The whole discussion has become so completely unhinged
One of those “everybody’s talking about” items –
I’ll quote the rest so that no one gets Twittersick.
Owen is also a gay man quite stunningly oblivious to just how alarmed many gay men and lesbians are to the direction this is all heading in. And they’re damn right to be alarmed – because people on here who are attracted to the same sex are also told they’re ‘hateful bigots’.
Most political commentators, even the best ones, have their blind spots on certain things. Owen has two. This one… and a pretty bizarre tendency to constantly overlook the hideous, shameful record of Arab and Muslim despots on human rights, women’s rights and gay rights.
And it’s been giving all sorts of organisations wildly, offensively incorrect guidance around the Equality Act. Its behaviour is disgusting and disgraceful. Simple.
See also: Edinburgh Rape Crisis, whose CEO has described rape victims as ‘privileged’ and ‘bigoted’.
As I see it, the views of Jones, Mridul Wadhwa and far too much of the left on this are based on an extraordinarily simplistic, frequently stupid view of the world. In which all groups are placed in a hierarchy, a pecking order, of privilege.
That these groups aren’t just individuals, but in most cases, couldn’t help being born into one or another of them is treated as irrelevant. Most privileged on the list are, of course, rich white men. Then, according to this hideously simplistic prism, come rich white women.
The whole discussion has become so completely unhinged that middle class white women are routinely viewed as much more privileged than white working class men (even though in practice, no-one really knows what ‘middle class’ or ‘working class’ mean any longer).
Then we move further down this stupid list and reach gay and lesbian people, ethnic minorities, refugees… and right at the very bottom, we reach trans people. Who face horrendous levels of discrimination and hate. So, the viewpoint becomes very simple.
“These are the least privileged people in society, so we must automatically support them at all costs. Anyone who disagrees is clearly a hater who want them to suffer”. Any nuances around the issue – the removal of women’s spaces chief among them – are flat out ignored.
Also any pointed questions about how we know trans people are at the very bottom of the stupid list, along with any pointed questions about all trans people, including for instance Caitlyn Jenner? With all the medals, and money, and getting away with killing a woman by rear-ending her car on the PCH?
This isn’t the minor issue some may still view it as. This is completely fundamental. Because women make up half the entire population. If you are a man who goes around telling women what they are allowed to think or say about being a woman, you should be given very short shrift.
Of course, political campaigns conducting their own polls with questions designed to give the answers they want is nothing new. But when Jones claims that most women agree with him, he comes awfully close to outright lying.
He should account for why he routinely ignores the detail contained in the above survey. He essentially pretends it doesn’t exist. Just as he pretends that the rampant misogyny, homophobia and racism among many of the more militant pro-trans voices on here doesn’t exist either.
But it does. And it’s seen on here all the time. Then look at the parallel he and others draw between what’s happening now and what happened to gay and lesbian people in the past. It’s the same thing, right? Wrong. Completely, utterly wrong. In fact, it’s the flat out reverse.
When you’re bullying lesbians who decline to pair up with men who say they are lesbians, you’re doing it wrong.
I think the idea that women have been oppressed, persecuted, harassed, raped, murdered since the dawn of humanity because of their gender, not their sex, is quite barking mad. Here’s a helpful hint: it’s mostly because men are much more physically powerful than women.
That plus the reproductive role.
And throughout history, men have used their much greater physical power to coerce, enslave, attack, assault and rape women: by penetrating their sexual organs against their will. That’s a large part of why so many women will always be wary when meeting a man.
…
It’s also why allowing trans women to compete in elite sport is flat out wrong – and to do so in physical sports based largely on power, quite lunatic in how dangerous it is. I’m waiting until the first woman is killed as a result of this madness – and how it’ll be ignored.
The idea that anyone who disagrees with trans women being allowed to compete with biological women in elite sport is a ‘transphobe’ or a ‘bigot’ for trying to stop women coming to actual physical harm isn’t just disgusting. It shows where this madness has led.
The idea that anyone who disagrees with people with male genitals being allowed inside rape crisis centres is a ‘transphobe’ or a ‘bigot’ – when the women who need those centres are traumatised, terrified and looking for somewhere safe – also shows where this madness has led.
But then, when Rosie Duffield receives constant rape and death threats for holding an opinion based on science and JK Rowling does likewise even when bravely telling her own life story – in which she herself was raped – that again shows where this madness has led.
It’s led to a place of hatred. Of demagoguery. Of extremist ideology trumping all reason. Of language being forced down the throats of half the bloody population because it’s ‘inclusive’ (no: it’s the very opposite).
Well said.
When all you have is a hammer…
And I mean that quite straightforwardly: they only have denunciations, and rely wholly on them, because they don’t have a coherent theory.
It’s being forced down everyone’s throat, all the time. Only there’s an angelic chorus insisting that it’s simply polite to use this language, to rewrite one’s own perception of reality, to humour trans people by using their ‘preferred’ pronouns (when trans activists have long since moved on to insist that these pronouns aren’t ‘preferred’, they are ‘correct’).
It is very much like the milquetoast nonbelievers humouring the religious — how could we ‘militant’ atheists be so atrociously rude as to say out loud that God doesn’t exist; don’t we know how meaningful the notion of God is to so many people, how many people it will hurt to hear that their delusions are simply not true, etc. etc. These well-meaning people never seem to stop and realise that they are patronising and actively helping other people deceive and delude themselves, all the while thinking they’re doing a good thing and showing just how tolerant and sensible and good they are.
Seth #2 wrote:
I was about to point out that very thing, the Little People argument that those with faith are especially fragile and vulnerable, incapable of dealing with reality without their comforting âTruthsâ and what is sacred to them must therefore be treated as sacred to us. In this analogy, however, it seems to have been combined with the honor culture mentality in which blasphemy is treated swiftly and harshly. Itâs a situation in which the atheists have gone beyond accomodationism and become participants.
âIâm not religious/transgender myself, but when I imagine that I am, I realize how excruciating it must be to have your God/your Gender Identity questioned. Everyone needs faith. Thus, reason and empathy together lead me to stand behind the Most Vulnerable.â
Why are trans people âthe least privilegedâ in society? Advocates cite inflated statistics on violence, but I suspect itâs at least partly because trans lives are wrapped up in claims which are entirely subjective. They do not have the advantage of knowing their beliefs would eventually be arrived at and supported even if they didnât constantly assert them and fight for them. Itâs eternal battle, as long as theyâre not granted automatic affirmation and support. And nobody can count on that.
ââWhen I use a word,â Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, âit means just what I choose it to meanâneither more nor less.â
ââThe question is,â said Alice, âwhether you can make words mean so many different things.â
ââThe question is,â said Humpty Dumpty, âwhich is to be masterâthat’s all.â
Lewis Carroll: Through the Looking-Glass
It is very much like the milquetoast nonbelievers humouring the religious â how could we âmilitantâ atheists be so atrociously rude as to say out loud that God doesnât exist; donât we know how meaningful the notion of God is to so many people, how many people it will hurt to hear that their delusions are simply not true, etc. etc.
what is amazing and disturbing to me is that many atheist bloggers are actually proud to NOT fall into this trap. yet when it comes to the irrational claims of the trans religion…not a peep (or vocal support)
Oddzilla, I remember having that exact quote thrown at me for sticking with the dictionary definition of ‘woman’.
It’s difficult to have a hinged discussion when so many people stick their fingers in their ears and say ‘NO DEBATE!’
It may have been Dawkins who first quipped, “atheist butters,” in reference to those who say, “I’m an atheist, but,” and go on to say some obsequious bullshit about their own moral superiority to “militant” atheists in not openly criticizing religion or the religious.
And that’s the thing: it’s not amazing at all. It’s entirely mundane and banal. People want to be liked, and they will undercut and stab others in the back in order to get their hands that delicious social standing. It’s a root survival impulse, and merely not believing in sky fairies is insufficient to the task of shifting eons of evolution.