Judicial discretion
News from Saudi Arabia: women there face flogging and imprisonment if they check their husband’s phone without his permission.
The offence would be prosecuted as a violation of privacy because it is not covered in the country’s Islamic laws, senior lawyer Mohammad al-Temyat has said.
Well it wouldn’t be, would it. There weren’t phones to check when Mo wrote the Koran – which is reason number 4 billion whatever whatever for why we shouldn’t take a very old book as something we’re not allowed to change or dispute or throw away. Mo didn’t know everything, including phones and secularism and feminism and human rights, so he shouldn’t be set up as an infallible authority on all things.
Speaking to The Independent, Mr Al-Temyat said he worked with the government only on a voluntary basis, providing legal advice.
He described the law on checking someone’s phone as Ta’zir offence, coming under judicial discretion because it has no definition or prescribed punishment under Islam.
He said: “I would like to clarify that this subject involves the husband and the wife and it is a Ta’zir offence so it is possible that there is a flogging, a fine, imprisonment, just signing a pledge or even nothing.”
Right. When in doubt, suggest a flogging, especially when it’s a woman doing something a man doesn’t like.
Presumably the right to privacy does not cut both ways?
Rob: It’s pretty clear–men have the right to their privacy, while women have the right to have their privacy safeguaraded by men.
[smacks forehead] Of course! I knew I was looking at this all wrong.
I’ll go and check what my partner has been up to on her phone and tablet right now. Actually, better if I just take them off her so she doesn’t have to worry her poor wimmins head about the outside world.
Or…. I could go and arrange my own funeral, which is what would follow shortly after I behaved like that around my partner. I do feel that it is men who are the delicate special snowflakes on the whole. After all, it’s them that can’t cope with the idea of women as functioning humans.
“….especially when it’s a woman doing something a man doesn’t like.”
While we’re on the subject of Islam and its toxic effects on women’s lives.
Last night I watched a TV documentary by the British journalist Simon Reeve. Reeve was in Greece in 2015 and he encountered some refugee Syrian women walking along a road and obviously distressed by the extreme heat. Naturally he and his crew gave the women a lift to their destination. When they caught up with their male relatives they were ordered out of the car, apparently the women’s offence was to accept a ride from strange men without their male ‘protectors’ permission.
Of course, the obvious question is, why were the women travelling separately in the first place. Another of Islam’s mysteries.
@ ^
I saw that too. She was lagging behind because she had to carry a five year old kid in her arms. Plus she had to be covered except for face and hands in the heat. When Reeve pulled up and offered her water and a lift she could hardly speak she was panting so hard. It looked like she was about to collapse.
They’d arrived by boat with no possessions, so the men didn’t have to carry anything. Certainly not the kid — that’s women’s work. And yes, as soon as they caught up to the men, they angrily ordered her out of the car. How dare she get in a car with a strange man?
Oh, god. That’s so horrifying.
@ ^
Out of curiosity I just looked up the average weight of a 5 year old kid, and it’s about 18kg (or 40 lb). That’ll slow you down for sure.
http://www.sbs.com.au/ondemand/video/677993539981/Greece-With-Simon-Reeve
Starts @ 18.20
I noticed that some other refugees seemed to be travelling in family groups.
Practically all the information I was able to find goes back to “The Independent” as a source. How reliable is it?
The Arabnews site (see here) presents a very different story.There is no mention of flogging; they also quote a Saudi lawyer as saying that “this applies to husbands and wives, and members of the same family”.
Whom should I believe? If the Arabnews got it right, then I have no other choice but to deem “The Independent” piece as manipulative and dishonest (no matter how noble and progressive they sound, in such a case it’s still a manipulation). Otherwise it’s the Arabnews that should be accused of lousy manipulative journalism.
Does anyone know more about this?
In Ottawa the Saudi embassy was to have held a cultural festival, but it was cancelled. What on earth would one come across at a Saudi cultural festival? A collection of whips and rods used for sharia justice? Gender segregated food stands? Demonstrations of beheadings using realistic dummies that squirt life-like blood?
Ariel @ 9 – that’s a ridiculous question. Do you know where Arab News is published? The answer is: Saudi Arabia. Do you consider Saudi Arabia a country that fosters fearless independent journalism? Do you consider it a country that even allows fearless independent journalism?
So yes, when the choice is between the Independent and Arabnews, I’m going to say the Independent is more likely to be reliable. Quite a lot more likely.
With just a single source, and with so much backlash against the Saudis in the background (social media and not only)? With the paper so badly written? Sorry, I do not share your trust.
The linked paper (from “The Independet”) is bad journalism. It provides close to *none* concrete facts.
1. What is the law in question? We never learn. 2. Does it concern both men and women? The heading suggests that it’s about women only … but strictly speaking, we never learn. 3. Are there any known cases where the laws in question have already been applied? We never learn. 4. Is it a new law or a proposed application of an old one? We never learn. 5. Do the words of Mohammad al-Temyat express an isolated opinion of a single lawyer, or should they be taken as a statement of the Saudi policy? We never learn.
We learn instead what people say on Twitter. That much for “fearless independent journalism”. Standing ovation.
Ok, enough of being grumpy. I tried to find some answers. I still have no more than guesses (lots of thanks to “The Independent”!) but at least I gave it a try.
1. Since the quoted lawyers give divergent opinions, my guess is that nobody really knows how to qualify such actions.
2. I’m inclined to go with the Arabnews here, at least as far as the wording of the laws is concerned. “The Independent” provides *completely nothing* in this respect.
3. I found nothing and I have no idea.
4. Well, this one is interesting. A couple of secondary sources quote “The Independent” as stating that a *new law* has been introduced but I can’t see such an information there. (No wonder, since I can see almost no information there at all.) But have a look here – yeah, it’s this dreadful Arabnews again, an old article from 2011. A quote:
So, my guess is that nothing new has really happened: it was against the law years ago.
5. My impression at the moment is that it’s been going on like that for years. From time to time some guy gets sooo irritated by those “horrible spying wives” that he threatens them with sanctions. (So, yes, women seem indeed to be a primary target, even if the wording of the relevant laws is neutral.) Still, so far I have found no information about turning these words into a legal practice – no premise for treating it as a policy which will be officially pursued.
Oh calm down, Ariel. I think it was reasonably clear from the post that this is just some guy talking. The Independent said women face flogging and imprisonment IF they mess with hubby’s phone – that word “face” is kind of a weasel word, meaning it’s a possibility rather than a certainty. Then the quoted passage uses the conditional – this is something that might happen.
As for “backlash” against Saudis (by which I take it you mean the Saudi regime) – yeah sorry I hate the Saudi regime and think it’s evil, and I’m ashamed that my government treats it as a valued ally. The “backlash” is a protest against decades of cuddling up to a horrible, murderous, punitive, rights-abusing regime.
At the moment I feel like a stereotypical woman asked to “calm down”. Please, be warned: I can identify myself as trans any minute and it will be your fault!!!
I know it will sound horrible … but actually coming back here and checking all these dreadful stories from Saudi Arabia felt nice after the whole long day spent on … ah, you don’t want to know the details.
Last but not least: I think that our opinions of the Saudi regime are very similar.