The Carol Proof of the Existence of God
Theo Hobson has outdone himself – again. He keeps breaking his own record – it must be exhausting.
What’s up? Well, journalism is an atheistic bear-trap of cynicism and ferocity and Theo is tremulous with fear and anxiety about saying what he says but what the hell, he’ll just bravely risk the fury of the censors at Comment is Free and say it: Christmas carols make him soppy. There. They have the same effect on an ‘atheist comedian’ . There. He admires the comedian’s honesty in saying so. There. Imagine what Dawkins would say. There. Then Theo proceeds to imagine what Dawkins would say, then he proceeds to give him a damn good thrashing for saying it, then he talks some unadulterated nonsense by way of conclusion.
Christmas seems to me the refutation of the idea that beauty and truth can be separated. The beauty of the Christmas story, and of the festival, is more than beauty. Mere aesthetics cannot account for it.
No, quite right, it’s baby Jesus what does it.
The really funny part is that the commenters almost unanimously point out that Theo has simply invented ‘what Dawkins would say’ and then attacked his own invention (and not for the first time – he’s fond of this tactic), and that his refutation of the idea that beauty and truth can be separated has a few holes in it, with the result that Theo comments several times, more absurdly each time. I’ll show you – each new comment on a new line, each separated by a slew of sane, rational, well-argued replies and questions from the commenters; no wriggling, no evasion, no hero-worship, no failure to think.
I am berated for making a straw-man Dawkins. So what does he think? I take it that he thinks carols are beautiful but meaningless (and perhaps a bit dangerous in glorifying superstition). This is a flawed position – it treats as merely aesthetic what is more than that. Instead of thinking about this, lots of you are just jumping to the defence of your hero.
Look, I’ve got an incredibly simple question for you atheists. Please don’t try to wriggle out of it. Would you like to see the practice of childtren singing ‘Away in a manger’ and suchlike dying out? Please take a few minutes to THINK.
those of you atheists who say ‘who cares if children sing carols?’ are intellectually dishonest. For do you not think that it’s wrong to encourage children in harmful superstition? It stuns me how evasive and unthinking you are about the implications of your atheism.
It seems to be Dawkins’ view (judging from some of the comments realting to him) that carols are lovely, harmless, part of our heritage. Don’t you see that this makes him a big hypocrite? If he were logically consistent he would oppose them for their promotion of lies, but because they are popular, he doesn’t dare say this.
Ultimately you are either for or against Baby Jesus. Atheists should have the honesty that they’re against him, that they’d like the celebration of him to be wiped out. Don’t hide from the decision in aesthetics.
That last one tipped the balance: surely we have here a case of stolen identity. I suggested a secret agent of the dreaded International Atheist Conspiracy, or else that Theo Hobson is Richard Dawkins’s sock puppet, like Lee Siegel’s ‘sprezzatura’ at The New Republic*. Now that would be truly funny.
*But insulting instead of flattering – double-bluff kind of thing.
The real threat he should be worrying about is the encroachment of tunes about new and sinister gods like Santa, his luminous-nosed reindeer, and trickster-figure the Grinch.
Yeah! And those two sluts Holly and Ivy!
Dawkins on Christmas – (Newtonmas?)
http://www.newstatesman.com/200712130029
OB, thankyou so much for that one – it was so ridiculous, I finally signed up with the Graun just so I could post a comment…
oh dear, oh dear, oh dear…
:-))
“Ultimately you are either for or against Baby Jesus.”
If that is not a violation of Poe’s Law, then the law is inviolable. It’s gotta be a sock puppet. I hope it is: then the comments would be funny without also being sad to the point of being tragic.
This character is a moron. Simone de Beauvoir remarks somewhere that no one is really stupid who knows the limits of his or her intelligence. Unfortunately, Theo does not know how limited his intelligence is. Now, unlike Dawkins, I can’t stand Christmas carols, but I love Handel’s Messiah (every mountain shall be exalted) and that has nothing to do with the baby Jesus, just with my taste in music.
Very funny OB. Theo’s quite sweet, I think.
Does anyone know if Theo thinks it’s a co-incidence that Santa is an anagram of Satan? There’s material for another CiF post right there…
“Don’t hide from the decision in aesthetics.”
Unlike, say, religion. Yes, there is great suffering in the world, but look how beautiful God has made waterfalls.
And who’s hiding? If we have to accept or reject aesthetics based on the truth claims they embed, what exactly are the bells in heaven like?
Someone (enigman?) was suggesting the other day on tp that the possession of a PhD was evidence of an ability to think clearly. You just found the perfect counterexample.
I love Hark the Herald Angels Sing.
Say it loud and say it proud.
I was belting out O Come All Ye Faithful today.
That’s intellectual audacity for you.
I start sniffling at The Little Drummer Boy.
Now that’s speaking truth to power.
Here I stand, I can say no other when I croon In the Bleak Midwinter.
Joy to the World, the one that moves, said Galileo.
I didn’t realise I was such an intellectual daredevil (or should that be dareangel?)
KB,
Ah, but can you belt out “O Come…” in Latin??
;-))
I loved surprising the (fundie creationist) in-laws with that one!
In the shower this morning I was belting out:-
Adeste fideles
Laeti triumphantes
Venite, venite Bethlehem
and thinking the Latin was an advantage as you have fewer words and don’t have to shove in pronouns and prepositions.
Anyway the well named Theo could have made the reasonable point that the Xmas story is about hope, new birth, joy, triumph, all sorts of rather grand emotions which can touch us deeply. I’m intensely moved by the Orpheus myth but the “truth” in it is a truth of human life and experience, not the truth of events that happened in fact.
[screeching]
Natum videte
Regum angelorum
Venite adoremus
Venite adoremus
Venite adoREmus
Do-o-minum.
[piously and harmoniously]
I join you [with cotton wool in ears]
Deum de Deo,
lumen de lumine gestant
puellae viscera,
natum videte regem angelorum
venite adoremus, venite adoremus,
venite adoremus Do-ob-minummmmmmmmmmmmmmm!
[methinks silently]
Will she ever give over at all, all!
Congrats to all on the Latin! Excellent! A bunch of thoroughly previously-indoctrinated malcontents we must in so many ways be!
:-)
Staying roughly in the vicinity of this topic, at my older son’s school “Nursery Rhyme Nativity” (aka taxpayer-funded historically-inaccurate religious cobblers) Play this afternoon, there was the distinctly non-kosher presence of a PIG character in the ‘stable’…I’d love to think that whoever wrote the show deliberately stuck it in there to annoy the strict supernaturalists, but that’s probably ascribing too much rational thought to the whole process.
The attempt to make a clunky religious link into the raucous finale rendition of “Jingle Bells” was unintentionally hilarious, though…
:-)
Perhaps the children at the Nursery Rhyme Nativity should have been taught to sing
as I was;
Tinitus,tinitus, semper tinitus
O tantum est gaudium
dum vehimur in tra-ha!
‘Ultimately you are either for or against Baby Jesus. Atheists should have the honesty that they’re against him, that they’d like the celebration of him to be wiped out’.
I’ve got no problem with that. I’m against. In fact, I wish Mary had miscarried. I’d like it if the entire story of Jesus’ trivial and irrelevant existence were wiped out for good.
‘Santa is an anagram of Satan’
Tell me about it. Sold my soul last year and all I got was a pair of socks and a tangerine. Damn dyslexia.
The other day a woman I met said she had been Mary in the Nativity Play & they had a real donkey for her to ride on. I must say I was rather impressed.
And OB managed to get the last word on that thread (perfect timing there, Ms Benson! How did you do it?)
The way Theo Hobson was shredded in the comments was both true AND beautiful. And like all really true things, and like all really beautiful things, it was a little bit painful to watch.
Merry Molochmas and a Happy New Year!
Yes, I did get the last one? Excellent! How I did it was I saw the previous one was more than an hour old and I knew the thread would be closed soon and besides I didn’t care, I was so annoyed by Hobson’s last comment in which he yet again claimed that it was all a matter of Dawkins-worship when in fact it was a matter of the contemptible crappiness of his ‘argument’ that I simply had to give another kick.
Merry solstice!
“Merry solstice!”
Aye, and again sayeth I – as the North’s winter solstice occurs around December 21, when the sun is over the tropic of Capricorn!
That’s why I said merry solstice! Because it is the solstice! Today today; shortest day, longest night. This is the day the earth comes to a shuddering halt and then turns around and goes back the other way, until June 21 when it reverses direction again.
And from here on in we can only gain daylight indiscernibly /undetectably, [and from that we will know that we will soon be arriving at the next corner of life] to be sure, but also unalterable and final.
People, yonks ago who spent more time outside in the open, than we do, were extraordinarily far more cognisant of this annual ebb and flow of daylight.
Solstice is the day the Lord has made. So let us rejoice and be glad. In addition, to Christmas, for Yalda, Saturnalia, Karachun, Hanukkah, Kwanzaa and Yule!
‘Sun Stands Still’, nowth.com will give B&W readers an insight into Newgrange.
It is an absolutely amazing place to visit.
It has gotten very cold here in Dublin, Eire. I really think it is sometime soon going to snow. And guess what – I am scoffing away at a nice big whacking luscious Italian ice cream cone. Sure, is that not what Christmas is all about. Eh! Stuffing ones face, etc!
Yummm – what flavor? I love gelato. Hazlenut? Amaretto? Blackcurrant? Apricot? Yummmmmmmmm.
Oops, OB, quickly, before I get cut off. Rum & Raisins. Delicious!
Buonasera. Good night
I take it that my neon merry christmas sign and star of David decorations outside my house would go down like a lead balloon with you guys then? how do you wish secular humanists happy Christmas without causing offence?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpArS0WnVik This is about faith,miles of topic but fun all the same.
Irish answer to the quiz. Yes.