Questions are rarely settled without debate
Kenan Malik points out that discussion is more productive than silencing:
On perhaps no issue has the question of what can or cannot be debated been more sharply contested than that of transgenderism. How should society, and the law, look upon people who were born male but see themselves as female? Trying to answer that question has led to bitter confrontations between trans activists, determined to secure full rights for trans people, and “gender critical” feminists worried that the notion of what it is to be a woman is being transformed to the detriment of women’s rights.
The thing is, those two items don’t have to be in tension, and they shouldn’t be. Gender critical feminists don’t want to deny trans people full rights. It hasn’t generally been considered a “right” to be able to impose one’s own personal “identity” on the rest of the world. That still isn’t considered a “right” except when it comes to a gender that differs from a sex. It’s a new and peculiar “right,” this right to be validated as the gender that doesn’t match your sex. It’s becoming apparent as time goes on that such a right does in fact conflict with women’s struggle to obtain equal rights with men. If affirmative action for women (hire more women, invite more women to speak, give awards to women) starts applying to men who identify as women…that’s a tension.
Woman’s Place is a feminist group dedicated to defending the idea of women-only spaces. Its meetings have been disrupted by protesters and banned by local councils as “providing a platform for hate speech”. When another feminist group, Liverpool ReSisters, put up stickers proclaiming “Women don’t have penises” on Anthony Gormley statues on Crosby beach, they were investigated by the police for possible hate crimes and condemned by the city’s mayor, Joe Anderson, for their “hateful” actions.
The Canadian feminist Meghan Murphy recently tweeted “men aren’t women” and asked: “What is the difference between a man and a trans woman?” Twitter shut down her account for “violating our rules against hateful conduct” and forced her to delete her tweets.
The issue is not whether Stock or Murphy or the ReSisters are right in their views. I agree with some of their arguments, disagree with others. The issue, rather, is whether it is valid for them to raise the issues they do or whether the very act of doing so constitutes “hatred”.
There are, obviously, ways of talking about trans people (and any category of people) that do constitute hatred, but it doesn’t follow and it isn’t the case that all discussion of what we mean by “gender” and whether or not anyone’s identity can be treated as binding on everyone else constitutes hatred.
To suggest that the kinds of questions posed by Stock or Murphy should not be asked is to suggest, contra Joubert, that it is better to settle questions than debate them. The trouble is, questions are rarely settled without debate. Stock and Murphy raise certain issues not because they are bigots but because of the realities facing women in society. Whatever one thinks of their arguments, these realities will not disappear simply by labelling critical feminists “hatemongers”.
Is there a formula that debate plus time equals settled? There isn’t literally but there can be in practice, to some extent. There can be ratchets in what is still debatable and what isn’t, although strong enough pressure (in the form of Trumps and Bannons and the like) can break even the ratchets – but the ratchets don’t drop into place overnight. I would like it if it were not seen as debatable whether or not women get to work at Google, but we’re not there yet. It’s way too early in the process for any dogma on “gender identity” to be settled.
I mentioned a couple of days ago about the Auckland Gay Pride parade and how Police had been banned from marching in uniform, largely at the behest of trans activists. One of the groups that protested this action was a feminist organisation that could probably be described as ‘radical’ in the 2nd wave sense (I don’t know a lot about them to be honest). A decent percentage of their members are lesbian and would in the normal course of events march in the parade. Now Larissa Wall, an MP in the Labour Party and part of the current ruling coalition government, has been recorded saying that she doesn’t want any fucking TERFS in the parade anyway.
Frankly, shameful. Utterly and deeply shameful.
Wow. That’s horrifying.
Let’s see, drag queens can’t march. Police can’t march. Lesbians can’t march. Pretty soon the gay pride parade will be nothing but a bunch of gay men (those who are deemed acceptable) and trans women. Then, of course, they’ll need to find a way to kick out the gay men, but kicking men out of public spaces is actually a lot harder than kicking out women.
One article on the Auckland Gay Pride parade.
Is it just me, or have certain tennets of trans ideology met with more rapid acceptance than one might expect? I know I’m noticing the effects of my own aging on my perception of time (incipient curmudgeonly relativistic time dilation), but things seem to have moved very quickly. The squeaky wheel may get the grease, but there are wheels that have been squeaking for a lot longer (say WOMEN, for example) that have not gotten their timely share of “lubrication.” To further mix metaphors, the extreme trans activists come across as queue jumping dogs in the manger, preventing women from retaining (or gaining in the first place) rights they’ve been demanding for ever.
I’m surprised at the number of governmental and business bodies that have accepted/swallowed/caved in to trans ideologies demands without much in the way of question or debate. I can’t imagine it’s strictly out of the goodness of their hearts, or wanting to appear to do the right thing, because many of these same governments and businesses have been glacially slow or downright shitty at that sort of empathic response in the past. I’m not sure that all these institutions could learn to be so responsive to pressure and demands that quickly by simply learning from past mistakes. I can see some elements on the Left vying to be the mostest, bestest and wokest tof rans allies, but not so much government and business. What’s behind this slight, unexpected, change of gears in the workings of power? Are trans rights a way of undercutting feminism that these non-Left institutions have latched onto, just like New Atheism used women’s rights as a cudgel against Islam (and to a lesser degree Christianity) but quickly forgot about them domestically and within its own organizations once their rhetorical value had been spent against foreign, brown theists? Just curious…
Correction: Louisa Wall BTW
YNnB, I don’t have the link to hand, but a few months back there was an article about the extraordinary amount of money being poured into Trans groups from high-net worth individuals. A couple of whom were trans and the majority of the rest gay men. Add to that that amongst progressives and more tolerant members of western society a fair head of steam has been built up getting to the point of equal rights for gay people. I guess for many people who don’t obsess over details about how women are affected, it all seems like an obvious cause to support.
And indeed, I think most of us do support the broad brush of it. trans people should not be discriminated against in terms of housing, health care, jobs, access to services, the right to marry, where they can shop etc etc. Unquestioned access to women’s sanctuary spaces and women affirmative programs is another matter. Putting trans women with sex crime convictions in women’s prisons is just plain dangerous. Plus when some of those trans women are actively attacking women’s spaces and any discussion about this is all untenable…
Yes. And not just non-Left, but the Left is finally able to indulge in misogyny without consequences, which may explain one reason why so many on the Left have latched onto trans- issues (that, and the fact that certain elements of the Left want to be the wokest, the most compassionate, and the most progressive, and women’s rights are sssooooo 1970s – or, fix that, 1870s). Women can now be cast as the oppressor, thereby getting rid of their status as oppressed, so no one has to do anything to help them anymore. In fact, spitting on them is encouraged. Or slapping them…even by people who disavow slapping Nazis. Call a woman a TERF, you can do just about anything you like to her.
Ophelia, that article link is showing it doesn’t exist.
Oops, link fixed.
Rob @ 6 – ah that’ll explain why Google didn’t find her.
YNNB, It’s not just you. Others have noticed that too.
I know of one sociologist looking at it, but all I’ve seen from him so far is a discussion of funding.
https://4thwavenow.com/2018/05/25/the-open-society-foundations-the-transgender-movement/
It is amazing how mainstream transgender ideology has become (and how its activists continue to claim marginalization.) Someday historians and sociologists are going to have a field day piecing together the factors that enabled it.
As for that NZ Herald article, I note that Mike Hosking, who appears in the video embedded, is a right-wing and frequently sexist and reactionary hack. I don’t know who wrote the article as I couldn’t see a by-line. If Hosking wrote it, that’s proof that even a stopped clock can be right.
The article does provide a link to an RNZ interview of one of the parade organisers with Kim Hill. Kim Hill is a great interviewer. She is always well prepared and asks incisive questions, letting her subjects speak. Well worth listening to (just in general, not just this subject).
Only if discussion is ever allowed.
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I wonder if trans issues are sort of “piggybacking” on the recent progress in gay rights. In the space of about a decade, we went from Republicans deliberately putting anti-gay marriage initiatives on the ballot in 2004 to boost turnout for W’s re-election, to a solid majority favoring gay marriage. I think a lot of people (myself including) felt like it was the civil rights struggle of our time, and it felt important to be on the right side of it. I think that same line of thinking — that in ten years or so, everyone will wonder why anyone opposed it — may be at work here. Which is in many respects a good thing, of course, if it means people aren’t being denied jobs or housing, etc. But if it means every argument is being accepted without analysis let alone pushback….
Yes, I think so. There’s that not wanting to be a mindless bigot thing. I thought of it that way for some time, and suppressed most questions. Not all, but most. I remember once objecting to the label “cis-het,” which seemed stupid because it’s two different things so why hyphenate as if they go together? I also just plain thought “cis” was stupid but I didn’t say so. Until later.
Maybe to prove a point, feminists on Twitter could complain about transactivists who label them as ‘cis’ when they themselves reject the description. Misgendering, you see.
Not to get transactivists *banned* for ‘misgendering’, but so we can find out what ridiculous excuses Twitter would make for banning feminists but not transactivists for basically the same infraction.
Ophelia (and others), this is the website of the group Louisa Wall was describing as Terfs. Make up your own minds.
https://speakupforwomen.nz/