girls on a medical pathway, mastectomies, on 2 for 1 in America. Well worth looking at, and charities like Mermaids, Stonewall and the LGBT Consortium…I’d ask why aren’t they bothered. I’d say to all we need to look at evidence.

MG: you don’t retract the word lie?

KH: cannot handle dishonesty. Sorry if offensive but it’s a lie for children to be told they were born in the wrong body.

Which is more offensive? Telling children they were born in the wrong body, or calling that claim a lie?

Powerful stuff at the tribunal this morning.

EJ: good morning AR. Peace has descended and we hope no further interruption. Good Morning everyone. Carry on where we left off Michael Gibbon KC lawyer for Mermaids.

MG: morning. Just remind where we got to. We were talking about looking at that doc, particular words and phrases, reference to sexual orientation, adversity to gay and bisexuality people, later discrimination on grounds of sexual orientation. No mention of GC view? 

Kate Harris [of LGBA]: that’s correct. IS will know our app to the Charity Commission took a year. No criticism. Comes between lawyers and CC, the difference between us and other is the emphasis on the centrality of differences between men and women. Clearly laid out. 

I think what they’re talking about is how LGBA described itself to the Charity Commission, and Gibbon is hinting or saying that they didn’t call themselves gender critical and that was sneaky? He’s hinting or saying that and Harris is saying it wasn’t sneaky, if I understand correctly.

KH: Words missing as we thought this was easily understood by the majority who believe in definitions in the Equality Act.

In other words: yes duh we called ourselves Lesbian Gay Bisexual Alliance and we didn’t feel any need to say BY THE WAY THAT MEANS ACTUAL LESBIANS WHO ARE ACTUALLY WOMEN.

In other other words the burden of proof isn’t on lesbians to remind people what “lesbian” means; it’s on the people who have decided to reverse the meanings of “lesbian” and “gay” and “women” and “men.”

MG: not here to ask about law. On face of doc it doesn’t mention GC or biological sex and no definition legal or otherwise.

KH: no

MG: not suggesting didn’t have convos but ness [need?] to give definitions. 

KH: don’t agree. Gave responses following petition. Objects were based on SW, well known for last 30 years and we thought most people would understand SSE based on biology. Using language on EA.
MG: matter down the line of how EA should be understood.

MG: presume you saw the application before it was submitted.
KH: yes.
MG: this is ‘benefits of LGBA’ [reads ‘ LGBA position is only 2 sexes and gender is a social construct’]
Wasn’t something arose later, was included in app?
KH: agree 

I’m not sure if that’s “Didn’t something arise later?” or “Wasn’t something added later?”

MG: back to 236. Obviously you expressed your view of how words should be understand. You would accept in practice a lot of people use sex and gender interchangeably.

KH: since 2015 

MG: is that right since 2015?
KH: issue and why those words form central part of our thinking and activity because of those who wish to remove sex and replace with gender. We see in west Australia, Victoria, Canada.

I’m guessing she said it became an issue around 2015.

KH: Those who campaign for GI replace sex with gender. Our position is that’s very dangerous, confusing and goes against all science and reason.

MG: didn’t need to state it?
KH: we did then. Need to make even clearer [now?]

MG: other people have different understanding of SE and lesbian? You saw Paul Roberts and his understanding.

KH: You mean a lesbian can be a man with a penis?

MG: putting it in a neutral way. Lesbian can include someone who is a woman as a result of Gender Recognition [Act]? That’s how Paul Roberts understands it. 

KH (long pause)

EJ: is everything all right Miss Harris? We’ll rise for a moment and get KH a tissue and glass of water.

(Court adjourned) 

So there you have it. Oddly enough women find it upsetting to be told that a law says men can be women. Lesbians find it upsetting to be told that a law says men can be lesbians.

We find it upsetting, maddening, insulting, outrageous that the historically dominated controlled bullied sex can now not even define itself; that men are going to steal even the sex – but not of course the domination and control and bullying that does with it. Men have found a new and even more sadistic way to bully women: by pretending to be women themselves and then rubbing our noses in it.

What’s wrong with this claim?

How does one be a woman “philosophically”? I suppose he means ontologically. How does one be a woman “in practice”? I suppose he means by doing all the playacting things – wearing skirts, simpering, tilting the head, bellowing “IT’S MA’AM!!” But of course playacting isn’t how one can be a thing. It’s how one can pretend to be a thing, and it can maybe for some thoughtful people be a path to understanding how others feel. Pretending to have a physical handicap and then trying to navigate the physical world for instance can be an eye-opener. It’s funny how pretending to be a woman doesn’t seem to work that way at all.

Anyway. My main dispute is with “we are affected by all the same stuff.” No we’re not, asshole, and saying we are is such a dudely thing to say. Men are not affected by menstruation, pregnancy, childbirth, systematic preference for men in most occupations, being smaller and less muscular, having less sonorous voices, and I could go on this way for hours. No, men who dress up as women are NOT affected by all the same stuff, and this claim that they are is why the whole “trans women are women” campaign is such a fucking insult.

The DoJ objects.

Donald Trump’s lawyers are causing “irreparable harm” to the government and public by delaying the investigation into his hoarding of highly classified documents at his Florida mansion, the US Department of Justice said.

Trump and his lawyers of course couldn’t possibly care less. Causing harm is Trump’s raison d’être.

The claim came in a strongly worded court filing urging a district judge, Aileen Cannon, to reconsider her ruling last week granting Trump’s request for an independent “special master” in the case.

Any bets? No, nobody is going to throw their money away on that one.

This is bizarre.

Huge queues are forming along the banks of the River Thames, as people wait to pay their respects to the Queen.

…

The UK government has published a live queue tracker for people to follow on YouTube. Currently the queue is more than two miles long and the back of the queue is now past London Bridge.

TWO. MILES. LONG.

People queuing are being warned they will need to stand for many hours – possibly overnight – with little opportunity to sit down, as the queue will be constantly moving.

The maximum length of the queue is 10 miles – with 6.9 miles from Westminster to Southwark, and a three-mile zigzag queue in Southwark Park.

So why would anyone want to do that? The end goal is a box. It’s not tea with the queen, it’s not a glimpse of the queen from a distance, it’s not being in a crowd cheering the queen up on the balcony, it’s a box. Why would anyone join a two mile long queue just to walk past a box?

Especially since it’s not all that hard to get glimpses of royals anyway, if that’s your thing.

The futility of arguing with people who believe in nonsense: Michael Gibbon KC, Counsel for Mermaids, asking questions of Bev Jackson of LGBA:

MG: Only a few questions left. Turn to disagreement with Mr Nicholson. He gave evidence that LGBA denigrated people and organisations that support trans rights.

BJ: yes that was his evidence. 

MG: People were invited to make donations in Nicolson’s name, April 2021. See eg tweets here, by LGBA. Thank a JE for donation, she calls Nicolson a misogynist homophobe. Not a sensible thing to do. 

BJ: Agree not sensible, would say mischievous. We were exasperated by his abuse of us. I believe a couple of people donated in his name and we then mentioned this and encouraged. I agree not very sensible. Was light-hearted.

MG: I would say inflammatory.
BJ: DIsagree, because JN had abused us first.
MG: There is a chronology by Mr Hewitt but not put to JN bcs after his evidence.
BJ: Not so; it had been written up long before that.

MG: Not put to JN.

BJ: He had every opportunity to do so, was published openly.

I don’t know what that part means.

MG: JN was the object of this, his evidence must be preferred?

BJ: No, we were the object of JN’s abuse.

MG: I restate, inflammatory – not mischievous or light-hearted. 

I say JN is correct, he was bombarded by abuse because of LGBA encouragement.

BJ: Completely disagree. 

Honestly. Poor poor John Nicolson, the venomous abusive rude MP who shouts at lesbians who don’t agree that men are women.

MG: Again re JN – page 1290.

Begins “Dear Boris”. Second paragraph – says would you would be surprised to hear lesbians are harassed & accused of transphobia if they refuse sex with male bodies if they “identify” as women. I say, prejudicial language by not saying “trans”
BJ: Not sure what you mean
MG: should have said trans women.

Oh there it is – you’re not allowed to say they’re men who identify as women, you have to say trans women.

BJ: I think our language is clearer. Many people think “trans woman” means someone has had surgery, no penis, so our language is clearer. 

MG: why quotes round “identifies as”? 

BJ: because “identifies as” isn’t clear, it is jargon.
MG: you are saying TW are men.
BJ: no am saying transwomen are transwomen. It is clearer.

And besides, “trans women” are men.

It’s so religion-like, so theocratic, this forcing people to lie about reality.

MG: You say LGBA is not a single issue org. I say it is, the single issue is gender-critical, opposing gender identity ideology

BJ: Disagree

MG: only purpose of LGBA.

BJ: Disagree completely.

In a way it seems foolish for Michael Gibbon to press this point, because it amounts to saying lesbians and gay men can’t have anything just for lesbians and gay men, it’s saying they have to team with trans people in everything. I’m not sure that take is as popular as he (or Mermaids) thinks it is.

The Scottish Daily Express reports on the John Nicolson testimony n backlash:

SNP MP John Nicolson has been branded a “liar” and a “misogynist” for his contribution to an official hearing challenging the status of same-sex attraction charity, LBG Alliance.

The gay rights advocates separated from the likes of Stonewall over a belief that lesbian, gay and bisexual people had different needs than transgender-identified people but now face accusations of transphobia and “hate”.

It’s not “hate” to say that people can’t magically become something they’re not. I still can’t get used to the fact that so many adults are insisting so furiously and often that men can become women.

[I]t was a statement during cross-examination, about same-sex-attracted women that enranged campaigners. He said, “You are a lesbian, if you declare yourself one”. A comment deemed homophobic by lesbians who believe you must be a biological woman to be a lesbian and who say they face abuse for asserting a transwoman is not a lesbian.

It’s deemed homophobic by non-lesbians too. It’s also deemed absurd, childish, credulous, superstitious – just generally bizarre and not fit for adult discourse.

“These silly games may be all very well for Twitter, but hurling insults and unsubstantiated accusations is not appropriate in court. Mr Nicolson may have been lulled by his party leader turning a blind eye to his bullying and his misogyny, but it hardly made for an edifying spectacle”, said For Women Scotland.

I don’t think they’re all very well for Twitter, either, not from an MP.

She thinks all this is a joke.

Oh, hell.

So what that means is that men who claim to “identify as” women must be housed with women, but women who simply are women have no right to be housed exclusively with women. Men must be forced on women and women must not refuse or reject or resist.

It’s just a brazen lie that letting male students invade women’s sports “in no way” disadvantages the girls whose sports they invade. How could that possibly be true? How could senators be that stupid? Or do I just mean misogynist?

In the afternoon it was Bev Jackson’s turn. MG is Michael Gibbon KC, Counsel for Mermaids.

MG: You say here, do LGBA sometimes avoid saying “trans” at all and you say yes because it often overshadows discussion of LGB rights. So we are left to deduce what LBGA thinks re trans from other things you say. Eg male bodied for transwomen. 

BJ: Yes we have to – unfortunate we have to say “male bodied”, some people would simply to prefer to say “men”. We are asked constantly why we had to form, why no trans, already lots of LGBT orgs. We have had to have position from the start.

In other words there’s been a lot of “how dare you start a new organization and especially one that’s not inclooooosive of trans people?!”

MG: We have to make deductions from absence of T in your name. From you not saying “trans” much.

BJ: Many many orgs worldwide started as LGB; we felt that was getting lost; it never occurred to us we’d have to deal re trans because LBG is getting lost. 

MG: Deliberate choice to exclude.

BJ: No this is wrong. There is no Q or + or anything else either in our name, only LGB. This is a group with its own needs.

It makes me hop up and down with rage, that kind of thing. People are allowed to talk and organize and campaign on lesbian and gay issues. It’s that simple. They’re allowed to do that. There is no law that says they can’t talk about that unless they also talk about trans issues. It’s grotesque and intrusive to call not talking about a different (and often hostile) group of people a “deliberate choice to exclude.” Women get to talk about women’s issues; that’s not a “deliberate choice to exclude,” it’s just talking about a particular subject.

MG: V offensive to LGB people who don’t share your GC views, and to trans people, to be called homophobes.

V offensive to LGB people who do share their GC views, and to trans people ditto, to be called transphobic.

Are we square? Are we square?

BJ: Need to say first, we support trans rights in Equality Act, protection from discrimination etc. We don’t accept that people can change sex. Some people may be offended, sure; we are offended that men can declare themselves lesbians. 

MG: You are calling LGB people homophobes. Very offensive.

BJ: I am Jewish and have been called anti-semitic. But we have to be able to tell the truth, and it seems to me that at present lesbians are more marginalised than trans people. 

Especially, I would say, male trans people. (I wonder what accounts for the difference, if there is such a difference. It’s a puzzle.)

Lindsey Graham opens a new front in the war on women:

Senator Lindsey Graham has unveiled his proposed nationwide abortion ban, which would outlaw the procedure after 15 weeks, with certain exceptions.

Not something that will ever ruin Lindsey Graham’s life. Women? Well that’s another story.

Graham said the proposal, dubbed the “Protecting Pain-Capable Unborn Children from Late-Term Abortions Act”, would match similar laws in European countries. He said the 15-week threshold is when fetuses will feel pain, however that doesn’t quite match the science. Many scientists say fetuses can’t feel pain before 24 weeks, although the subject is complicated and continuing to be researched.

And anyway what does it mean to “feel pain” at that stage of development? Is a 15 week fetus conscious enough to register pain?

And what about the pain the woman experiences while pushing out the baby? Why does the notional pain of a 15 week fetus trump the all too real and intense hours-long pain of a grown woman?

From the afternoon session. I don’t see a thread reader yet so I’ll just quote from tweets directly.

Discussions around ‘born in the wrong body’ narrative. BB explains terms have evolved but some T ppl still use it. KM – Ed Dept published guidance not to use. You made a statement following this you wouldn’t promote that narrative.

BB: I have no recollection of this guidance being the reason though. Was emerging discussion. If so we managed to respond v quickly.

KM: would you have been involved in consultation on DoE guidance?

BB: dont know

KM: met with civil servants / ministers involved?

BB: would like to, don’t know in this case

KM reading through the guidance. If LGBA were to have criticised the narrative born in wrong body that would not have been problematic?

BB: complicated. DoE is guidance not fact on lived reality of trans people’s lives. It seems ok as guidance to me but some trans people use the term.

The “lived reality of trans people’s lives” she refers to is the “born in the wrong body” fairy tale. “Lived reality” in this sort of context translates to “lived fantasy.”

Fantasy can be very important in people’s lives, and can also be healthy and enriching and so on. But it needs to be recognized as fantasy, not translated into “lived reality.”

KM moving on to LGBA schools material. LGBA dont think children should be confused or upset by ideology, agree?

BB: not the way we would speak about this issue to kids

KM: But reflects what Cass found that we need to be careful

BB: I think Cass didn’t use the word ideology

Ah yes, you don’t like that word, do you. But it is an ideology. It’s not just a Big Box of Facts.

KM: used belief. moving on – if child isn’t gender conforming shouldn’t lead educator to say trans

BB: agree not appropriate

KM: A GNC child eg girl who plays football might well be led to think trans …

BB: No this is section 28, being trans is not easy, implausible.

Is it though? With all the frantic valorization and sympathy going on? Is it really implausible that young teenagers would start calling themselves trans in this climate?

KM: Template letter here about RSE guidance and ‘what we cannot accept that children should be taught can be Born In The Wrong Body’.

BB: I can’t believe that was being taught.

Why not?

More from John Nicolson testimony:

KM – referring to assertion of extensive political campaigning of LGBA. Is that the right place for them to go?

JN – yes, but they should be doing some charitable work as well. They are only doing lobbying. I have yet to see an example of their charitable works.
KM – we will hear about that when they give their evidence so you don’t need to worry about that. Now reviewing the correspondence. You refer to their lobbying – are these appropriate avenues to be lobbying.
JN – yes, but they need to be doing some charitable people. Kemi Badenoch in particular was not an appropriate person to be holding the Equality brief, given her gay rights voting record.

I have no idea what that has to do with the question, but it seems KM does.

KM – but they are the appropriate offices and departments to be lobbying,

JN – yes.

KM – going on to ask about JN’s tweets and evidence that LGBA attacks and denigrates others on social media. Tweet sent by JN on 15 April, linking a documentary, commending it 

JN – yes a constituent
KM – goes on to a response from JN that refers to LGBA as sinister.
JN – on that night I got a deluge of abuse from supporters of LGBA and many DMs.
KM – go back to the question, that was the first engagement with LGBA. 

He got a deluge of abuse. What about the abusiveness of an MP calling a lesbian/gay organization “sinister”?

JN – they whip up their supporters and hide behind them, it’s no conspiracy, you can search Twitter and find it.

KM – you describe a group you have had no engagement with at all as ‘sinister’, at 1 am.

JN – perfectly seemly to tweet this.

Really? Perfectly seemly? No problem at all, not even slight? I beg to differ.

The stuff that LGBA then tweets abuse at me. One of their directors has continued obsessively tweeting about me. I have never commented on an individual at LGBA. They impersonated a member of parliament.

KM – That is all I have.
J – any questions from IS

IS – you said that 20% of LGBA supporters are lesbians.
What is your evidence of that.
JN – referring to previous case where Stonewall won, saying that evidence showed only 20% of members are lesbians, have been thrown off two largest fund raising platforms, many off shore followers, tiny accounts.
IS – goes back to campaign documents. Which did you think were worse?
JN – press pause was obviously seen by LGBA as too benign. So they went on to ‘green light to predators’ to get people to read the article. 

Again, it’s interesting that all he can see is the putative harshness of “green light to predators” – that he doesn’t pause for a second to consider the possible truth of the claim. Maybe throwing women’s spaces open to men is in fact a green light to predators. No skin off his nose, he’s not a woman.

JN – The idea that the FM of Scotland a life long feminist with a gender balanced cabinet would do anything to harm women and children is laughable.

IS – anything other comments?

JN – designed to elicit fear, scare women and children, straight from the Clause 28 playbook. 

Yes but what if the source of the fear is real?

Next up is Dr. Belinda Bell, chair of Mermaids.

KM – let’s discuss gender dysphoria. The easiest way to deal with it is through the Cass Review. I’m sure you’re aware of the Cass Review. Undertaken by NHS England, there has been an interim report by Dr. Cass.
BB – just to be absolutely clear, I am not a medical doctor.
KM – obviously
BB – the Cass Review is not in MM area. We do not do medical stuff, we don’t treat dysphoria.
KM – MM supports youth with dysphoria, many of your participants are either referred to GIDS, or are on a medical pathway.
BB – again, we are not a medical organisation.

What is “gender dysphoria” if it’s not medical? Is it psychological? Is there a neat split between psychological and medical?

KM – Dr Cass criticisms of GIDS.

BB – many critical of GIDS inability to serve patients.

KM – Cass critical of many of the concepts, not so much the service capacity. Cass is exploring what gender dysphoria means. I’m exploring this because you said that is one of your areas of focus.
BB – some of our children have gender identity issues, some may have dysphoria. 

KM – directing BB to witness statement, gender dysphoria is one of most important area of focus.
BB – yes.
KM – reading out comments and concerns from interim Cass Review, a clinician may have a position and that impacts their approach.
BB – you said believe, it is position. Belief is a loaded word.

So is “gender dysphoria.”

Jumping ahead:

KM – is it reasonable to be concerned about this treatment given this lack of data?

BB – yes a parent might be concerned about puberty blockers but also about a child about to undergo ‘wrong’ puberty.

But then, Mermaids itself encourages the belief that there is such a thing as “the wrong puberty,” and that it’s not a very rare brain glitch but a quite common body glitch that’s easy to correct via blockers.

KM – so LGBA has an evidence base to be concerned about the lack of evidence? 

BB – we don’t give health care advice, and I would expect that given the difficulty in this area, any charity would be very careful in focusing on this area and would need deep specialism.

So Mermaids is very careful in this area?

Really?

KM – now moving on to consequences (lack of fertility) and (stunted penile growth)

BB – are you asking if I have a comment?
KM – are you saying that you have no experience and no concern with the treatment pathway etc that children are put on? If so, I can stop my questions and ask the Tribunal to read the review.
BB – MM meets with GIDS about once a year but I can’t tell what point is appropriate to prescribe puberty blockers.
KM – are you accepting that LGBA has an evidentiary basis for their concern about the treatment of dysphoric youth?
BB – explains that puberty blockers are a pause button, and once off, puberty starts.

Wrong. Wrong wrong wrong. I guess this is Mermaids being “very careful”?

KM – I will ask again, do you disagree that it is unreasonable for an LGBA charity to worry about what is happening to lesbian girls?

BB – it is too specialised and technical for them.

But it’s not too specialised and technical for Mermaids. Why is that? Why is it that Mermaids is competent to advise teenagers to meddle with their puberties but LGBA is not competent to advise them not to meddle with their puberties?

They broke for lunch at that point.

John Nicolson MP is the witness today. KM is Karon Monaghan KC – Counsel for LGB Alliance.

KM – outlining the panel, fairly stringent requirements

Now going on to proposed reforms. 

KM – may apply for a GRC if 16,
JN – you can vote in Scotland at 16 that is the motivation
The use of the word child is ’emotive’ and that person has adult responsibilities.
KM – Legally ‘child’
JN – You would agree that a child is not allowed to vote
KM – I’m not here to answer your questions.

JN – repeats point. Then can we agree ‘young adult’.
KM – I will say child.
JN – I will say young adult.

Naturally. Words are magic; that’s the whole point. A man is a woman if he says he is; a kid of 16 is an adult if John Nicolson MP says she is. Meanwhile whatever you call the person age 16, the reality is that her brain is still a work in progress, and people her age are not generally fully equipped to make drastic decisions that will change the course of their lives for the next 50 years or more.

KM – brief discussion of interim vs full GRC (to do with persons who are married)

KM – prepare a declaration, born in Scotland, lived in your acquired gender for 3 months, intend to live in acquired gender. That is all. That is a fundamental change is it not? 

JN – the objective is to make it easier and less intrusive.
KM – and highly controversial

There are some things that shouldn’t be made easier and less intrusive for very young people. Driving a car for instance. Drinking gin. Owning a gun. Getting married. Having babies.

It seems John Nicolson talks too fast and not always on topic.

(Struggling to keep up with JN responses to KM questions)

JN – explains his role on parliament committee, and overwhelming support for LGBTQ persons.

KM – asks JN to focus on questions and answer them, interrupting JN to do so.

KM – (back to question) 

KM – asking the question again, ‘it is a model that is usually called self id or self declaration’
JN – yes
KM – it sets the bar lower for changing sex
JN – lower is an emotive word. Less intrusive is better.
KM – the concern is that it will erode sex based rights. 

Sir, sir, “less intrusive” is also emotive. It’s not the emo you object to, it’s the direction of emo. You want to direct the emo your way: in the direction of “being trans is awesome and teenagers should be encouraged to embrace it in every aspect.”

KM – when a person does not have a GRC they can be excluded from a single sex service with a lower bar. Do you understand that? 

JN – I understand that those without a GRC can be excluded.
KM – so getting a GRC is an important thing.
JN – It is such an important thing for someone who is born into the wrong body, that’s why it is such an important progressive piece of legislation. 

There’s no such thing as being born into the wrong body. That’s a fairy tale; it’s an absurd thing for adults to be invoking with a straight face.

KM – perhaps I will have to take you to what MM and the DoE say about the wrong body narrative.

JN – what do you mean narrative. It is their lived experience.

Oh good god.

KM – do you understand the view of LGBA is that sex matters and that this reform will undermine sex based rights. 

JN – I know that LGBA has expressed extreme views and tweeted abuse at me, calling me a pedophile and a rapist enabler.
KM – I do not believe there is one piece of evidence before the tribunal that supports that.
JN – of course they have, and it is a minority view.

KM – you understand that individuals are entitled to campaign and comment on matters in the public domain.
JN – refers to section 28 period, abuse in public, free speech.
KM – so I take it you agree that members of the public and civil society are allowed to comment. 

There’s some quarreling, during which the judge tells Nicolson to answer the questions.

KM – sorry, I meant, it is reasonable for them to express this view.

JN – yes, but some of things they express in this document are expressly false. Especially ‘danger to children’.

KM – I will come on to that. ‘Believe in respectful polite debate’. Nothing problematic there? 

JN – except its a very coy statement and it runs counter to how they are campaigning.
KM – are you saying there are hidden messages?
JN – they don’t want their supporters submissions to be rejected because they are aggressive
KM – next page sets out current position. 

JN – implies that people are whimsical in their decision to change their gender,
KM – says it will be much easier and become automatic
JN – you say easier but it is incredibly traumatic to change your gender.
KM – and access risk, with a GRC you can access spaces. 

Wait. It’s incredibly traumatic to change your gender, but young teenagers should be completely free to do it. Isn’t it possible that the incredibly traumatic part is a reason not to let children make irreversible changes to their developing bodies?

Skipping ahead a bit –

KM – do you agree that sex based rights are at risk?

JN – and I’m going to completely disagree.

KM – a male that gets a GRC, and is a heterosexual, does that make that person a lesbian? 

JN – I just do not understand this obsession with people’s genitalia, LGBA appears to think about nothing else from the moment they get up in the morning until they go to bed at night.

He talks like a Twitter jockey, not an MP.

KM – do you accept that changes in legislation should be debated and discussed in the public domain.

JN – ‘this will allow predatory men’, straight out of the Section 28 playbook, debate needs to be respectful, truthful and not hurtful.
KM – you accept that this is discussing men, all men, not gay men.
JN – men don’t need a GRC to access women’s spaces and they do it now. Nobody in my experience goes to M&S and is asked to prove their gender.

So blithely unconcerned with what women might worry about.

KM – you understand why there are women only spaces?

JN – I understand that lots of women do not want to be naked in front of men in public spaces.

KM – do you respect that ?

JN – I have always and will always respect that.

KM – do you understand that women are concerned that predatory men will use a GRC in order to access women’s spaces?
JN – Predatory men is scare mongering and no evidence from other jurisdictions that this is happening, there is no ‘epidemic’.

He will always respect that, except of course when he doesn’t.

KM – do you respect the views of women who worry about this?

JN – I always respect minority views.

Hey! We’re not a minority!

KM – do you respect their concerns?

JN – yes.

KM – this advertisement is not aggressive and uses measured terms.

JN – it dogwhistles aggression towards trans people and LGBA are whipping up fear and trepidation. Scaremongering, deeply offensive. 

So that’s a no.

JN – they are linking predators to transpeople, that is prejudicial.

KM – they are linking men to predators.

JN – prejudicial to transpeople.

KM – looking at these documents to see if we see anything aggressive. Making observations about sport, hospitals, GIDS and the impact of maligning lesbians who are concerned about this as transphobic. You profoundly disagree with LGBA and there is nothing problematic about that.
JN – full of false statements, untruths, scaremongering, trans people do not simply grow up to be gay.

KM – Have you read the Cass Review?
JN – I have read a short summary.
KM – asking for a break.
JN – I have other duties, we are 90 minutes in and we haven’t yet discussed their charitable duties.
KM – if the witness would answer the question we could finish more quickly 

They took a break at that point, so I’ll end the post here.

Mermaids reports on the first day of the tribunal:

Paul Roberts, CEO of LGBT+ Consortium, gave evidence in support of Mermaids.

LGB Alliance’s legal team cross-examined Mr Roberts on his Witness Statement for several hours, and under intense questioning, he was clear that Consortium’s view is that trans women are women, trans men are men, and trans people belong in the LGBT community.

The tribunal also ruled in favour of publishing documents relevant to the case, including skeleton arguments and witness statements.

That’s it. That’s the sum total of their reporting. One of the martyrs was questioned for hours but he stuck fast to the dogma.

Not to mention the circularity of “trans people belong in the LGBT community.” Let’s start at the beginning, shall we? The “community” is lesbian, gay and bisexual people. If you add a T then you’re talking about a different “community.” Many people in the LGB community don’t agree that it has to be incloosive of T people, and consider it forced teaming. The issue is not whether trans people belong in the LGBT community but whether they belong in the LGB community.

Originally a comment by Your Name’s not Bruce? on Incredibly diverse and incredibly intersectional.

AR – what I am putting to you is that it is reasonable for you to hold that trans women are women and for LGBA to say that they are not.

PR – they are transphobic and focus on trans phobic activities.

AR – gender critical views are transphobic views?

PR – yes.

AR – you don’t think that anyone that has gender critical views should be running a charity in the LGBT sector.

PR – I don’t believe that any charity that is campaigning to remove the rights of trans people to live their lives safely and fully, should be allowed to exist.

AR – despite the fact that gender critical views are protected under the Equality Act.

PR – I’m not an expert.

BOOM!.. as he runs at full speed into the Forestater decision.

I think the crux of the matter is going to be the need to demonstrate how not including trans in LGBA is somehow “campaigning to remove the rights of trans people to live their lives safely and fully.” How does simply not including trans issues in their remit harm trans people? If being lesbian, gay, or bisexual is completely different from being trans, then there is no reason that trans “inclusion” should be a requirement. Even if it was not completely different, is it not permitted for lesbian, gay and bisexual people to have organizations of their own? Trans activists seem to to think that they are a conjoined twin of the LGB “community”, and that somehow “excluding” them from everything that LGB people do is inherently unjust, cruel, and hurtful. Does that mean that each and every charity, whatever the cause, is “harming” trans people if they do not specifically include trans people in their mission statements? They’re going to be suing a lot of charities.

Trans activists aren’t very good at explaining their position at all. They’re more accustomed to compelling obedience than justifying their actions, and they are taken aback when they have to support their own position. Like all the online activists unable to quote instances of JKR’s “obvious” transphobia, when put to the test in situations they can’t avoid, the weakness and illogicality of the genderist position is painfully obvious. A skilled lawyer can get them to lay bare the inconsistencies and incoherence of trans claims for them. One might almost feel sorry for them as you read the transcripts, the pointed questions zeroing in on the empty ideas defended by empty rhetoric.

The initial success of the “NO DEBATE” strategy allowed for the swift capture of key institutions and organizations, but left them ill-prepared to defend their conquests once people woke up to what had happened. Having not needed to argue their case, they are now unable to do so. Like hormone blockers, “NO DEBATE” stunted the movement’s reasoning and argumentation, leaving it with nothing but bullying and intimidation with which to respond. Combine this with the forced teaming with LGB, and you get the effects of both authoritarian inflexibility and intransigence, along with a dependency which has prevented them from arguing their corner and growing the fuck up to stand on their own.

Ah so this is yer man –

He “leads to ensure Consortium stays community focussed and LGBT+ issues are listened to by a range of stakeholders…”

But that’s not true, is it. He doesn’t lead to ensure LGB issues are listened to by a range of stakeholders; very much the opposite. He’s shockingly ignorant on some of them, and shockingly hostile to some of them. He’s all about the T; he’s very much not all about the L.

Nice work if you can get it.

Next installment:

AR: moving on. You complained about a tweet by Bev Jackson who observed that female lesbians are being driven off lesbian dating apps. If you are told by the people running the site that you cannot specify that you only want to meet female bodied people you are being denied service by the dating site based on your sexual orientation.

PR – I’m not on these sites and not a woman.

He’s not a trans woman, either, but that certainly doesn’t stop him advocating for their purported rights to the detriment of other people’s rights.

AR – you complained about this tweet, so I hope you can answer some questions. 

PR – yes
AR – Do you agree that those lesbians are being denied service based on sexuality?
PR – I believe that dating site is interpreting the Equality Act in the same way as I do, to be inclusive of trans women.
AR – let go back to the Stonewall definitions. Is it reasonable that a woman could be kicked off a lesbian dating site for that preference?
PR – The service is inclusive of transwomen.

AR – the definition of trans includes cross dressers. Does a lesbian have the right to exclude male cross dressers from her dating pool? 

PR – if the service is inclusive, then a transwoman should be able to use that service.

AR – you are not focusing on the question. A woman is kicked off a dating site for specifying that she is only interested in female bodies. Is that reasonable? 

PR – trans women should be able to access that service.
AR – we are not talking about trans women. We are talking about is it reasonable for lesbians to exclude men from their dating pool.
PR – back to trans women.
AR – it is clear that this is an example of a conflict between the rights of LGB people and trans people.
PR – there is no such conflict.
AR – We are talking about lesbians being excluded from lesbian dating services.
PR – back to trans women, they have a right to use those services and not be excluded. This is trans exclusion. 

No, it’s men exclusion from lesbian dating sites. It’s staggeringly rapey to keep insisting “trans women” have a right to use lesbian dating services.

AR – what I am putting to you is that it is reasonable for you to hold that trans women are women and for LGBA to say that they are not. 

PR – they are transphobic and focus on trans phobic activities.
AR – gender critical views are transphobic views?
PR – yes.
AR – you don’t think that anyone that has gender critical views should be running a charity in the LGBT sector?

R – I don’t believe that any charity that is campaigning to remove the rights of trans people to live their lives safely and fully, should be allowed to exist.
AR – despite the fact that gender critical views are protected under the Equality Act.
PR – I’m not an expert. 

But I understand that there is a difference between expressing those beliefs and holding those beliefs. And trying to remove the rights of trans people to live their lives.

What about the rights of lesbian people to live their lives?

AR – I will put it to you that you have created an echo chamber with no diversity of thought. 

PR – I absolutely disagree, our sector is incredibly diverse and incredibly intersectional.
AR – no further questions.

The whole thing is incredible.

More Tribunal:

(I’m not sure if this is the next ReaderApp thread in the sequence or a third for the day.)

AR – we are talking about material that children might use to decide whether to go on to a medical pathway.

PR – I disagree, our members are providing helpful materials to young people struggling with their identity.
AR – a young person wouldn’t look at these words and attempt to figure out their identity.
PR – It’s a very complex area, lots of organisations working in this area helping young people.
AR – lets go back to the definitions. Gender identity is about whether you instinctively relate to the gender stereotypes of your sex 

PR – I feel like you’re forcing me into dictionary definitions.

So Paul Roberts wants “trans” and “gender identity” to be undefined? That’s what he’s going with? But everyone has to be “inclusive” of it despite not knowing what it is?

AR – I asked you earlier if you agreed with these definitions and you said yes.

PR – there are so many nuances here and its a complex area. These are Stonewall’s definitions. 

There are so many nuances and it’s a complex area but everyone must act as if it’s clearly defined and absolutely mandatory.

How’s that working out?

They talk about the Gingerbread person, with PR being as steadily evasive as ever.

AR – its not a stretch to relate the number of gay children being referred to GIDS to this notion that they are born in the wrong body. 

PR – I disagree.
AR – what is happening is when a young person identifies as trans they are immediately affirmed as trans.
PR – I disagree. Affirmation is giving the room to explore.

Uh, no, affirmation is affirmation. It’s the opposite of room to explore. It’s a box.

AR – Do you agree that it is reasonable for LGBA to be concerned about the schools campaign?

PR – I disagree. Young people are being given access to information, the materials are about exploring their identity.

What does “exploring their identity” mean? Why is it something schools are promoting? Why is “identity” being treated as coterminous with gender and gender alone? In what sense is the Gingerbread Person “information”?

AR – as a result of this information, a 4000% increase in girls, who are 70% non-heterosexual, being referred to GIDS. This LGBA campaign is entirely legitimate.

PR – I disagree. They are preventing trans people from exploring their identity. 

How does PR know the trans people he mentions are in fact trans people? How does he know that’s a real category? How does he know it’s not a fad, aka a social contagion?

AR – referring to single sex services. Women at risk 

PR – yes, single sex services.
AR – we agree that the Eq Act provides for single sex services.
PR – a mention of single sex services including trans women.
AR – but let’s look at why: strength and men’s tendency towards violence against women. PR – I’m not an expert, I don’t know if men are stronger or the statistics on male violence.

He doesn’t know if men are stronger.

There aren’t enough eyerolls in the universe.

AR – you don’t accept that men are stronger and more prone to violence.

PR – I don’t have those statistics. I’m not an expert.
AR – we exclude all male bodies because we have no way to distiniguish. between the overwhelming number of men who are not violent and those who are.
PR – I can’t answer this without thinking about vulnerable transwomen.

He can’t answer a question about male violence against women without thinking about men in dresses. Misogyny on stilts.

He won’t like that.

International guests are said to have been asked to travel on commercial flights and forbidden to use helicopters or private cars to reach the [Queen’s] funeral. They are to arrive together on a bus from a site in west London, Politico said, citing official documents.

Westminster Abbey is expected to be so full that only one representative from each country can attend, although they can be joined by their signficant other.

Questions have been asked in the US over whether the former president, Donald Trump, would be invited but British sources have scotched the idea that he could accompany the US delegation and said there would not be space for Biden’s predecessors. The former US president Dwight Eisenhower attended Churchill’s funeral, but in a private capacity.

They worked intensely together preparing for D-Day.

Bets on Trump trying to crash the funeral?