Non credo
Another particularly surprising bit of dialogue from a thread on the AUSA Womensfest page. I’m calling the characters A, B and C even though all this is public, in case they don’t want their names bandied about on some blog.
A: like straight up if you’re worried enough about two cis women in a position of power being called cunts very implicitly for, you know, actively enacting transmisogyny that you’re bothered with that immensely more than with the transmisogyny (which, you know, at its absolute tamest involves being called much, much worse), as someone who kind of has a cunt depending how you define that: you’re a cunt.
…
it’s often cis women who are the most violent to trans women because it’s one of the few ways in which cis women benefit from the policing of womanhood, that they’re “more authentic” than trans women.
…
B: Okay. I don’t want to make this nitpicky, but I am genuinely surprised – you’re saying MOST of the violence committed against transwomen comes from ciswomen?
Yes, I’m aware of the policing of gender, and the way oppressed groups benefit from oppressing others. But literally, literal physical violence? Transwomen are most often murdered, not by cismen, but by ciswomen???
C: As a trans woman I can absolutely confirm that cis women – feminists in particular – have been the most violently and insidiously transmisogynist towards me + ppl I know.
B: what [C] said. also: the group of people most fervently dedicated to getting poor trans women fired (and — it is near impossible to get hired as a trans woman, a lot of the time, so this is a death sentence), evicted, and otherwise deprived of the basic essentials of life are a large group of cis women.
like, virtually none of them are cis men.
hundreds. of cis women.
A: Oh, yes, of course – even as a ciswoman (maybe? we could go with queer but I want to avoid labels here), I can confirm the kinds of insidious, horrifying, nonphysical (and occasionally physical) violence I have experienced at the hands of women of all kinds.
That is horrendous, and in no way to be dismissed. But I was talking about the kinds of physical violence that goes with – and that I have experienced with – being called a cunt.B: lmao ok so basically what you’re saying is “i don’t believe these frail female-bodied cis women could beat up a trans woman”, is that right? if not, please clarify why you’re so disbelieving of this
it has happened to my friends. it happens most often when groups of cis women jump one trans girl. i’m not going into this further out of respect for the trans women on this thread who don’t deserve to be traumatized for the sake of proving something to you.
So there it is: the claim is that women are the source of violence against trans women. Not men, but women. Especially feminists.
Again, no words.
She says it has happened to her friends. She says “it happens most often when groups of cis women jump one trans girl.” “Happens,” as though it’s an ongoing repetitive phenomenon. But she’s not going to provide a scrap of evidence of it, because it would traumatize some unspecified people.
Christ. I’m going to say it at the risk of being screen-shotted.
What a fucking liar.
Perhaps Australian cis women are more violent than cis women in other countries? Or she’s a liar.
I tried googling violence against transwomen. I couldn’t find a lot about the perpetrators. One report said 29% of transgender people had at least experienced one assault by a woman. What is the clear from skimming articles is that people who are transgender experience more violence and that transwomen of color are especially vulnerable. There also seems to be a conspcern is that transgender people are more susceptible to police violence. People no matter cis or trans status are more likely to be assaulted by someone they know
Cis dingoes.
(Cough) Auckland, New Zealand. Not Australia. Sore point for many. Bit like Canadian tourists being told how much people love whatever part of the U.S. They are assumed to be from.
However, back to the topic. Yeah, the claim just seems extraordinary. I’m sure cis women somewhere have, do and will commit physical or other violence on trans women. It’s a big world. But the claim that the vast majority comes from vis women requires extraordinary evidence, not assertion.
I mean, I’ve met men who have expressed the desire to commit violence against gay and trans people. I’ve never actually heard a woman do that.
As a Canadian, Rob, I hang my head in shame. No excuse except that I saw the event was called “AUSA” and assumed it was set in Australia. I didn’t even notice that it was in Auckland.
Actually, on reflection, scrub the call for extraordinary evidence. Perfectly ordinary evidence would suffice.
Warning: depressing read at the link.
Trans people live with a very high risk of violence.
Not every murder on this list has been solved. But where the murderer(s) are known, they’re men (or at least go by masculine names). Every one.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unlawfully_killed_transgender_people
I see claims such as this…
… and I am bemused at how the claimants don’t realise they are endorsing the distinction between “trans women” and “cis women”, though it is the very distinction they ostensibly decry and strive against.
(And my quote marks indicate quotations here, not paraphrases)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beating_of_Chrissy_Lee_Polis
It funny they should say that, since I was under the impression that simply refusing to accept that there’s such a thing as “male” and “female” minds – or that there is a way of thinking or feeling that all who call themselves “women” have in common which is different from the way those who call themselves “men” think or feel – was sufficient to make you a transmisogynist of the absolute worst kind.
Well, by that criterion nothing that Ophelia – or any other supposed “TERF” I know – has said or done qualifies as transmisogyny, even at its absolute tamest, since their thoughtcrime boils down to saying things that supposedly imply some problematic attitudes if you accept every questionable inference and unstated premise of some ridiculously lengthy analysis.
Then maybe, I’m wrong, and disagreeing with male and female minds is now an act of violence in itself.
I think there may be a difference between who commits most acts of violence (bathrooms?), and who is most violent towards (e.g. murders) trans women.
I wonder if there are any citations for this? It’s certainly not borne out by the Chrissy Lee Pollis case (however horrifying) where two teenage girls (14 / 19) attacked a 22 year old trans women.
Either way, I don’t think that calling a vagina cupcake event “actively enacting transmisogyny” necessarily helps the discussion.
I have a lot of trouble finding claims like the above, that other women are the most dangerous and violent enemies of transwomen, without some kind of credible evidence. Call me what you like. But the “it happens to my friends” or “it happens to me and my friends” is not evidence of a widespread phenomenon. I’d say that It is modern folklore, like the friend whose aunt who found a big spider in her ratted up hairdo, or the friend of a friend whose cousin found a human finger in a can of soup. . . but of course a new vicious internetty kind of modern folklore designed to actually hurt people who have done nothing beyond 1) get born with a vagina and 2) use their brains for thinking.
A, B, and C above do not sound like people who can think straight. Pass me one of those rude cupcakes, please.
Can we double check what A, B, and C said? It sounds to me as if some of the things attributed to A are more consistent with B’s initial comment, and vice versa.
Regarding ” ‘male’ and ‘female’ minds” (how’s that for an excuse for putting something into conversation that is generally relevant to several topics in the blog but not to any particular conversation?):
I recently heard an episode of Wait Wait Don’t Tell Me, the NPR comedy news “quiz” show. One of the bits on the show concerned a recent study that “found” (yeah, I’m skeptical) that transmen discovered they lost their abilities for multitasking after they transitioned (genital surgery was implied but not explicitly stated, if I recall correctly). It was of course taken as a given that women are better at multitasking, and that these results were valid. A joke was made about how transmen felt themselves becoming more stupid, which made me think of the irony that men are considered simultaneously more smart and more stupid than women, depending on the context of the discussion.
I haven’t looked for the study in question, but I thought I’d mention the bit anyway; doubtless there are other fans of the show who participate here.
Funny, people tend to be less good at skills they practice less often.
Yeah, I heard that too–I wouldn’t be surprised if it were true, but I figured this was the reason:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereotype_threat
Apparently ‘physical violence’ now includes being called names. I know the rationalisation is going to be something along the lines of ‘being called something so offensive causes actual sensations – hurt, loss of security, perhaps even physical pain – and these things have actual physiological roots.’ Which is perfectly obvious and yet irrelevant, as the cause is still verbal rather than physical and that’s what the goddamn words mean for crying out loud. But of course mentioning that basic function of language will be taken as diminishing trans* experiences or erasure or some such, and suddenly anyone that tries to inject a modicum of nuance is a transmisogynist oh shit this seems familiar.
Nuance is dead, long live outrage!