Women’s Rights Are Called ‘Cultural Imperialism’
A few weeks ago, I sat in a meeting in Vancouver. During a boring bit, I was fooling around with Google, and I stumbled upon a paper entitled, “The (Re)production of Afghan Women” by one Melanie Butler. I recognized the name as I had been interviewed by Butler for this paper, which was published in 2008. Melanie had not really explained the actual topic of what became her graduate thesis in political science at the University of British Columbia, nor sent me a final copy of her paper, nor used any of my statements from the interview in her final paper, which might have interfered inconveniently with the narrative she was weaving. She knew what she would say before she even began to write.
Here is her paper’s abstract:
Canadian women have been at the forefront of the international movement for women’s rights in Afghanistan since the rise of the Taliban in the late 1990s. Focusing on the prominent group Canadian Women for Women in Afghanistan (CW4WAfghan), this paper looks at the role its advocacy assumes in the context of the “War on Terror”. In Canada as in the United States, government agencies have justified the military invasion of Afghanistan by revitalizing the oppressed Muslim woman as a medium through which narratives of East versus West are performed. While CW4WAfghan attempt to challenge dominant narratives of Afghan women, they ultimately reinforce and naturalize the Orientalist logic on which the War on Terror operates, even helping to disseminate it through the Canadian school system. Drawing on post-colonial feminist theory, this paper highlights the implications of CW4WAfghan’s Orientalist discourse on women’s rights, and tackles the difficult question of how feminists can show solidarity with Afghan women without adhering to the oppressive narratives that permeate today’s political climate. It is only by employing alternative models that contextualize the situation of Afghan women in relation, rather than in opposition, to our own, that feminists can begin to subvert the mutually reinforcing narratives that sustain imperialist violence and women’s subordination.
You get the idea, but if you can stomach more, some of the best bits are highlighted here.
Butler contends that the organization where I work, Canadian Women for Women in Afghanistan, is in fact not a network of women from all walks of life who came together, united only in the insistence that Afghan women and girls deserved the same basic human rights that we enjoy and expect for ourselves here in Canada. What we really are, she claims, are orientalists-in-disguise, who desire the imposition of our own western worldview over unwilling, innately different Muslim women. Butler vilifies the likes of Sally Armstrong, the Canadian writer and journalist who has tirelessly exposed atrocities committed against women and girls in every corner of the planet, even when no one else was paying attention. It was an article by Sally Armstrong in 1997, in Homemaker’s magazine of all places, that incited thousands of Canadian women to action, to speak up against the Taliban’s bizarre governance based on codified misogyny. Many of those women first alerted by Armstrong’s article are today the volunteers, board members, or chapter leaders with CW4WAfghan.
Butler goes on to suggest that I am a mouthpiece for Canada’s ruling conservative government (based on the evidence of a photo taken with the prime minister on International Women’s Day in 2008). She paints CW4WAfghan as a colonialist enterprise. All of her arguments drip with cultural relativism, and with a feminism that is unrecognizable to me.
While much in the paper appears to have been generated by the Random Post-Modernist Essay generator, and is frequently hilarious, the painful part is that this woman asked herself at some point, “I am going to write about Afghan women. What’s the number one most important issue therein I should research?”
Was it the fact that Afghanistan may have the highest levels of domestic violence in the world? That Afghanistan is one of the only countries in the world where the suicide rate is higher among women than among men? That barely 40% of girls are in primary school? That there is a teachers’ shortage of tens of thousands? That women in public life are sometimes murdered? That Afghan women are struggling in the uphill process of building a new legal system that will protect their rights and entrench the rule of law for all Afghans?
No, it was none of these things.
And no one articulated the upside-downness of this more than 13-year-old Alaina Podmorow, the founder of the Little Women for Little Women in Afghanistan. Podmorow waded through terms she was confronting for the first time: the idea of labeling intervention in outside tragedies “orientalism”, “colonialism” or “imperialism”. She was flummoxed, and her reaction to Butler is a raw, gut response of rage.
Not long after it was first published at B&W, Podmorow’s article had been picked up by more than 30 blogs, stretching from Canada to India. Nick Cohen wrote about her in Standpoint magazine. She was on philosophy blogs, political blogs, news blogs. One commenter suggested she run for prime minister. Many readers left comments saying that Podmorow was “smarter than a graduate student”. Over and over, readers pointed out the extraordinariness of Podmorow’s response being that such a young person had so clearly grasped the problems, and the danger, in Butler’s line of argument.
I would suggest that Podmorow’s ability to capture the issue isn’t in spite of her age, but precisely because of it.
But as we grow up, and go out into the world and make choices- about how to respond to the pain of others- we face a menu of options. We can pretend we didn’t feel anything and block it out. We can feel anger. We can respond with empathy and action. Or we can dig around for ways of justifying why this pain is acceptable to others, though not to us, and why we are not obliged to respond. Cultural relativism is this kind of response: one that is now out of control- because it has become institutionalized, embedded increasingly in academic disciplines. More and more, we see it as an acceptable response. I have found a culture of cultural relativism in Canada in our universities, public schools, and teachers’ unions. Cultural relativism has gone mainstream. It’s become so pervasive, we don’t even see it anymore. It’s simply surrounding us, and if we’re not careful, we become a part of it.
But Podmorow and other young people haven’t yet found themselves inside the bowels of institutional and political cultures that insist in their subtle whispers, it’s easier to pretend that ethnic communities outside our own are fundamentally different, and that the expectations of respect for human dignity are not equal across societies.
Children have that biological instinct for empathy, intact. It’s a precious thing, and we have much to learn from it.
But we adults sometimes relate too, despite ourselves and the cloud of relativism often fogging our thinking. You may have once seen a video smuggled out of Afghanistan during Taliban rule there, filmed from underneath a burqa, showing a woman shrouded and buried to her waist, accused of adultery or prostitution, slowly pelted with small stones until her lifeless body keels over in its hole on the grounds of Kabul’s sports stadium in front of thousands of spectators. If you saw it, you probably felt a surge of pain jolt you, and found it wasn’t easy to merely block this out or justify somehow that this atrocity had occurred.
You probably felt the pain of that stranger, just as an Afghan woman would also recognize a violation of human dignity if she saw a video of a Canadian woman being stoned to death. The Afghan viewer would likely be unconvinced by excuses of cultural diversity or a legal system based on holy writ. The capacity to feel the pain of others is part of being human and shouldn’t be suppressed. We need choose action and empathy when presented with that menu of options of how to react.
But this can be hard for grown-ups. It’s long been fashionable in the halls of western arts faculties to view all the world through the lens of post-colonialism. In undergraduate classrooms across the country, political science, anthropology, literature and students of other disciplines learn to see the developing world as unflinchingly hostile to foreign interference, as the wounds of conquest by imperial powers continue to heal. Young Canadians, as they evolve into their university lives, are taught to challenge their own western perceptions and to be culturally sensitive. Fingers point at critics of “the other” as buzzwords like “ethnocentrism” echo around the halls. All kinds of activities take on the metaphor of colonialism, from international development projects to scientific research.
There is nothing wrong with seeking intercultural competence, except when our desire to be tolerant erodes our internal instincts that tell us when something is simply wrong.
Another problem arises when a desire to preserve some exoticism in the world makes us ignore the evidence that above all else, we are human first, and most societies hold more in common with each other than they hold apart. In romanticizing societies outside our own, we can pretend that poverty, inequity and a denial of basic human rights are quaint tribal characteristics that make the world a more colourful place. Anthropologists document abusive practices against women as intriguing cultural rituals and western backpackers can frame on their walls photos of snotty-nosed, grimy kids in rags with swollen bellies, from their jaunts through places like Calcutta or Guatemala City. As we delight in the differences between them and us, we often drown out their voices that tell us, inconveniently, I want the very same things as you do.
Afghanistan is a useful example of how disabling an unhindered post-colonial lens can be to our sense of the truth when it obscures all other views.
While women in Afghanistan under the Taliban spent five years surviving (or in many cases, dying) through a hellish reality that stripped them of every basic right and attempted to beat into them the notion that they were fundamentally inferior to men, many in the West shuddered when reading the rare media account of the horror and suffering: women’s fingernails torn out for being caught with nail polish on, 8-year-old girls married to 40 year-old men, and other accounts of gruesome abuse, torture, murder and degradation. Deep down, that little instinct that lies buried within us was going off with resounding alarm when we came across these stories, that biological reaction kicked in, akin to the emotional reaction of empathy upon hearing about the suffering of other humans, because we instinctually imagine the feelings of pain inflicted on ourselves.
Then 9/11 happened, and at the end of 2001 the Taliban fell and Afghanistan was free. The International Security Assistance Force arrived and donor governments committed to stand by a country that had been forced to its knees. An enormous window swung open for women.
At that point, many of those same people who shuddered when reading individual accounts of the Taliban’s treatment of women seized up in an enveloping discomfort, over all the talk of rights for Afghan women. Journalists and academics started publishing stories of the unrealistic expectations, the danger in trying to “recreate” our own society in Afghanistan and going against nature by “imposing” human rights. Another popular criticism was that countries like the US and Canada had no right to make this “a war about women”. For example, in 2002, York University’s Krista Hunt wrote that, “the primary reason for this coverage of women in Afghanistan is that it provides further evidence that vilifies the Taliban and justifies the Bush administration’s goal of ‘hunting down the terrorists and those that harbour them’.” Or there was Katharine Viner, who wrote in The Guardian in September 2002 that feminism was being used as imperialism in Afghanistan.
It continues to this day. Human rights for Afghan women are being called cultural imperialism, and other such nonsense. Many in the far left anti-war movement want nothing more than for Afghanistan to be left to fend for itself, accepting (if not actually visualizing) that this may very well mean a Taliban return to power. Oh well, that’s the culture, the thinking goes. Afghan women probably like being oppressed!
But if you care to look, Afghan women are telling a different story. As Canadians like Jack Layton, the leader of a Canadian opposition party, the New Democrats, advocate negotiating with the Taliban, and donor governments put forward half-baked ideas like the establishment of a fund to pay off Taliban fighters, the 200 women’s organizations who came together to sign a declaration on January 25, 2010 in Kabul opened their declaration with this:
On January 28, 2010 a conference will be held in London, where a plan for negotiating with the Taliban will be discussed. We, women’s rights and Afghan civil society organizations participating in the abovementioned historic meeting, herewith declare the following:
1. Based on the persistent violation of the rights of women and men by the Taliban, whether when in power or after, objections were clearly and strongly expressed by all parties participating in this meeting regarding any negotiation with the Taliban.
2. We desire peace and stability in Afghanistan, but we reaffirm that the Afghan Constitution and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights are non-negotiable (my emphasis).”
These 200 groups further oppose the program to pay off Taliban fighters, they oppose the removal of Taliban leaders from the U.N.’s blacklist, and remind the international community of their “responsibility and obligation to support and protect freedom of expression, the rights of women and men and other elements of democracy in Afghanistan. Achieving these goals can in no respect be achieved by negotiation with Taliban.”
Perhaps because statements like these do not jibe well with the western image of meek Afghan women, and well, this frankly just isn’t exotic at all, this meeting and declaration received virtually no coverage in the western media. It turns out that Afghan women expect and want, why, what most Canadians want: human rights, democracy and the protection of their basic freedoms.
While canvassing opinion across a broad spectrum of Afghan thinkers, politicians, activists and government officials for the Canada Afghanistan Solidarity Committee’s recently released report on Canada in Afghanistan post-2011, there was a striking consensus among these Afghan respondents that Canada should be interfering in their country more, not less. They pointed out that they need Canada to demand accountability from the Afghan government, to keep extremism at bay, and to insist on and support the growth of democratic institutions like elections. They told us, without mincing words, that we in the West need to get over our distress of being seen as some kind of neo-colonizers. The accusation of colonization or imperialism existed only in the political science faculties of western universities, the conversations of young white people who fancy themselves peace activists, and in the diatribes of armchair commentators safely tucked away in wealthy, democratic countries.
I have found this trend echoed again and again. When I interviewed Afghan MPs, rights activists, civil servants and others about the Shia Personal Status Law (the “rape law” dreamed up by an Iran-backed cleric in Kabul, instructing women how often they should have sex with their husbands and that they needed permission go outside, among 247 some other articles) in 2009 for research by the Afghan Research and Evaluation Unit, I found widespread fury against the UN mission, UNAMA, and the international community for their passivity in the face of human rights issues. Over and over again, Afghans pointed out to me that human rights issues are the prerogative of the international community, as the financers and co-architects of Afghanistan’s democratization effort. They asked, if the international community won’t speak up for our rights, then why are they here?
What an affront to our sensibilities! It is so much easier not to have to speak out in their defense, thinking that Afghan women are perfectly content to be bought and sold like cattle, and kept out of public life altogether; or the Taliban ideology is acceptable to them.
Confronting the idea that others also feel, innately, that they deserve the same privileges and rights we casually enjoy every day in Canada, will take courage. But the blinders must come off, now. We can duly recognize the legacy of colonialism without it disabling any kind of intervention to protect the basic human rights we are all entitled to, regardless of what kind of passport we hold. We can similarly celebrate the multitude of cultures in the world, while acknowledging that they are all united by the genetic coding all humans have to reject pain and suffering, and to mourn the pain and suffering of others (even when we deny that we do). We can also call it for what it is, when we see human beings maltreated, tortured, murdered for “honour” or subjected to other atrocities. It’s fascism, it should be long dead by 2010, and instead it flourishes. To try to soften the edges of fascism by citing cultural tradition or religious practice is a disgrace to the first cultural community to which we belong: humanity.
Crimes against human dignity have no place in any culture – they belong only to the culture of inhumanity.
About the Author
Lauryn Oates is a Canadian human rights activist, gender and education specialist who has been advocating for the rights of Afghan women since 1996. She is currently Projects Director for Canadian Women for Women in Afghanistan, and a Senior Advisor to the Canada Afghanistan Solidarity Committee.
Thank you for exposing this woman’s infatuation for the Taliban and Islamism, that so many today carefully camouflage it by posing as some latter day leftwing anti-imperislaists.
Hi Tarek, thanks for the comment.
I quite like this article. So when you write: “They told us, without mincing words, that we in the West need to get over our distress of being seen as some kind of neo-colonizers.” The implication here is something like: get over your self-image, and do the right thing already — be colonizers. “We can duly recognize the legacy of colonialism without it disabling any kind of intervention to protect the basic human rights we are all entitled to, regardless of what kind of passport we hold.” Maybe — I certainly hope it’s possible at any rate.
I can respect those views. If we call ourselves nation-builders, then intellectual honesty demands that we acknowledge that we’re colonizers, with or without the ‘neo-‘. If we put ourselves down as second-in-command to the American empire, then we’re imperialists. So it goes.
As an aside, one place where I unreservedly advocate an international colonial presence is Gaza. There is no way for there to be any peace in that region without swift multilateral action.
I’d like to think that the extreme forms of cultural relativism, including the ones discussed above, are simply an overreaction to the very real history of cultural imperialism around the world by the so-called “great powers”. But I realize, looking over again at the academic scene again and again, whether there aren’t other factors. Laziness might be one – not deliberate, of course. But what are the others? Simple institutional inertia? The influence of those in “cultural studies” in English departments who have no history whatever of scientific training? I don’t know.
The most revolting thing is the denial that a particular ethnic group can contain more than one culture.
Everyone agrees that white people can belong to multiple cultures. In any European or North American city, there are hundreds of different cultures, both separate and intertwined. There are conservative communities, and liberal communities, and gay communities, and so on.
Non-whites are apparently only allowed one community. Each ethnic group should think alike, behave alike, and look alike.
There’s a word for that, but it seems to have slipped my tongue… Ray…something? Rays? I think it ends in “ism”. What’s the word again?
There is a sick feeling in my stomach over Butler’s…what is that called? Short-sightedness? Contrarianism? It certainly seems like she wanted to dominate all the others involved with the cause for the women of Afghanistan by denouncing their every intent.
It has been my experience as a woman who writes for women’s causes that there are far to many people willing to aggressively argue against the reality of sexism and what results from it. The denouncement of the extent and brutality of sexism has to be a result of a limited understanding of the female experience. The misunderstanding results from some men seeing women as possessing subhuman reactions to abuse and some women incapable of compassion because they never felt a fists upon their faces or rape upon their bodies.
Whatever the root, the denouncement of sexism and abuse of women and girls is delivered in a brutal fashion to silence those who attempt to speak out. Blaming the victim and those who come to her rescue is much easier than recognizing the wrong or attempting to change it. The hardest fact for women to accept is that men who brutalize truly hate women, believe they deserve to be abused, and that they will verbally brutalize anyone who attempts to call them on it. The less extreme are the many people who are not aware that they are sexist, honestly believing, as a friend once said to me, “women are just naturally drawn to cosmetics and clothing” and “men provide for women to get sex and women agree to it”.
Butler’s attack on the women who attempt to help other women is inexcusable and pathetically ignorant. My own experience with sexists leads me to believe that she is but one of billions who prefer to be the person speaking, even if she/he is wrong and regardless of who they hurt or to what degree the impact may be. Attacking the rescuers and the vocalizers is simply easier than accepting where one is wretchedly wrong and hurtful.
I am a communist and actually find myself agreeing with the liberal argument more than the post-modernist one, though I definitely don’t agree with the practice of Lauryn Oates.
What Butler should have been focusing on is actual objective imperialism in terms of the damage the imperialist war was doing to Afghanistan’s female population and how the turn to fundamentalism and the associated damage it did to women and girls came about due to the imperialist intervention of both the United States and USSR. Yes, the USSR too. The Maoists were right in this case with the whole soviet social-imperialism theory.
It also seems like Butler is arguing that women here have rights because women in Afghanistan don’t, using an almost regressive third-worldist and essentially anti-feminist perspective that seeks to decrease the privileges of women in the ‘first world’ as part of a process of leveling the conditions of women all over the world in some sort of odd ‘revolutionary’ transformation. While I’m sure her position is more nuanced and veiled than this, I also think that this may very well be a natural conclusion that one could draw from following her line of argument.
As long as capitalism exists, the majority of women will be oppressed. While some bourgeois women have been successful in the business world, they have done so at the expense of the privileges of the majority of women, to the extent that many bourgeois women have been directly implicated in the abuse and over-exploitation (above normal capitalist exploitation) of working class women in their employ. While the workers’ movement has often been focused on organizing male workers, women bear the brunt of capitalist exploitation on a world scale and must be organized to fight for their own emancipation and the emancipation of all working people. World socialism is the only solution to the problems that both Oates and Butler want to deal with. If they won’t fight for that, then their work will continue to be nothing but pointless political and moral posturing on the part of petit-bourgeois ‘first-worlders’ who want to ‘feel like they’re helping those poor little people who live in huts and have strange cultures’. It’s not about feeling like you’re helping, but about actually working to change the social relations by building an organization that sets its sites on doing just this (ie. a revolutionary communist party).
Hey, commie, you were tolerably obscure up to the last four lines, but for that bit, you can have a hearty ‘fuck you’. OK?
And how many hundreds of thousands of members does your revolutionary communist party have?
I thought Commie was perfectly clear about their position in that post. What parts in particular did you have trouble understanding, Dave?
It’s not just the young who aren’t impressed by post-modernism, in fact it’s just about anyone outside of academia and the rarified world of the Guardian reading classes . However if we dare to raise our heads too far above the parapet we get denounced as ‘islamaphobic’ ‘bigots’ or whatever is the current label for anyone attempting to think for themselves. If anyone here wonders why intellectuals and leftist politicians are generally held in contempt or at best derided by most ‘ordinary’ people this is why. The ‘ordinary’ women of Afghanistan obviously understand this which is why they and their supporters in the west are ignored and reviled by the kind of idiots Alaina Podmorow sees through so well.
But Thornavis, “intellectual” is far from identical to “postmodernist.” There are far more intellectuals than there are postmodernists, so postmodernism isn’t really a good reason for people to hold intellectuals in contempt.
Furthermore, Butler’s piece isn’t really intellectual; it’s more like a simulacrum of intellectualism. Cargo cult intellectualism if you like.
Commie,
You said, “World socialism is the only solution to the problems that both Oates and Butler want to deal with.” Please explain your theory. In socialists countries, women are not and have not been equal.
Would the “democratic business model” not be the better and more immediate solution?
No, actually, Commie, please don’t explain your theory; that would take this way off topic and go on for much too long, and we’ve all heard it before anyway.
I don’t want to close comments yet, but I’d like the comments to stay on topic.
I side with Lauryn.
How would some these commentators write about this if we are not talking about women, but about Jews? When WWII allies beat back the Nazis they did not initially set out to free the Jews from concentration camps although late in the war we were aware of what was going on. We were attacking an enemy that attacked allies and friends. Once the war was won, however, American’s, Canadians, Brits and other Europeans decided that Europe had to be reinvented to avoid a repeat of two world wars and the worst case of genocide in history. This was done through German restructuring and through the Treaty of Rome (actually more than one treaty) that created the EU around core political, economic and rights principles. Was all that work imperialist? Should we have not done it because we were imposing our ideas on persons that felt it was quite acceptable to extinguish an entire race or to thoroughly deprive that and other races of any rights? In fact many persons did see it as imperialist. Many of these issues revolve around where the intervention justification thresholds are and that is tough, but strong argument for intervention exist here because we have a clear majority of Afghans that support our presence and activities and because the Responsibility to Protect Doctrine allows intervention and the limitation of sovereign powers when a government is not protecting its own citizens,
This cultural imperialism argument is difficult to accept. Core human rights are non-negotiable. They are not cultural – they transcend culture – culture can’t be used to justify their violation. If it can then the rights mean nothing. The whole idea behind fundamental rights is that they are not conferred by governments that could just as easily un-confer them. Culture also can’t be used to un-confer fundamental rights. They transcend government and culture (both of which are relative and human works) and are a means to express, honour and dignify that transcendent being or humanness. The concept of fundament rights is itself a human creation and a legal fiction if you will, but it is a human invention or legal fiction that is designed to stabilize and ground everything else in a fundamental principle that is necessary for a just civilization to exist.
@ Ophelia Benson
Yes fair enough intellectual is one of those words that tend to get mis-used but unfortunately I think this is how most people would see it ( and let’s face it very few read blogs like this unfortunately ), intellectuals to them are pointy heads who think up five daft and incomprehensible things before breakfast. Postmodernism probably doesn’t appear on most people’s radar but it has seeped into so many parts of modern life that we come up against it’s baleful influence all the time and the consequence of this is that there is a general revulsion against all things ‘PC’, babies get thrown out with bathwater because of that and feminism is one of the things that has suffered most.
John Boon.
I agree with everything you say there ( I’ve changed my mind on Afghanistan, I now think we have to stay ). If we had had the same attitudes to ‘cultural imperialism’ that prevail now at the end of WW2 I doubt the re-structuring of Europe would ever have taken place, with who knows what horrible consequencies.
afghan women can speak for themselves as they do (i.e. check out RAWA)…they also call for NATO troops to leave their country…they don’t need westerners like me or you Benson (you moral hypocrite) to speak on their behalf…
you really think the War on terror is being waged for womans rights?
All Afghan women call for NATO troops to leave their country? You know that, do you, Saeed? How? How do you know that?
Moral hypocrite nothing. Be civil or go away.
Saeed, yes, let’s leave aside the summary judgments until the end of the conversation and not at the beginning.
Ophelia, Saeed didn’t mention all Afghani citizens, but only pointed to RAWA, or the Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan, which evidently <a href=”http://www.rawa.org/rawa.html“>has a long history</a> (founded under the Soviet occupation). I think <a href=”http://www.rawa.org/events/dec10-07_e.htm“>this is a clear enough picture of RAWA’s position</a>. The organization opposes the Taliban and the Northern Alliance equally. They oppose ISAF occupation here:
A neoconservative critic might acknowledge that the doubts of the population are a major obstacle to stability in Afghanistan. But the critic might also want to say that troop withdrawl is an unrealistic response to that threat, and that a more realistic goal would be to cooperate with the local warlords.
Still, the critic had better be willing to suffer through the same kind of slights against Jack Layton that Ms. Oates endorsed. If you’re not “Taliban Jack”, you’re “Northern Alliance Lauryn”. Whether these slings and arrows are relevant or not depends on whether or not the descriptions of <a href=”http://www.rawa.org/rawa/2009/06/29/some-jehadi-and-mafia-candidates-in-the-worlds-most-undemocratic-elections.html“>the central figures that RAWA provides</a> are accurate or not. I certainly don’t know. And Saeed’s accusation of “moral hypocricy” depends to some extent on whether or not these figures are as villainous as is claimed.
It would not surprise me at all if we (ISAF) were moral hypocrites in this respect. Colonization demands dirty hands. For their part, the people who work for the war industry are keenly aware of the need to shake hands with the local powers. For one thing that <a href=”http://www.rawa.org/rawa.html“>RAWA has dead on</a>, and which neoconservatives and non-interventionists alike can agree with: “AWA believes that freedom and democracy can’t be donated; it is the duty of the people of a country to fight and achieve these values.” Intervention has little long term value if it is not justified by the unambiguous support and participation of the population. The difference of opinion here is that RAWA believes that this participation should be with decent people against the tyrants, while neoconservatives believe that you have to support the lesser of two tyrants.
Ben, no – first, I didn’t say “Afghani citizens,” I said what Saeed said (except I added the capital letter), “Afghan women.” He said
“They” is Afghan women, not RAWA.
…Right, but RAWA is made up of Afghan women.
I know that, but it’s beside the point! He said what he said, and that’s what I replied to.
But so was I. The problem is that he left it ambiguous between “some” and “all” in what he said. :)
do you know any afghans, ophelia?
if you do (as I do) you will recognise that progressives within that country are split…some of them don’t want NATO to leave…some like RAWA or Malya Joya (sp) want them to leave…
what progressives like me or you (benson) need to do is assess these arguments in a rational way…we need to assess what has gone wrong and what needs to be put right…there needs to be more partnership working between afghans (esp progressive, secularists, femenists etc.), nato, ngos, western governments and multilateral inst. like the IMF and WB
what we don’t need is people like you, benson.
there is also something deeply patronising about your politics benson?
something about the white man’s burden
its easy for Oates to criticise butler…and easy for benson to publish it?
why don’t you publish this women…and then critique her argument?
http://rupeenews.com/2009/07/24/afghanistans-bravest-woman-malalai-joya-taliban-are-logistically-militarily-growing-stronger-as-each-day-dawns-afghan-women-and-men-are-not-liberated-at-all/
Saeed, I agree with your demand for serious debate. But I don’t follow the logic behind your personal attacks.
First you say that we need people like Ophelia to act in a certain way, then you say that we don’t need people like Ophelia. Well, make up your mind. You can’t say both.
saeed, that was my point – that opinion is split. You seemed to be claiming that it was speaking with one voice.
I don’t know what you mean by “people like you, benson.” As for Malalai Joya – try typing her name into the search box at the top of the page.
The “white man’s burden” item is just stupid abuse. Do better, or go away.
sorry Ophelia it was rude of me to speak to you like this…
Thanks Saeed.
Soe useful discussion of Malalai Joya here:
http://hurryupharry.org/2009/11/22/does-malalai-joya-speak-for-afghan-women/
and here:
http://transmontanus.blogspot.com/2009/11/encounter-with-latest-poster-girl-for.html#links
I’m dismayed by talk about the reasons for the Afghan intervention, as though the desire of Western nations to defeat the Taliban and al Qaeda, and the world-wide terror campaign they inspire, somehow invalidated the important job of rescuing Afghan women (and men, for that matter) from medieval tyranny. I imagine that liberal humanism drives Western opposition to tyrants (fitfully and erratically, to be sure). The concern for the status of women in dictatorships is not a mask for other motives, though other motives of the usual “realpolitik” variety exist. Do I help someone to correct injustice, or gain prestige, or defeat an enemy opposed for some other reason? Perhaps all these apply, and perhaps usually they all apply.
Ophelia, this is such an excellent article about such an important topic that I feel embarrassed to even point this out, but I know you are someone who cares about language so what the hell, here goes:
The word you are looking for is jibe, not jive.
Sorry for the pedantry. Keep on advocating for the rights of Afghan women! This cultural relativism is truly sickening, and it kills me that such an illiberal belief is being promoted by elements that are supposed to be part of the Left.
Oops, got confused, it was Lauryn that should have been addressed to. Tabbing between too many windows, forgot who even wrote the article I was reading :D
Heh. Well, to me really, James, since I’m the one who can tweak it – and I’m never sure which it is myself, because I don’t understand why either word fits (and I’ve neglected to look it up to find out why). Thanks for the pedantry!
This article is exactly the kind of exceptionalist Occidental thought that Butler is critiquing. The mindset that we must “save” the Other by forcing the Occidental values of “true civilization” and protect the poor, confused Other from their own confused ways is a hideously immoral method of thought that must be rejected in every form. To quote William V. Spanos “This binary logic, in other words, empowers the privileged term to represent the Other as nonbeing (spectral), as some kind of arbitrary threat to Being — the benign total order to which the first term is committed — and thus to subdue and appropriate this Other to the latter’s essential truth. It is in this sense that one can say that Western metaphysical thinking is essentially a colonialism. By this, I do not simply mean, as does much postcolonial discourse that acknowledges in some degree the polyvalency of the imperial project, a metaphor appropriated to the thought of being (or of any site on the continuum of being other than the economic or political) from another “more practical and fundamental” — “real” — domain of reference.13 In identifying Western metaphysical thought with colonialism, I am positing a literal and precise definition of the process of metaphysical inquiry.” The article that you post in the name of defending “women’s rights” is actually simply a way of imposing an American colonization of the mind upon the “uncivilized”. This reduces the Other to a docile being to be made slave to the “American ideal” and justifies all wars. The loss of being as Michael E. Zimmerman says is “even more dangerous than a nuclear war that might “bring about the complete annihilation of humanity and the destruction of the earth[…]If humanity avoided nuclear war only to survive as contented clever animals, Heidegger believed we would exist in a state of ontological damnation: hell on earth, masquerading as material paradise Deep ecologists might agree that a world of material human comfort purchased at the price of everything wild would not be a world worth living in.” I am sure that you had no intent of support ontological damnation in your article however I felt obligated for future readers who see these comments to realize exactly how reckless the rhetoric you impose upon them is.
Pavja – do you have any thoughts of your own, or do you just take all of them from Authorities?
This business of reducing the Other to a docile being – you’re saying that attempting to protect the ability of girls to go to school is to reduce the Other to a docile being? Can you explain that? I don’t mean can you paste in someone else’s jargon on the subject, I mean can you explain it.
Seriously. If you really want to convince anyone of anything, pasting in some more jargony predictable word salad is not the way to do it.
[…] His foul legacy persists. […]
There is no doubt that we are imposing/exporting our beliefs/culture on others through efforts such as CW4WAfghan. However, I ask myself, what is the greater evil? Passively watching women be brutalized and dehumanized so that we don’t ‘force our Occidental values’ on others or believing that our values are worth exporting to those we are exporting it to and doing something about it?
For those who believe that we shouldn’t be forcing our views on others no matter the motive or outcome, what do we do in the alternative for those who are unable to protect themselves? And please do not fall back on the false argument that it is our involvement that has led to their condition.
RE: “Perhaps because statements like these do not jive well…” The word you are looking for is jibe, not jive.
Pedantry excused, but jive, not jibe, is correct here. “Jibe” means to “change direction.” “Jive” means to match. Jive is closer.