RJW – I actually don’t like big dogs, and I’m not fond of dogs (I had a rather scary experience as a child and no amount of therapy has made me change my mind). I do like dogs one on one, if they are my own dog that I have grown fond of, and I love dogs as a group in terms of cute pictures and so forth. So…I’m not sure where I fall on that spectrum.
The problem with dogs, is of course, their human pack leaders and lack of, or poor training. One necessary condition is that people should be smarter than their dogs, not all dog owners are, unfortunately. I like dogs of all sizes and shapes, although German Shepherds are at the apex. My wife and I raised Shepherds from pups and consequently we had no significant behavioral problems. Also they were not in any danger of being monstered by some idiot’s badly trained canine. Unfortunately I’m now too old and disabled for Shepherds, I have two rescue dogs, a staffy X and a tiny poodle cross. Rescue dogs come with baggage. The staffy, when I first adopted him was afraid of men, feet and children. I’m sometimes complimented on how well trained my dogs are, they understand hand signals, amazing. Actually they have been trained to a minimum standard.
I have to admit to some concern when I take my dogs for a walk, particularly if we encounter dogs for the first time. My poodle is more of less defenceless, so when I see some owner lose control of their retreiver or setter which then gallops in my direction, I’m rather wary. Most are just friendly clowns, but not all.
I’ve stopped giving unsolicited advice as it’s usually not welcome
tiggerthewing,
I have only anecdotal evidence, such as, “Get your fucking dog away from me”.
I wasn’t a huge fan of dogs when I took on this job, but a succession of three Labs has made me one – except actually the first one did that almost immediately, and the rest was just confirmation.
RJW, it was actually a German shepherd that I had problems with, so they are at the nadir for me. Though I will acknowledge that it wasn’t exactly his fault; he had been abused. He was my brother’s dog, and some kids in school who did not like my brother thought it would be funny to beat his dog with sticks. The dog had a sweet personality initially, but turned mean. After he bit me (I was 7), they had to give him away. Then he bit another kid, and had to be put down.
I realize that often it is not the dog, but instinct for preservation can be very strong, and dogs are basically tame wolves, with very sharp teeth, and they can be very strong, so it isn’t totally crazy for me to freeze up when I see a big dog coming toward me, loose (which happens a lot in this town; people seem to think leash laws are burdensome regulations). Plus, there are a lot of mean people in this town who train their dogs to be mean, because they are mean. This town also voted for Trump. Perhaps the two things go together.
But I can get to know a dog and like even a big dog, and I’m not scared of service dogs. My instinct is overridden by my knowledge of how well trained they are, which is fortunate since they occasionally take my classes (and always get the highest grade – the dogs. The ones the dogs come in with are a mixed bag, doing as well as they are capable of, but never quite as good as the dog).
Sometimes the wolf reappears. I noticed a news report last night that a woman in Canberra was killed by her own dog in her house. Surely there were warning signs in the dog’s behavior.
An article today about an Australian girl being mauled states that 13,000 Australians need A&E treatment each year as a result of dog bites. There have certainly been many serious maulings here over the years. As some state above dogs, even small ones, are only a step or two removed from wolves and many breeds are still firmly in the hunting, attack or defence category. I’m not a big fan of dogs personally having had some close calls. That said, I have friends with dogs that are fun to be with and service dogs have never given me a flicker of concern.
I’m a cat person through and through, even though I knew someone who lost a fingertip from a cat bite.
I don’t know about NZ, but feral and house cats here in Oz kill enormous numbers of native wildlife, they’re small furry psychopaths. Most cat owners are irresponsible and allow their ‘pets’ to roam at will. They make rather soft fur caps, so they’re not entirely useless. What the country needs is a feline equivalent to myxomatosis.
Oh, they’re psychopaths for sure! Just my kind of psychopath I guess. I must have drunk the cool aid. There’s something about the combination of (apparent) affection and playfulness paired with independent disdainful arrogance that I find appealing in a companion animal. The fear of loosing a hand adds a little frisson of excitement.
We have a prominent business leader, turned want-to-be politician, who has actively campaigned for eradication of feral and eventually domesticated cats because of the harm they do to our native wildlife. The facts are actually pretty compelling, it’s just hard to deal with when a fur ball is sitting on your lap purring. I don’t currently have a cat, but my previous killer friend was a huge comfort and was surprisingly devoted (not to mention a fearsome rodent killer. Rodents also being a scourge on our native wildlife.
For those emotional reasons I totally get why some people do love dogs.
What the country needs is a feline equivalent to myxomatosis.
If you’ve ever seen a rabbit dying of myxomatosis then I hope you are not serious. It is fairly horrendous. Of course, we in the UK don’t have a huge feral cat problem. but I’d hope there’d be a better answer than that if we had.
Here at least, the data about the environmental damage cats do are at best lacking and to call owners of roaming cats irresponsible is not well-supported by evidence. My cat catches more mice than I’d like (zero would be ideal) but if there’s one thing we’re not running out of around here, it’s mice. If she started bringing in the rare newts that live in the nature reserve at the end of the street, that would be a different matter and we’d have to keep her in the house. Things might also have to change if we lived in a different kind of environment. It would be harsh. I tend toward the view that keeping cats indoors is cruel but it depends on the cat and on whether it’s causing or contributing to real damage.
But it’s really not automatically true that owners of roaming cats are irresponsible.
Cats aren’t psychopaths. They are just…. differently emotioned. Cat societies are just a little more complex than dog societies and their signaling of intent toward each other is more subtle. For example, cats, feral and domestic, will babysit for each other. This is arranged by a broad declaration of trust (cues such as slow blinking, licking lips, ear arrangement etc) This suggests quite a complex system of reciprocal altruism.
Lone cats are territorial but again, this is complex. They might fight for their own spaces, but since they roam about quite a bit, there are spaces (especially in village or urban environments) when they are going to access the same spaces. So they have shifts. By some arrangement, a shared space is one cat’s territory at some times and another’s at other times.
My point is that cat societies (including small or large groups of cats or interaction between lone cats) are complicated, that signaling between cats is complicated and that cats are a little harder to understand than dogs as a result. You can’t dominate* cats without damaging them, but you can gain their trust. That’s when you see their emotional side.
The biggest investment with dogs is in exercise and demonstrative affection (on both sides). With cats, it’s in understanding and respect. You get the same rewards in either case.
* I should point out that I don’t advocate dominating dogs. There’s no need and in my experience those who do get a loyal but fragile animal. I mean ‘domination’ in the sense of ‘having authority over’. That can be entirely benign.
I’ve seen an environment dying of rabbit infestation, it’s not a pretty sight. I’ve also seen rabbits dying en masse of calicivirus, as a farmer I regarded it as a welcome development. Rabbits, and other vermin like black birds and sparrows that the British colonists introduced to Australia because they disliked the colourful birds and unique animals of the country have cost Australia billions and devastated the environment. Australia has a unique population of plants and animals found nowhere else. If a species becomes extinct in Australia it usually can’t be replaced.
There’s plenty of data in regard to the damage cats do in Australia, there’s no doubt among scientists.
Whatever the situation is in the UK, it’s totally irrelevant to Australia which has an entirely different Environment.
Australia has a unique population of plants and animals found nowhere else. If a species becomes extinct in Australia it usually can’t be replaced.
I don’t dispute that at all and I despair at the introduction of non-native species. I understand that harsh measures are sometimes needed. I’m not entirely convinced that out of control feral cat populations should be treated in exactly the same as out of control rabbit populations, though, they’re very different. That doesn’t mean I couldn’t be convinced if the case is as strong as you say and the threat is as uniform as you make out. My response was partly motivated by your statement about “Most cat owners”. It wasn’t clear (to me) from context that you meant “Most cat owners in Australia”. I’ll defer to you on the data about the latter because I haven’t seen it but I stand by my point as explained below.
I’m sure that myxomatosis is a necessary evil in Australia. I think it was an entirely unnecessary one here in the UK. But either way, it is an evil and we can all hope for a better way.
Whatever the situation is in the UK, it’s totally irrelevant to Australia which has an entirely different Environment.
And vice versa, which was the point I was making. It isn’t automatically irresponsible for cat owners to let their cats roam but It surely is in some places. We all know the story about the lighthouse keeper whose cat destroyed an entire population of birds all by itself. It’s possibly apocryphal but wouldn’t be surprising and wouldn’t be worth the risk for the sake of a cat.
Yes. I get it. I’m not arguing with you. I never once made a single claim about the environmental impact of feral cats in Australia and agreed that if drastic measures are needed, they should be taken.
My point was a simple one and I’ve made it a couple of times now so won’t do so again. I stand by it. Our immediate concerns when we wrote our original comments were different, but I think our ultimate concerns are the same.
I don’t have time right now to look at the article you cited, but I’ll try to get round to it. Until then, I’ll take your word for it.
I’m very much on board with the sterilisation of domestic (and stray, when possible) UK cats, btw. We’re not overrun with cats, but there’s no shortage of them either.
Tsk tsk.. That’s the 6th time I break my computer while trying to reach into the screen to hug an adorable dog…
Ophelia, maybe it’s time for a gallery again, like your gallery of tilted cats. Maybe something dog this time?
Coop is such an amazing doggo. And I say that as a cat-dude.
He is. He’s a lovely sunny always-happy friendly joyous guy. He breaks all the computers.
Tilted cats. Heh heh. I’d forgotten that.
Cooper = Fortran dog.
What a lovely dog!
automatic smile on seeing him again
Some people actually don’t like dogs, they need therapy.
RJW – I actually don’t like big dogs, and I’m not fond of dogs (I had a rather scary experience as a child and no amount of therapy has made me change my mind). I do like dogs one on one, if they are my own dog that I have grown fond of, and I love dogs as a group in terms of cute pictures and so forth. So…I’m not sure where I fall on that spectrum.
Citation most definitely needed for this horrendous assertion!
iknklast,
The problem with dogs, is of course, their human pack leaders and lack of, or poor training. One necessary condition is that people should be smarter than their dogs, not all dog owners are, unfortunately. I like dogs of all sizes and shapes, although German Shepherds are at the apex. My wife and I raised Shepherds from pups and consequently we had no significant behavioral problems. Also they were not in any danger of being monstered by some idiot’s badly trained canine. Unfortunately I’m now too old and disabled for Shepherds, I have two rescue dogs, a staffy X and a tiny poodle cross. Rescue dogs come with baggage. The staffy, when I first adopted him was afraid of men, feet and children. I’m sometimes complimented on how well trained my dogs are, they understand hand signals, amazing. Actually they have been trained to a minimum standard.
I have to admit to some concern when I take my dogs for a walk, particularly if we encounter dogs for the first time. My poodle is more of less defenceless, so when I see some owner lose control of their retreiver or setter which then gallops in my direction, I’m rather wary. Most are just friendly clowns, but not all.
I’ve stopped giving unsolicited advice as it’s usually not welcome
tiggerthewing,
I have only anecdotal evidence, such as, “Get your fucking dog away from me”.
I wasn’t a huge fan of dogs when I took on this job, but a succession of three Labs has made me one – except actually the first one did that almost immediately, and the rest was just confirmation.
RJW, it was actually a German shepherd that I had problems with, so they are at the nadir for me. Though I will acknowledge that it wasn’t exactly his fault; he had been abused. He was my brother’s dog, and some kids in school who did not like my brother thought it would be funny to beat his dog with sticks. The dog had a sweet personality initially, but turned mean. After he bit me (I was 7), they had to give him away. Then he bit another kid, and had to be put down.
I realize that often it is not the dog, but instinct for preservation can be very strong, and dogs are basically tame wolves, with very sharp teeth, and they can be very strong, so it isn’t totally crazy for me to freeze up when I see a big dog coming toward me, loose (which happens a lot in this town; people seem to think leash laws are burdensome regulations). Plus, there are a lot of mean people in this town who train their dogs to be mean, because they are mean. This town also voted for Trump. Perhaps the two things go together.
But I can get to know a dog and like even a big dog, and I’m not scared of service dogs. My instinct is overridden by my knowledge of how well trained they are, which is fortunate since they occasionally take my classes (and always get the highest grade – the dogs. The ones the dogs come in with are a mixed bag, doing as well as they are capable of, but never quite as good as the dog).
iknklast,
Sometimes the wolf reappears. I noticed a news report last night that a woman in Canberra was killed by her own dog in her house. Surely there were warning signs in the dog’s behavior.
An article today about an Australian girl being mauled states that 13,000 Australians need A&E treatment each year as a result of dog bites. There have certainly been many serious maulings here over the years. As some state above dogs, even small ones, are only a step or two removed from wolves and many breeds are still firmly in the hunting, attack or defence category. I’m not a big fan of dogs personally having had some close calls. That said, I have friends with dogs that are fun to be with and service dogs have never given me a flicker of concern.
I’m a cat person through and through, even though I knew someone who lost a fingertip from a cat bite.
Rob,
I don’t know about NZ, but feral and house cats here in Oz kill enormous numbers of native wildlife, they’re small furry psychopaths. Most cat owners are irresponsible and allow their ‘pets’ to roam at will. They make rather soft fur caps, so they’re not entirely useless. What the country needs is a feline equivalent to myxomatosis.
Oh, they’re psychopaths for sure! Just my kind of psychopath I guess. I must have drunk the cool aid. There’s something about the combination of (apparent) affection and playfulness paired with independent disdainful arrogance that I find appealing in a companion animal. The fear of loosing a hand adds a little frisson of excitement.
We have a prominent business leader, turned want-to-be politician, who has actively campaigned for eradication of feral and eventually domesticated cats because of the harm they do to our native wildlife. The facts are actually pretty compelling, it’s just hard to deal with when a fur ball is sitting on your lap purring. I don’t currently have a cat, but my previous
killerfriend was a huge comfort and was surprisingly devoted (not to mention a fearsome rodent killer. Rodents also being a scourge on our native wildlife.For those emotional reasons I totally get why some people do love dogs.
RJW:
If you’ve ever seen a rabbit dying of myxomatosis then I hope you are not serious. It is fairly horrendous. Of course, we in the UK don’t have a huge feral cat problem. but I’d hope there’d be a better answer than that if we had.
Here at least, the data about the environmental damage cats do are at best lacking and to call owners of roaming cats irresponsible is not well-supported by evidence. My cat catches more mice than I’d like (zero would be ideal) but if there’s one thing we’re not running out of around here, it’s mice. If she started bringing in the rare newts that live in the nature reserve at the end of the street, that would be a different matter and we’d have to keep her in the house. Things might also have to change if we lived in a different kind of environment. It would be harsh. I tend toward the view that keeping cats indoors is cruel but it depends on the cat and on whether it’s causing or contributing to real damage.
But it’s really not automatically true that owners of roaming cats are irresponsible.
Cats aren’t psychopaths. They are just…. differently emotioned. Cat societies are just a little more complex than dog societies and their signaling of intent toward each other is more subtle. For example, cats, feral and domestic, will babysit for each other. This is arranged by a broad declaration of trust (cues such as slow blinking, licking lips, ear arrangement etc) This suggests quite a complex system of reciprocal altruism.
Lone cats are territorial but again, this is complex. They might fight for their own spaces, but since they roam about quite a bit, there are spaces (especially in village or urban environments) when they are going to access the same spaces. So they have shifts. By some arrangement, a shared space is one cat’s territory at some times and another’s at other times.
My point is that cat societies (including small or large groups of cats or interaction between lone cats) are complicated, that signaling between cats is complicated and that cats are a little harder to understand than dogs as a result. You can’t dominate* cats without damaging them, but you can gain their trust. That’s when you see their emotional side.
The biggest investment with dogs is in exercise and demonstrative affection (on both sides). With cats, it’s in understanding and respect. You get the same rewards in either case.
* I should point out that I don’t advocate dominating dogs. There’s no need and in my experience those who do get a loyal but fragile animal. I mean ‘domination’ in the sense of ‘having authority over’. That can be entirely benign.
latsot @18
I’ve seen an environment dying of rabbit infestation, it’s not a pretty sight. I’ve also seen rabbits dying en masse of calicivirus, as a farmer I regarded it as a welcome development. Rabbits, and other vermin like black birds and sparrows that the British colonists introduced to Australia because they disliked the colourful birds and unique animals of the country have cost Australia billions and devastated the environment. Australia has a unique population of plants and animals found nowhere else. If a species becomes extinct in Australia it usually can’t be replaced.
There’s plenty of data in regard to the damage cats do in Australia, there’s no doubt among scientists.
Whatever the situation is in the UK, it’s totally irrelevant to Australia which has an entirely different Environment.
I don’t dispute that at all and I despair at the introduction of non-native species. I understand that harsh measures are sometimes needed. I’m not entirely convinced that out of control feral cat populations should be treated in exactly the same as out of control rabbit populations, though, they’re very different. That doesn’t mean I couldn’t be convinced if the case is as strong as you say and the threat is as uniform as you make out. My response was partly motivated by your statement about “Most cat owners”. It wasn’t clear (to me) from context that you meant “Most cat owners in Australia”. I’ll defer to you on the data about the latter because I haven’t seen it but I stand by my point as explained below.
I’m sure that myxomatosis is a necessary evil in Australia. I think it was an entirely unnecessary one here in the UK. But either way, it is an evil and we can all hope for a better way.
And vice versa, which was the point I was making. It isn’t automatically irresponsible for cat owners to let their cats roam but It surely is in some places. We all know the story about the lighthouse keeper whose cat destroyed an entire population of birds all by itself. It’s possibly apocryphal but wouldn’t be surprising and wouldn’t be worth the risk for the sake of a cat.
latsot,
In my opinion the feral cat population, in Australia, should be exterminated and house cats should be confined, or at the very minimum, sterilised.
Here’s some data.
https://theconversation.com/for-whom-the-bell-tolls-cats-kill-more-than-a-million-australian-birds-every-day-85084
RJW.
Yes. I get it. I’m not arguing with you. I never once made a single claim about the environmental impact of feral cats in Australia and agreed that if drastic measures are needed, they should be taken.
My point was a simple one and I’ve made it a couple of times now so won’t do so again. I stand by it. Our immediate concerns when we wrote our original comments were different, but I think our ultimate concerns are the same.
I don’t have time right now to look at the article you cited, but I’ll try to get round to it. Until then, I’ll take your word for it.
I’m very much on board with the sterilisation of domestic (and stray, when possible) UK cats, btw. We’re not overrun with cats, but there’s no shortage of them either.