Crime wave
Another shocking crime – some slag got married and it turned out she wasn’t a virgin.
The wedding night party was still under way at the family’s home in Roubaix when the groom came down from the bedroom complaining that his bride was not a virgin. He could not display the blood-stained sheet that is traditionally exhibited as proof of the bride’s “purity”. Mr X went to court the following morning and was granted a annulment on the grounds that his bride had deceived him on “one of the essential elements” of the marriage. In disgrace with both families, she acknowledged that she had led her groom to believe that she was a virgin when she had already had sexual intercourse. She did not oppose the annulment.
Sounds like a fun party, doesn’t it? But what was the judge thinking? This was a secular court in France, not a jirga. Are French women legally required to be virgins when married? If so, who does the testing? Maybe they call in the pope.
My favorite comment on that article has to be the one that likens the non-virginal bride to George Bush on the WMD question.
My favourite comment is this one
More seriously, this affair made quite a lot of noise in France, with Elizabeth Badinter, philosopher and wife of an ex-French Justice Minister, one of the many weighing in against the ruling in the newspaper Le Monde a few days ago, with, among others, B&W favourite Ni Putes Ni Soumises.
Good news is that Rachida Dati, the current Justice Minister has asked the prosecution service to appeal.
Defenders of the decision argue (a bit like our friend Michael Grant above but in slightly less hysterical terms) that the ruling ported not on the right or wrong of virginity and abstinence till marriage but on the fact that the bride lied about her… er… “condition” (?)
Badinter, Dati and Habchi (president of Ni putes ni soumises) argue that the decision doesn’t take into account its probable repercussions in society and the pressure exerced on young muslim women to “stay pure”.
Interesting point for all the religious apologists around who no doubt will say things like “it’s more a cultural than a religious problem” and other nonsense, the groom, it seems, was not born muslim (as if you could) but a late convert to Islam. Religion is the problem.
I can see the Justice Minister’s point: that the annulment was actually a sensible way of getting her quickly out of a situation which could not end well, and she didn’t want to stay married to the jerk anyway.
Arnaud: there are American secular abstinence-only “education” (actually, indoctrination) programs that teach girls that once they lose their virginity, they’re tainted, and that having sex with a girl who has had sex before is like sucking on a lollipop that’s been in someone else’s mouth.
Some of the people who support these programs are religious true believers. Others aren’t, they’re really in it for the “culture” and the “family values,” AKA keeping women in their place. There are armies of secular conservative “scholars” and think tanks devoted to justifying this sort of nonsense.
Religion is often part of the problem but pathological male dominance is the central issue, IMO.
As for ‘she lied’, what were the consequences of telling the truth? She could not be regarded as free to tell the truth.
Jenavir said: “Religion is often part of the problem but pathological male dominance is the central issue, IMO.”
Six of one, half dozen of the other, Jenavir. I’m fairly convinced that the primary function of all the world’s organized, hierarchal religions – especially the big three monotheistic religions – is to support and enforce mail dominance. If male dominance is pathological (and it is), then the religions that reinforce it are pathological.
There is a fair amount of truth in what you say G. but how do you acount for the fact that the christian and jewish religions are moving (albeit slowly) toward liberalisation but the trend is the complete reverse with islam?
Interesting that Arnaud says that teh complainant-groom was a ‘revert’ to Islam. Would a born Muslim NOT have demanded his money back for soiled goods? This particular man may have psychological problems which is why he has become a Muslim. I believe that the women who convert do so for psychological and emotional ‘security’ while the men do it to license their bullying nature. He probably had promised himself a virgin bride as a reward for all that giving up alcohol and getting down on his hands and knees five times a day. No wonder he was disappointed. One of my main concerns is what happened to the girl? Did her family renounce her, or marry her off to an old man or a handicapped man who needs a slave? It took place about two years ago I believe so it would interest me to know if the girl suffered as a result of this. Comments from men (not just Muslims) on the Times website, show up the traditional antipathy and suspicion men have towards women. Incidentally, many Muslims point out that Islam does not require virginity as a precondition of marriage. Damn right it doesn’t. Islam allows multitple monogamy/polygamy so how could it insist on virginity. Everytime you read about these disturbed preachers in the paper they always seem to have been married umpteen times in umpteen countries and have scattered their seed around the continent like confetti. Not forgetting the institution of ‘temporary’ marriage as well. No, Islam doesn’t encourage lifelong fidelity, at least not for men.
She was clearly happy to marry the man in question, right up untill the wedding night, it is likely that she though he loved her enough to overlook a very small matter so that they could be together, after all if he had said nothing then no one would ever have to know. I suspect that on finding out that he was not the person she thought she was in love the option for a quick out from a doomed relationship was attractive.
Jenavir,
While I am no expert I was under the impression that these “abstinence only” sex education (who compared them to “just hold it” potty training?) programs were religious or at least religion based or motivated (even when funded with gov. money)? Same for family value really.
But the fact remains that French society is usually quite liberal when it comes to sex (well, we are not the Netherlands but still…) and I can’t remember us having such a hang on about virginity or purity like that. So if this guy comes from a French background this is not a cultural issue.
But yeah, as you said, he may also be using religion as an excuse for his male insecurities and power fantasy. (“Wait! You are not a virgin? Bloody hell! You slut!… And… what if his dick was bigger than mine?”)
Don and LogicLad,
Yeah maybe, but if she comes from a very traditional background she may very well be seen as “spoiled goods” by her own family. Besides she has been repudiated and that in islam carries its own stain. As ChrisPer said, there were probably overwhelming reasons for her to lie in the first place.
M-T,
As a convert he probably sowed his wild oats before conveniently repenting and finding god. Their kind usually do, it’s the Tolstoy syndrome!
But thanks, this actually brings us to other interesting questions, like: once he had found out his bride wasn’t the virgin he hoped for, did he decide to stop the marriage right then or did he… wait until the morning?
Well if he waited until the morning after – he could (one day down the line) find a strange knock coming on his door. “Hello Dada it’s only me, remember that infamous night, well, I’m the product of what occurred between those pure stainless steel sheets”.
Cleanliness is the next best thing to Godliness.
G., you said:
I’m fairly convinced that the primary function of all the world’s organized, hierarchal religions – especially the big three monotheistic religions – is to support and enforce mail dominance.
Well, yes, I’d agree. But male dominance doesn’t require religion, was my point, though religion is one of its biggest enforcers. IMO this guy sounds like what Arnaud described: “are you COMPARING me to him? Does this mean I don’t own you?” etc. That phenomenon, sadly, knows no religious/secular boundaries.
Arnaud: a lot of the support for such “abstinence-only” things is religiously motivated, yes, but there’s an irritating amount of secular support for it. There comes a point where it’s hard to separate culture from religion. American Puritanism seeps into the general culture, even into the secular political arguments that don’t make direct reference to God or the Bible.
As a convert he probably sowed his wild oats before conveniently repenting and finding god. Their kind usually do, it’s the Tolstoy syndrome!
Oh, it’s older than Tolstoy!
“Give me chastity and continence, but not yet.” -St. Augustine
“There is a fair amount of truth in what you say G. but how do you acount for the fact that the christian and jewish religions are moving (albeit slowly) toward liberalisation but the trend is the complete reverse with islam?”
Secular society is moving towards liberalization, and some of the religious denominations are bright enough to spot the winner.
Traditionalist religions are kicking and screaming and fighting it every step of the way.
I dont disagree dzd but the trend is still going in the oposite direction to the islamic world.
Jenavir: And my point is that they aren’t so separable. Pathological male dominance – in a word, patriarchy – is a system, not just a symptom. Religion is a powerful tool for granting (false) legitimacy to oppression that is transparently unjustifiable on the face of it, so it’s an important part of the system. If the status of women as property weren’t divinely ordained and enshrined in religious traditions, institutions, and holy texts, this chump’s behavior would just make him an ass, worthy of mockery and revulsion rather than support – including the support of French judges. For all of France’s modern secularism, its marriage and divorce laws have a reputation as being a horribly sexist mess, in many ways rooted in the nation’s Catholic heritage.
Richard: There is no more a uniform “Islamic world” than there is a uniform “Christianity”. There are plenty of moderate, even liberal/progressive Muslims in the world. Not as many as moderate Christians, perhaps – but there are social and historical forces that account for that rather than the simplistic ‘Muslims are bad people’ morality tale you seem to prefer.
Reversion to conservative, dogmatic forms of religiosity – fundamentalism in any religion – is very clearly tied to poverty, disenfranchisement, and hopelessness. And before you make an objection that completely misses the point: I am NOT claiming that people from the upper classes can never be fundamentalists, but rather that as a widespread social phenomenon fundamentalism takes root and spreads primarily among the oppressed, not their oppressors. For example, there are some ultra-conservative Christian denominations whose spread can best be tracked by following factory closing trends across middle America. Amongst the hopeless and ill-informed, those who offer hope and easy answers (both horribly false) find an eager audience.
A good overview of the case combined with a excellent portrait of Rachida Dati, the French justice minister, can be found here in the Independent.
“Religion is a powerful tool for granting (false) legitimacy to oppression that is transparently unjustifiable on the face of it”
The FLDS being a really glaring example of that. It’s so obviously a system for providing old men with exclusive access to multiple young girls, and it wouldn’t fly for a second without the absurd religious gloss.
An interesting take on it all can be found in Marcel Berlins’ column in the Guardian. Seems to be an unintended consequence of the French law on marriage more generally.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/jun/04/relationships.women
As an aside, I’ve never really understood the obsession with virginity. Even down to the 75 virgins supposedly awaiting Islamic martyrs. Say what you will, but I’d go for 75 sexually confident and experienced women given the choice.
Mind you, if it’s all a mistranslation and it’s 75 white raisins of crystal clarity, I’m still on the wrong side of the fence. Personally, I’d rather have grapes.
Surely part of the idea is that a virgin hasn’t been stretched yet? The joy of tightness? I’ve always assumed it was.
But the trend is still toward liberalisation in fundamentalist American churches G.again it is slow but the trend is obvious,of course there are moderate moslems but they are swimming against the tide.
I also dont think social and historical forces answer it either, I think it has far more to do with the fact that islam venerates mohamed a man who in historical terms is little better than Vlad the impaler, whereas christianity venerates Christ.
First, Richard, the claim that Christian fundamentalists are liberalizing is simply false. Christian fundamentalism in America has been growing more dogmatic and conservative and morally backwards over the course of my entire lifetime, and there are no signs whatsoever of any reversal. In fact, the only change I see is greater evidence of self-righteous triumphalism and a marked increase in how open and blatant their self-perceived “right” to force their views on others has become – as the recent hubbub of evangelizing U.S. soldiers in Iraq illustrates quite nicely. As another example, take abstinence-only sex education in our schools… please.
And I’m not at all convinced that Christians’ veneration of Christ makes them inherently morally superior. I don’t see much positive moral psychology to be gotten from fetishizing the torture and murder of a human sacrifice for the purpose of some morally twisted view of “redemption.” (Someone else died so I’m forgiven for things I’ve done? That makes no bloody moral sense at all!) Of course, different Christians view Christ in different ways – which is part of the difference between religious moderates and fundamentalists.
Richard,
What do you know about the life of Muhammed? How many Meccans did he kill?
G.you dont think Christ makes a better role model for his devotees than mohamed?
mohamed had a long history with the Meccans DFG what period are you refering to?
Also G. the koran has the status of the direct word of God in the islamic faith,this alows the mistreatment of women and other outrages to continue because they have divine sanction. The same cant be said about the christian and jewish faiths.
Oh for christ’s sake, Richard, of course it can. There is plenty of stuff in the bible that mandates bad treatment of women – starting with Eve!
My fault I was unclear of course the bible is chock full of mysogeny, what I meant was it dosnt have the status of the actual word of God.
But it does. The Vatican cites Genesis when it’s pontificating about women.