A victory for xenophobia
Sad and shocked this morning. Presumably as an immigrant I should hand my job back to whoever it is I took it from. A victory for xenophobia
Some replies:
Phoenix on the Right @BigButterNutJoe 5 hours ago
@jimalkhalili You should absolutely leave. What kind of Brit has a last name like Al-Khalili? Your people have a home.TJWP @Hriob_Zagel 5 hours ago
TJWP Retweeted
Well with an attitude like that you should probably leave since you don’t seem to support the county to begin with. https://twitter.com/jimalkhalili/status/746207671515123714 …Randolph Carter @occidissident 5 hours ago
Randolph Carter Retweeted
That’s a start. Then self-deportation. Take your skill set and benefit your own country, your own people #brexit https://twitter.com/jimalkhalili/status/746207671515123714 …Brittany StGermain @brittykittybrat 5 hours ago
@jimalkhalili Maybe if immigrants showed more respect to their “foster” countries instead of trying to bring what they “ran” from…hmmmmmmmSpectre ✘ @SpectreRedux 5 hours ago
Spectre ✘ Retweeted
Yes. And then get the fuck out. Go home, kebab. https://twitter.com/jimalkhalili/status/746207671515123714 …
Welcome to Farage’s Britain.
More like the Britain that was always there…
Strange, so similar to Trump’s America.
Well, well, how are the British going to assume the moral high ground now?
The assumption that the decision to leave was only animated by xenophobia seems simplistic.
It’s easy for progressives in leafy outer suburbs to sneer at members of the ‘xenophobic’ working class who find themselves on the front line of globalisation. The referendum is one of the few times workers in the UK had a chance to express their opinions and they, unfortunately, didn’t vote ‘correctly’.
I’ve not commented for a while but I need to get this out of my system.
I voted remain and stayed up all night watching the results, I knew it would be close but thought that remain would just do it but by about 3.30 am I was starting to get that sinking feeling.
That feelings just got worse as the day’s gone on. I’ve seen a few reports like the one above where some people are just seeing it as a license to be openly racist and as for those people who voted for brexit thinking remain would win-1 democracy is not a joke and 2 shame on you.
Sorry- a bit of a word salad but shouting expletives at the top of my voice just isn’t done round here.
It is an easily observable fact that a large proportion of the ‘leave’ noise was based on fear of brown immigrants. And much of the rest contained misinformation.
tiko – yes – here the local National Public Radio station threw up its hands and turned its whole evening schedule over to the BBC (when normally we get BBC World from 7-8 and then NPR stuff). Every hour they said “We’ve decided to stay with the BBC for another hour…”
It’s all just gruesome.
RJW – who’s your sermon for? I haven’t seen anything about “members of the ‘xenophobic’ working class” here – it’s very obvious that the xenophobia is not confined to one class. Also I don’t think anyone has said xenophobia was the only reason for the vote. The point is that the vote has empowered xenophobia, and that that’s not joyous news.
Ophelia,
What sermon?
What does ’empowering xenophobia’ mean? How do you know empower something?
The vote probably has also given the working class a direct say in UK politics without the usual apparatchiks as middlemen.
The headline is “A Victory for Xenophobia” which suggests that was the issue in the referendum. A more appropriate headline is ” A Victory for Democracy”.
@RJW
No ones saying that everyone who voted brexit is a racist but is is a fact that the most visible and vocal campaigners for brexit have been the ‘ugh foreigners’ and ‘but we’re british’ brigade.
The reality is that it has been as simplistic as that for many people of all classes* and I suspect that once their winners euphoria has worn off they’ll be thinking ‘what the hell now’ like the rest of us. ( looking at how boris johnson delivered his speech wondering if he’s one of the ‘oops didnt expect that to happen’ people)
* just worth pointing out that i am working class myself.
RJW – the sermon in the final paragraph of your comment @ 3.
I think you can probably figure out what I mean by “empowered xenophobia,” especially if you look at the post again.
I took the headline from Jim Al-Khalili’s tweet.
Is that the Jim al-Khalili who’s a physics prof and does those TV shows? He has a really good 4 part one about electricity. Just sayin. ☹️
tiko 72
I really don’t know what the fuss is all about. I’d bet that Britain will probably never disentangle itself from the EU, the country’s elites will never allow that to happen. The referendum is not legally binding, a fact which seems to be ignored by many commentstors. So don’t worry, in the long term the Brexiters will lose.
@RTW
What an odd comment. Is that what you secretly wish?
Sorry it’s not going to be as easy as that, and many brexiters are going find out there’s more to it than just waving a union jack .
Petuniacat – Yes, that one.
tiko 72
What’s odd about the comment? It’s a statement of opinion as to the real significance of the ‘referendum’. It would be very naive to assume that everything is settled.
I really don’t give a rat’s as to whether the UK stays or leaves the EU, I’m not British. Despite all the nonsense on the Net and the MSM the long term consequences will be trivial to my country, so I don’t secretly wish for any particular result.
My criticism is (1) directed to the validity of the democratic process, and (2) the inflated claims made but both sides of the argument. I’ll certainly admit to an interest in the EU, it’s such a hubristic circus and an endless source of amusement to any disinterested observer. My point is that there’s still hope for those people who voted for Britain to stay since the Brexiters will never be allowed to achieve their goal.
@ RJW
So it’s a victory for democracy that has given the working class a direct say in UK politics but there’s nothing to worry about because the voters won’t get their way. Gotcha.
:-/
@15 Silentbob,
No, it’s a temporary victory for democracy. Gotttit?
Uh, a sham vote is hardly even a temporary victory for democracy. A sham vote is a mockery of democracy.
And Brexit has nothing to do with xenophobia in the same way flying the “Stars n Bars” above a state capitol is about heritage,not racism.
Samantha Vines, @17
No, it’s not a ‘sham’ vote, unless it was conducted corruptly and there’s no evidence of that. It is not legally binding on the current, or any future UK government, so it’s not really a referendum in the usual sense of the term. Certainly the British, who have little experience of direct democracy, have used an inappropriate term for the vote and confused some outside observers. Probably ‘plebiscite’ would have been more accurate.
There will probably be another ‘referendum’ after some period of negotiations and the plebs will vote ‘correctly’, and the government of the day will gracefully accept their verdict and the UK will stay in the EU. I can’t make it any clearer.
So if the democratic process is used towards racist ends that’s suddenly ok? Similarly all those gay marriage bans?
Screw’em; if they want to be assholes they shouldn’t be making decisions for the rest of us*.
*Not a Brit, but conceptually this applies broadly.
@19
You really should review what you write before you post it. Are you suggesting approved democratic decisions and unapproved democratic decisions? What’s the correct term for such attitudes?
You’ve just suggested dissolving the people rather than parliament, or perhaps an enlightened despot would be an excellent idea. You can never trust the plebs, they don’t seem to understand that they should follow the lead of the better educated, morally superior middle and upper classes, who have jobs, houses and security.
I agree with RJW’s take.
It was Cameron, a guy in favor of remaining, who came up with the idea of a referendum ( really a plebiscite) in the first place.
People voted and they voted to leave. That’s democracy. Accept the result, assess the reasons for that result, and then stop throwing about insults like a bunch of sore losers
That working class Brits kicked their worthless, apatride elites in the teeth should serve as a lesson to the other worthless, apatride Euro elites.
Exercising you democratic right to vote is only xenophobia if you don’t vote the *right* way. Xenophobia is but the latest incarnation of ‘Bourgeois Reactionary’.
When the Irish voted on whether or not to join the EU, they voted NO, but were frog marched into it anyway.
Such is the democracy of the euro-elites.
Screw Brussels and its Little Oktobrist quangos. Xenophobia my ass.
The xenophobia is very real, dear John. And is absolutely going to become a larger problem. Such is the context; the racists will imagine this result justifies much, and will be emboldened. As evidenced already. Still, I find it not at all surprising you’d try to dismiss the perfectly reasonable concerns over the same as mere ‘insults’ from ‘sore losers’ when it’s actually quoted you, however. You do seem to have a talent for conveniently timed illiteracy on such subjects; it does stick out a bit. Perhaps you will now argue a kebab is, after all, quite tasty and ‘ethnic’, and thus both worldly and inoffensive?
(Do, please. We all like a laugh.)
Back to substantive subjects and discussion, and to those present who can more consistently read: I think it unlikely there will be any do-overs. Notwithstanding imagined ‘elite’ opposition to this requiring the same (and against this self-serving narrative of put upon working class victims throwing off the shackles of the Illuminati, remember many of the young, rather less regularly attending the trilateral commission meetings were also quite opposed, in what _was_ a rather close vote), markets dislike uncertainty intensely. Brussels isn’t just saying get it over with because they’re bitter; it’s both practical and necessary, now.
(Erm, apologies? Did I imagine that? Guessing I missed something?)
Heh – you didn’t imagine it. For the second time in the past few days I was so exasperated by John’s lazy rudeness that I simply deleted his comment. (Last time I said I’d done so, but I don’t think he saw that, so I decided why bother.) So now I’ve restored it.
The people of Britain have spoken, and the people in Brussels have listened. Any relationship the UK has with the EU going forward is necessarily going to be strained, even if RJW’s predictions bear out and the UK doesn’t manage to invoke Article 50. The fact is that the UK has been treated with kid gloves (including maintaining its own border controls! And being able to opt out of the Euro!) since the start of its relationship with the EU; it’s gotten many unfair deals (that is, unfair to the rest of the EU member states), and it has also held back many of the much-needed reforms and initiatives that the Farages and Boreholes of the UK tried to use as justification for leaving. In other words, Britain has been treated better than any other EU member state, and has behaved as though it’s been treated worse. Hell, even on the eve of calling the referendum (or plebiscite, or fantastically expensive opinion poll, or what-have-you), Brussels offered *even more* generous terms, even more preferential treatment, even more influence with less involvement.
Expect that special treatment to stop, no matter what comes of the vote. Expect terms at least as onerous as those faced by Norway and Switzerland. Expect the steady migration of capital from London to Dublin and Frankfurt. Expect another vote on Scottish independence, without the threat of ‘leaving the UK means leaving the EU!!!’ hanging over Scots’ heads at the ballot box. Expect calls for a reunited Ireland, or at least an independent Northern Ireland as an EU member state. Expect the EU to offer to foot the bill for Scottish independence and Irish reunification (or Northern Irish independence). Expect the Tories to take all of those supposed ‘savings’ and conveniently forget to funnel them to the NHS, and instead expect the Camerons and the Johnsons and their Etonian chums to keep getting wealthier while the average ‘decent working person’ gets poorer. Expect the Commonwealth to continue drifting further from Britain, as it becomes more and more a matter of choosing between Britain and Europe. Expect any trade deals going forward to be much less favourable than anything the UK got while it was a leading member state.
England wants its independence, and it *will* get it. Whether Scotland and Northern Ireland (and possibly London) go along is an open question that will be settled in relatively short order.
Still, I find it not at all surprising you’d try to dismiss the perfectly reasonable concerns over the same as mere ‘insults’ from ‘sore losers’
Questioning the current suicidal levels of immigration is a perfectly reasonable concern, as well. The destruction of wage structures and the increasing levels of impoverishment, both directly connected to immigration, is also a reasonable concern.
If you cannot grasp the growing view that immigration shouldn’t be a suicide pact, then I can understand your bewilderment, confusion and incomprehension at the Brexit results. You’re too damned lazy, not to mention arrogant, to think anything through, so you just chirp ‘xenophobia’ and ‘racism’ at anyone who disagrees.
Your elitist disdain for working class people is duly noted.
And your ‘literacy’ is but cultural Marxist bunk.
@20:
You’re not reading me wrong… I’m an authoritarian, one who believes that the best way to accomplish progressive goals is through authoritarian means.
It’s no accident that most civil rights advances were made through “activist” judges (thank you SCOTUS!) instead of national ballots. When you let the hoi polloi decide things you get Herr Donald Trumpenfuhrer.
Ah, me, John. If I had a dime for every not-so-closeted apologist for xenophobia who tried to deflect all criticism of the same, caught out at it, as ‘disdain for the working class’, I expect I’d be able to work a great deal less myself…
… speaking of, dunno, guy. Don’t think you make the ‘working class’ grade too well, yourself…
I mean, I got no idea if you’re working. But not noticing much class, here.
As to ‘cultural Marxism’, oh, my! Where!? I is terrified! it sounds _horrid_! I feel faint!
(Shivery plutocratic tremble goes here.)
(Oh, and Ophelia, really, it’s your server. You don’t want this thing chasing off into that ugly, hey, I don’t blame you at all. Not like there’s not likely to be lots of it going around anyway. I can smack at flies anywhere, if I feel the need, I guess.)
Andrew, no no – once you’d written the retort it became worthwhile to restore its provocation.
A vote where the results will be ignored is a sham, RJW. Do you not understand English words? You seem to think it is a synonym for “rigged”, which it isn’t.
Samantha Vines, @31
I’ve already explained, about three times, that the vote is not a referendum but a plebiscite, the government can legally, ignore the vote.
@27
That might be the case in the US, however in most democracies, human rights advances are usually achieved through parliamentary legislation, not unelected judges.
Ever hear the old adage”Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to have for dinner.”?
Democratic means are garbage when it comes to civil rights for minority populations. This is true absolutely everywhere because people are terrible.
@34
No, that’s not true absolutely everywhere, as I’ve already indicated. I can’t think of any fascist oligarchies which respect or have respected, minority, or human rights.
That said, I sometimes wish Western democracies had a constitutional provision for Roman style dictators, those were the days.
I suggest that in Britain what we are witnessing is about the worst thing that can happen to any ruling class: its long, drawn out humiliation before its own people. A hundred years ago, Britain was ‘the workshop of the world’ and she controlled the greatest empire ever assembled in the history of the world, on which ‘the sun never set’, and serviced by a navy second to none. The EU is the right way for the UK to go: in principle. It is the foundation of The United States of Europe.
In 1862 when Abraham Lincoln was confronted by a similar situation, he refused to allow the Southern States to exit. After a war that cost nearly 1,100,000 casualties and claimed more than 620,000 lives, what emerged was the greatest industrial power the world had ever seen.
But it does not look like the EU will follow a similar path. The reason is China. Anything the EU can do, China can do better: with India and Sub-Saharan Africa not far behind.
Seth: The examples you give (“including maintaining its own border controls! And being able to opt out of the Euro!”) aren’t really good examples of the EU treating UK with kid gloves: Both the Schengen agreement and the Euro were opt-in, not opt-out. The reason being that they both entailed member states relinquishing sovereignty beyond what they had already given up as members of the EU. So all member states had the option of entering these agreements, or staying out. Heck, even non-member states! Norway joined Schengen, even though we’re not an EU member. (I don’t recall if we were ever invited to join the Euro zone, though.)
To RJW @20:
There is more to democracy than a process of majority rule. This is why democracies place limits on what can be voted on – either by a constitution or a set of laws that function as the equivalent of a constitution. These limits are guided by values such as individual rights.
BTW, apparently the best predictor for voting ‘Leave’ wasn’t age, low education, nor low economic status, but a positive view towards the death penalty. Authoritarian thinking.
Anat, @38
Of course not, I never said that majority rule was all that was required for democracy.
My comments were in the context of the Brexit vote, the U.K. will not leave the EU. The City oligarchs will never allow it. Some of those people who voted to leave probably realise that as well.
Refer to my comment @32
If I had a lazy $1000 and a life expectancy beyond 1-2 years I’d bet it on Britain staying in the EU. 5 years in the future everything will have returned to normal. Those who have been left behind by the new Europe will still be ‘losers’.