The reading matter in pews is limited
Andrew Brown is also eloquent on the subject.
The whole point about the net is that, like books, it gives people a shared space and a shared experience that is not physical. If I sit in an internet cafe – or even, God forbid, an office – and talk to someone on the net, I am far closer to the person to whom I am talking than to the noble workers on each side of me, who would never dream of emailing gossip in the middle of a working day. When I read a book, I am communing with the author, and perhaps with all the
other readers, not with anyone else in the railway carriage.
This is one of the exciting things about books (and the net), and turning libraries into youth clubs is one way to make that fact harder to discover.
Learning outside school is an essentially solitary process, too. It requires concentration; it may not require silence all the time – I often find it helpful to read or work in a cafe – but when studying needs outside stimulus, you take the book away from the library, a service they already offer.
The libraries don’t need to provide the noise for you. Noise is easy to find; quiet is not, especially for people who don’t have money.
What is particularly cruel and futile about the Burnham plan is that it destroys the one thing that libraries offer which no amount of internet cafes, Starbucks or even skating can offer: the place where poor students can find the calm they need to try to teach themselves things that are genuinely hard to learn. Middle-class or richer children, or children at good schools, can always find a place to be quiet and study with concentration. But there must be lots of people for whom a library is the only free public space outside a church where you can hope for calm; and the reading matter in church pews tends to be depressingly limited.
Library students everywhere please take note. (They won’t though – they hated this article as well as the Indy one.)
The public libraries in my area have become so squalid and depressing that I stopped going to them years ago. They are now little more than daycare centers with few books that any educated person would want to read. I pity any poor student who tries to study in them. Thank Goodness there’s an excellent university library nearby that I can use.
Good article by Andrew Brown.
Are librarians supposed to retrain as social and youth workers? The ones I know are people who would be very ill suited to that kind of work, though they are excellent at looking after and classifying books.
I would love to have heard Phillip Larkin on this idea.
“Are librarians supposed to retrain as social and youth workers?”
In the US, anyway, most public librarians wind up acting as social and youth workers, without benefit of training. We can thank the Republicans for that one–who needs funding for social services, anyway? (For that matter, who needs funding for libraries? People actually make the latter argument in this country.)
I love silence but silence in a public place always struck me as depressing – but to the point: absolutely right! it should be a minimum public service for anybody to have a silent place to read because not everybody has the luxury I have to be easily depressed, & then go hide in my own private sanctuary.
But I do not see why library and youth work should not be combined. It should be possible to go to libraries to find an AC/DC record, have fun AND graduate to the big silent room (big, we do not want readers to feel like smokers).
Some while ago I prodded my index finger whilst trying to pull up umbrella – and it bled somewhat badly. My initial reaction was to go to the library and ask assistant there for a plaster. I must add here, that I was en-route to the bus-stop, which was nearby the library in question. The assistant immediately went out of her way to dress wound with plaster – and even gave me another one for afterwards.
Now, come to think of it (upon reading comments) why ever not did I go to a nearby chemist shop to get a plaster, as opposed to going to the library – after all, the latter is not in the business of dressing wounds.
Sorry, I can’t argue the point in too much detail – but in short a library is a novel resource. You might want it for purist *learning*, but I’m persuaded by arguments that it’s a novel resource. I want kids to be encouraged to go a library. That doesn’t mean that the library has to turn into a dosshouse, but perhaps the library manager can think a little about what activities are on there.
A novel resource? What does that mean? Really – I take it it’s a term of art, and I’m not familiar with it. If you have time, can you tell us what the arguments that it’s a novel resource are? In broad strokes if you don’t have time for more?
And what is purist learning? I take libraries to be for book learning as opposed to various more physical or elocutionary kinds of learning, to be sure, but I don’t consider that purist, it’s just a matter of division of labour. A lot of learning is book learning, and I still don’t see why libraries shouldn’t go on supporting it as they have in the past.
Sorry, what I’m getting at is I think it’s common for libraries to be seen as a resource that a lot of other departments within the local council see the merits in using; if anything, not enough.
So Education and Health see benefit in kids club, Youth Offending see perhaps a reading group, etc etc. And this isn’t necessarily a good thing from your point of view but it does at least protect libraries.
Also, we have different sorts of libraries. It feels reasonable to me that a library in a real sink-estate does more to link up with Surestart projects than a city library or a library in a university town.
Oops, I didn’t mean to use the phrase “novel resource” twice, I sound like a plum.
Libraries – and leisure departments more broadly – will always need to make a very strong case for funding when local government spends all it’s money on schools (passported directly) and older people’s social care. That pushes libraries and DCLG policy wonks in this sort of direction…
I guess it is generational, but I find it appalling that people should install cafes in libraries. It certainly wasn’t done when I was in Library school.
Food does not belong in a library. It attracts vermin, many of which will eat paper. There is little we librarians can do about books that are splashed with food outside the library – let’s face it, people eat and drink while reading. But bringing food in or introducing liquids into the computer labs is just asking for trouble.
The academic and museum libraries I have worked in had strict policies about food; one even forbade bottled water in the reading room. Granted, the public institutions don’t worry about preservation of the collections as they weed ruthlessly based on circulation. My local public library branch does not permit food, drinks or guns (I live in Arizona).
There was only one good suggestion in the original article. Extending the hours of operation would give the public greater access to the library’s resources. Given the nature of the new libraries, I am not sure that is a great benefit.
“There is a reason libraries can’t have everything: they don’t have infinite funding,”
When they do not have enough funding to do both, obviously they should stick at first to books/reading. That’s just not a reason to restrict their funding such way!
“What’s the point of combining ‘library and youth work’?”
To get young people, on which otherwise books, music and the like would be lost on, closer to books & not associate the books with the typical stuffiness of an older generation, typically determining how libraries should be built? It’s the reading books that should stay, not the way things look like around it.
Oh, bullshit. Typical stuffiness of an older generation blah blah blah blah.
I didn’t say anything about what things look like, I said noise makes study and thinking difficult; there’s a difference.
It’s 2 in the morning and I’m sick of idiots.
I hope you are asleep now ;-)
I mean – to get young people closer to books. Young people differ not only in their appreciation of the wall colour.
In one building you can have silence & noise, not very expensive.
I wish I were asleep now.
But the point remains – not all young people do want noise everywhere. Even some ‘young people’ like to have one place where they can find quiet and a place to study and think. I know this because I once was a young person, and I liked the quiet of libraries. I just don’t see any reason to think there is a need to maximize noise on purpose in libraries in order to get people into them, even young people. (Apart from anything else, ‘young people’ are quite accustomed to providing their own noise, they don’t need libraries to do it for them.)
Ah, but you’re not one of “the kids today”, who, as has always been the case, are entirely different from “how we used to be”… ;-)
OB, I do hope you’re awake because you have something to do, because insomnia sucks, big time.
I fully agree, I just don’t see why it would not be possible to arrange it in such a way that there is quiet in some part & a looser atmosphere elsewhere – limited funds yes – but then the issue isn’t noise in one part so much as the lack of funding for something really & totally essential.
Dave, your remark shows that you’re not quite one of the kids today. I wouldn’t by the way, be seen death in company of what I used to be.
When I was studying for my degree 13 years ago I used the Public Reference library for concentrating reading of and and note-taking from academic and government journals unavailable in my university library. It was situated on a mezanine above the lending library, with its PCs. Noise was kept to aminimum by all staff. I couldn’t do that concentrated reading now because of the noise. The assumption here seems that either academic study should be excluded from public libraries, or that everyone under 30 can work at their best when under a barage of random and inconsequential extraneous noise.
Either way, how cool and inclusive. Unless you like a quiet read.
Well JoB the issue is noise, because that’s what the Minister of ‘Culture’ explicitly said (and the future librarian heatedly seconded).
“The libraries don’t need to provide the noise for you. Noise is easy to find; quiet is not, especially for people who don’t have money.”
If a person like me wants ‘noise’ – I can just step outside of the library, here in the centre of the city -and it is everywhere to be found.
People from all walks of life frequent libraries. For example, as I look around me now, I see foreign students, studying English, working class, and older people reading daily newspapers, about thirty young/not so young people busy browsing on their lap-tops – (some using ear-plugs to listen to music, etc. There are also people queuing up to take books home, as well as some others on computers, there is a group of people in an adjoining room enjoying quietly a reading session, and there is an English class for foreigners (manned by library volunteers) at the entrance to the library. People are looking very much at peace with themselves, and respecting each others space. If they want a smoothie/fruit juice/tea/sandwiches all one has to do is step outside and they are available.
Why should these people want ‘noise’ – when their minds are absorbed in learning kit.
The people here, in all probability, live in bed-sits, communal living, rented apartments, hostels and such like places – and not in mansions with many study -rooms. This is the only place they can go to where there is some peace and relative quietness.
“They are now little more than daycare centers with few books that any educated person would want to read.”
I would not knock the day care centres in this fashion, as – the day may come when you will need one of them for your loved one – or even yourself. Day-care centres are full of people – who, in their youth, were very well educated.
But the fact that one may need a daycare center in the future doesn’t mean daycare centers are nice places. The two are independent. I need to take buses; that doesn’t mean the buses are all necessarily pleasant. It would be very nice if it did mean that, but alas, it doesn’t. (Same with libraries; that’s what all this disagreement is about; we need them and they’re not always as we would like them to be.)
“But the fact that one may need a daycare center in the future doesn’t mean daycare centers are nice places.”
Yeah, that is correct – they are two different things.
So some libraries are equivalent to some day-care-centres – insofar that some are miserable places – which do not meet the needs of people.
Am I going off on a tangent?
Nope, no tangent here!
Of course sometimes not meeting needs is a matter of funding, or logistics, or inevitable features of the institution, or all those. But other times that is a matter of policy, as in Burnham’s remarks, and that’s what I’m taking issue with. A certain amount of noise is inevitable in libraries, but that doesn’t mean that libraries and their staff should actively encourage noise, much less that they should sneer at the very desire for quiet.
“but that doesn’t mean that libraries and their staff should actively encourage noise,”
Most staff members at libraries, which I frequent, seem insessantly to natter away very loudly in groups around their respective desks – as well as during the course of doing their duties with the library clientele. One can understand the latter – but not the former. It can be very intimidating to users of libraries as it feels to them like there is some kind of ‘power-thing’ going on in their midst and we the silent ones are under their control.
Quite. It is like that at the branch that I frequent – the staff simply make no effort to talk quietly. It’s as if they want to set an example to everyone else to feel free to talk as loudly as they would at home or in a noisy restaurant. This (subtly or not so subtly) conveys the message to the rest of us that we can’t expect quiet and so should not ask for it. Thus I (for one) almost never bother to say anything when the children present are running completely amok and screaming at the top of their lungs. Thus the library is often like a rowdy school playground rather than like a library. This is a standing insult to people who want libraries to be libraries – and even more so to people who need libraries to be libraries.
It is absolutely disgraceful that children in your local library are allowed to do what they darn well like – without, being by staff, reprimanded. Gosh, it is definitely not that bad here – in contrast to your library.
I go to a library in Rathmines, Dublin, and to me it is a gem of a place. The staff there are very respectful/obliging towards clientele. There is a Reference room upstairs where young and old alike, study and use their lap-tops in utter comfort. Children, also, have their own special (learning, through toys) time on Saturday mornings in an adjoining room – and it works really well.
Marie,
Perhaps “daycare center” means something different in Britain. In the U.S., where I live, a daycare center is where working parents drop off their little children for the day. It’s basically a mass babysitting service. That’s what I meant: that the public libraries in my area have become like grade-school playgrounds full of rambunctious children. It is impossible to study in these places, and they contain fewer scholarly or even semi-scholarly books nowadays. The librarians have gradually been filling the shelves up with more popular books, mostly self-help “relationship” books and mass-market paperbacks, pop cds, movie dvds, etc. These libraries now resemble nothing so much as shabby-looking airport giftshops.
Is this a British blog?
Marie-Theresa. You wrote:
“…there is an English class for foreigners (manned by library volunteers)”
Can you explain how this was conducted in silence?
“Perhaps “daycare center” means something different in Britain. In the U.S., where I live, a daycare center is where working parents drop off their little children for the day.”
Crikey, it sure does indeed. Day-care centres, here in Ireland, deal, altogether, with the other end of the human spectrum. (I think, in Englnd it is the same). That being, that they are synonymous with elderly people. They are places where they can do arts and crafts, read books at their leisure, as well as doing other activities that would pertain to their delicate years. They even get their grub into the bargain. On the whole they are nice places to go to – but as OB says, there are buses and there are buses, right!
So you are right, mcb. Sorry to have jumped to conclusions in the earlier post. This differentiation kit clears it for me.
Is this a British blog?
This blog (of sorts) is British – and it is also global.
Well, no, the English class was obviously not conducted in silence -( I think not anyway – as the foreigners were not using sign language, when I saw them departing the room) but, by the same token, just because it was not done in silence, does not mean that it impinged on the library clientele’s antennae. The English session albeit, took place in a separate room at the entrance to the library.
There was a ‘book club’ session going on in a section of the library, I was in, the other day. It was cordoned off with just a makeshift screen, and the organiser of it was talking at the top of his voice. i think he just liked the sound of his own voice – or perhaps, he just wanted to let all and sundry know what a well-read gentleman he was indeed.
People speak volumes- who speak loudest -sayeth, I!
This blog (of sorts) isn’t British. If it’s any nationality (which I’m not sure it is) it’s American, because I write it and I’m an American.
Is B&W an actual blog, or what?
No, B&W is a website. N&C is a blog (I guess) – so N&C is the blog section of B&W.
Never thought of B&W or N&C as having a nationality, although, upon reflection, for some reason I see it has having a rather British ‘flavour’.
Anyway, libraries. Some of the descriptions of what libraries have become sound ghastly, and so unnecessary. The two public libraries I know well are both incorporated into larger facilities which allow for all the ancilliary and noisier stuff to take place in discrete areas. It’s not difficult.
One is an urban new-build which includes swimming pool, gym, cafe, auditorium, day care centre (British usage), creche, cafe and meeting rooms. The other is a beautiful Victorian pile with cafe (which runs folk, jazz, poetry and movie evenings), auditorium (with dedicated theatre company), art gallery and meeting rooms. Both have libraries with quiet but relaxed and comfortable public lending areas and more strictly monitored areas for actual study. Why would anyone want to cram all these functions into one space?
The latter
http://www.24hourmuseum.org.uk/museum_gfx_en/MW1466.html
is essentially the cultural and social heart of the town and is (other than opening hours being less than optimal) entirely to everyone’s satisfaction.
A quick check on wiki shows that this is well within the ancient traditions of the library, apparently the romans made manuscripts available in dry rooms attached to the public baths.
Rather British flavour is probably because I link to a lot of UK news sources – and because a lot of regular contributors (to Articles) are British, too. And many regular commenters are in the UK…and so on. It all adds up. But as M-T and Don indicate, it has no one nationality; in intention it is international (though Anglophone). It has several Iranian contributors, several Indian ones…so it is fairly international.
B&W is a library of life – where-upon, one, from practically all over the globe, can learn from 0B, about all the atrocities that humankind inflict upon each other, in the name of religion.
It makes me want to scream sometimes.
“M.c.b although its a shame those are the type of books people read, gone are the days where people take clasic novels out from the libary….”
Although?
Probably I was unclear, the libary is only going to stock the sort of books that people read (if they read anything at all)hence libaries will become like airport book shops? I doubt whether libaries as we know them will be around much longer because people(even old people)will download books on to Ipods or download the book on to their lap top, I would imagine the future will have a few central super libaries that people from anywhere can visit on line.
Trans Atlantic blog with a liberal internationalist outlook?
Yes, yes, I understand perfectly well [i]why[/i] the public libraries are stocking more and more crap and less and less non-crap.
It sounds as though you’re playing both sides, Richard, by vaguely justifying the situation while simultaneously affecting to deplore it.
All I am saying is that libaries are not going to fill their shelves with books nobody ever reads its a shame but a reality, lots of things change when I grew up children had two parents get used to it.
As I suspected. All that tortured waffling was just your convoluted way of saying, “Tough shit, baby. If you can’t beat ’em, join ’em. Go with the flow.”
What would you want then the tax payer to fund buildings full of books that only you would read?
Maybe fill the building with art that no body wants, have opera,s that nobody ever listens to for good measure?
I’m surprised Richard hasn’t called me an elitist.
“It makes me want to scream sometimes.”
| Richard. | 2008-10-18 – 10:39:16 |
No, it doesn’t. It quite obviously makes you smile with smug satisfaction. So why the crocodile tears, Richard? Why the fake sorrow?
“All I am saying is that libaries are not going to fill their shelves with books nobody ever reads its a shame but a reality, lots of things change when I grew up children had two parents get used to it.”
| Richard. | 2008-10-21 – 07:32:23 |
What a weird, gloating, passive-aggressive post. One gets the feeling that Richard thinks noisy libraries that cater entirely to subliterates are a fitting punishment for all those “elitists” who destroyed the two-parent family.
Well, yes.
Richard – I honestly can’t see what it is you like about B&W. B&W is all about things that are ‘a reality’ but should be changed. I can’t think of a four word brush-off more totally at odds with B&W than ‘get used to it.’ Lots of things are ‘a reality’ that it is immoral to ‘get used to.’ I’m damn well not going to ‘get used to’ child marriage or female subordination or theocratic legal systems or bad schools or bad libraries. If you want people to ‘get used to’ everything that already exists, you’re wasting your time reading Butterflies and Wheels, and you are, frankly, crapping on its comments section.
Between you and Tingey and ‘resistor’ this place is like a garbage dump right now. And I’m not about to ‘get used to it.’
You’re a clown, Richard.
I’m new here, so maybe I don’t get all the ins and outs of this place, but I’m puzzled about what Richard hopes to accomplish with his passive-aggressive, wishy-washy posts. As OB says above, he’s so totally out of sync with what appears to be B&W’s raison d’etre. Is he trolling? His posts aren’t really sharp and provocative enough to generate a good flame war. Is he wrestling with some unresolved issues that someone here stirred up in his confused psyche? That’s too icky for me to delve into.
Richard. It’s disingenuous to say that you come here to learn, ‘nothing more sinister than that,’ when you consistently comment in a snotty, provocative way. You must be aware of this, not least because other commenters have pointed it out, as of course I have.
For example: ‘Maybe fill the building with art that no body wants, have opera,s that nobody ever listens to for good measure?’
That’s not a serious, probing, wanting-to-learn question; it’s a jibe. I find it very very hard to believe that you’re not perfectly aware of that.
Forgive me if this seems obvious, Richard, but the first answer to what you can do to fight the trends in question would be to stop trying to suck the wind from the sails of the people here who are trying to do just that. As has been pointed out, “get used to it.” is literally less than helpful.
I generally try to avoid guessing the motives of strangers on the internet, but it just comes across to me as you taking some measure of pleasure in the loss of something dear to those who don’t share your ideology. And without even the decency to feel enough shame to merit me looking up any German spelling.