You gave a simply lovely speech, dear
I’m late in doing a meany-atheist dance on Stephen Prothero’s sweet little valentine to the laydeez but here it is anyway.
Today, most Americans associate unbelief with the old-boys network of New Atheists, but there is a new generation of unbelievers emerging, some of them women and most of them far friendlier than Hitchens and his ilk. Although the arguments of angry men gave this movement birth, it could be the stories of women that allow it to grow up.
So men are angry and women are friendly. So angry is the opposite of friendly and vice versa. Well that’s wrong for a start – it’s perfectly possible for people to be both. Being angry about particular things does not rule out being friendly; it especially doesn’t rule out being friendly some of the time. Granted some people are friendly all of the time, but they tend to be bores or intrusive or both. Who doesn’t know this? People who are never angry about anything aren’t paying attention! You can’t have real compassion without anger. If you see the world as it is, you’re going to be angry some of the time.
That fact by itself makes Prothero’s ludicrously sexist opposition incredibly insulting. Men have the energy and passion and commitment to get angry, and women are lukewarm and permanently unthinkingly friendly. Well the hell with that – and fortunately it isn’t true.
I heard two very different arguments at this event. The first was the old line of the New Atheists: Religious people are stupid and religion is poison, so the only way forward is to educate the idiots and flush away the poison. The second was less controversial and less utopian: From this perspective, atheism is just another point of view, deserving of constitutional protection and a fair hearing. Its goal is not a world without religion but a world in which believers and nonbelievers coexist peaceably, and atheists are respected, or at least tolerated.
That’s a lot of bad stupidness in one paragraph. One, that is not ‘the old line of the New Atheists.’ Very few ‘new’ atheists say simply ‘Religious people are stupid’ – that’s a typical anti-atheist canard, meant to inflame hatred against any atheists who actually argue the case for atheism. Two – that second thing is crap. If atheism is ‘just another point of view,’ then it really is on all fours with religion (and other ‘perspectives’), where we just choose whatever we want to believe and there is no need for a reality check or an argument or evidence. But atheism of the kind that goes to meetings, as opposed to just non-theism, is based on reasons. People are active or argumentative or meeting-attending atheists for reasons, real reasons, and we don’t agree that atheism is ‘just another point of view,’ because we think it gets things right. We think theism gets things wrong, and atheism gets things (the relevant things) right. We don’t think all points of view are pretty much the same kind of thing, all mixing it up together in the great salad bowl of life.
These competing approaches could not be further apart. One is an invitation to a duel. The other is a fair-minded appeal for recognition and respect. Or, to put it in terms of the gay rights movement, one is like trying to turn everyone gay and the other is like trying to secure equal rights for gay men and lesbians.
No. Dead wrong. Wrong all the way down. Wanting to confront religion and dispute its truth claims frankly (which does not equate to having the goal of ‘a world without religion,’ which I think most of us know is a highly unrealistic goal and potentially coercive) is not an invitation to a duel, it is simply an expectation of an equal right to talk freely. It is also not the case that the ‘fair’ alternative is simply ‘a fair-minded appeal for recognition and respect,’ because that’s not the real or the only issue. We don’t want to beg for recognition and respect just because we exist, because we are another point of view; we want to be able to say why religious truth claims are mistaken. That’s part of what ‘new’ atheism is about. We are of course legally able to do that, but we’re not always socially or institutionally able to, and that’s why there is a need for campaigning and agitation and, yes, anger.
There was one female speaker, however, and she spoke in a different voice. Amanda Gulledge is a self-described “Alabama mom” who got on her first plane and took her first subway ride in order to attend this event. Although Gulledge stood up on behalf of logic and reason, she spoke from the heart. Instead of arguing, she told stories of the “natural goodness” of her two sons…
Got that? Is it clear enough? She’s ‘a mom,’ so she’s acceptable – she’s not one of those angry loudmouth aggressive women who would dream of self-describing as say a lawyer or a geneticist or an engineer – no, she’s a ‘mom,’ and bless her heart, she speaks from that cuddly organ instead of from her pesky and doubtless feeble little head, and she talks about her children. Isn’t that sweet? Don’t you feel less threatened already? Now she’s the kind of woman we can approve of, we professors in religion departments.
He fails to distiguish levels.
1. At one level there is an argument about which view of the world is actually true. Within that argument, we say that our view of the world is true. We use reason and persuasion, not force. Others are allowed to do likewise.
2. Then there’s the political level. We say that THE STATE should not play favourites, and make the decision as to which view of the world is true, when it passes laws, backed by force. When it makes policy, it should work within relatively narrow constraints – having preferences on, say, economic policies, but not on whether or not there is a God.
There’s no contradiction in saying both things. Is it really so hard for people to understand?
(Actually, I fear that even some people on “our side” fail to understand it.)
” . . . one [form of atheism] is like trying to turn everyone gay.” Well, if atheism was a largely genetically determined condition, trying to turn everyone into an atheist would be stupid as trying to turn everyone gay. But as atheism, unlike homosexuality, is a choice, a matter of understanding, then I don’t see anything wrong with creating an opportunity for people to de-god themselves by getting them to think. Being gay and being an atheist are not analogous, so Prothero’s argument fails.
Mind you, the part about the state gets tricky when it comes to public (state) school science classes. It’s possible to tiptoe around that (as Judge Jones did) but it’s tricky, and to many believers that is the state playing favorites.
Whatever “many believers” may think, if state schools teach science and scientific claims clash with your religious convictions, that isn’t the state playing favorites – it’s the universe playing favorites. Reality has well-known liberal and atheist biases. If you have problems with reality… well, as in so many things, Douglas Adams said it best:
The “friendliest” people I have ever met are Islamists (and by extension Islamic terrorists). Have you ever had dinner with an Islamist? They are so vastly hospitable, amicable, will pick up the tab, are chock full of good social intentions and compassion, and are out there to mesmerize you.
They personify friendship and sacrifice for strangers (as long as you don’t question some forbidden history like the nature of the douchebag Mohammed).
This personal approach is one method by which the Islamist has mesmerized the idiotic postmodern left.
G – sure, that’s the way I see it. But it ain’t the way other people see it!
It’s what Jason Rosenhouse said recently – science in the public schools is totally dependent on the courts. If it were ever decided by a referendum, creationism would be in there in a heartbeat.
Hospitality towards strangers is a long-standing cultural tradition of desert nomads (and residents of most harsh/marginal ecosystems in general) – a tradition you will also find prominent in Jewish households. (I seem to recall some very ugly bits of the Lot story revolving around hospitality towards strangers… but I digress.) But in most Muslim households, I suspect that personal friendship and hospitality and all that is much more prominent towards MALE strangers, and perhaps by extension their wives or sisters or daughters, but is rarely directed towards women except insofar as they are attached to men. So, given that many of the idiots in question lack testicles, I’m not sure that personal friendliness and hospitality and such does much to explain why so many postmodern pseudo-liberals have developed such a blind spot towards the dangers of fundamentalist Islam.
Sigh. Someone on the Women’s Studies list yesterday asked for readings and films on the politics of the burqa, and there have been many replies. Some were sane, but quite a few were of the ‘Muslim feminist explains how Western feminists don’t understand’ type. You don’t see people offering articles of the ‘Christian feminist explains how secular feminists don’t understand’ type on that list. Sigh.
“Or to put it in terms of the gay rights movement, one is like trying to turn everyone gay…”
I don’t know what gay rights movements he’s been around, but “turning everyone gay” or even trying to isn’t on any gay’s agenda who I’ve ever met, nor a goal of any gay rights movement I’ve ever read about. To use this line in an analogy seems beyond insulting — to any rational thinker in his audience, mostly, but of course to gays.
So in one essay he’s insulted women, gays, and thinking people, at a minimum. Would I be a nasty atheist if I concluded that I was dealing with a stereotypical, bible-perusing christianist?
Sigh, indeed.
I’m generally leery of anyone who adds an adjective before “feminist.” When they qualify the word, they almost always qualify the principles as well – at which point they are no longer principled: “Of course women are due the same rights and privileges as men, but…” Stop! Anything coming after that “but” is going to be sexist by definition. You can’t attach qualifications and exceptions to equality and still call it “equality.”
Hamidreza: I can’t speak for the postmodern left but I can say there are problems with social workers who can be overwhelmed by Eastern hospitality. They decide the house is so clean and well-kept, and the welcome so warm, that the girls can’t possibly be at risk there…
If you could keep your eyes properly focused I’d take off my cutesy, wootsy little apron and stand high heel to shoulder with any religious professor willing to take me on in a debate.
It is shortsighted of you to assume ANYTHING about a sweet, southern skeptical mama. tsk tsk…*goes back to baking cookies…pfft
http://www.examiner.com/x-32296-Montgomery-Freethought-Examiner~y2009m12d9-Ill-take-a-little-Carnegie-with-my-Pharyngula
G, snap – I worked up a whole little essay on adjectival feminism in my head (while on a walk) that day. Just haven’t written it yet! I’m tempted to do a miniature version and post it to the list.
Hey Amanda I wasn’t assuming anything about you, I was criticizing the way Prothero described you! I really really really hate the way women get summed up as “moms” or “grandmothers” in the media in a way that is much rarer than it is with men, and I really hate the way that is then used to imply that this woman is ok and acceptable and safe because she is a “mom.”
Ophelia–this one gets my vote for “Best Blog Entry Caption EVER.”
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