This confusion of the epistemic with the political
Jerry Coyne and Orac have commented on Chris Mooney’s article on how to deal with anti-vaxxers but I’ll just add a thought.
Mooney asks what it would take to make the “vaccine-autism debate” (which isn’t a real debate) go away.
A Lancet retraction isn’t going to do it, that’s for sure. For vaccine skeptics, that’s just more evidence of corruption and collusion in the medical establishment. Indeed, I doubt any individual scientific development has the strength to move these folks—because we aren’t dealing with a phenomenon that’s scientific in nature.
Quite right; we’re dealing with irrational immovable conviction. What to do?
Instead, I believe we need some real attempts at bridge-building between medical institutions—which, let’s admit it, can often seem remote and haughty—and the leaders of the anti-vaccination movement. We need to get people in a room and try to get them to agree about something—anything. We need to encourage moderation, and break down a polarized situation in which the anti-vaccine crowd essentially rejects modern medical research based on the equivalent of conspiracy theory thinking…
As so often with Mooney, I have no idea what exactly he means by that. I do know vaguely what he means, because it’s obvious enough, and it’s all too typical – but I really don’t know exactly. I know he means we need everybody to be nice, and try to heal this ‘gap’ or ‘fissure’ or ‘polarity’ by being nice and looking into one another’s eyes and thinking ‘this is just another nice person like me, after all’…but I also know he doesn’t really literally mean that, because it’s too silly. But what does he mean? I asked in a comment there (which I can do there! because I’m not banned there! because it’s not The Intersection! it’s so exciting):
How? How is it possible to do that when, as you say yourself, “we’re really dealing with something very irrational here”? What does it mean to “encourage moderation” when one side won’t take any notice of evidence or argument? What does it mean to talk of a “polarized situation” as if the issue were fundamentally political rather than empirical? What use is it to import the language of political discussion and compromise into a pseudo-controversy over medical evidence? What reason is there to think that absolutely everything can be translated into the language of politics and “framing” and manipulation?
What does he mean by ‘moderation,’ do you suppose? What kind of moderation can proponents of vaccination resort to? Talking in really soft voices? Smiling while they talk? What? It is not clear, because Mooney (as so very often, or even always) didn’t make it clear. He just used some buzz words, and let it go at that. He’s very lazy about this stuff, when you get right down to it. He’s certainly not lazy in general; his first book was a triumph of energetic investigation. But he is very lazy about this; he thinks buzz words are all that’s necessary.
And he thinks everything is political. I think that’s where I disagree with him most profoundly – over this confusion of the epistemic with the political. I think ‘moderation’ on an empirical question is fundamentally meaningless, and I think making political noises about it just confuses things.
That’s the thought I wanted to add.
It is pleasing to note that Mooney’s article has been utterly demolished by the comments below it, with virtually no one even attempting to mount a coherent defense.
I wonder what will happen when some of the usual sycophants over at the Intersection get wind of this. Will they try to come to his defense in this instance? Or will they begin to get a glimmer of an idea that accommodationism isn’t quite all it’s cracked up to be?
Mooney is a cheap, intellect-free politician. That’s it, end of story. Perhaps this latest bullshit will wake more people up to this reality, so we have to spend less time talking about his pronouncements as if they merited any time.
I was dutifully (or rather by default) ignoring him, until CFI decided to shove him into another spotlight. Tsk.
It is pleasing about the comments – no one is fooled there.
Oh, I know OB, no criticism meant toward you. But really, aren’t we getting past Mooney’s freshness date? I really hope this latest nonsense is the beginning of the end for his “brand” in wider circles.
We should be, but people keep asking him to write things for them. I don’t see why, but they do.
Perhaps this tendency will begin to diminish over time with a few more articles like this.
Upon browsing through the comments, a mental image began to form of Chris Mooney standing dazed in a post-war Hiroshima landscape, with tattered clothing, scorch marks on his face, and a few small brush fires in his hair. A most gratifying image, I am ashamed to admit.
Mooney might want to start “building bridges” with the many pro-science advocates he has alienated over the last few years.
But Mooney isn’t going to do that. Bridges are for other people to build.
For truth’s sake. Is Mooney attempting to become a parody of himself?
Since it’s worked so well with creationists and vaccine rejectionists, maybe we should try his bridge-building approach with Holocaust deniers next. I mean, if we get historians and skinheads to sit down together and have a civil conversation, they must be able to find something to agree about, right? Right?
I think the only thing that will shut up vaccine nuts is finding the cause(s) of Autism – mind you even then I think there will be die-hards that cling to the myth.
@Josh
It’s been said before and I’m sure I’m not really disagreeing with you, but Mooney is an absolutely lousy politician. An effective politician works to win over the swinging voters whereas Mooney is driven appease his implacable opponents. It’s a psychological flaw, a weird sort of masochism perhaps, which is why it’s so incredibly irritating. It’s like the creep who always manages to bring the conversation around to their own little fetish. You just want to say “deal with it and come back if you ever have something constructive to say”.
t’s been said before and I’m sure I’m not really disagreeing with you, but Mooney is an absolutely lousy politician. An effective politician works to win over the swinging voters whereas Mooney is driven appease his implacable opponents. It’s a psychological flaw, a weird sort of masochism perhaps, which is why it’s so incredibly irritating.
Counterpoint: Mooney is the perfect politician for Obama’s America. In fact, the Democrats’ strategy of continually “reaching across the aisle” to people who do not, and will not ever, compromise could have been taken straight from the Mooney playbook. And the legions of Obamanoids online who tell progressives and leftists to sit down and shut up because it’s wrecking “bipartisanship”, well… it all seems a little familiar, doesn’t it?
A more charitable interpretation would be to say that Mooney has Stockholm syndrome; he’s fallen victim to the tactics that the right has used to warp American discourse, to such a degree that he now sympathizes with them.
Oh, gawd, I hadn’t thought of that, but of course you’re right.
Well I had sort of thought of it, actually; I was thinking ‘triangulation’ yesterday. Then I forgot about it.
I look forward to reading Mooney admonishing those haughty, elitist, historians for not extending an olive branch to holocaust deniers.
The BBC is way ahead of him – it had ever such a cozy chat with David Irving about the market in Nazi memorabilia a couple of weeks ago.
It was truly disgusting. I meant to do a post about it…
I guess he’d take the same approach with the anti-abortion crowd…
(just stumbled upon this little gem)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8501532.stm
“Tim Tebow is used to making headlines in the States. As a college football star quarterback with the Florida Gators, he will soon be stepping up into the National Football League. But he is making news right now for his forthcoming appearance in a controversial commercial set to run during Sunday night’s televised coverage of Super Bowl XLIV.
A conservative Christian group, Focus on the Family, have paid for a 30-second slot during CBS’ coverage of the game.”
ho hum.
I’m not sure if this is the correct place to comment, but I read with some interest your post on “ethnomathematics”.
I can remember being taught Mayan arithmetic at my school in Hertfordshire sometime around 1973. The purpose wasn’t to teach me anything about Mayan arithmetic; the reason was that I was a reasonably advanced student of mathematics (aged around 9) and I needed to have my time wasted while the rest of the class caught up.
If it’s anything like his strategy for dealing with creationism, Mooney’s plan for reaching out to anti-vaxers might be reassuring them that many forms of alternative medicine have no problem with vaccination.
And then we can trot out reiki masters and massage therapists and homeopaths and nutritionists who point out that their beliefs are perfectly consistent with accepting the value of immunization, and they even encourage it as part of natural healing. This is speaking to people, on their level, and in their terms — and building a working coalition of what can be called — oh, I know — integrative medicine. Anything for the main purpose of promoting vaccination compliance.
My, that Mooney is a mobius tongued devil, isn’t he? As he lays out his ‘bridge’ of vague analogies, subtle equivocations, and empty rhetoric, it becomes easy to miss the half twist he spins as he returns to show us that we were all on the same side all along.
I imagine his style is more effective on the people whose worldview is oriented more towards the side of the divide he wishes to bridge to. It’s a comfortable mix of obvious sounding statements and good intentions. It sounds nice so it must be true, right? Because that is how some people define truth; it’s what they wish was true, what makes them feel good.
Mooney’s style seems more appropriate for a self help seminar than for serious policy discussions. If, a decade from now, he manages to get the anti-vax crowd holding hands with the evolution deniers and holocaust deniers, and they are all singing campfire songs and sheepishly apologizing for believing ‘that stuff’, then I will cheerfully admit that I underestimated him. But for now, he appears to have all the insight of Oprah’s latest guru-de-jour.
I think Sastra has nailed it. Mooney will throw opposition to pseudo-medical woo under the bus, as long as all those nice people who believe in it get their kids vaccinated. Never mind the other problems, long-term and short-term, created by all the other pseudo-medical woo.
Ohhh…so that’s what ‘extreme’ means here? And that’s what ‘moderate’ means? I think I’m beginning to get it…
Yes, it all makes sense now – opposition to pseudo-medical woo is the same kind of thing as ‘militant’ atheism and telling poor little Pluto it can’t be a planet anymore.
I actually think Sastra’s idea is interesting, though unfortunately not all antivaxxers would be reached by appealing to an affinity for alternative medicine. (The only one I know personally is a right-wing gun nut more driven by contrarian pride than anything else. She despises hippies.) I think we’d get a lot further with antivax followers than antivax leaders, and a plan like that could potentially siphon some people away from the movement. On the other hand, obviously it could lend unwarranted credence to some of the stupidest areas of alternative medicine.
But that’s the thing: it’s an actual idea with pros and cons that could be usefully weighed, and a course that could be charted. Maybe it’s a good idea, maybe a bad one, but at least it’s something. That is not what Chris Mooney does. Grr.
If he’s going to get political, he should get political already. Go on, then. Bring on the strategy, Chris, and we’ll talk. But instead he comes out with all this fuzzy, superficially conflict-averse, philosophastering mutuality glurge. I often feel like he’s trying to sucker me into a program of action — or more likely, a program of silence — that I may or may not support.
Perhaps he goes for that kind of thing because he’s not actually very good at the political, either. The closest thing he has to an actual idea here is that medical institutions should try to make friends with the very people whose fame, income, and ego depend on decrying medical institutions. Yeah, that’ll work. Spiffy.
(Full disclosure: I see a massage therapist fairly regularly. And I’m uneager to slam all nutritionists, given the significant overlap of registered dietitians and people who call themselves “nutritionists”. I reckon I hold down the “hippie nutbar” end of the spectrum of B&W commenters.)
“philosophastering mutuality glurge”
Phrase of the month!
Good name for a band, too.
Nutritionists? I wouldn’t dream of slamming nutritionists – I thought that was simply a straightforward word for people who know stuff about nutrition. Is that wrong? And I wouldn’t dream of slamming massage either – massage is a fine thing, and I don’t think of massage therapy as an oxymoron or a branch of woo at all. Well not unless it promises to cure ALS or something. But if it offers to try to help with chronic unexplained back pain for instance? Certainly not – chronic unexplained back pain is notoriously common and hard to treat, and it wouldn’t be remotely weird if massage helped some forms. It would be more weird if it didn’t – I know my muscles tighten up like mad when I have just ordinary pulled-muscle lower back pain, especially that thick muscle along the top of the shoulders- naturally massage helps! Nah if that’s the hippy nutbar end then I’m Joni Mitchell.
Well, “nutritionist” is a catch-all term that includes everybody from RDs and PhDs, to unlicensed but basically soundminded people with an interest in nutrition, to people who think that eating an all-straw diet will cure you of any disease. Nutritional epidemiologist Walter Willett could reasonably be called a nutritionist, and so could your local raw foods zealot.
Massage is a similarly mixed bag — there’s the geeky LMT who screws my legs back on every couple of weeks, and then there are Heart Light Quantum Energy Touch practitioners or whatever they’re calling it these days, and everything in between.
I’d still consider all of it alternative medicine. (Okay, perhaps not Willett, though he has a connection to hippie-ish culture through Mollie Katzen.) But some alternative medicine practitioners are a heck of a lot more woo-woo than others. There is a cultural divide there that is not necessarily matched by a broad epistemic divide. I read Sastra here as implying that nutritionists and massage therapists are all basically pushing the same bogosity as Reiki masters and homeopaths, and that’s not really the case, though it’s not hard to find some who are.
Oh right, I didn’t register that. Maybe that was part of the point though (Sastra? yes?) – that there’s an array and it would be Mooney’s thing to Get Them All Together and discover everyone can Agree On Something.
I’d like to give Amnesty International some Alternative Massage Therapy right now- very Alternative.
I think I’ll offer that at my proposed Disabilities Awareness Experiential Learning Center.
It should be noted that Mr. Mooney is not quite to accommodating when confronting global warming deniers like Marc Morano.
It should be noted that Mr. Mooney is not quite to accommodating when confronting global warming deniers like Marc Morano.
And that’s why it’s so easy to recognize him as a politician. He’s not consistent. He’s never been accomodating with global warming deniers, and he’ll be just as strident towards them as new atheists will be towards creationists. Or as strident as respected medical bloggers are towards anti-vaxers.
Yet out of those three examples:
In the first, he doesn’t take his own accomodating advice.
In the second, he accuses them of harming the cause of science with their wily militant ways.
In the third, he holds Orac up as a paragon of how to communicate science, even though he’s basically doing what the new atheists are doing to more palatable political targets.
And this is why nobody has patience with Mooney’s bullshit anymore.
That along with his total refusal to address reasonable sensible objections to his claims, and his eager willingness to say rude inaccurate things about people he disagrees with, in books and national media as well as blog posts. It all adds up.
Curiously, Ophelia, your addendum is pretty much covered by the politician characterization (but thanks for adding it, I tend to forget not everyone is as familiar with his public rudeness and stonewalling).
I should point out that my “third” example is apparently in the past, now, if he’s shifting his accomodationist focus towards building bridges between doctors and anti-vaxers. I was specifically thinking of an antivax article he interviewed Orac in last June. Actually, reading over it again you can see the seeds of his current stance, with sections like:
Some outspoken scientists may have actually increased the polarization on this issue. For example, calling those against vaccines “scientifically illiterate”—or, as CDC vaccine expert Stephen Cochi reportedly put it to one journalist, “junk scientists and charlatans”—may just lead to a further circling of the wagons.
But then, my biggest recollection from the time is how he treated both the antivaxers and the people who accuse them of “thermonuclear stupidity” better than people have the nerve to patiently and firmly point out that the God that most people believe in is inconsistent with science and the world as we know it.
Some outspoken framers may have actually increased the polarization on this issue. For example, calling those against unearned respect for the truth claims of religion “militant” or “aggressive” or “uncivil” may just lead to a further circling of the wagons.
Physician, heal thyself.
Cam wrote:
I was being tricky and too clever, because I had deliberately constructed the phrase ” reiki masters and massage therapists and homeopaths and nutritionists” to go back and forth between (woo) and (non-woo which might or might not be mixed with woo), in order to parallel the way ‘religion’ encompasses the batshit-insane to humanism — and their resulting hybrids.
It’s a mixed bag, and deceptively so. In alt med, reiki masters and homeopaths are shoved together with the more reasonable and science-based massage therapists and nutritionists; because of this, the latter often slide right into the world views which feed reiki and homeopathy, and become soaked with nonsense themselves. But they make great poster children for the ads, for it looks so normal on the surface.
Both alternative medicine and religion work this way: they lump the reasonable in with the unreasonable, in order to give the former’s credibility to the latter. The moderate provide cover for the extreme — in a system with no checks and balances. When that happens, you seldom see the extreme becoming more moderate.
If you object to the unreasonable parts, they trot out stuff that make sense, as part of a package deal, and wonder what there is to object to, now.
I don’t disagree with Ophelia on message therapy or nutrition, in general. But, there are massage therapists … and then there are massage therapists. They run the gamut. There’s a distinction between nutritionists, also:
http://www.dcscience.net/?p=260
Is the “big picture” vaccination, or science-based medicine? Is the “big picture” evolution, or science-based thinking? I often think that Chris Mooney sounds a lot like the people who want to bring “Complementary” or “Integrative” medicine into otherwise scientific forums, in order to appeal to all people, and cover all bases, and have a happy harmony because nobody is feeling threatened. You switch back and forth, between both, as you feel like. And the number one priority is taken care of.
Not a good idea, imo
Yes, that’s more or less what I thought you meant, when I went back to look.
I’ve noticed that about fans of alt med talking about massage etc but I hadn’t thought to link it with the parallel religious ploy. V good point.
Josh Rosenau has posted an eloquent rebuttal: