Go to the mating center and turn right
I saw this cited as a useful source for explanation of “gender identity” and all that: Transgender Identity Formation. In it I read this claim:
Biological
We are just beginning to understand the various aspects of the biological components of who and what we are, and how they interact.
In an invited paper published in the December 2001 issue of Neuroendocrinology Letters, Dr. Gunter Dorner and his colleagues outlined two probable causes of transsexualism that fall into two general categories: 1) genetic enzyme mutations and 2) epigenetic effects which can include stressful prenatal situations and fetal exposure to endocrine disruptors i.e. the breakdown products of DDT (DDE which is estrogenic in nature).
Gender and sexual brain organization is dependent on estrogen and androgen hormone levels occurring during specific and critical developmental periods. “Sex centers” responsible for gonadotropin secretion are organized by estrogens, “mating centers” controlling sexual orientation are organized by androgens and estrogens. “Gender role centers”, responsible for gender role behavior are organized by androgens (Dörner et al., 1987). The organization periods for sex-specific gonadotropin secretion, sexual orientation, and gender role behavior are overlapping, but not identical. Therefore almost infinite variations of gender and sexual orientation are possible.
Did you catch it?
“Gender role centers”, responsible for gender role behavior are organized by androgens.
What? People are claiming there are biological “gender role centers” now? Meaning, presumably, in the brain? So there are parts of the brain that deal with gender roles? So gender roles are part of the structure of the brain? Not “gender” itself, not “gender identity,” but gender roles? Golly, who knew? It’s actually a physical part of the brain that girls like dolls and boys like mud and women like to wear stilettos.
So feminism was all just a big mistake, then, like a political movement advocating the right of humans to fly like birds.
I saw today that Johns Hopkins is in hot water with Human Rights Campaign because they refuse to disavow a medical school faculty member who questions the orthodoxy of biological basis of gender identity, appropriateness of medical intervention for trans children, and so on. It’s hard to piece together what is actually going on; the faculty member may also be anti-gay. HRC smooshes a lot of concepts together.
My Uni library doesn’t seem to go back that far (2001? That’s gotta be ancient history in a field like this), so I can’t read the paper. Charitably, there might be brain centers that control to what degree we spontaneously wish to imitate those with a similar sexual physiology to us, in the course of maturation. The specific content of that would be, of course, cultural (sort of like how we have a chunk of brain devoted to language, but *which* language depends on your social environment). The implication of this paper would be that people (for whatever reason) vary considerably in how strong that tendency is (and in some cases, apparently, may even go the other way).
The whole subject strikes me as a massive can o’ worms.
It’s a massive can of bullshit, is what it is. A massive can of old bullshit repackaged as something new.
Something tells me that Josh is a tad sceptical; cynical even (I’ve always had a knack of picking up clues too subtle for most).
Brain plasticity, interacting with environment, is being ignored SO HARD by people who are determined to say gender identity is innate from birth.
I had a look at the 1987 paper on Google Scholar. It’s about developmental biology and the sensitivity of some brain structures to androgens and estrogen during development, with reported correlations to homosexuality and to transsexuality in adults. I.e. the “gender roles” being talked about are about sexuality and transsexuality not about “girls like pink”. I don’t know if it’s being used correctly in the citing text.
‘People are claiming there are biological “gender role centers” now?’
Well, ONE person was claiming that 16 years ago, in ONE paper.
I’m not even sure what an ‘invited’ paper really is. I have a deep suspicion that it’s one without all that silly peer review and replicability in it.
^John, are you familiar with Male Brains and Female Brains? And Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus? They may not specifically mention a gender role ‘center’, but there are many people who believe and claim scientific basis for gender roles being determined in the brain.
I was raised that way. Funny thing is, I never believed it. Everyone else in my family does, but I’m sort of the black sheep (baaa).
Male and female brains are just a fact of life, but that doesn’t imply a ‘gender centre’ in the brain, although such a thing isn’t an outlandish impossibility either.
Not so much. After all, more females apparently have the brain deemed “male” than the brain deemed “female”. Some men have “female” brains. So how is it a female brain? Brains are a fact of life. Differences in brains are a fact of life. Male and female brains are built around suspect science.
Steve @ 2 –
Interesting. That’s what Kevin Kirkpatrick has been arguing for here: that gender can be understood as that spontaneous wish to imitate those with a similar sexual physiology to us.
Two (at least) problems still remain even if there are scientifically significant physical brain differences between “males” and “females” – however one is defining those terms:
1) Clearly some brain characteristics are as a result of genetic factors. Based on animal models, there is also evidence that epigenetics and ingested chemicals may have effects as well. However, it’s also worth noting that brain structure is also heavily influenced by learning and behaviour.
2) It’s important to note that even if there are clear sex and/or gender differences between average measures of brain characteristics, there is always significant overlap in every measure, and the differences *between the averages* are much smaller than the differences in each group. (And I suspect that this will remain true even if that stats are measured with transgender people are placed into the group to which they have transitioned.)