The centrality of differences between men and women
Powerful stuff at the tribunal this morning.
EJ: good morning AR. Peace has descended and we hope no further interruption. Good Morning everyone. Carry on where we left off Michael Gibbon KC lawyer for Mermaids.
MG: morning. Just remind where we got to. We were talking about looking at that doc, particular words and phrases, reference to sexual orientation, adversity to gay and bisexuality people, later discrimination on grounds of sexual orientation. No mention of GC view?
Kate Harris [of LGBA]: that’s correct. IS will know our app to the Charity Commission took a year. No criticism. Comes between lawyers and CC, the difference between us and other is the emphasis on the centrality of differences between men and women. Clearly laid out.
I think what they’re talking about is how LGBA described itself to the Charity Commission, and Gibbon is hinting or saying that they didn’t call themselves gender critical and that was sneaky? He’s hinting or saying that and Harris is saying it wasn’t sneaky, if I understand correctly.
KH: Words missing as we thought this was easily understood by the majority who believe in definitions in the Equality Act.
In other words: yes duh we called ourselves Lesbian Gay Bisexual Alliance and we didn’t feel any need to say BY THE WAY THAT MEANS ACTUAL LESBIANS WHO ARE ACTUALLY WOMEN.
In other other words the burden of proof isn’t on lesbians to remind people what “lesbian” means; it’s on the people who have decided to reverse the meanings of “lesbian” and “gay” and “women” and “men.”
MG: not here to ask about law. On face of doc it doesn’t mention GC or biological sex and no definition legal or otherwise.
KH: no
MG: not suggesting didn’t have convos but ness [need?] to give definitions.
KH: don’t agree. Gave responses following petition. Objects were based on SW, well known for last 30 years and we thought most people would understand SSE based on biology. Using language on EA.
MG: matter down the line of how EA should be understood.MG: presume you saw the application before it was submitted.
KH: yes.
MG: this is ‘benefits of LGBA’ [reads ‘ LGBA position is only 2 sexes and gender is a social construct’]
Wasn’t something arose later, was included in app?
KH: agree
I’m not sure if that’s “Didn’t something arise later?” or “Wasn’t something added later?”
MG: back to 236. Obviously you expressed your view of how words should be understand. You would accept in practice a lot of people use sex and gender interchangeably.
KH: since 2015
MG: is that right since 2015?
KH: issue and why those words form central part of our thinking and activity because of those who wish to remove sex and replace with gender. We see in west Australia, Victoria, Canada.
I’m guessing she said it became an issue around 2015.
KH: Those who campaign for GI replace sex with gender. Our position is that’s very dangerous, confusing and goes against all science and reason.
MG: didn’t need to state it?
KH: we did then. Need to make even clearer [now?]MG: other people have different understanding of SE and lesbian? You saw Paul Roberts and his understanding.
KH: You mean a lesbian can be a man with a penis?
MG: putting it in a neutral way. Lesbian can include someone who is a woman as a result of Gender Recognition [Act]? That’s how Paul Roberts understands it.
KH (long pause)
EJ: is everything all right Miss Harris? We’ll rise for a moment and get KH a tissue and glass of water.
(Court adjourned)
So there you have it. Oddly enough women find it upsetting to be told that a law says men can be women. Lesbians find it upsetting to be told that a law says men can be lesbians.
We find it upsetting, maddening, insulting, outrageous that the historically dominated controlled bullied sex can now not even define itself; that men are going to steal even the sex – but not of course the domination and control and bullying that does with it. Men have found a new and even more sadistic way to bully women: by pretending to be women themselves and then rubbing our noses in it.
I thought maybe it meant that this wasn’t something that arose later, it was there all the time, and included at the time of the application.
Transcripts can be tough to understand sometimes.
The acronyms make it harder to follow.
SW? SSW? EA?
not SSW but SSE
Clever of you to talk about all these “lesbians”, “gays” and “bisexual” people when you’re actually transphobic bigots. Your blatantly obfuscatory use of plain language, and failure to use our Newspeak redefinitions is clear evidence of dogwhistles and hidden agendas. The fact that there’s absolutely no evidence of your Hidden Anti-Trans Agenda is evidence of just how hidden your hidden agenda is!
Jim @ 2 – They do, of course, yes. These are volunteer transcribers, not trained court stenographers with machines, plus they’re listening on Zoom and the sound isn’t always great. The core ones are defined at the top of the page. SW is Stonewall, EA is the Equality Act. SE and SSE have me stumped. I haven’t been able to figure out SE via the context.
SSE appears to refer to “same-sex experience” in academic medical articles.
How odd. Same sex attraction seems more informative and relevant.
Could SE refer to sexual expression? So that someone who “expresses” as a woman (i.e., feminine stereotypes) can be seen as a woman.
I don’t think so, because it doesn’t make any sense in the sentences where it’s used.
Reading the outrageous bit again…my outrage deepens.
A man, interrogating a woman – a lesbian – at a tribunal says “Other people have a different understanding of lesbian.”Can you imagine. Can you imagine a white person saying to the Black head of an organization for the rights of Black people “Other people have a different understanding of Black people”? Meaning, other people consider white people Black if they call themselves Black? Imagine if Ivanka Trump started claiming to be Black. Would progressives be falling all over themselves to agree with her and bully Black people into agreeing too or at least shutting up about their disagreement? CAN YOU?
Sorry, that reply @ 9 sounds abrupt. I thought that might be it while reading the transcript but it didn’t seem to make any sense in the places where it was used.
SSW = South by Southwest, SSE = South by southeast, SE = Southeast. Compass directions I learned from studying Forestry of all things. Probably doesn’t clear things up.
SE = Sexual Expression
SSE = Same Sex Expression.
What’s the source for that? I’m not finding it. It doesn’t make a whole lot of sense.
“In a NEUTRAL way”?!?! That is not “neutral;” that’s simply assuming you’ve won the battle without even putting an army into the field. That’s preemptively declaring victory by fiat. That’s not f*ing “neutral.” That’s the very hostile takeover that lesbians are resisting.
KH’s formulation is far more neutral, in that it uses clearly defined terms:
Much easier to understand. It also has the advantage of laying bare the absurdity of the claim.
Right? “putting it in a neutral way” is a huge part of the insult. HOW IS THAT NEUTRAL??????????
One article used SSE to refer to same-sex encounters, SSA to refer to same-sex attraction. It would make sense for SE then to refer to sexual encounters, but I’m not finding confirmation of that. It is used parenthetically in this chart from the CDC on statistics regarding the number of sexual partners in a lifetime, but it is not defined.
Ophelia @5 ‘SE’ and ‘SSE’ were typos for ‘SO’ (sexual orientation) and ‘SSA’ (same sex attraction) respectively. Tribunal Tweets issued corrections yesterday evening.
Ahhhhh! That explains my confusion. Thanks Richard.