It’s hard to resist the cachet of a celebrity
Massimo Pigliucci has interesting thoughts on the Dawkins trainwreck today.
One has to do with what kind of scientist or intellectual Dawkins is, which is something I’ve been wishing someone would point out ever since the merger. Massimo is well placed to say it, being a former biologist and current philosopher.
A few years later, when I was a full professor, but still at the University of Tennessee, I actually taught a graduate seminar on the Gould-Dawkins rivalry, and that’s where I learned something that still few people seem to realize. You see, Dawkins is often portrayed in the media as “a leading evolutionary biologist.” But if by that one means an active research scientist who has actually made major contributions to his field, then that title really ought to describe Gould, not Dawkins.
Dawkins essentially ceased publishing in the primary literature (with a few exceptions, mostly commentaries) after he wrote TSG. Absolutely nothing wrong with that: the man had found his true calling as a science popularizer, and Zeus knows we need a lot of ’em! But even TSG was just that, a popular book, not the presentation of original ideas (except for the whole “memes” thing, more on that in a minute). Indeed, TSG was the popularization of notions developed in the preceding couple of decades by true giants of the evolutionary field, including George Williams (nature of natural selection, criticism of group selection), William Hamilton (kin selection), and Robert Trivers (reciprocal altruism). (Here is a short article I wrote for Skeptical Inquirer about going beyond the selfish gene.)
See, I did know that, because of having read it from various people, probably including Massimo over the years. And it’s not a slam – I’m just a blogger and essayist, and I think that’s an ok thing to be, and I think being a brilliant popularizer is a fantastic thing to be. It’s just that I don’t think that should be confused with other things, like being “a leading evolutionary biologist.”
Massimo goes on to praise Dawkins’s stream of great public understanding of science books, praise I echo. Then he says that streak came to an abrupt halt with the publication of The God Delusion.
The broader point is that I think Dawkins has been sliding down ever since he became a (very) popular spokesperson for atheism. Which is highly unfortunate, because atheism does need good spokespeople. But the most effective ones, I would think, are those that come across as reasonable and articulate, and who are very careful about what they say in public, especially on social media. Dawkins is articulate, but doesn’t come across (to non atheists, and indeed even to some atheists) as reasonable. And he’s definitely not careful about his public statements, as we’ll see below.
Exactly. I just think it’s really really bad news that Dawkins is the face of atheism for so many people. Massimo saw this years before I did.
Then he gets to last week, and That Tweet endorsing That Video.
The video linked to in the tweet, and which Dawkins clearly endorsed, can be found here. It is an egregious, unqualified, piece of racist and misogynist garbage. Please, pause reading this post for a couple of minutes and see for yourself. It’s simply horrifying.
Then again, this was not an isolated incident. Dawkins had racked a considerable number of similarly embarrassing tweets over the past few years. Here is a sampler, ranging over such light topics as abortion, rape, pedophilia, and Islam (of course!). Use Google to find many, many more.
I’ve collected lots. Others have too.
This is why the NECSS organizers (to be clear: I am not one of them) took the extraordinary, and likely costly, step of withdrawing the invitation to Dawkins to come to New York. You can read Steve Novella’s full explanation here, which I find convincing and earnest. If anything, in my mind, the question is why was Dawkins invited to NECSS to begin with, considering that his socially erratic behavior was notorious. But I suppose it’s hard to resist the cachet of a celebrity, and Dawkins sells tickets at whatever event he is invited.
Quite. And this raises that other issue, which is why CFI felt able to merge with his foundation and add him to their board. He has been doing a terrible job of making that look like a good decision over the past week.
Massimo gets to that, after a lucid analysis of the splits in the SAHF community (acronym his).
Remember what the SAHFs evolved for: to further reason and critical inquiry, to promote science and debunk pseudoscience, to build a community of like minded people, to provide a civilalternative to religion. Does any of the above sound anything like this set of highly worthy goals?
No, clearly. But there are countless good people involved with SAHF, and they deserve to be able to return to the original goals of what they set out to do, shutting off the insanity and incivility, taking a stand again in favor of reason and decency.
That is why I applaud the step taken by the NECSS organizers. That is also why I wish (I know it’s not going to happen) that CFI divested itself from its link with the Richard Dawkins Foundation, engaged in some serious soul searching, and regrouped around the basic principles set forth by Paul Kurtz. I met Paul, and he was no saint (who is?). But I’m pretty sure he would be disgusted by the shamble in which his intellectual heirs currently find themselves.
So the Dawkins-NECSS debacle is a splendid opportunity for the good people within SAHF to step back, appreciate and remind themselves of all the good they have done in decades of activism, but also conscientiously and critically inquire into the bad or questionable stuff. Every movement goes through growing pains, and this is just one of those moments. I sincerely wish them all the best for a speedy and safe transition to maturity.
Hear hear.
I’m not that close to atheist communities, and from what I can see from a distance there’s a big fault line between motivations that cause people to become out-and-proud atheists.
Some become visible atheists because they’re intensely bothered by the evils done in the name of religion. Some also want to show that you can be a kind and ethical person without crutches that lean on religion.
There’s another, and more vocal?, group whose main attraction to visible atheism is the high that comes from feeling smarter than other people. What you might call the I-don’t-have-lean-on-no-sky-fairy-you-dumb-shits school of atheist discussion.
The two aren’t mutually exclusive and varying amounts of the two types can be mixed in any one person. Sometimes, like Dawkins?, they transition from being mainly A to mainly B. By now it looks like the point of atheism for him, as for too many nerdy guys, is to prove superiority. The reason he slots in so seamlessly with slymepitters is because he’s become (an erudite, well brought up) one of them.
All that seems rather obvious. What’s surprising though is that people in a movement founded on rationality and paying attention to evidence show so much determined ignorance about their own motivations. You’d think that would be really hard to do for someone of Dawkins education and obvious intelligence.
It must have become easier with increasing temporal distance from those latter qualities? Sorry, JMHO.
About that bad decision.
Do you think it’s more likely coincidence that within a week, Dawkins has been revealing sexist and racist belief and connections, because he made one mistake and now is lashing out and clinging to anyone who supports him?
Or has he been trying to behave while the deal was being made, and once it was all settled and announced, felt free to be his terrible self?
I really don’t know. It seems like sheer pointless deviltry – as in, “Haha you’re stuck with me now, look what I’m like!” But…that would be so bizarre.
Oh but maybe…maybe once hooked to CFI he thought he would have cover because of that. Maybe he thought surely now no one would think he was being a childish asshole, not when CFI had given him the stamp of approval.
Ophelia,
You’ve raised an issue that’s been in the back of my mind for a very long time. Sir Patrick Moore was the first person to fully engage me in the wonders of science and the cosmos via the BBC television programme The Sky at Night. He made science both fun and intriguing. Likewise, Sir David Attenborough fully engaged me in the astonishing wonders of our beautiful planet and in the evolution of its diverse ecosystems. There have been many others too numerous to mention here; the first two who spring to mind are Carl Sagan and Stephen Hawking.
I don’t use Twitter or Facebook because I never have been, and probably never will be, able to figure out what social media is actually for. I don’t think it is a source of reliable knowledge. I’m very fortunate to live in an area that has a bookshop and a public library, both of which have very knowledgeable and helpful staff. What we don’t have is a local skeptic and/or atheist group therefore we discover (the seemingly very few) like-minded members of our community only by chance.
Before the advent of social media, whenever someone asked me a question about science, logic, or religion, I could provide brief answers then suggest that they go to the library and ask for books by authors who I recommended as being experts in the topic; or watch documentaries on television by said authors. This is no longer an option because the usual reply is along the lines of: You must be joking, your so-called ‘expert’ has made an ass of themselves on social media! Similarly, whenever I refer to an article published by NASA, the UK Met Office, an expert in modern philosophy, Wikipedia, or by anyone else, my source is instantly discredited.
I guess my concern boils down to: In this 21st Century, who are the educators that we can thoroughly and honestly recommend when we are asked to provide guidance/help to those genuinely seeking it from us?
Many thanks for enabling me to finally address my long-term and increasing concern,
Pete
In regard to Dawkins’ scientific contributions, he appears to be well respected by some of his peers.
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v529/n7587/full/529462a.html
I think that Dawkins’ buffoonish episodes on Twitter are like California earthquakes. They don’t follow any discernible pattern, so you don’t know when the next one is coming, or how big it will be, but you know it’s just a matter of time.
I seriously doubt Dawkins was holding himself back during the CFI merger discussions. I don’t think he’s even capable of that. And why should he? He continues to be famous. Skeptic/atheist organizations are falling over themselves to merge with him, invite him to speak, etc. His followers are there to tell him how brilliant he is. He’s pretty much in Donald Trump territory now: any criticism is just dismissed as “political correctness,” and his fans just beg for more.
And the CFI merger is a case in point: unless this merger happened awfully quickly, the discussions probably continued right through the #HoaxBoy and Professor-what’s-his-name incidents. CFI knew what it was signing up for, or damn well should have.
Pete –
Well the two things are separate. A person can be terrible (ethically) but still write excellent books. I would if asked still recommend Dawkins’s science books.
Ophelia,
Many thanks for your reply, I can see my concern much more clearly. E.g. If I refer to multiple dictionaries in order to grasp the meaning of a word, it is the expert consensus on the definition that matters, not the ethics of each and every person that was involved in reaching that consensus.
The only ethics that I ever attempt to instil in others is: Always be totally honest with yourself because by far the easiest person to fool on this planet is ourself!
I’ll stick to answering questions on areas of science and logic that are within my fields of expertise.
Best wishes,
Pete
Pete
Hm…well I think if we have to choose one ethical precept to try to instil in others it should be one about not harming others. Don’t be evil; first do no harm; try to be kind – there are a lot of ways of wording it, but it would be a better world if more people kept it in mind.
If one of my students was to say that to me, I would point out the obvious ad hominem of such an answer. Being an ass doesn’t preclude doing good science, and in fact, much science has been done by asses.
Ophelia,
My sincerest wish since the earliest memories of my childhood has always been for every human on this planet to wake up one morning to the realization that we are not tribal enemies; we are, in fact, the one and only species of life that has the ability to converse, invent, and to solve problems not just for our species, but also for so many other species to which we extend our extraordinary level of caring and empathy to the life on our planet.
One of our perhaps most laughable innate cognitive weaknesses is being so strongly anthropomorphic — who can’t resist a cute and cuddly teddy bear? Bears are one of the most ferocious animals on the planet that would kill and eat us without having even a few milliseconds worth of empathy or compassion for us. Bears don’t care that we care about them and for them, we fully know this but we do it regardless.
Why the heck can’t humans learn to apply that wonderful level of caring towards most members of our own species. From what I’ve learnt from psychology, it seems that the ancient tradition of forming clans — and latterly, corporations — that are highly competitive (even to the point of mutual destruction) was one of the major contributors to the success of our species. Now that we’ve totally dominated this planet, the factors that made our species so successful may serve to bring about our extinction.
As you wisely said: Don’t be evil; first do no harm; try to be kind – there are a lot of ways of wording it, but it would be a better world if more people kept it in mind.
It is far too easy for people to become polarized via written words because written language is wholly incapable of conveying the metadata that is essential in all important face-to-face communications.
Thanks again for your replies, you’ve encouraged me to carry on learning and doing the best that I can (instead of giving up).
I think we should remember just where Dawkins’ reputation came from, initially; if you read his public statements about atheism, especially those before TGS’ publication, they come across as quite mild; indeed, one of the most famous, a bus campaign in London well after the book hit shelves, was “There’s probably no god. Now stop worrying and enjoy your life.”
A bit patronising, sure, but hardly intemperate, much less obscene. Yet this statement, and others of its kind well before, were treated as the vilest faux pas by almost everyone outside of the atheist community (including irreligious liberals, most of whom had never read a word of Dawkins’ on any subject at all, but parroted the meanest calumny that religious people invented to frame any and every of his statements).
After something like twenty years of having even the most mild-mannered proclamations of atheism and freethought treated as lightning rods of disputatious controversy, is it terribly surprising that Dawkins isn’t receptive to more reasonable criticism of remarks of his that truly *are* vile? There has to be a kind of outrage fatigue that goes on, where someone cannot separate reasonable criticism from knee-jerk dismissal, because there’s been so much knee-jerk dismissal for so long.
All of this isn’t to excuse or downplay Dawkins’ conduct since discovering Twitter, but it is good to remember that for the longest time, *any* public, forthright invocations of atheist ideas guaranteed slander, harassment, misunderstanding, and abuse by an ill-considered public. Dawkins is hardly the only person to have suffered this, to have been called abrasive and cruel for telling the truth in public…and I daresay he’s not the first to have lost the line between telling the truth and simply being an arsehole.
Please promote Seth @ # 13 to a standalone post!
I am not sure Massimo saw this. Be proven right after some time doesn’t imply seeing it at the time. It is possible to come to the right conclusion in a wrong way.
As far as I remember the initial flack that Dawkins got was for refusing to treat religion as sacred. For treating religion as any other set of ideas, as something that could be examined and critisized. I think he was right about that and still stand by this. And I don’t see how this view should have given us a clue into how he later evolved.
I know Dawkins is irritating a lot of people, but it is pointless to try to minimise his scientific contribution or reduce him to a mere ‘popularizer’ of science. His fight with Gould shows how formidable he was. Yes, Gould was the active research scientist at the time, but Dawkins was right, Gould was wrong, and Dawkins showed how and why. It was an important scientific debate and Dawkins was at its forefront.
His books aren’t just good pop science, they are works often of real genius. He writes brilliantly, sometime too well for his own good as in selfish gene’.
One other thing to say is that I think people like us forget very often just how little most people care about or even notice Twitter. Because we fritter a lot of time on social media does not mean that it is of very much importance in the real world. Which is why I just shrug and unfollow.
Yes, Pinkeen, but his past greatness makes it more, not less, sad to see the trajectory of his development latterly.
I don’t use Twitter either and follow a very, very small number so it’s as easy for me as for you to just shrug. But some people simply don’t have that luxury, because to them Twitter may be a professional necessity. In that position to be exposed to the kind of evil persecution we have seen from Dawkins (as well as many others, but those seldom have his massive audience) must be horrible in the extreme.
And I fail to see why Dawkins still persists. Why can’t he just shrug and let it go, too? He will still get invites to TV, conferences, book fairs etc and he can’t be exactly destitute. He can only lose.
Bad form. Bad loser. Pity, really!
I think Massimo is confusing scientific achievement with churning out academic papers. Someone like Gerard O’Neill, for instance, published very few papers, and cut his research career short, but still had a huge impact.
I still see Dawkins’ donkey-like obstinacy as a generally positive trait, especially when we’re still told to respect religious bullshit.
Pinkeen @ 16 –
How do you think you know that? You just assert it. Massimo did more than assert.
I’ve seen a good few academic colleagues of Dawkins’s say what Massimo said, over the years – not necessarily as a slam, but as a factual clarification.
I think you’re confusing fame with disciplinary standing. Dawkins has high name recognition (as does Gould); that doesn’t mean his colleagues consider him one of the great evolutionary biologists.
You claim to know different, but you don’t say how you know it.
But those two aren’t opposed things. Good science for the public can be works of real genius. As I said in the post, I think being a brilliant popularizer is a fantastic thing to be.
But again, I never said otherwise. That still doesn’t mean he’s pre-eminent as a biologist. Personally I don’t know whether he is or not, but I’ve seen a lot of his colleagues say he’s not, and few if any say he is.
Citation needed.
Am I the only person who finds Dawkins’ seriously bad judgment as to what constitutes a reliable, reputable source of information badly tarnishes my view of his earlier work? How am I to know whether he put more personally honest reflection into dismantling his biases when writing Mount Improbable than he does into a years-long series of reactionary public statements?
Answer: I can’t know without doing the research myself, in which case why should I bother with the books?
Interesting question. I suppose that is part of why I’m less keen on those books now, even though I also keep saying they’re great science for the public. I’ve been thinking of my reduced keenness as personal, and not generalizable. But I suppose that point does feed into it somewhat – if only in the sense that his metaphors may not appeal to me as much as they once did.
Still. There is a difference between Twitter and writing for publication.
I’ll second Pinkeen @16. Dawkins (E.O. Wilson, Maynard Smith, et al) was right and Gould (Lewontin, et al) was wrong. (My field.)
Agreed. And one of the differences is that it’s way easier to admit and correct a mistake on Twitter. If you’re not prpared on Twitter to admit you might be wrong — when the cost is near zero — then how likely is it in a book?
And there’s this: what kind of “genius communicator” says so often that his failures are the fault of his readers for not knowing how to think? Generally, in my experience, an unsuccessful one.
Chris Clarke @21,
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v529/n7587/full/529462a.html
Perhaps Dawkins is just a physicist at heart, as shown in this comic:
http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?id=2556
Helene @ 23 – Yeeeeeeeeeah that’s not what I had in mind. An anonymous “my field” is not enough to support a bald 3-word assertion.
The kind who wrote TGD as opposed to the kind who wrote Climbing Mount Improbable?
I think maybe he has a whole different mindset for the first as opposed to that for the second. It’s the GD one who blurts on Twitter – and the CMI one who sometimes tweets about science.
Or maybe the GD one has now swallowed the other one.
@27,
Please forgive me, Ophelia, but I’m not up to rehashing the debates of 25 years ago. And – unlike Dawkins – I avoid twitter and prefer to keep my professional work well segregated from any comments on blogs. So, mea culpa, I should not have added the two parenthetical words. As for Dawkins on evolution, I think Matt Ridley (link @ #25) says it much better than I could have.
Helene – Matt Ridley? Another misogynist. Great.
It will likely surprise no one, on learning that I study and write about natural history and ecology, that I don’t think the argument is at all settled. What I’ve seen is that Dawkins partisans say its settled, and the Natural Historian heirs to Gould say nothing because the field has essentially been abandoned to people outside academia.
Nothing in evolutionary biology makes sense except in the light of paleoecology.
PZ certainly doesn’t think it’s settled, and it’s his field, too.
Chris -agreed. I am also an ecologist and read avidly in the field of evolution. I see people who are committed to Dawkins point of view claim it’s settled but the science has a long way to go. Matt Ridley belies it is settled but he also clearly believes that people like myself (woman -roar) can’t understand the science and mathematics behind such advanced thinking. If he’s right about that last, than I could be wrong. If so, show me the data that says I can’t understand, and I will shut up.
Well, biology is certainly not my field. Once upon a time I was a geochemist, then I slid through a research career in proteins and now I do consultancy in a speciality so tiny I’d identify myself by stating it*. Thankfully the retraining costs were bearable.
I look at the Gould-Dawkins debate and see a pattern repeated over and over throughout the development of modern science. The two sides have different philosophical approaches and each can point to evidence and patterns that support their arguments. Each claims to be ‘right’. Sometimes that is the case, but very often both are right, and wrong, to some degree. Consider the neptunists vs plutonists in geology, neither of whom had a convincing argument for metamorphic rocks. It turns out that ore bodies can be formed by both sedimentary and volcanic processes, plus more besides!
Clearly genes are important, but equally so random chance and events that happen on global or geologic time scales have to be important. One side can declare the matter settled, but that doesn’t make it so. The only true constant is the human ego…
* As such anything I think I know about geology, chemistry or proteins may well have been affirmed, discounted or laughed out of the house since I worked in those fields.
@Chris Clarke #21
In that case you have to do all research yourself again. Because nobody is perfect. Should we trust Ken Miller, or any other religious scientist? Because they seem to accept some things on faith? How am I to know whether they didn’t rely on faith when writing some of their work?
Dawkins is not an exception in being someone who is good in one field and bad in an other. My experience is that generally we accept that and don’t start doubting the work done in the field the person was good in, because we learned of a field that person was bad in. I will extend Dawkins the same treatment.
So unless you have a specific reason to doubt “Mount Improbable” I don’t think it is fair to cast doubt on it based on Dawkins’s failures elsewhere.
Axxyaan,
Agreed. By most accounts Newton was a rather unpleasant person, vindictive and jealous of those whom he considered scientific rivals, he was also religious. I can’t see how that undermines his scientific achievements.
Those people who have no interest in social media, like me, will continue to read Prof Dawkins books without any animus towards him and leave the evaluation of his scientific contributions to his peers.
I’m not talking about being “perfect.” I’m talking about egregiously violating the basic principles of scientific method in one field, then expecting to be taken seriously by right in another field.
At this point, given that there are dozens of science writers who are peers or better of Dawkins in skill and expertise, why bother?
And as for this:
That’s precisely the kind of cherry-picking of relevant data Dawkins has been doing. He has no interest in Pick-Up Artisanry or White Supremacy, so he retweets the sexist shit of people from those camps with no animus toward them.
Pinkeen – could you answer my question @ 20?
I am unaware of Dawkins doing any research outside biology in which he is egregiously violating the basic principles of scientific method. If you are referring to twitter, that is IMO laughable, using those words. However horrible I find his attitude on twitter, it has nothing to do with doing science.
As to why bother. Are you really suggesting that I should advise the local library to get rid of its books written by Dawkins, with as single motivation his foul, irresponsible behaviour on twitter? Should I so advise my friends?
If you no longer wish to read Dawkins books because of his behaviour on twitter, I can understand that. But trying to cast doubt on his work because of it, is IMO crossing the line.
My apologies. I thought I was talking to a grownup.
You don’t think that is a grown up question? Don’t you think that people who love science or the science department of a library should carry books with trustworthy science? So here you are casting doubt on the trustworthyness of Dawkins books, yet when an IMO rather obvious follow up question is asked, you avoid answering by framing me as not being grown up.
Yeah, Chris Clarke, you’ve been told! You’re casting doubt on the trustworthiness of Dawkins’ books! That makes you a bad person! And bad people are dangerous to society! And people who are dangerous to society should be locked away in prison to protect society! But sometimes prisoners escape, so to be extra safe, we should just put you to death! Wheeeeeee, reductio ad absurdum and slippery slopes are fun!
It’s the question of either a child or a troll. But I try to presume the best of people.
Well it is always easy to make a caricature of the others position or to cast him in the role of troll. Much more easy than engaging. As far as I know the original meaning of troll was someone who deliberately came somewhere to repeatedly stir up trouble. Now you get the label after just three reactions, that someone is unhappy with.
I never said Chris Clarke is a bad person. But as far as I can tell is that the only argument he has against Dawkins books like ‘Mount Improbable’ is Dawkins behaviour on twitter. IMO that is a very shallow case against those books. And to support his view he tries to frame that behaviour on twitter as egregiously violating the basic principles of scientific method.
And I am the troll for daring to question that.
Axxyaan @44: “Well it is always easy to make a caricature of the others position”
Yes. Yes, it is. As you should know from your own post @39, in which you wrote:
You took Chris Clarke’s criticism of Dawkins, and suggestion that this reflected poorly on his books, and from there made the leap that Chris wants to ban Dawkins’ books from libraries. He said no such thing, and only a child or a troll thinks that it’s a reasonable inference from “I dislike this book” to “this book should be removed from libraries.”
You also distorted the Twitter issue — it wasn’t the “foul, irresponsible” aspect of Dawkins’ Twitter feed that draws his other works into question, but his frequent misstatements of his opponents’ positions and reliance on dubious sources.
Those are the lazy, troll tactics that you’re being mocked for, not for “daring to question” Chris’s argument. (By the way, the martyrdom shtick is also a reliable sign of trolldom. You brave, brave hero, you!)
If you want to argue against my position try to get it right. Argue against what I wrote and not you make of it.
There is a difference between arguing that Dawkins’ behaviour reflects poorly on his books and framing Dawkins behaviour on twitter as egregiously violating the basic principles of scientific method in one field. However frequently he misstates his opponents’ positions and relies on dubious sources. He is not conducting science there, so IMO he doesn’t have to behave as a scientist there.
And for your information, if Dawkins would indeed have been conducting science in an other field and egregiously violated the basic principles of scientific method there, that would indeed IMO be sufficient ground, not to outright ban Dawkins books in libraries, but for libraries to reconsider if it is in the interest of their public to keep those books on the shelves.
So, what is your position? Do you think someone egregiously violating the basic principles of scientific method in one field should be of no concerns for libraries carrying books of that author as long as the books are in an other field?
Or is it that it should be a concern of libraries, but others shouldn’t advise them about it, the libraries should learn about it themselves?
Something else?
Off course now that I am asking questions in the hope that you would clarify your position, you can acuse me of further troll tactics by jaqing off.
ISTM this discourse has run its course off course. ;-)
(JMHO, mind! Unscientific too.)
Who am I to blow against the wind. I know what I know.
Hi Axxyaan,
The public library services that are available to me stock a range of books based on popularity, rather than on factual accuracy. Same applies to the bookshops (and to Web search engine results). Certainly in bookshops, the pseudoscience section is much larger than the science section. E.g. one shop has three books on astrology and none on astronomy. Such is life!
Axxyaan @46:
Like what you did to Chris Clarke? Feel free to apologize to him any time you like.
The key “word” there is “IMO.” You should not assume that either I or Chris share your opinion that books we consider flawed or untrustworthy should be excluded from libraries.
First of all, “egregiously violating the basic principles of scientific method” is your characterization, not mine. I think that Dawkins’ penchant for misstating his opponents’ arguments on Twitter suggests that he may have been similarly ungenerous in his books. I would not consider that an egregious violation of the basic principles of scientific method, in large part because I don’t really think that Dawkins’ books are an exercise in the scientific method. With a few exceptions (such as his computer programs in The Blind Watchmaker), Dawkins isn’t forming or testing hypotheses or collecting data, at least not in the way we generally think of those activities. But that’s more of a nitpick — I’ll accept the notion that honesty and accuracy are important in any kind of scientific writing, and move on to answer your questions.
My position is that libraries are not adjudicators of truth or virtue. I think the dishonest and inaccurate works of creationists should be available in libraries, if for no other reason that so that their mendacity is documented and available for scientific and cultural historians to research and write about. And I would not put Dawkins anywhere near the dishonesty of the average creationist. He would hardly be the first, and won’t be the last, scientist to uncharitably describe the views of his intellectual adversaries.
Similarly, even if Dawkins’ scientific books were as offensive as his Twitter feed, I would not exclude them from libraries, just as (again, moving to an extreme example) I would not remove Mein Kampf from library shelves.
Librarians do, of course, have to make decisions about how to allocate resources in terms of shelf space, procurement budgets, etc. But I think there are many other factors that would come into those decisions (what are the interests of the library’s patrons, how well is this subject area covered by existing collections, etc.), and I assume that the training and education of librarians makes them much more knowledgeable on the subject than me.
Again, I assume that librarians are quite capable of doing their jobs without my personal input. I have no desire to emulate the local busybody writing letters to the public library board about how Ulysses is obscene, and Harry Potter promotes witchcraft.
Let me turn that question upon you: when you discover that a book is flawed in some way, do you advise libraries of your findings?
Childish troll it is then.
I’ll correct that for you, Chris Clarke:
“Childish troll it is then, I think.”
@Screech Monkey,
No that was Chris’s characterization in #37. And since you came to his defence when I reacted to that I assumed you agreed with it.
@Chris
Well I’ll presume you mean this, You need to try harder.
Presuming the best of people doesn’t mean that if you can only think of negative motivations behind something, to then presume the least bad among them.
Presuming the best of people means that even if you can only think of negative motivations behind something, to presume the motivations are positive anyway — you just don’t see how for the moment — and to treat the person thusly.