Aren’t we allowed to make up new stories?
Belinda Luscombe interviewed Jordan Peterson for TIME. One thing they talked about was Peterson’s view that Disney’s Frozen is propaganda, as opposed to for instance Sleeping Beauty, which instead is Archetype. Luscombe asks him why he calls Frozen “deeply propagandistic.”
It attempted to write a modern fable that was a counter-narrative to a classic story like, let’s say, Sleeping Beauty — but with no understanding whatsoever of the underlying archetypal dynamics. You could say that Sleeping Beauty was raised out of her unconsciousness via a delivering male. Another way of reading the story is that unconsciousness requires active consciousness as an antidote. And the unconsciousness is symbolized in that particular story by femininity and active consciousness by masculinity. I could hardly sit through Frozen. There was an attempt to craft a moral message and to build the story around that, instead of building the story and letting the moral message emerge. It was the subjugation of art to propaganda, in my estimation.
Awesome. So a story that paints women as unconsciousness and men as active consciousness – note the active, which reminds us that women are passive as well as comatose – is not propaganda at all, it’s Underlying Archetypal Dynamics, while rejecting that not very flattering portrait of women is the subjugation of art to propaganda. How convenient.
She asks him if it’s more propagandistic than say The Little Mermaid, he says the old movies are based on folktales that go back 13,000 years.
Aren’t we allowed to make up new stories?
Not for political reasons.
Oh? Who made up that rule?
God, what a yutz. No, we have to take all folktales as they are, no questioning allowed, no parody allowed, no improvement allowed, no counter-stories allowed, because the only “political reasons” permitted are the ones that are already in place.
When I retire for the third and final time, I want to write a coffee table book about how cartoons and animation are the perfect time capsule for presenting a clear and pure representation of the cultural mores of their time. This is clearest when you look at the attitude toward women that is on display. The Little Mermaid is one of the worst in my opinion. The moral is pretty clear: To get that man of your dreams you have to break away from your father’s domination, give up everything that makes you unique and not say a word. Gotta love Disney films for kids…
And don’t even get me started on Popeye…
Do get started on Popeye!
Dogs, but Peterson can babble pretentiously, can’t he? And people take this poseur seriously?
Peterson’s distinction between propaganda and archetypes reminds me of George Carlin’s distinction between shit and stuff
Er, Frozen is also based on a folk tale? How stupid is this dude?
BKiSA, that question’s rhetorical, isn’t it? Because there may not be enough space on the internet for a full answer.
“Beauty and the Beast “was written in the 18th century and “The Little Mermaid” in the 19th. Both are fictions created by known authors as is Pinocchio. It would appear that when it comes to fairy tales, one can make this stuff up.
Ugh. Earlier this week I got an email from an old friend telling me how he was really into Jordan Peterson and the Red Pill on Reddit. Let’s just say that some ranting ensued.
Screechy Monkey, my son has been arguing with a family member who is totally into Red Pill and MRA. He finally had to block a young man who had been a favorite cousin of his because of his total immersion (the cousin, not my son’s) into this nastiness.
“…folktales that go back 13,000 years.”
So from millennia before metallurgy, agriculture and writing itself? Are we able to carbon date oral traditions now? Not saying that there aren’t folk tales that are this old, but how does he know it’s the case with these stories? I don’t think there were all that many castles around at the end of the last Ice Age, the settings at least have changed if he’s claiming this degree of antiquity. Did Prince Charming arrive on the back of a mammoth in the original? Did he fight off sabre toothed cats? How many variations on those tales would have popped up along the way over that time? How many of those changes might have introduced fundamental changes to the basic meaning of the tale? How many stories retained their original meaning through the shift from hunter-gatherer cultures through pastoral and agrarian societies up to centralized imperial states? How many brand new stories were introduced along the way? Frankenstein can be seen a modern, scientific-medical retelling of the biblical story of the creation of humans, with God recast as man, Adam recast as the Creature. Is it messing with archetypes? Is that allowed?
Look at all the variations of the Jesus story that popped up in just the first few hundred years after the time he was alleged to have lived? None of them were propaganda at all, were they? How many were destroyed as heretical? Now imagine the range of variations there would be for tales that have had an eleven thousand year head start without any official editing or excision by a religious/political authority with the power of torture and death at its disposal for the enforcement of a strictly orthodox interpretation. Stories like Snow White, Little Red Riding Hood, The Three little Pigs have variations. Which is the “real”, “official” story?
Considering that in the original, Ariel ends up dead and turning into sea foam, I’m not sure one can say that the Little Mermaid is really any more “faithful” than Frozen, which was itself based on the Ice Queen.
The funny thing is, if one looks at anything around the making of Frozen, apparently the whole story evolved out of empathy for Elsa’s plight, with her originally being cast as the villain but the writers finding her far too interesting as a sympathetic character to stick with that.
Jordan is essentially calling for the exact thing he’s criticizing – maintaining stories as just so in order to appease his conservative political sensitivities, rather than letting them evolve naturally.
I’ve always enjoyed Sherri S. Teppers A Plague of Angels for a tale about Archetypes and Propoganda and how they impact on society in general and women in particular.
Vaguely Jungian bilge. Why does it receive any respect at this point? Mythical ‘deep pasts,’ selective assignment of Archetypal Status to preferred clichés. The ugly undertone of völkisch racism/sexism.
John the Drunkard, thank you.
Jungian theory does the same thing trans activist theory does: it reifies gender stereotypes while giving lip service to undermining them.
That’s one reason I left Jungian therapy and the belief system behind it back in the 1980s. Well, that, and the whole “there’s no fucking evidence for any of this, it’s all sheer speculation” thing.
Joseph Campbell can bite me, too.
If science were performed in the fashion Peterson wants us to manage the arts, we’d still all be standing around, refusing to look through Gallileo’s telescope.
Some of us are (not anyone on this site, but…way too many).