Pissing off the herd
One reason we’re given to back up the claim that concerns about trans people should trump other concerns (such as lesbian and gay rights and feminism) is the high suicide rate among trans people. Kevin K on the Dames on the run thread for instance –
On that note, in light of a suicide rates of transgender kids being 10 to 20 times higher than their peers, I think “thinking of the children” is entirely merited.
But wait a minute. Who are “their peers”? There’s more than one way to slice and dice kinds of kids; trans kids on the one hand and their peers on the other isn’t a very careful way to compare.
What about lesbian and gay kids? What about bullied kids? What about kids who don’t fit in? What about small kids, homely kids, fat kids, clueless kids, clumsy kids, boring kids, awkward kids?
There are so many ways for kids to piss off the herd and become targets. Kids are horrifyingly good at enforcing the local norms, I suppose because they’re deep in the process of figuring out how to Do Everything Right themselves and conformity is their chief guide. I remember being that kind of kid, and I remember ceasing to be it. In the lower grades I was desperate to be acceptable and to fit in (and I was a dismal failure at it). In the upper grades I stopped giving a fuck, and often flouted the local norms. For awhile in the 11th grade (I think) I wore little white socks when that was a gross fashion violation. I did it for my own amusement. But in the lower grades it was all sheep-like imitation, and ostracism.
Being trans is one way to piss off the herd, for sure, but so are a bunch of other variables. Do we know that trans kids have a suicide rate 10 to 20 times higher than all their peers? If we sort the kids in a different way, would we find they have a rate comparable to other kinds of kids subject to bullying and ostracism?
“Kids are horrifyingly good at enforcing the local norms”
Whenever I hear someone wax rhapsodic about the supposed “innocence” of children, I conclude that I’m dealing with a person who either has little experience with (or memory of) children, or whose judgment is not to be taken seriously.
Having been on the wrong end of the Lord of the Flies. Yes. +1.
I’ve said before that I think the high rates of suicide and murder merit particular attention to trans issues, but I’ve started to question the value of performative statements of support based on suicide numbers. How is it actually translating into, you know, smarter thinking about the best ways to provide support and help end the problem?
I’m also wondering more about why the suicide rate is even particularly relevant, as opposed to the reasons why trans murders and suicides occur. Obviously the numbers are relevant to measuring what is happening. But, say you do slice and dice the population and find that trans women have the same suicide and murder rates as certain other segments of the population — would trans activists pack up and jump onto another cause? Surely the most powerful and relevant reason why feminism should support trans people is because they’re targeted by misogyny and misogyny-based bullying.
Even if it’s true about the suicide rate, every kid deserves our care. One group doesn’t trump another in terms of sympathy and understanding. Each person needs to be treated as an individual when it comes to mental health care
I haven’t found the information about kids specifically, but there is some comparative data concerning LGB, trans people and the overall population – at least in the US. From the report of the Williams Institute (2014, p. 2, “Executive summary”):
In the last few days I have been reading up on some fairly recent research on approaches to treating trans kids. Obviously some MDs treat w/ hormones and antagonists to block the body’s naturally occurring hormones, to suppress puberty. Others, who do not privilege the biological hypotheses about gender, offer long term talk therapy to kids and parents, to find ways of understanding sources of their suffering – not only their reported gender dysphoria but their loneliness, their depression, their rage, their defiance, their responses to their parents’ aggression, etc. and resolving their suffering. The second kind of practitioner is trained to listen to children w/ their ages, cognitive development, knowledge, and language use in mind, that is, when listening to a 4 year old the therapist knows the range of 4 year olds typical stuff, even very smart ones w/ big vocabularies. And the same for adolescent girls. One replicated and robust finding since the 1980s is the majority of childhood trans-ness disappears by late adolescence. I have been told that this may be caused by trans kids suppressing their wish to transition in the face of social and family stigma. Thus may happen convincingly in some cases, but the research suggests that such cases are not counted in the trans-disappearing stats. The stats, even the research on self-harm or suicide among trans kids is nonexistent. Hence no published evidence that a high proportion of trans kids commit suicide. Schwartz, D. March 2012. Listening to Children Imagining Gender: Observing the inflation of an idea. Journal of Homosexuality. 59:3 (Schwartz was a discussant/commenter on. A special issue of J of H on “treatment of gender dysphoric / gender variant children and adolescents). A commenter on a blog posted this link to the article. autogynephiliatruth.files.wordpress.com/2015/07/schwartz-2012.pdf
Holy shit – 41%.
Anya and Karmacat, yes of course, I’m not saying “therefore never mind trans kids,” I’m only saying trans kids may not be more at risk of suicide than other marginal kinds of kids and we should do our best for all of them.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/05/090520064349.htm
There is no valid biological hypothesis about gender because gender isn’t biological, it’s cultural stereotypes. Maybe you mean physical sex, Claire. And yeah, there are different ways to interpret someone’s physical sex but personally I think it all goes back to the chromosomes. You need two different cells to make a baby, so you must have two different sexes to produce those cells. In humans the Y chromosome codes for potential to make sperm cells. Lacking a Y means you default to making eggs. The appearance of the external genitalia and differences in the sex organs can be derived from any number of factors such as other genetic issues, extra sex chromosomes, lack of ability to respond to testosterone (important in the development of boy fetuses), overexposure to testosterone in utero (as we see in female babies altered by said exposure), etc. But there are still only two sexes, since there are two sex cells, no matter how many external variations and expressions people’s body parts may have.
The reason anyone has to argue about this is because they cannot let go of gender. And I wish I knew why. Every other marginalized group knows that stereotypes are bad. Why are females, in particular, or people who wish they were females, clinging to these things? They’re horrible. They limit our ability to attain our full potential and they limit our future prospects. The only time physical sex matters is when you want to create a baby or nourish one with your body. If what you want to do has nothing to do with babies then it’s open to EVERYBODY. Liking dolls doesn’t make you female. Working on cars doesn’t make you male. There’s no way to “feel female” or “feel male” any more than there’s a way to “feel human” or “feel brunette/blonde” or “feel left-handed”. You either are or you are not. It’s very simple.
So maybe what needs to change in society is the constant overwhelming attempts to force conformity onto people of any description. It seems that the overarching issue is not about gender, weight, orientation, appearance, and so forth: the issue is the religion of Conformity, and all the people who train their kids to worship at its altar.
Kids with disabilities. Depressed kids. Poor kids in cheap or shabby clothes. Spotty kids. Angry kids.
When you think about it it’s a wonder schools can function at all, when they have to deal with people who are years too young to have all the necessary skills for treating each other decently.
Kevin, yes, I think that plus the culture of schools. Much smaller classes would help – I went to a tiny school, and there was ostracism (that is, some kids were more popular than others) but not real bullying. I think bigger classes provide cover for bullying.
But of course much smaller classes aren’t going to happen. Sigh.
Dana
I think you misread something in my post. I was summarizing the Schwartz article, using the terms he used to review an article by a medical clinic. His point is that those who assume a biological source of gender will offer medicalized treatment – meds and surgeries. Schwartz makes an excellent critique of that kind of treatment, and comments that there is no evidence that trans kids engage in self-harm excessively. Also no evidence that early hormones and puberty suppression lead to long term satisfaction or contented lives. There are no data. Hard population to study, though so we do not know. And so should not toss “they harm themselves” into discussions to turn up the heat and urgency of hormonal treatment on kids.
So no, I do not mean physical sex. I meant what I said because I wanted to compose an accurate report of Schwartz’s comments on gender essentialism and the treatment associated with it.
Add to Claire’s comments that kids on the autism spectrum, who are often viciously bullied, are more likely to identify as trans than neurotypical kids (and vice versa). A recent Finnish study* found that the gender dysphoric kids coming to their clinic exhibited an alarmingly high incidence of psychological issues, some of them severe. Some of the issues, such as depression and anxiety, were probably, at least in part, a consequence of bullying. With others, like autism and ADHD, it’s harder to say why they might co-occur with gender dysphoria. These are kids who need a lot of good help and support; trying to tease apart who is suicidal for what reasons sounds like an epidemiological nightmare to me.
Also, the number of girls with gender dysphoria is rapidly increasing, so much so that they are now outnumbering boys in some reports. I strongly suspect that the horrific social pressures being brought to bear on girls, including bullying, are a big part of this.
Finally, any suicide is tragic, especially in kids. Still, there’s reason to skeptical of that 41% suicide attempts statistic:
http://4thwavenow.com/2015/08/03/the-41-trans-suicide-rate-a-tale-of-flawed-data-and-lazy-journalists/
I’m pointing this out not to be unsympathetic, but because it’s important to be accurate.
*Caution: very small sample, only 47 kids. And, in case it needs to be said, of course there are plenty of kids with gender dysphoria who are NOT autistic, clinically depressed, etc.
A recent Canadian study (relatively large; n=433) probes more deeply into transgender suicide rates than any other I’ve encountered.
Resarch published in BMC here.
A nice (and less technical) write-up of the study can be read in the toronto sun, Suicide rate much higher for transgender Canadians: Study.
Some pertinent excerpts:
Just want to mention– I read elsewhere that the “Dames on the Run” article was bogus.
The article
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/11818229/Charity-race-for-childrens-hospice-where-runners-dress-in-drag-is-a-hate-crime.html
has not been retracted yet. But you are saying the Lancashire Police did not get asked to investigate a hate crime?
That would be good. It seemed too ridiculous to be true. Now, if only we could figure out how to have the charity race with men in dresses… without harming transgender children. Then we would be all right. Until then, i’ve been told, transvestite activity is going to make a mockery of transgender children, so we shouldn’t allow transvestites to exist. At least, not in front of the Children which we must all Save. So, still no Dames On The Run allowed, until we’re sure that nobody will suffer from their hate crime.
Just about anything can piss off the herd, including, as I learned in third and fourth grade, not joining in the bullying of The Fat Kid, and treating him like a human being.
Kevin Kirkpatrick @ #15
The stats you quote (1 in 167 versus 1 in 9) reflect the comparison between trans and all other Canadians. Ophelia was asking about the comparison of trans and gay kids (or other potentially socially-excluded kids).
As far as gay kids are concerned, it seems the rates of suicidal thoughts and actions are about the same as trans kids (between 40 – 50% having considered it) and the contributing factors effecting the outcomes are the same (e.g. parental and societal acceptance, inclusion).
One could assume that as society changes to accept homosexuality, we’ll see those stats go down for gay teens (yay!) and, one hopes, the same affect will be seen as trans people are accepted into the mainstream.
Olaru #14
I followed the link you provided. The author’s main aim is to criticize “ the leap in logic to assume the only viable choice is to medically transition or die”; the crucial claim is that the Williams Institute survey “cannot be responsibly used as a basis for the presumption that medical transition reduces self harming behaviors over the lifespan”.
I referred to the report for different aims (by the way, it wasn’t also to shock anyone with 41%). In the OP, Ophelia discusses the claim that “suicide rates of transgender kids are higher than their peers”. In this context, she asked “Who are “their peers”? […] What about lesbian and gay kids?”
The information from the report is that the rates for transgendered people are significantly higher than for LGB. I considered it pertinent, even though it’s not about kids. Does the criticism in the link you provided invalidate this?
Well, we have the following passage:
This could have serious impact on comparisons if the numbers 4,6% (for the general population) and 10-20% (for LGB) were calculated by different (non-binary) methods. Then it would be indeed like comparing apples to oranges. But were they?
From the report:
So the number 4.6 % seems fine (apples to apples). What about 10-20% for LGB? The reference for these numbers in the report is the paper (Paul et al., “Suicide Attempts Among Gay and Bisexual Men”, Am. J. Public Health, 2002). I looked inside; unfortunately, what I saw is that the paper just quotes the numbers as known (the original research of the authors being focused on G/B men) and refers the reader to books which are inaccessible to me. In effect, I’m not able to answer. Anyone else can?
@SamBarge,
I’d been most keen to supply a source for my “10 to 20 times”; I knew I’d seen it reinforced in something I’d read recently, but wanted to put it on more solid footing than my say-so.
That said, in light of Ophelia’s question, my focus on the suicide rates for those within the “T” subset of LGBTQ could be construed as dismissive of the equally astronomical rates for gay/bi/queer, so I do apologize if it came off that way.
I definitely share your hope that increasing levels of tolerance / acceptance for both gay and trans individuals has the effect of reducing these tragedies across the board (though given the current abysmal state of affairs, I sure as hell wish those levels would start rising a lot faster!)
Does any of the research on suicide bother to explore whether the parents are authoritarian and conformity-worshipping? Does any of the research on suicide bother to explore whether the children are living in communities and houselholds which emphasize conformity over individual freedom? Because authoritarian parents are never to blame for transgender and gay kids committing suicide. Authoritarian parents are blameless, and it’s always somebody elses fault. It’s somebody being too aggressive against the family, it’s somebody being too aggressive against the norms of the schools and churches. It’s somebody else’s fault, but it’s never ever ever the fault of the parents. Does any research bother to explore this? I read the linked articles from Ophelia, Olaru, and Ariel, but when they mention parents, they only say it’s the parents jobs to look out for warning signs of depression and self-destruction, they don’t mention whether the authoritarian parents have any influence on the children’s desire to not live in this world. The Williams Report only mentions parents specifically once, and it’s to point out the correlation of 57% of the children considering self-harm when their parents and family shun them. But authoritarian parents are blameless, so we should figure out how to blame something else, yes?
@Ophelia Benson (#11):
Not one of Armour Hot Dogs’ best jingles…
Ariel @ #20, I’m sorry if I gave the impression that I thought the linked article was authoritative! I don’t, but I did think it was worth reading, as it raises some points I wasn’t aware of. Also, because the 41% is so often treated as authoritative. Maybe it’s higher, maybe it’s lower, maybe 41% is right on the money, I’m not sure we know yet. Whatever the number, it’s clearly tragically high.
And Kevin H the B @ #20, No, I don’t know of any such study, but I’ll have a look around. Also, the study linked by Kevin K @ #15 discusses parental support as a vital factor in minimizing risks of self-harm in trans people. Doesn’t break it down into various parental attitudes as far as I can see.
When dealing with suicide attempts by the very young, can we authoritatively identify which bracket of LGBTQ they will fall into when they’ve formed their identity?
I also remember childhood far too well to pretend that ‘kid’s’ culture isn’t a snake pit of hatred and conformity. Are trans kids more visible than gay kids? Do bullies and their adult supporters even recognize the difference?
And thanks Dana#9 for the point. ‘Gender’ is dreadfully easy to conflate with X and Y chromosomes. It is insane to observe ‘normal’ contemporary behavior on this front (dolls/cars etc.) and make pronouncements about what it means to be Male or Female. Of course I ‘feel’ male, having had Y chromosomes for 59 years. But that ‘feeling’ would mean something completely different if I had lived those years in some other context.
@John the Drunkard (#25):
To some extent, it’s like trying to describe what you perceive as a particular colour. I’ve grown up with Y chromosomes, and I think I feel male, but with congenital hypopituitarism playing havoc with my hormone levels my whole life (particularly during the critical developmental years), is my perception of being male the same as someone of normal pituitariness?
The attitudes of the herd are not a result of authoritarian parents, so we should look elsewhere for confusing variables. We shouldn’t bother going directly to the primary source of anguish, we should look at the nebulous variables of the herd. People who reproduce are always blameless, and they don’t influence the attitudes of the herd.
There are made up numbers flying all over the place, from 1 in 13 transwomen are murdered, to “terfs” murdered 50K trans people, etc etc. Its just a non-stop parade of made up numbers that people repeat ad nauseum. I’m quite excited to see some real numbers from planned parenthood soon.
What happens to trans and gay kids (and adults) is appalling. I have to say in the context of schools and child peer interactions you don’t need to be trans or gay, just accused of being trans or gay. In fact, I wonder whether most young kids even parse the difference between gay, trans and gender non-conforming? As a geeky, quiet and withdrawn kid I was different, so I was accused of being ‘girly’. That translated to gay/homo. Does an 11 year old think to themselves “Is this person presenting as trans-fem or effeminate gay male?” Or do they just say “This person is different from me and my friends, so I’m going to call them the worst thing I can think of that causes them the greatest pain possible.” I think it is the latter, but probably at a much more instinctive level and not nearly so rationally thought out.
I’m sure that later in the teens distinctions are drawn, but the effect and intent are pretty much indistinguishable, the taunts will just be a bit sharpened. My point is that you do not need to be trans or gay to suffer from trans or gay bullying. Being cis-straight does not make the effect of that bullying any less real.
Particularly where younger children are involved I think the ‘crime’ committed is to be different in any way and often (in the absence of being fat, smelly or mentally impaired) the worst thing that can be ascribed to you is being girl-like. Later in life when real nuance and understanding might be applied the die has already been cast.
To put that another way, I think that a lot of the abuse and discrimination faced by trans women and effeminate gay men comes from the fact that they are choosing to take on second class citizen status and therefore they deserve what they surely know they are going to get; but that by not even being real women they are engaging in duplicity toward the poor men who might be suckered into thinking or acting on lustful thoughts towards them. Because, you know, it’s the duty of all women to be available to men.
That last point also plays out against trans men and butch lesbians who commit the ‘crime’ of being unavailable to men.
I’m sure that trans people often face an extra level of hatred and abuse (particularly so now that being gay is generally much more acceptable). I also suspect that the depth of that hatred is not a particular special form, but is rather an additive hatred composed variously of sexism, misogyny, outrage at the loss of availability and perceived cheating and various forms of fear of difference in and of itself.
The sort of person who heaps abuse (or worse) upon gay and trans people isn’t going to stop just because we define gender identity in a particular way. They are angry and frightened about the difference and the challenge that gay/trans-ness presents to their world view and underlying sense of entitlement.
In a bizarre kind of way it explains the manner in which so many cis-het men fetishize attractive bi/lesbian women because you get the forbidden combined with the available.
I’m sure these are not original thoughts, but sometimes it bears restating the obvious.
To Dana (@9) regarding whether gender exists biologically separate from biological sex: the only way this can be meaningful is by the existence of individuals where gender is different from sex. This is what trans people say they are. The questions this raises are whether the root of trans identification is biological and if so how does that happen and whether there is a way to test if this is the case (at least in some trans individuals).
Now your confidence that there can only be two sexes because that’s how human reproduction works and there can’t be deviations from this is obviously baseless because biology is messy and the correct description of the general picture does not apply to every individual. For pretty much every generalization about human biology there will be individuals for which it isn’t true.
Sexual development is a complex and multi-step process, which is why it can go atypical in so many different ways, often resulting in individuals classified as intersex. Sometimes the difference is visible at birth, sometimes only during puberty, and sometimes only when a person is seeking for reasons for infertility.
The fetal brain expresses receptors for sex hormones. Thus it is not implausible that in some individuals the response to these hormones in the fetal brain was somewhat divergent from the typical pattern or the exposure of the fetal brain was somewhat different from the typical pattern. If this is true, and if this is the reason for gender dysphoria in at least some individuals then trans identity in these individuals has a biological source and is basically a form of intersex condition where the nature of intersex-edness is not in differences in the genitals or visible secondary sex traits but in the brain.
Even if we as a society manage to abandon all stereotypes and preconceptions regarding gender roles, there probably still be people who will feel dysphoria over the genitals they have and their secondary sexual traits.
Now, even if all the above is true, it may not be true for all the people who identify as trans. Maybe there is a sub-population that identifies as trans for other reasons, including a wish to access gender roles they feel are closed to them. Maybe in a more egalitarian society where people are free to explore, mix and match gender roles such people will not feel the need to identify as trans. But we don’t live in that society, so I don’t see why ‘we’ should object to people gender transitioning even if the underlying reason for their trans-ness is not biological.