The opposite of engaging
Paul Sims did an interview for the Catholic Herald, and wants to know what people think. (At least he did; the post is a couple of weeks old now.)
Ed West sets the scene for Herald readers.
Last month two groups of people met in a church in central London to discuss gay adoption, abortion and religious schools. On one side were representatives of Catholic Voices, on the other a group from the Central London Humanist Group.
The point, says Paul Sims of New Humanist magazine, was “to experiment with the idea of Humanists and Catholics sitting down and engaging with each other on contentious issues in a cordial manner”.
Yes but (I’ve said this before, I’m sorry for the repetition) Catholic Voices are not just “Catholics” – they are a self-appointed PR group formed to defend the Vatican’s views:
a bureau of Catholic speakers able to articulate with conviction the Church’s positions on major contentious issues in the media.
Talking to them is not the same thing as talking to a generic or random group of Catholics; it’s talking to a group whose purpose is to defend views chosen and handed down by other people. It’s hard to think of a category of group it is more pointless to talk to when as Paul said
the point, as I explained in a piece in the current issue of New Humanist, is to experiment with the idea of humanists and Catholics sitting down and engaging with each other on contentious issues in a cordial manner.
Catholic Voices won’t be engaging with humanists on the issues. They will be defending the church’s positions on those issues, which is the opposite of “engaging.”
I’ve just been reading an article at The National Secular Society site on the subject which throws up some very alarming things about the newly formed Catholic Voices.
“The Vatican will not be changed by persuasion, it has to be forced”
Terry Sanderson on the futility of trying to reason with the Vatican
“Before the Pope’s visit to the UK, a group called Catholic Voices was set up to refute criticism of the Vatican, the pontiff and the Church generally. These propagandists — chief among whom, Jack Valero, the boss of Opus Dei in Britain — were trained to obscure, distort and contradict arguments about issues such as priestly child abuse, the Vatican’s ban on condoms in the fight against AIDS and the treatment of women and homosexuals by the Church.”
The same thought as when I first read about this: What a funny kind of conversation. Everyone involved must think of themselves as diplomats. Like, Sims and his droogs must imagine that, by meeting with Catholic Voices, they are putting off the day that the Vatican bombs the Cavendish Laboratory.
And, as has been pointed out previously, you will be hard pressed to find any Catholic Voices acknowledgment that such a meeting ever took place! It’s like, having gotten bored with the lack of interest in their mission, somebody said, “Hey, I know someone in the Central London Humanist Group.” “Yeah, sounds like a kick, as long as it’s not official.”
It is infuriating that these kinds of discussions, and the policies the Catholic Church seems to prefer to promote, center on issues where the Church aligns with right-wing politics, such as abortion, religious schools, and issues around sexuality, rather than the death penalty, torture, and support of the poor, where the Church might be seen to be aligned with liberal interests.
Humanists don’t seem to be helping in this case, and seem to be acting rather naively.
The pope came to Britain, and the first thing he did was to speak of the atheist roots of Nazism, and, essentially, to tar all non-believers with this brush. Plus, of course, his continuing opposition to what he calls relativism, which is as close to an acronym as you can get for “doesn’t believe in the absolute morality of the catholic church.” And Paul Sims is concerned about “the tone of the debate during the Pope’s UK visit”! Give me strength. The church is not going to dialogue or discuss. It knows the truth and would impose it if it could. What puerile nonsense is this? The catholic church is a hierarchical structure. The pope is at the bloody top, and he is considered infallible. (Of course, someone will surely add the qualification, ‘when he speaks ex cathedra’. But when is that? Best be on the safe side when you live in a tyranny.) Besides, I listened to quite a few of the speeches at the London protest, with Dawkins, Robertson, Hari et al. And the tone was great. So they insulted the pope. The man needs to be insulted. He is, after all, just a man. Read the Catechism of the Catholic Church. This represents the bottom line when talking to catholics, and no one below the pope is going to change it (and the pope sure as hell isn’t). They may disagree, but that’s where their church stands, whatever they may think. Naive, Egbert, doesn’t really quite do it. How about blind and stupid? And if I hear those words ‘aggressive atheism’, written by an atheist trying to make nice with religious tyrants, I’m going to puke.
“I believe we do have a purpose; that we are made for greater things. Atheistic secularism ultimately diminishes us; it kills the human spirit under the pretence of liberating it.”(Murphy-O’Connor/Guardian 24/3/2008)”Cardinal Cormac Murphy-O’Connor, described a lack of faith as “the greatest of evils” and blamed atheism for war and destruction, implying that it was a greater evil even than sin itself.” (Times 22/5/2009)”For Jesus, the inability to believe in God and to live by faith is the greatest of evils.You see the things that result from this are an affront to human dignity, destruction of trust between peoples, the rule of egoism and the loss of peace. One can never have true justice, true peace, if God becomes meaningless to people.”(Murphy-O’Connor/Times May,2009)”There is, in my view, something not totally human if they leave out the transcendent; if they leave out an aspect of what I believe everyone is made for, which is a search for transcendental meaning – we call it god. If you say that has no place, then I feel it is a diminishment of what it is being human because to be human in the sense I believe humanity is directed, because made by god, I think if you leave that out then you are not fully human.” (Murphy-O’Connor/BBC may, 2009)”As we reflect on the sobering lessons of the atheist extremism of the twentieth century, let us never forget how the exclusion of God, religion and virtue from public life leads ultimately to a truncated vision of man and of society and thus to a reductive vision of the person and his destiny.”(Ben 16/Edinburgh 2010)
We know the position of RCC Inc. It is simply that those who are not subject to them, who do not agree with them, are not full members of society, or even of the human race, and do not deserve consideration. Any “meeting” between Opus Dei operatives and humanists is, on the RCC side, pure window dressing.
And lest anyone think it is only catholics who think this way, here is a representative american protestant view:
“No, I don’t know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God.” (George H Bush)
As many of you familiar with the card game Poker realize, a “tell” is a physical manifestation of deception. For example, a poker player unconciously tugs a lock of hair prior to bluffing. Recognizing “tells” gives the astute player a significant advantage.
Well, in theist-humanist “let’s find common ground” meetings, the theists have a tell. It is the opening of their mouths to speak.
Great! Catholic doctrine is still causing great suffering around the world after this little chat, and there is no prospect of this unrelenting tide of hurt being turned back. But as long as the tone of the debate was refreshing, that’s the main thing, isn’t it.
When the lions try to find common ground with lambs by starting out with a predator vs. prey perspective is it any wonder the lambs get nervous. Any bridge building just makes it easier for the lions.
It’s just a pity that so many lambs think they will be eaten last if they offer up a tasty gnu first.
Eric
Better have a lot of barf bags ready.
The Benedictine monk at the meeting was none other than Fr Christopher Jamieson, who has been tipped as a contender to succeed Cardinal Cormac Murphy O’Connor as the next Archbishop of Westminster. He also targetted the behaviour of Disney in particular, which he says is “a classic example” of how consumerism is being sold as an alternative to finding happiness in traditional morality. Think Cardinal Basil Hume who mixed with royalty/religious from all sides of the religious divide and was hugely reverred by all.
Past Tense” The monk was tipped in 2009 to become Cardinal.
Quote from the monk “The unpalatable truth for the neo-atheist movement is that in the 21st century, religion is going to play a growing role in the public forum. It’s evidently already happening.”
Thanks, sailor – all those quotes: while the Cardinal is going on about transcendence and being human, what he is really saying is that his church has the lowdown on what it actually means and is aiming to impose the rules about it. It’s the power of the RCC that’s at stake, not any of that wishy-washy human realisation stuff.
Yes, it’s happening here. But they’re the ones who find it unpalatable.
Thanks to the Polish gangster who was the previous whitewashed grave in the Vatican, opus diabolicum has now totally infiltrated the organization. There is a great possibility that the next psychopat who gonna reign one billion people shall be an opus diabolicum member. Don’t forget that these hypocrites hate mankind, how more they want to be like their ALLMIGHTY imaginairy Führer, how more they hate normal people (the imperfect ones, you know). Their sick mode of life has only one goal : power. That’s all they really love. Remember “The brothers Karamazov” and the chapter “The inquisitor”. I have known a priest who was very afraid of this, I think he realized what the real face of his church was. And I don’t think that the gays are the real problem for them, it’s something else, I haven’t still found the real reason. When I must be honest I don’t like the possibility for gays to adopt children either, I don’t think this was a good idea and I think the conservatives has a winning point here. Many shall choose their side for this reason.
Yeah, Deepak, I’m planning on putting in a big supply. It really is getting tiresome. After all, has no one noticed the pope’s tone? He keeps on condemning people for what he thinks is relativism, but is plain good sense. He blames secularism for the rash of child abuse by catholic priests. And he’s perhaps more responsible than the guys actually doing it, because he’s enabled it, making sure that they don’t get reported, swearing abused children to secrecy. The man’s nerve knows no limit. And we are the aggressive ones!! And Paul Sims makes nice with the catholics — why? Because they’re going to see the light? Forget it. They’re lost in the middle ages.
@eric
I know some Catholics are extremely unhappy with the current pope(my wife!) – though they just refuse to do anything about the whole institution – I just don’t understand it. Somehow they believe the next guy will be “better”.
It’s idolatry, Deepak. They know the pope’s just a man, really, but, after all, head of the Church and all that, some of that holiness must rub off.
The Good Friday liturgy according to the Tridentine missal, contains a prayer “For the conversion of the Jews”. The prayer then refers to Jewish “blindness” and prays for them to be “delivered from their darkness. After protest, the Catholic Church acted by deleting a reference to their “blindness”. However, Jewish leaders are still disappointed about the revision. Josemaria Escriva, the founder of Opus Dei – continued to use the old Mass privately in preference to the new rite. The Latin Rite, in this modern day, I surmise, would also be used by right wing Catholic conservatives of the kind that the Humanists encountered at the meeting. If Humanists want to communicate with Catholics, per se, why did they not chose to speak with ordinary RC”s on the street. Did they really believe they would get somewhere with advocates of the Tridentine Mass and very aggressive Proselytism.
After serious complaints from the Anti-Defamation league and others the supersessionist theology language was amended in the Good Friday prayer in 2008, Pope Benedict XVI had decided to amend the Good Friday prayer for the Jews contained in the Roman Missal of 1962. Old and new liturgies must now use the following prayer.
This prayer will be chanted all over the Roman Catholic world on Good Friday. The church, whilst getting its worshippers to pray for Jews’ conversion, by way of veiled language, also uses the medium of the Jews – whom it cannot forgive for crucifying Jesus, to get the message that Jesus Christ is the Saviour of all men, across to the very Humanists who want to dialogue with the church. The Humanist’s haven’t a hope in hell of persuading the RC church to think any differently about its dogmas. The church doesn’t do Humanism. Despite the amendment to the above prayer, it took a very long time for that change to occur. it’s imbedded in the very nature of the church that it is the one true church. Outsiders of the church must be always prayed for, you can rest assured that the church members who encountered the Humanists would have prayed for them before and in the aftermath of the amicable meeting. Their atheist souls would have been offered up to God. The rosary would have been recited for them behind the monastery walls and even masses offered up for their conversion. Think Nicene Creed! That’s the way the church works.
What is so extraordinary about this stuff is how they can manipulate emotional keywords and say nothing whatsoever. And they convince people that there’s something nice and vague and woolly which is so, so true. If you really want to know how to lie, learn from this.
@GordonWillis as with your block quote which is originally taken from Benedict XVI’s third encyclical titled “Caritas in Veritate” (Charity in Truth), 07/07 09 the pope also says:
Somebody should tell the Humanists to please not be in the business of obstructing the development of peoples. They’re not helping.
@Gordon
If you add ass before the holy I would tend to agree.
Breaking news: Pope exonerates Jews for Jesus’ death in new book.
The pope’s book, not only confirms church teaching refuting the deicide charge “but seals it for a new generation of Catholics. Interpretations to the contrary have been used for centuries to justify the persecution of Jews.