The weight of years and years of abuse
Victoria Derbyshire talked to Jess Phillips about it a few days ago.
‘Sometimes I blame myself for this – for not having done enough to stop it’ @jessphillips.
Police are investigating UKIP candidate Carl Benjamin after he saying ‘he might rape’ the MP pic.twitter.com/huVW5KIQQT
— Victoria Derbyshire (@VictoriaLIVE) May 7, 2019
‘I cried in the street in Birmingham city centre – I felt the weight of years and years of abuse’ @jessphillips.
Police are investigating UKIP candidate Carl Benjamin after he saying ‘he might rape’ the MP. pic.twitter.com/AeAA7elAuD
— Victoria Derbyshire (@VictoriaLIVE) May 7, 2019
And this is what so much is about. When men mock women for getting upset about a hand on their knee (and why shouldn’t they?), it isn’t just the hand on the knees. It’s all the hands on all the knees. It’s the butt pats. It’s the grabby pussy. It’s the lewd comments, the leering, the dismissive remarks, the objectification, the ignoring of the skills and talents, and, of course, the violent threats and actions…all this characterizes the lives of women. And no, not just beautiful women, not just young women, not just hot women, not just women who dress sexy.
It all adds up to exhaustion.
I do not think that the evolution of our species has equipped us to handle power: either as exercisers of it, or as subjects of it. Most lives since Homo sapiens departed from the ancestral line have been spent entirely in small groups like the hunter-gatherer band and the pre-industrial village,, where everyone knows everyone else very well and there is little ‘stranger danger’.
I am reminded of that Kurt Weil song line ‘He wants no servant under him, and no-one over his head.’
Best way to go, IMHO.
The best advice I can offer women who feel powerless and resent it is to enrol in a course in self-defence. It commonly does wonders for morale.
Yeah, thanks. Way to give advice. This is the same advice women have received all my life. I have been to dozens of these, usually required by bosses who seemed unwilling to make any sort of move toward diminishing sexual aggressiveness on the part of their male employees.
It did nothing to improve my morale. It did the opposite. Why? Because in the end, the teachers were honest. Nothing you do will make a difference unless you are able to, and prepared to, do some serious damage. Their best advice? Don’t fight.
Yeah, helped my morale a lot.
This advice reminded me of this series of suggestions: https://canyourelate.org/2011/05/24/rape-prevention-tips/
Ugh, the doodz with the self-defence rubbish!
Guess what, doodz? We are the half of the population that grow up being told: “WHEN (not if) some guy grabs you, fight like a screaming banshee. It won’t do you any immediate good whatsoever, but when someone finds your body, it’ll be easier to get enough forensic evidence to (maybe, eventually) catch the guy”.
Doodz that keep giving women/girls their “good advice”? You have absolutely no idea what we already live with. Everyone keeps telling us what we NEED to do. Nobody ever seems to consider maybe having a word with the actual problem, though. Y’know, the men who are commiting all this violence. No, it’s all about blaming the victims. STOP IT. You sound like complete idiots, like it’s honestly never even occured to you that we’re not the problem. If you’re so very desperate to lecture someone about what they should be doing, how about you try lecturing the MEN. Or do you realise that such an action might have some consequences for you? Unlike wasting womens’ time?
Iknklast:
Not much I can do about that, as I am self-employed and not anyone’s boss.
But after training in a powerful Japanese martial art for 27 years, I can say that I have encountered numerous women in various dojos who I would bet could handle themselves very well in any nasty street situation, even against multiple attackers..
I originally got into self-defence after an encounter with a half-drunk ex-professional wrestler with whom I had a disagreement over politics. (He graciously allowed his frazzled wife to restrain him.)
I enrolled in my first self-defence class the very next day.
Basic principle: after your first class, you are better prepared than you were before it. After your second, you are better prepared still. And so on…
cluecat:
With all due respect, that is not victim blaming. It is an honest attempt at victim prevention. And as long as you keep yourself convinced that you are powerless, you probably will be.
OK, you’re still not getting it. Why aren’t you listening to what we’re saying?
Our behaviour is not the problem. Everyone loves lecturing us about what WE need to do, all the time. But the problem isn’t us. Do you think you could try actually understanding what women keep saying? Just stop, and think about a completely different life experience to yours.
Hi cluecat.
My aplogies. I should have elaborated rather than just dropped a link. These were the suggestions I was thinking of:
1. Don’t put drugs in women’s drinks.
2. When you see a woman walking by herself, leave her alone.
3. If you pull over to help a woman whose car has broken down, remember not to rape her.
4. If you are in an elevator and a woman gets in, don’t rape her.
5. When you encounter a woman who is asleep, the safest course of action is to not rape her.
6. Never creep into a woman’s home through an unlocked door or window, or spring out at her from between parked cars, or rape her.
7. Remember, people go to the laundry room to do their laundry. Do not attempt to molest someone who is alone in a laundry room.
8. Use the Buddy System! If it is inconvenient for you to stop yourself from raping women, ask a trusted friend to accompany you at all times.
9. Carry a rape whistle. If you find that you are about to rape someone, blow the whistle until someone comes to stop you.
10. Don’t forget: Honesty is the best policy. When asking a woman out on a date, don’t pretend that you are interested in her as a person; tell her straight up that you expect to be raping her later. If you don’t communicate your intentions, the woman may take it as a sign that you do not plan to rape her.
Omar @ 2 – you say “The best advice I can offer women” – but didn’t you notice that nobody was asking for advice?
And that the subject of this post isn’t physical attacks? That what Derbyshire and Phillips and Benjamin are talking about is sadistic verbal abuse and harassment? Yes the abuse is enacted by way of references to physical attack, but that doesn’t make it fixable via martial arts training.
The point is that the monstrous Carl Benjamin enjoys taunting women with “jokes” about raping them, and that he’s a Ukip candidate, and that MP Jess Phillips is one of the targets of his sadistic taunting. Self-defense training just couldn’t be more irrelevant to that.
Omar, I think I can safely say that I was no better equipped to deal with rape after my first – or my fortieth – self defense course than before. I was told to keep my head up, my eyes forward, always carry my keys – because a woman who looks weak is a target. Yeah. Because not looking at a guy who is harassing you is going to keep you safe.
And as Ophelia said, it isn’t all about self-defense. It’s about the tiny drip, drip, drip, drip of mental and emotional torment, the verbal equivalent of a water torture dripping on you constantly from the wolf whistles, the leers, the grabs, the jokes, the talking over, the interrupting, the exhortations to smile, to look pretty, to brighten up the world, the hands on the knees, the hands on the butts, the oh so casual brushing up against, the ignoring, the failure to promote, the mansplaining, the constant images of women as objects whenever we open magazines or turn on the television or go to movies – in short, the fact that simply living our life in an ordinary way is an obstacle course. Keeping my head high and my keys in my hand will not do anything for that – nor will martial arts, which is not an option for all women (or men, either). Nor should we have to make that choice.
OB:
As well they might. On the face of it and IMHO, the pathetic Benjamin has made a threat: the ‘assault’ part of ‘assault and battery’. NB: I am not a lawyer, so please do not rely on that in any legal or court action, now or in the future. Nor should any participant in this online conversation take it as advice. (One cannot be too careful these days, I find.)
iknklast finished her litany at #1 with the bare and very understandable statement:
I realise my error now. I should have said something like ‘Gee, that’s too bad. It must be horrible for you. I know it was for me; but please note, I speak from one single childhood experience of attempted molestation and from growing up in a household subject to episodes of domestic violence. Believe me, you have my sympathy. But at the same time, I won’t offer any advice, because you have not requested any, and in my experience offers of unsolicited advice can result in resentment and even lead on to an all-in online shitfight. .And in the unlikely event that you do ask my advice, could you be so kind as to put it in writing, and post it to me in case this site, or the whole internet goes down for some reason? (Nuclear war, Trump megalomania, comet impact, etc.) Just for my records, and in case ever needed.. I will file it away with YNnB’s list, of which incidentally I have also printed off 2 copies; one which I have already stuck to the inside of my front door ready for consultation and review before I exit the house, and the other is already on the steering wheel of my car, for reference when stopped at traffic lights, after parking etc.’
Yep. THAT’S what I should have said. Apologies.
;-)
Your Names not Bruce?, You weren’t the problem. I don’t follow random links without context, but the copied info you have placed here is pretty much what I was arguing.
It’s Omar who wasn’t getting it, probably still doesn’t get why more than one woman rolled her eyes at his complete lack of understanding. There’s a whole A4 page of explanation about why what he said is spectacularly unhelpful, but I figured I shouldn’t clutter up someone else’s comment section just because some dood wasn’t listening.
If a woman is groped and she then defends herself successfully…
A) she is still the victim of groping. Learning how to fight does not prevent the action which instigated the fight, though you might argue that it reduces subsequent gropings. But then there is the chance that it increases the odds of some other retaliation from the groper as payback for the thwarted advance / injured pride.
B) In many situations, physical retaliation is not advisable. If a woman’s employer pats her on the arse and she retaliates, she could easily be fired. Especially if there was no witness to the groping that is willing to speak against their own employer, or no witness at all.
In either event, the only thing that can reduce sexual harassment and similar is if the aggressors refrain from sexually harassing. The onus to change behaviour can only reasonably be placed on the aggressor and not the victim.
Noting that the onus is not on the victim is not the same as saying that the victim is powerless.
Cluecat @#12: Noted.
Holms:
Of course. No argument there. BUT PLEASE NOTE: I am not carrying a brief for gropers, nor am I particularly confident that the groper in question will respond to counselling. But I am an advocate in such situations for victims of such behaviour canvassing all the options and power they have, individually or in consultation with others, and acting according that; options and power which she might not fully realise are there.
BUT PLEASE NOTE AGAIN: it is in the groper’s interest if he wants to avoid changing his own behaviour to do whatever he can to prevent his victim gaining consciousness of what power she has, and to prevent her from increasing that power. (Akiro Kurosawa’s classic film ‘Seven Samurai’ has precisely that theme.)
Based on the information given here, I suggest the victim’s options include: 1. Asking the groper politely to desist; and if that doesn’t work 2. Going to the groper’s superior and requesting assistance in the matter; 3. As the victim telling her own superior that she will quit if the groper does not desist . (She has to mean it. If she holds a key position and will be difficult to replace that increases her power as victim in the situation, but conversely if she will be easily replaced this will carry less weight.) 4. Asking around the workplace to see if the groper has any other victims, and suggesting they start acting as a group, and as confrontationally as necessary; 5. Telling the groper IN A VERY LOUD VOICE TO PISS OFF next time he does it; 6. Telling the groper IN HER LOUDEST POSSIBLE VOICE TO PISS OFF BEFORE SHE CALLS THE COPS next time he does it; 7. Calling the cops; 8. Contacting the groper’s wife, mother, girlfriend, daughter/s, aunt, mistress or the whole lot of them (ostensibly) to ask their advice, after describing the situation; 9. Getting hold of a serious, no-nonsense well-trained dog to call upon as backup in confrontation situations. (I know one woman who used this technique against a would-be [male] home invader; very successful she was too. He backed off and cleared out quick smart.) Explain to her superior why she found it necessary to bring the dog (pit bull, Alsatian, bulldog, Doberman or Queensland blue heeler [which latter would be my own recommendation and choice]).
Alternatively to all that, she as victim could find some support group to join, and urge the members to pool their resources and buy media space for the specific purpose of suggesting, urging and demanding that men cease all unconsensual familiarity: see how she goes with that. She could even quote your own remark: “the only thing that can reduce sexual harassment and similar is if the aggressors refrain from sexually harassing. The onus to change behaviour can only reasonably be placed on the aggressor and not the victim.”. With your permission of course.
And I without hesitation would wish her every possible success.
None of which has anything to do with the subject matter of the post. A popular internet troll (male) keeps verbally bullying an MP (female) which inspires his thousands of followers to do likewise. The troll is now a political candidate. All these lists of What Women Should Do To Gropers have nothing to do with that. It’s a complete change of subject, as well as an insistence on giving advice where no advice was sought and where several women have now pretty clearly said we don’t want advice.
OB: “None of which has anything [?] to do with the subject matter of the post. ”
?
” It’s a complete change of subject, [?] as well as an insistence on giving advice where no advice was sought and where several women have now pretty clearly said we don’t want advice.”
Noted; ref. iknklast @#1. “It all adds up to exhaustion.”