An underclass of women who are men
This is the kind of thing that makes this conflict so maddening.
First, “I’ve also discovered today, which I did not know, that @MForstater has publicly said women should be denied access to women’s spaces if other women think they look like men.”
Wrong. There’s no “think they look like men” about it. We all publicly say that men should be denied access to [at least some] women’s spaces. That’s it, that’s the say. Men should stay out of women’s spaces. It’s not so much “denied access” as “don’t ask in the first place.” It’s just no. Way too many men are deeply weird about women (see: Wayne Couzens), and we don’t want them in places where we pee or change tampons or nurse babies or recover from rape or heal from major surgery. We want privacy from men when we need it. It’s simple, and it has nothing to do with “if other women think they look like men.”
And that “has publicly said women should be denied access to women’s spaces” bit is the maddening ploy – pretending trans women really are women and that that’s obvious and that everyone accepts it and that there’s just nothing to discuss. It allows her to accuse us of being meanies to women, which is stupid but also tragically effective.
Two, “I can’t support the creation of an underclass of women who have no safe space away from men because they aren’t what people like @MForstater think a “woman” should look like.” The same all over again but 100 times more so. They aren’t women. Men are not an underclass of women. Women are the underclass here, not men.
It’s so gullible, and smug, and taunting, and bullying, and obnoxious.
Also Coppola had blocked Maya and then she did tweet after tweet tagging her after blocking her. What’s the point of that? To get her fans to bully Maya, presumably.
Class traitors. They suck.
One of the accusations making the TRA rounds is that the GC pushback against transwomen in women’s safe spaces has resulted in masculine-looking women getting bullied because other women think they’re trans. Liberal feminist and LGBTQ+ sites have interviews and articles with titles like “Cis Woman With Short Hair Told ‘You Don’t Belong Here!’ By Angry TERF in Public Bathroom.” Kathleen Stock was even asked about the possibility that some women with strong features would be challenged, and said something to the effect that it was the smaller price to pay. This made them go ballistic.
So I wouldn’t rule out the possibility that, when Coppola talks about “an underclass of women who have no safe space away from men because they aren’t what people like (Maya) think a ‘woman’ should look like” she does, in fact, mean women. Not transwomen. This is exactly what I was told by people who were arguing that the gender critical position was in favor of women conforming to girly-girly stereotypes — that masculine-women were being deliberately targeted. They were going to become pariahs, spat upon and thrown out unless they did everything they could to look feminine. The TERF world would have all women conforming to gender stereotypes. It’s the plan.
Just when you think they can’t come up with a stranger argument, they beat it.
It’s the kind of argument a child makes. Or a politician. “My opponent wants to do X, but did you know that doing X requires doing things that make X possible? The very thought!”
Like, what is the thought process here? “There ought to be spaces reserved for women. But don’t you dare do anything to ensure that only women enter those spaces.” How are we to keep men out? Rely entirely on the honor system and let in everyone who claims entrance? The whole point is to protect women from dishonorable men. Wait until a bad actor does violence to a woman in such a space to kick him out? That’s too late by definition.
Seriously. Explain it to me like I’ve got a learning impediment.
I’m once again noticing that the word ‘women’ is perfectly acceptable when referring to males; it’s only taboo or problematic when used to refer to females. I expect that it won’t be long before any time we see the word ‘women’ in the media (or on Twitter) it will refer to males.
This is exactly where the “TWAW, TMAM (& NBIAV)” mantra gets us. If you allow that men who say they are women literally are women, it allows TRAs to make these stupid arguments. They are right. There are “women” who I think should ‘t be allowed in the women’s changing rooms, domestic violence shelters, sporting events. But I mean “women” who are male, and I call them men. Because that’s what they are.
Of course, I am also in favour of letting “men” into women’s spaces, if those “men” are female. I’m an absolute safeguarding nightmare, it seems.
The underclass Coppola is talking about is in fact trans identified females. Coppola is pulling what Forstater calls “the transman gotcha,” which is precisely what her essay is about.
Here’s a link to Forstater’s piece: https://a-question-of-consent.net/2020/05/23/the-transman-gotcha/amp/?__twitter_impression=true
Here’s the bit that Coppola is quoting:
Coppola is objecting to the last two sentences, which refer to TiFs. This is her underclass of women who look like men, not TiMs.
Here’s the next part, which Coppola does not quote:
This is like creationists who quote Darwin’s comment about the apparent absurdity of natural selection’s ability to produce eyes, without including his proposed evolutionary pathway.
@YNNB#5:
In order to be playing the “Transman’s Gotcha” when referring to the creation of an underclass of women denied access to women’s spaces because other women think they look like men,” Coppola would have to be counting transmen as women instead of men. But that’s not how the Transman’s Gotcha works. The point is that Transmen who’ve undergone hormones and surgery are men and should be considered men, even given that it’s important women not be uncomfortable in their safe spaces. Transmen don’t want to be in the Woman’s Room, so are not being denied access by Mean Girls.
It’s also unlikely that Coppola would create an argument to the effect that transmen aren’t men, but an underclass of women. TMAM.
I suspect it’s Maya’s paragraph
here which is Coppola’s problem, in that androgynous or masculine women who WANT to be in the Women’s Room are going to be denied entry because they’re erroneously perceived to be men and therefore according to Mean Girl Maya it’s “not unreasonable” to bully them.
I’ve even heard TRAs advance the idea that Transwomen should be allowed access to safe spaces because it kindly relieves burly or butch women from the oppression of being abused and insulted. It’s a solution which helps CIS women!
@Sastra #6
Okay, that makes sense.
Sastra @ #1:
Like gender non-conforming women and girls have never been yelled at for being in the “wrong” restroom before.
When we were kids back in the 1970s, my sister, the quintessential tomboy, got yelled at plenty of times in public restrooms. “You’re in the wrong bathroom!” “This is the girls’ room!” and variations.
@Karen the Chemist;
Apparently it’s increased because of the trans issue. Women who are on high alert may be jumping to conclusions more quickly, trying to take a stand. Which is a shame, of course.
The TRAs blame the over-reactive women, of course, and wouldn’t think of considering the possibility that their new agenda might bear some of the burden for any increase here.
What a complete dog’s breakfast.