Tony and Jack
The Guardian thinks it needs to inform us that
CEO of female-only app would not address trans woman as ‘Ms’, Sydney court hears
That’s because he’s a man, Guardian. What’s your point? (I mean that in the largest possible sense, as well as the ordinary one.)
A court has heard that the founder and CEO of a women-only social media app will not address a transgender woman as “Ms”, saying “I don’t think it’s kind to expect a woman to see a man as a woman”.
It’s not “kind” and it’s also not reasonable.
[Tickle’s counsel, Georgina Costello KC] asked Grover if she would “call her Ms Tickle in real life?”
“No,” Grover answered. When asked if that was kind, Grover said: “I don’t think that it’s kind to expect a woman to see a man as a woman.”
What does that even have to do with anything? They’re in a courtroom, not nursery school. Since when are adults supposed to be showily dramatically “kind” to each other? Or rather since when are female adults supposed to be showily dramatically “kind” to men who claim to be women? How about men being kind to women for a change?
As part of her argument, Costello described a transgender woman who had a female birth certificate, hormone therapy, breasts, gender affirmation surgery, wore makeup and women’s clothes, had a woman’s hairstyle and used women’s facilities.
“I suggest to you that that is a woman in our society,” said Costello.
Oh ffs. I could describe a giraffe that had a female birth certificate, hormone therapy, breasts, gender affirmation surgery, wore makeup and women’s clothes, had a woman’s hairstyle and used specially-made women’s facilities. None of that would make the giraffe a woman. This stuff is so childish. Playing dressup does not make you the thing you dress up as. It’s great fun to pretend it does when you’re a child, but doing that as an adult is a whole different kettle of giraffes. We used to know this. Really: we did.
Yes! Turn the argument around! I love this framing. No, it is not kind to make these demands; if they are going to insist on “kindness”, start there.
https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/97fa3ec5c965ce469a2a49dedc713eb443836d44/0_0_6036_3622/master/6036.jpg?width=620&dpr=1&s=none
He is an overweight man. JFC, look at the layer of fat around his Adam’s apple. If ever one wanted an image that captured the notion of compelled agreement with fantasy..
“I suggest to you that that is a woman,” my ass.
As I’ve been saying for a while now, the original disrespect, the original cruelty, is the demand to see fiction as reality and participate in delusion.
That’s the rudeness, and refusal to comply with it is not itself rudeness.
It’s self-defense.
Yes, it’s the lying that is the problem… That and the medical oathbreakers. I’m utterly indifferent to the “think of the children” argument (bring coercion into it and I’ll change my mind) or shitty jocks losing out to other shitty jocks, but the lying is the greatest of all possible violations.
Sackbut #1
It’s a personal opinion, but I think there’s an important difference between being “nice” and being “kind”.
I think being “kind” is being more honest, respectful and understanding.
That is, a man… who had a falsified birth certificate stating that he was the sex he’s not … who has taken artificial cross-sex hormones … who had fake breast implants … who may have had his penis and testicles surgically removed or may have had his penis inverted to construct an artificial open wound or pouch to serve as an ersatz “neo vagina” … who wears make-up … who wears stereotypically “female” clothes (in plus plus sizes) … who wears his hair long and stringy … and who insists on invading women’s spaces.
That’s not a woman. That’s an arrogant man, disregarding and breaking women’s boundaries, forcing his entitled self on women regardless of their rights or their wishes, who is willing to lie and commit fraud to get his own way, and who mutilates himself to feed a fetishistic fantasy. That’s not a woman.
BKiSA, the reason children are part of the argument is because they are being coerced by the machinery of the ‘trans’ cult.
As Graham Linehan famously said “You don’t tell children that they might have been born in the wrong body, because they are children, and they’ll believe you.”
Kids are being socially transitioned by adults, the moment they display any reluctance to go along with the restrictions placed on their sex, and especially if they show any interest in behaving in ways that are reserved for members of the opposite sex. An extraordinarily large percentage of these children are on the autism spectrum (at least ten times the prevalence in the general population) and/or would, if left alone, grow up to be same-sex attracted (again, in numbers greatly exceeding the normal prevalence; ten to thirty times). Most have other mental health issues; usually more than one, and often due to severe trauma. These children, often* brought along by homophobic parents, and those who would much rather their children be fashionably ‘trans’ than either autistic or mentally ill, have no idea what is going on. And, since the first part of the abuse starts with hormone disruption, their brains don’t get any chance to mature to the point where they can stand up and object to what they’re being forced into. Instead of a normal rebellious teen son or daughter, the adults get a compliant, child-like, should-be adolescent with severe developmental delays.
I don’t understand how anyone, having learnt what the Cass investigation uncovered, can ignore what is being done to some of the most vulnerable children in society.
*But not always. Some parents are railroaded by a captured health system, with false threats of imminent suicide if their children aren’t ‘affirmed’ as something they are not, and never can be.
A court room isn’t “real life”? (Also, why the hell is a lawyer talking like that?)
(Following on tigger_the_wing@8). As for “shitty jocks losing out to other shitty jocks,” that’s a shitty thing to say. Those are women who have worked hard to achieve excellence in their fields having the reward they’ve earned taken away by men masquerading as women. That’s nowhere near the worst thing that happens to women at the hands of men, but it’s very much indicative of how women are treated in general, and it’s in the spotlight because most sports clearly privilege the kinds of physical advantages that men have over women.
Yes, sorry to pile on but I really dislike that “shitty jocks” remark. That’s even though I also dislike the way sports displace more important matters in academics and so on. Unfairness is unfairness even in realms that don’t interest me personally.
I am surprised that perjury laws aren’t being used by the defence. Not only is it a crime to lie under oath but in most jurisdictions I think that it is also a crime to compel someone else to lie.
The answer to that question should simply be that the defendant knows it to be a lie and that no one in that courtroom can compel her to say what she knows to be untrue. Whether it is kind or not is irrelevant. It is simply a lie.
Well I take the view that learning is hard and failure is sharp and experimenting on children (who did after all say “yes” to the whole thing) is a lot more ethical than experimenting on monkeys (and there’s a lot more. The problem is the doctors who should be gatekeeping this sort of thing; it doesn’t take a very complicated thought experiment to see why it violates the Hippocratic Oath.
People I do not like being mistreated by organizations I do not like engaging in pointless activities I do not like just don’t engage my sympathies the way the lying does. The endless, relentless, despicable, obvious lying about reality, that which enables everything that trickles down from it… *That* is what is truly vile about all this; without the lies and willingness to pretend to believe the lies none of the goblin stuff would matter at all.
Damn, BK…generalize much? Do you really hate women athletes that much and that universally?
I can think of far worse things than sports. Heck, while sports seems trivial to “real” intellectual activities and studies, I am no longer certain that education per se is so universally better. Educated people gave us the bomb, the Vietnam War, and Critical Studies (maybe the critical studies philosophers would have did more for society if they had just played soccer?)
While I do hate women athletes, it’s because I hate athletes. I am indifferent to their sex.