Brandish that crucifix
Andrew Brown seems to have taken a Michael Ruse pill (may cause drowsiness, perversity of reasoning, tendonitis, irregular heartbeat).
The decision of the European court of Human Rights that Italian schools may continue to display a crucifix in the classroom is obviously a victory for common sense, of which only fanatics would disapprove.
Oh obviously; oh only fanatics, certainly. (What was that about gnu atheist rhetoric and lack of humility again?)
The idea that human rights legislation should be used to prevent children from being exposed to a crucifix is a profoundly totalitarian and superstitious perversion of one of our civilisation’s best inventions.
Well yes, it would be, but that isn’t the idea in question. Oddly enough, nobody was attempting to prevent children from being exposed to a crucifix. That would be quite a tall order, and would involve forcibly keeping children out of churches as well as off the streets, out of shops and museums, away from people – it would involve a quite remarkable program of visual isolation. What a good thing it is that that’s not the issue. The idea, of course, was to prevent the state from imposing a crucifix on children in state schools. That is a more limited ambition, do admit.
So Andrew renders his piece worthless at the outset, by misrepresenting the issue. What’s the point of that? Hooray, he says, the fanatics can’t do what they were trying to do – but they weren’t trying to do that and they aren’t fanatics, so what exactly is Andrew’s point?
And if a secularist is able to protest against the presence of a crucifix in a classroom on the grounds that it breaches her children’s human rights, why shouldn’t a Muslim bring a lawsuit against the V&A for displaying Christian imagery to her children when they are taken on school trips around it?
Because the two are different, for reasons that are too obvious for me to bother explaining. (Oh all right – a crucifix permanently stuck on a classroom wall is an endorsement, a teaching, an admonition; a trip to a museum is a different kind of thing altogether.)
The answer, of course, is that NSS thinks that secularist children – or the children of secularists, since it absolutely certain that no child is born a rationalist or secularist – have different and better rights to those of religious children, and especially Muslim children.
You may wonder how NSS got in there, and what it has to do with anything. I don’t know. It’s not that I omitted a previous bit where the NSS was mentioned or scolded; that’s its first appearance, out of nowhere. I think he meant “secularists in general” but accidentally turned that into “NSS” (without even the normal “the”). Bit of a King Charles’s head there, I’m afraid. At any rate – that’s crap. Secularism protects the rights of religious people. The ruling on the crucifix certainly does not protect the rights of Muslim children! Secularism would; this ruling does not – unless of course the idea is the odd one that Muslim children have a religious right to have a crucifix imposed on them in state school.
But it doesn’t follow from this argument that atheism is a privileged position that the state should teach and enforce. A theologically neutral state takes no position on the question of which gods exist, or, if you like, which conceptions of God (if any) correspond to reality.
But atheism isn’t the issue. Secularism isn’t atheism, and it is entirely possible, and indeed reasonable, for theists to be secularists for their own protection as well as that of other people. State neutrality on religion is not state atheism. That’s why I did a post a few months ago saying atheist schools would be a terrible idea.
Oh, Muslim kids definitely have the right to be warned: “This is our country; you’re an alien here and always will be”. I mean, that is what bullshit arguments about “history” and “heritage” always boil down to, isn’t it?
But, in the other post you linked to, Berlinerblau claims that new atheists believe that secularism = atheism. Are you trying to say the learned professor doesn’t know what he is talking about? He does have two PhDs – as if one wasn’t enough – and doesn’t this make him doubly qualified to criticize new atheists? He has no problem making snarky remarks about some religious believers making me curious to find out how one can determine if an individual’s religious beliefs are conservative enough to criticize. Also if crucifixes have no effect – which is also the claim for public prayers – then why raise such a big fuss about their removal? Their standards couldn’t be arbitrary, could they?
I know, and I would argue with Berlinerblau, but he’s so trashy I can’t be bothered.
Andrew Brown specializes in straw man construction. I am not sure whether he does it because he thinks his readers don’t know any better or whether he just thinks that having a go at atheists raises the average number of readers his articles get. Either option is a rather lowly ambition.
I was niggled by a comment at Andrew Brown’s CiF that I felt compelled to reply. Especially when it was coming form someone who said that there weren’t any crucifixes at her primary school and that it was not a big deal. i wanted to give a dissimilar view of crucifixes in the form of the Stations of the Cross.
Saxotelephone@ 23 March 2011 6:08PM
At my (Catholic) primary, we didn’t have crucifixes.
At my Primary only Roman Catholic Goldenbridge industrial school, not only did we have crucifixes, we also had three dimensional images of the Stations of the Cross, lined along the child prison school corridor (as well as in the chapel).
The three dimensional images of the almost naked, bloodied, crown of thorns head, and gushing bloodied torso side of the figure of Christ, half hanging on the Cross, certainly frightened and traumatised small ‘primary’ industrial school children. As the children were commonly forced to contemplate the Passion of Christ, not only during the Season of Lent, especially on Good Friday and on Friday evenings during Lent, but also during the course of the liturgical year.
The following language is not exactly conducive with healthy growing of primary school children, whose brains at this stage in their young lives absorb everything on a different level to adults.
1. Jesus is condemned to death. 2. Jesus is given his Cross. 3. Jesus falls the first time. 4. Jesus meets His Mother. 5. Simon of Cyrene carries the Cross. 6. Veronica wipes the face of Jesus. 7. Jesus falls for the second time. 8. Jesus meets the daughters of Jerusalem. 9. Jesus falls the third time. 10. Jesus is stripped of His garments. 11. Crucifixion: Jesus is nailed to the Cross. 12. Jesus dies on the Cross. 13. Jesus’ body is removed from the Cross. (Deposition or Lamentation) 14. Jesus is laid in the tomb and covered in incense.
I, for one. know countless survivors of industrial schools who had to get counselling help, as adults, because of this dangerous type of indoctrination, which indeed Richard Dawkins associates with a form of child abuse, which was foisted upon them as children.
The updated 2007 version doesn’t stand for too much either.
Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane,Jesus is betrayed by Judas and arrested,Jesus is condemned by the Sanhedrin,Jesus is denied by Peter,Jesus is judged by Pilate,Jesus is scourged and crowned with thorns,Jesus takes up His Cross,Jesus is helped by Simon to carry His Cross,Jesus meets the women of Jerusalem,Jesus is crucified,Jesus promises His kingdom to the repentant thief,Jesus entrusts Mary and John to each other,Jesus dies on the Cross,Jesus is laid in the tomb.
Do you honestly think this is appropriate language for small primary school children to have to read and contemplate on besides having to read all the gloomy bits in the missal appertaining to the crucifixion of Christ? I think its absolutely outrageous.
Have some credit for the less intelligent sensitive children who are gullible enough to believe what they see before them and suffer dreadfully as a consequence.
One could add to that: who needs those God awful motivational posters of someone looking out to sea and telling us that all we needed to succeed was to be ourselveswhen they have three dimensional horror images that could perfectly do the trick.
FWIW, in German “blau” (“blue”) is slang for “drunk.”
There’s an avalanche of stupid at the moment, which looks to deny the sort of testimony Marie-Thérèse O’ Loughlin delivers in #5. I cannot understand how these apologists sleep at night, knowing they’re working to perpetuate these harmful institutions.
John Pieret just posted a pointer to this delicious tidbit: http://blog.au.org/2011/03/23/the-italian-job-religious-right-lawyers-sell-out-minority-evangelicals-in-crucifix-case/
It is a terribly mixed-up article, hopping around and throwing ideas in in a strangely disconnected way. Like with the NSS reference, Brown mentions ‘the wilder excesses of American political life’ early on and never explains what he’s specifically referring to or indeed mentions it again. He seems especially muddled here:
But surely then a theologically neutral state wouldn’t say the symbol of a specific Christian denomination has special significance on the walls of classrooms? Is that not taking a position? As is often the case, the religious element is either a hindrance or an irrelevance: either the crucifix does have specific sectarian meaning, in which case it doesn’t belong unquestioningly on a public school classroom wall, or it has no meaning, in which case what’s the point of putting it there in the first place? The argument that it has broader cultural significance is tendentious at best: this isn’t a symbol of a dead belief system from the past or representative of universal secular values enshrined in the country’s constitution (like the Stars and Stripes, or Liberty, Equality, Fraternity); it is very much a live and divisive symbol of a specific way of thinking, and is thus highly contentious, regardless of whether a majority in a country happen to follow that system of thought – reasoned secular principles are there to transcend mob rule and make the playing field fair for all.
Argh. Eloquent point, M-T.
Childhood is so weird anyway. Even ordinary things can look scary or distorted or somehow wrong. Forcing that disgusting morbid garbage on imprisoned children………oh lordy it makes me angry.
A brilliant example of things looking weird and wrong to children is Jane Eyre’s experience in the Red Room – fiction, but psychologically convincing.
There’s religious imagery on display at the Victoria & Albert? It’s been a long time but I don’t remember any (fashion, industrial design, a golden tiger, some nice Constables but I don’t recall religious stuff). I thought you had to have a school trip to Westminster Abbey for that.
Don’t worry about AB, he’s just being AB. He can’t help it. I’ve long been convinced that he doesn’t believe anything at all himself but just like to toss a firecracker into a crowded square once in a while
What? Is Andrew Brown seriously suggesting that nailing people to bits of wood is one of our civilisation’s best inventions? You may accuse me of twisting his meaning, I prefer to think of it as Browning his words.
Remembering back to my childhood, it was the catholic children that didn’t want others exposed to the crucifix. If they wore one, they kept it well hidden when in public. Presumably, they wanted to avoid the ridicule.
Oh yes, there’s plenty of religious stuff at the V&A. I have stacks of postcards to prove it. There’s some of almost everything at the V&A. Three thousand floors, each floor ten thousand square kilometers. There are visitors who have been trying to find an exit door for fifty years.
Ramen sister… secularism is not atheism. It’s a point that that not many people seem to understand and no matter how much you explain it, some people just don’t want to understand the difference. Sadly,as I have learnt, these people also include elected public officials:
http://theatheistbiker.wordpress.com/2010/12/11/council-prayers-at-peterborough-city-council/
Rieux:
You mean Berlinerblau is a Drunken Donut?
It’s all about piety and plenary indulgences and taking up ones cross and following Jesus Christ, who suffered for our sins and the sins of the world. Children in Goldenbridge were told that they were the ones who scourged Christ and caused him to bleed and that they were worse than the soldiers and the Jews who caused him to be nailed to the cross.
I should have added that a plenary indulgence is granted to the faithful, who make the pious exercise of the Way of the Cross. In the Way of the Cross Christians recall the sufferings of Christ while going from the praetorium of Pilate, where He was condemned to death, to the mount of Calvary, where He died on the cross for our salvation. The gaining of the plenary indulgence is regulated by the following norms:
The pious exercise must be made before stations of the Way of the Cross legitimately erected.
For the erection of the Way of the Cross fourteen crosses are required, to which it is customary to add fourteen pictures or images, which represent the stations of Jerusalem.
According to the more common practice, the pious exercise consists of fourteen pious readings, to which some vocal prayers are added. However, nothing more is required than a pious meditation on the Passion and Death of the Lord, which need not be a particular consideration of the individual mysteries of the stations.
A movement from one station to the next is required.
But if the pious exercise is made publicly and if it is not possible for all taking part to go in an orderly way from station to station, it suffices if at least the one conducting the exercise goes from station to station, the others remaining in their place.
In conclusion it may be safely asserted that there is no devotion more richly endowed with indulgences than the Way of the Cross, and none which enables us more literally to obey Christ’s injunction to take up our cross and follow Him.
At this time of year if you enter any RC church you’ll find devoted followers doing the Stations of the Cross. They’ll be desperately trying to gain indulgences in the time leading up to Good Friday and Easter Sunday.
Tea – ha!
The coffee paid off. snort, giggle, snuffle
:)))
You mean Berlinerblau is a Drunken Donut?
I prefer the word Krapfen. But I think that’s Bavarian. You must admit it has a nice ring to it.
Meine Krapfen sind blau. My donuts are drunk?
@14: Yep, I remember how big it was. Guess I just suppressed the memory of the religious stuff or maybe I didn’t get to it. I distinctly remember that I only covered thirteen hundred and twenty nine floors. Still that’s an area much bigger than Canada; no wonder my feet were tired.
Brown’s explanation of what the NSS “believes” is beautifully wrong.
I think I saw something yesterday about Italian Protestants’ disappointment with Strasbourg. See, it’s not just atheists!
Maybe it’s time to re-read Ingersoll’s “God in the Constitution”, Mr. Brown.
By the logic of his hyphen-enclosed remark, shouldn’t that last clause have been “and especially the children of Muslims”? Just sayin’. This is an odd sentence.
Dear oh dear, Andrew is tormenting me. He loves to torment liberals who defend secularism.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/10086387
AB is becoming increasingly muddle-headed. That piece stunned me with its incoherence.
Well, I think the problem here is assuming that theists (or, at least, the religious leaders who are making the decisions for them) are satisfied with living in a secular society where everyone’s viewpoint is tolerated. They want dominance. And make no mistake, this was a move for Christian dominance, specifically Roman Catholic Christian dominance. This:
is exactly the odd idea they’re looking for.