‘This is a man who’
I finally got around to watching ‘Question Time’ and Shirley Williams doing her party piece. The man in the audience asked the first question: is the knighthood given to Rushdie an insult to Muslims? SW was the first to answer: ‘I think it’s a mistake,’ she said. Then she went on. ‘This is a man who has offended Muslims in a very powerful way,’ she said in an unmistakable tone of indignation, then pointing out, absurdly, that he’d been protected for years at great expense to the taxpayer. Then she said it wasn’t Blair’s doing, it was the committee, and they should have etc etc etc. That’s when Hitchens said, quite rightly, ‘That’s a contemptible answer.’ Well so it damn well is.
‘This is a man who’ – in a tone of controlled anger. Excuse me? Excuse me? This is a man who wrote a novel, in part of which he expressed some ironic views about the p. M. What is wrong with that? What possessed Shirley Williams to say that as if he’d committed sodomy on Princess Beatrice’s pet rabbit? Would she say that about an academic – as it might be a well-known philosopher, such as her former husband – who wrote something critical about the p. M.? I certainly hope not, but perhaps she would. But what is her operating assumption there? That it is forbidden to write something critical about the p. M.? Well if so, that’s an end to scholarship of many kinds – comparative religion, history, politics, and quite a few related fields. Then perhaps she thinks it’s forbidden only for novelists? But if so, why? On what grounds? And where is that rule written down? Why haven’t all potential novelists (which would be all of us) been told?
Perhaps she thinks, as some cowering people said in 1989, that he ought to have known, or he must have known, or he did know. But if he ought or must have or did – again, so what? So.the.fuck.what? What follows from that? So does Irshad Manji know, so did and does Ayaan Hirsi Ali, so do Maryam Namazie and Homa Arjomand, so does Ibn Warraq, so does the Council of ex-Muslims, so does Gina Khan, so does Necla Kelik, so do a great many people; and they bravely don’t let that stop them. What is Shirley Williams saying – that they ought to? That they ought to know that Muslim men (much more men than women) will be offended and therefore shut up? Does she really think anything so contemptible? Or has she just not thought it through.
What people apparently do with these ‘offended’ claims is reverse engineer: they reason backwards: they look at the magnitude of the ‘offence’ and then assign guilt accordingly – but that’s wrong. If that rule held no one would ever criticize or dispute or tease anything because of the risk of ‘offence’ out of all proportion to the intent and to the harm done. Instead what people should be doing is coldly examining the merit of the putative grievance, independent of the quantity of fuss made.
Human arrangements, practices, customs, habits, institutions have to be open to discussion – family and marriage included, George S to the contrary notwithstanding. ‘This is a man who’ is not an appropriate response to such activities. (As George S notes in his very next post.)
Interestingly though when even Peter Hitchens criticised Williams, she spent the rest of the programme claiming that she had been misquoted and that what she had said was that the timing of the K was a mistake.
Even if that were the case (and it wasn’t, and she knew it wasn’t) she would have been equally wrong.
There was a time when I thought SW would have made a great President of the British Republic. But even then I would have been overlooking her religiously-based opposition to abortion. Now she’s clearly slipping even further.
I did’nt realise that SW was a christian.
Like Blair, she USED to SEEM reasonable …….
As Nick Cohen says HERE:
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,2110136,00.html
This is religous appeasement. And I would add, similar to the previous sort, of 70 years ago.
Scary thought, isn’t that?
>There was a time when I thought SW [Shirley Williams] would have made a great President of the British Republic.< That this kind of choice would have been very much on the cards is a major argument against replacing the monarchy by a president. -:)
Re the Question Time programme, it was refreshing that not a single one of the several speakers from the audience supported Shirley Williams.
SW is going the way of M Muggeridge perhaps…
Variations on the statement “He should have known…” keep appearing. I’m not sure if anyone has asked Sir Salman, so we probably don’t have the answer. However, Satanic Verses is just a story, for goodness sake. I think Sir S just looked at it as such, after all, novelists write stories. If he wanted to really offend someone it would have been quicker and with a lot less effort to place an advert in a newspaper or on TV.
So in spite of what SW or anyone else wants to think, they chose to be offended, to search out some reason to be offended, and then be violently offensive themselves.
So what should Sir S have know? That some dickwit can’t tell the difference between truth and fiction? That some people who would have never read the blasted book would throw a hissyfit?
Does anyone know if the SV was ever translated into Arabic or Farsi?
Nick S –
oooh, MM, now THERE’S a blast from the past! :-)
there was a time it seemed as if he was on radio 4 every 15 minutes…
And spot on comparison with SW.
Very amusing QT overall – loved the way the H brothers barely even glanced at each other for the whole show. :-)
Also – a disgraceful misrepresentation – a certain politically motivated islamist leader of a mid-eastern country issued a fatwa in 1979. The BBC, most of the political class and virtually all print journalism now purvey the received ‘wisdom’ that Salman offended the “Muslem world”.
World. Hell. Handcart.
Allen Esterson: “Re the Question Time programme, it was refreshing that not a single one of the several speakers from the audience supported Shirley Williams.”
Indeed, but you need only compare the instant applause that Williams got for her pean to cowardice to the stunned silence that Hitchens Major received when he called her out on it to know where the instinctive reaction of ‘middle England’ is.
So used are they to opposing anything done by the Blair government that they are instinctively drawn to the wrong side of this debate, and have to be shocked out of their stupour.
>Indeed, but you need only compare the instant applause that Williams got for her pean to cowardice…< Well, by the methods I believe the BBC uses to select its audiences there would certainly have been a certain number of Muslims in the audience, so it is hardly surprising that Williams got some instant applause.
When Christopher Hitchens commented on what he took to be a stunned silence from the audience (which I suspect wasn’t used to hearing the comments of someone as goody-goody as Shirley Williams being described as “contemptible”), the chairman David Dimbleby gently pointed out that applause normally comes at the end of a panellist’s comments, to which Christopher responded tongue in cheek something like: “My comments are usually interrupted by storms of applause.”
Hitch’s enemies on the left and right often cast him as a hopeless drunk. The man’s as sharp-wited in a debate or interview as anyone I’ve heard for a long while.
“Does anyone know if the SV was ever translated into Arabic or Farsi?!
Yes, Satanic Verses has been translated into Farsi. I am presently sitting beside a chap from Iran who read out loud for me in English the translation on the book cover.
See: Aye-haye Sheitani, Persian translation of Satanic Verses into Farsi.
An interesting aside.
A typical response to the fatwa is Silvia Albertazzi’s statement that “Freedom of expression is more important than any offence any book might cause,” a statement which would be unthinkable in any profoundly religious culture. Albertazzi’s own Catholic ancestors would certainly have disagreed
Is there anyone out there who is actually prepared to state what explicitly Rushdie’s blasphemy consisted of?
Gordon,
The passage to which the loons and goons of Iran and Pakistan have taken exception is a dream sequence during which a character who is undoubtedly mad, has a lurid fantasy about Muhamed’s wives (I do not know whether it includes his 6 year old bride).
In addition, the book is named after some verses of the Koran in which Mohamed condoned idol worship. His followers convinced him that Satan had taken the form of the arch angel and had tricked the prophet into thinking that these satanic verses were true.
A charachter in the novel is moved to reflect on this story and wonders how much more of this infallible book maybe diabolically engendered, particularly given its myriad inhumanities. In short the novel can be read as a plea for a less literallist interpretation of the Koran.
Khomeni, who certainly had never read the book, deemed that this amounted to blasphemy.
I have noticed that many of the vocal muslim whingers come very close to equating critism of Muhamed with blasphemy. As Islam is quite clear that Muhamed was human, this is quite ironic.
“The man’s as sharp-wited in a debate or interview as anyone I’ve heard for a long while.”
Just so; we noticed that last year (or was it the year before? oh dear…) with his multiple performances at Hay and on Start the Week and six or eight other Radio 4 programs.
yeh – he’s almost embarassingly good with an argument on religion, well rehearsed too…
Thank you Rockingham but I was being deliberately obtuse in that I was aware of the substance of what you said.
It took me over a decade to discover the facts, because, I suspect, very few people were prepared to be explicit.
There is some historical evidence, concerning a period when m was in a very weak political and military position, for these alleged actions.
Hitchens uses the old politicians trick of having talking points. If you read enough of his journalism and then watch him in debate, you can predict what points he is going to raise on a given subject. (In fact you can see this in action during the question time debate -when asked about the European constitutional treaty, something Hitchens has not written about, his reply was dissmissive and unsatisfactory)
Not to take anything away from the man. He writes all his own stuff (unlike politicians) and it is usually several magnatudes more compelling than his opponents’. His phenomenal memory must be a key asset too.
Gordon – sorry, I did not get that!
I asked this morning an Iranian gentleman what was his opinion on the Rushdie affair. He summed it up in one word.
Politic’s
I came across the following 2005 article on RadioFreeEuropeRadioLiberty upon surfing.
See: Iran: Rushdie Affair Continues To Cloud Tehran’s Claims Of …
“…[E]xperts on Iranian politics continue to discuss today why Ayatollah Khomeini sentenced Rushdie to death. The action shocked the Western world and set back prospects for the Islamic Republic to rebuild trade relations with Europe, even as some capitals suggested Iran was becoming more moderate 10 years after the Islamic Revolution”
A lampooning of Khomeini! Oh well now we really are talking blasphemy.
Was it here I was opining that this was one of the rare cases where I was inclined to a conspiracy rather than chaos theory, and that the FCO probably had some abstruse diplomatic silly game going on?
Here’s a good suggestion for what it might have been.
Hitchens definitely uses the talking points trick. If you read his article in the morning on Slate, you know what turns of phrase he’s going to use that evening on television.
But right. He writes all his own material, so its not like he’s parrotting anyone else, and I see talking points as perfectly defensible when you are on television.
I find that I like Hitchens a great deal when I agree with him. Not so much when I don’t. Not so much at all.
Patrick,
Oddly enough, I find that if you meld the two Hitchens together (image of them both in a two-headed costume, one half pristine pinstripe, the other rumpled casual jacket, etc, pops into head), then I agree with everything they say – as long as the right Hitchens is speaking at that precise moment…
which probably reflects rather poorly on meself…??
:-)
Ooh, shades of Zaphod Beeblebrox.
No Andy it dosnt reflect poorly on you any intelligent person will have veiws that cut across the political spectrum.
I agree. Everything should be open to discussion. How open, really, are Western societies to discussions that question their fundamentals? Really open, I mean? I know we don’t kill (usually) our dissidents, but we simply silence them. I think this is pretty good: http://grandhotelabyss.wordpress.com/2007/06/20/christ-you-know-it-aint-easy/
Interesting that the BBC Question Time website has this of Hitchens:
And even Mother Teresa! But it’s the BBC, folks. Their pusillaminous staff are conditioned to write like that.
Dave. S.W. for president good grief! long live our gracious Queen Elizabeth,if nothing else she saves us from the likes of williams,Thatcher, Kinnock and the rest of that shower!
In a previous post on the Rushdie biz, Ophelia said, ‘Oh, gawd – I think I heard that [Straw saying “Peace be upon him”] too . . . Can’t remember where or to whom he said it though. Do you, Andy?’
Sorry I didn’t respond. I didn’t go back to that strand till today. Others maybe won’t either, so I’ve imported it up here (since we’re on the same subject, anyway). I think it was Today on R4, since that’s the programme I listen to most in the Beeb’s big news progs of the day. It could have been PM, another I hear while having a bite of lunch. More than that, I cannot say. There is a way of doing a Google site search: ‘straw site:www.blah-blah’, which should pull up all occurrences on that site of the word ‘straw’, the site being either Today or PM, and, yes, I feel sure it was about the cartoons.
Someone on that earlier post wants to set up an Andy A fan club. I’m flattened – er, flattered. Probably both. Must have been my evocation of the reassuringly British (for no one objected to my slightly positive reference to the C of E!).
And here as well.
“Never sent We a messenger or a prophet before thee but when He recited (the message) Satan proposed (opposition) in respect of that which he recited thereof. But Allah abolisheth that which Satan proposeth. Then Allah establisheth His revelations. Allah is Knower, Wise;
That He may make that which the devil proposeth a temptation for those in whose hearts is a disease, and those whose hearts are hardened – Lo! the evil-doers are in open schism”. (22:52,53)
On the basis of these verses especially, the contemporary designation “The Satanic Verses” arises.
See: http://www.answering-islam.org/Hahn/satanicverses.htm
Assalamu’alaikum warahmatullahi wabaraaatuh, to Jackie’s heroes. Thus says the Lord will the world know my friends. Peace perfect peace be upon you all!
I’ve just seen Shuggy’s link to Tony Parsons’s article:
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/columnists/parsons/tm_headline=no-honour-in-this-farce&method=full&objectid=19351756&siteid=89520-name_page.html
>In the clash of civilisations that resulted in 9/11 and 7/7, The Satanic Verses was the opening shot, a gratuitous insult of Islam by a big-mouthed luvvie who despised the country that gave him a home.< Any bets on whether Parsons has actually read *Satanic Verses*?
Brian writes:
>How open, really, are Western societies to discussions that question their fundamentals? Really open, I mean? I know we don’t kill (usually) our dissidents, but we simply silence them.< Who, precisely, in the UK has been silenced? Brian links to the following for evidence (though it is about the US not the UK):
http://grandhotelabyss.wordpress.com/2007/06/20/christ-you-know-it-aint-easy/
Here is a relevant passage:
>…the sheer impossibility of ever seeing Finkelstein or Graeber or Noam Chomsky or Amy Goodman or Howard Zinn or Tariq Ali or Naomi Klein on mainstream American TV.”
Well, I don’t know about the US, but my local bookstores in London have shelves lined with Chomsky’s books, and those by Tariq Ali and Naomi Klein aren’t exactly hidden away. Not to mention that Tariq Ali pops up occasionally on the BBC, and I’m sure the blessed Naomi has also done so.
Brian, while his Chomskiness may be unlikely to appear on mainstream US TV, here in blighty, check his (& entourage) succesful censorship of the Guardian in its reportage related to his downplaying of the massacre at Srebrenica. Allegedly he did not threaten legal action. Allegedly he ddn’t have to.
http://oliverkamm.typepad.com/blog/2006/03/chomsky_the_gua.html
Only the Private Eye had the guts to follow this debacle in print journalism. Openness to criticism of our fundamentals – my eye !
“Honour crimes units to be piloted”
See: B&W News/G Tingey’S links. That fact should hopefully bring relief of some description to countless young girls/women. Whose voices with respect of same have been not been heard.
Everyone should buy latest copy of the “Eye” – well, everyone should buy EVERY copy of it, it’s bloody brilliant! :-) – lovely little article “Jihad Latest” on Ed Husain’s book “The Islamist”.
Mind you, t’eye pointed out waaaayyyy back certain minot issues like Dilpazier Aslam writing a load of cant in the Grauniad when he was a member of Hizb ut-Tahrir. It goes on to say the G’s “website still carries podcasts of Hizb leaders, while its comment pages are every Muslim Brotherhood apologist’s favourite read.”
As Kate Bush put it “mmmmm…yes!”
:-)
plus their sport coverage is dreadful..
At least they still have Ben Goldacre (pbuh).
==>’vilified’ the prophet (sbuh)
Erm, am almost afraid to ask Andy A what the letters in the brackets stand for!
But relating to the CPS report on islamist groups’ link to some honour murders, the BBC uncritically repeats this quote from the MCB :
==>But the Muslim Council of Britain said “honour” violence was a cultural practice, and nothing to do with faith.
The neat disclaimer that ‘culture’, not the religion itself, is responsible for the deeply unpleasant aspects of islamic practice – honour killing, female circumcision, burkhas, gender segregation etc – is mendacious. Islam, through its sharia and sunna, clearly deems the control of women, especially their sexuality, central to its societal code and in nearly every muslim majority country that you can think of, this control is legislated and enforced through the state and its agents.
Watch dear leader, Sheikh Qaradawi in action here and you will realise that how closely honour murders are integregated with muslim concepts of sexual crime or zina.
http://www.youtube.com:80/watch?v=4g_QwiYxvkY
Whether it is Sheikh Qaradawi or Hilaly or the silver-tongued Ramadan, you get the truth of the religious thinking that underpins all these ‘cultural’ practices when you ask tangential questions and the little slips occur.
Thus, in the instance here : female masturbation bad -> hymen may be damaged -> girl may be accused of zina and killed by family -> such murder is crime and unsanctioned by sharia -> said girl should have been only FLOGGED!
Don,
yeah, but have you seen how much (&badly) they edit his column??
I’d much rather flip to http://www.badscience.net to read it in its full, un-mucked-up glory!
Fair point. I only get the Saturday edition. Cherry pick from the online version the rest of the week.
BTW, re. Straw and PBUH
http://www.thefirstpost.co.uk/index.php?menuID=1&subID=321
mirax,
snap
“the BBC uncritically repeats this quote from the MCB”
Doesn’t it just. I was probably saying just that in a later post while you were saying it here. They are so annoying – turning to the damn MCB for a view to counter Afzal’s. Always, always, always with the wretched MCB, as if it had some kind of Official Standing.
Speaking of Ben Goldacre, you have him to thank for those two Wellington items yesterday. Ben sent me the links a few days ago.
>But the Muslim Council of Britain said “honour” violence was a cultural practice, and nothing to do with faith.< A MCB spokeswoman not only repeated this mantra on this evening’s (Tuesday) BBC Radio 4’s “File on Four” on honour killings in the UK, she denied that any Muslim would justify it in terms of Islam – this was a few minutes after we heard Muslims say just that! http://tinyurl.com/ynwn4n
Stating the obvious that still needs saying: A letter in today’s London Evening Standard reads:
“It is not Salman Rushdie who is costing the taxpayer millions of pounds for security – it is the paranoid Islamists who threaten to kill him.”
>But the Muslim Council of Britain said “honour” violence was a cultural practice, and nothing to do with faith.< Just like the Iranian Government had lifted the fatwah on Sir SR and the religious loonies said it has not – by them – been rescinded!
“she denied that any Muslim would justify it in terms of Islam – this was a few minutes after we heard Muslims say just that!”
Excellent!
This last week I was on hols out of internet range so have missed out on the debate over Sir Salman. I heard of the honour being granted just as I left and the beaches seemed more golden, the meadows flowerier, the sea and mountains bluer.
It was in relation to the Big M fella, and it was ‘sbuh’. Lest B&W get firebombed by Rage Boy, I’d better leave it to you to work out. But it ain’t ‘stars’ or ‘superlatives’, although you could, in extremis, claim that’s what you meant, i.e. when Rage Boy is threatening a bit of immolation.
Might be even safer keeping it with
a p – though there will be those who
know that it represents a word with
a shortly following x.
_
Brown is considering appointing Shirley Williams to a cabinet post. So much for that new dawn then…