Harris and Pigliucci: On moral philosophy
Say what you will, Sam Harris knows how to stir a hive and send its inhabitants into a positive buzz. Some of them will turn this into an opportunity to get some intellectual exercise. Others may fly into a frenzy and sting at anything and everything, eventually disembowelling themselves intellectually in the process. Of the first, Brother Blackford (to co-opt a recently Coyned soubriquet) is a prime example: his ruminations are clearly valuable to the discussion. But where clarity is its own reward, the contributions of others need to be carefully disentangled from their ill-conceived targets, in order that everybody may see clearly where they went off course. Massimo Pigliucci has thankfully supplied us with such an opportunity—one is tempted to say: again.
This opportunity then is not one to defend Harris’s book, The Moral Landscape (TML); he is a big guy and can take care of himself (and his ideas). On the contrary, it is one to positively assert the values and proper methods of rational criticism—which, to get slightly ahead of myself, are fundamentally the same in philosophy as in science. Also, I might be able to slip one or two somewhat novel ideas into the discussion to try and help propel it forward.
If philosophy’s goal is to teach us how to think well, then its first order of business is, in Wittgenstein’s words, “to make [thoughts] clear and to give them sharp boundaries”. At the heart of TML is the repudiation of the idea that facts and values live in different realms. That idea has often been equated with the is–ought problem, usually traced back to David Hume. In his review, Pigliucci takes the same road, asserting that Harris “spectacularly” fails to undermine the separation of facts from values.
At this point, we would have to consider two things: is the supposed separation absolute, i.e. is there no conceivable way to get from one to the other; and if the separation is not absolute, what are the conditions that get us from one to the other. The first is easily settled, as even Hume takes pains to point out that, for the traversal to be successful, “’tis necessary that it shou’d be observ’d and explain’d; and at the same time that a reason should be given”. While a logical deduction may not be possible, other rational inferences are explicitly not ruled out—and it would be apposite to point out that any science of course relies on such forms of induction for its conclusions.
That out of the way, the question becomes: how do we get from an ultimate goal to concrete instructions for action? Pigliucci thinks he has found an insurmountable stumbling block in that science cannot compel us to accept any criterion that we might use to judge an action moral: “science cannot make us agree on whether that particular criterion (pain) is moral or not.” But Harris is perfectly aware of this complaint:
It is essential to see that the demand for radical justifiaction leveled by the moral skeptic could not be met by any branch of science. … It would be impossible to prove that our definition of science is correct, because our standards of proof will be built into any proof we would offer. What evidence could prove that we should value evidence? What logic could demonstrate the importance of logic? (TML, 37)
This very closely follows John Stuart Mill’s views on the matter, expressed a mere 140 years earlier:
Questions of ultimate ends are not amenable to direct proof. Whatever can be proved to be good, must be so by being shown to be a means to something admitted to be good without proof. The medical art is proved to be good, by its conducing to health; but how is it possible to prove that health is good? (Utilitarianism, Ch I)
Science cannot show us what truth is, but it can show us what is true. Similarly, science cannot show why we should value well-being, but it can show us, and in that sense determine, what we should do in order to achieve it. This is not an over-reaching of science into fields where it does not belong. Also, Pigliucci’s accusation of “scientism” (a hopelessly ill-defined term, or as Dan Dennett says: nonsense) is miles wide of the mark:
if we can define “science” as any type of rational-empirical inquiry into “facts” (the scare quotes are his) then we are talking about something that is not at all what most readers are likely to understand when they pick up a book with a subtitle that says “How Science Can Determine Human Values” (my italics).
Three things. One, that definition of science is hardly controversial. Two, the assertion about readers’ presuppositions would need supporting evidence. And three, Harris explicitly deals with this objection—in the same note that Pigliucci quotes to support his charge of “scientism”:
Granted, one doesn’t generally think of events like assassinations as “scientific” facts, but the murder of President Kennedy is as fully corroborated a fact as can be found anywhere, and it would betray a profoundly unscientific frame of mind to deny that it occurred. I think “science,” therefore, should be considered a specialized branch of a larger effort to form true beliefs about events in our world. (TML, 195n2)
Contrary to Pigliucci’s assertion about what readers expect when picking up a science book, and contrary to the assertion that Harris’s conception of science is well out of the mainstream, we think of all sorts of disciplines as “sciences” (including, of course, all historical sciences, from history to palaentology). Moreover, we would also characterise the systematic inquiry into a murder as “scientific”—to quote Bertrand Russell, “Whatever knowledge is attainable, must be attained by scientific methods” (Religion and Science). To make matters worse, even Pigliucci’s attempted separation of philosophy from science is not successful—Russell, again, on the continuousness of the two:
those questions which are already capable of definite answers are placed in the sciences, while those only to which, at present, no definite answer can be given, remain to form the residue which is called philosophy. (The Problems of Philosophy, Ch. XV)
In a sense, then, philosophy is the rational exploration of hypothetical space, where science is that of real space. In its pursuit of truth, moreover, science necessarily generates its own values. Harris dutifully points this out in the Introduction of TML:
the very idea of “objective” knowledge (i.e., knowledge acquired through honest observation and reasoning) has values built into it, as every effort we make to discuss facts depends upon principles that we must first value (e.g., logical consistency, reliance on evidence, parsimony, etc.). (TML, 11)
This idea of “an ethic for science which derives directly from its own activity” is one that was possibly first elaborated on by Jacob Bronowski in 1956:
The values of science derive neither from the virtues of its members, nor from the finger-wagging codes of conduct by which every profession reminds itself to be good. They have grown out of the practice of science, because they are the inescapable conditions for its practice. (Science and Human Values, 69)
Which, incidentally, leads him to reject the idea of an is–ought problem outright: “‘Ought’ is dictated by ‘is’ in the actual inquiry for knowledge.” (Origins of Knowledge and Imagination, 129) This, of course, nicely ties in with what Jerry Coyne, among others, has maintained about the status of methodological naturalism as a principle in science, which has been falsely equated with religious dogmas—all of which is of some consequence in the accommodationism debate.
What all this amounts to is another idea of Bronowski’s, a “social injunction”, as he calls it, and another stab at Hume: “We ought to act in such a way that what is true can be verified to be so.” (Science and Human Values, 66) Pigliucci’s review repeatedly runs afoul of this principle. The two most instructive cases will have to suffice to make this point.
First, the use of painfully inadequate arguments, especially the appeal to authority. In reference to Harris’s well-argued consideration of lie-detecting neuroscience, Pigliucci has this to say: “If these sentences do not conjure the specter of a really, really scary Big Brother in your mind, I suggest you get your own brain scanned for signs of sociopathology.” That anyone, let alone a professor of philosophy, should literally argue, ‘If you don’t agree with me, you should get your head examined’, is deplorable.
Second, inaccurate and misleading representation of what the other person says. Harris excuses his omission of philosophical jargon by (only half-jokingly, I suspect) asserting that it every piece of it “directly increases the amount of boredom in the universe” (TML, 197n1). Pigliucci says this amounts to a dismissal of all of metaethics, that Harris finds it boring, that TML as a whole “shies away from philosophy”. (And so on and all-too-predictably on.) Not only is this implausible even given the quote that Pigliucci used; Harris explicitly gives his reasons for “not engaging more directly with the academic literature on moral philosophy”: he arrived at his position not because of that literature, but for independent logical reasons; and he wants to make the discussion as accessible to lay readers as possible. Again, in such a way to distort a position beyond recognition is deplorable.
Paraphrasing Wittgenstein, we can thus arrive at a simple philosophical injunction: ‘whereof one cannot speak fairly, thereof one should be silent.’ Which, it unfortunately needs to be added, is not to say that anybody should shut up. It is a friendly reminder, in the interest of all concerned, to raise your game.
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Two things bother me about the many recent critiques of gnu atheist or more specifically science/religion incompatibilists. The “scientism” tag has grown increasingly tired, and to me it smacks of projection. The religious or accommodationists cannot distinguish between the faith required for religion and acceptance of reasonable assumptions, as if the particulars of the underlying belief to which one’s “faith” is ascribed does not matter.
Secondly, and somewhat relatedly, is the narrow domain that they allow to science. Critics want to enforce a strict method in science, rejecting the more general “rational-empircal inquiry” to use Pigliucci’s phrasing. This neglects the wonderful diversity of science that you point out. I really like your description of the relationship of and similarity found between science and philosophy as it highlights the more general aspects of science.
“In a sense, then, philosophy is the rational exploration of hypothetical space, where science is that of real space.”
Kudos to you if you came up with it.
Thanks for this, Ophelia. Some critics seem to be either a) confusing Harris’s sometimes dismissive tone regrading meta-ethics with complete ignorance regarding the topic (which is false), or b) simply not reading him carefully as a result of a knee-jerk devotion to their own reading of (especially) Hume.
The worst of these responses don’t even appear to have registered the crucial sentence in Hume that you quote – pointing out that while it’s possible to move from is to ought, most people simply don’t justify the move. Instead, the argument seems to be “Hume said you’re wrong. So shut up.”.
Apologies, Peter – didn’t check the byline….
I’d like to point out that Pigliucci is not only an atheist, but regards himself as more of a “confrontationalist” than an “accomodationist” (despite the bad blood between him and Jerry Coyne). He simply thinks that the conflict is between reason-in-general and religion, where what he thinks of as reason-in-general is close to what Coyne means by science. Or more succinctly, the problem he has with New Atheists is that he feels like they are broadening the definition of science so as to encroach on philosophy’s turf, which defensive motive comes out quite clearly in the article.
Frankly, I find it the “proper” or “standard” definition of science to be a rather uninteresting question between people who already agree on basic principles of reason generally. Although I will say that it’s not clear to me that, at the present time, a background in neuroscience in and of itself gives one general qualifications in ethics or sociology. And, more generally, I don’t think that using “science” to include all of mathematics, logic, and rational reasoning would be quite in accordance with the word’s historical or popular meaning.
My main problem with Massimo here is that he just isn’t very clear on what he thinks of the fact-value distinction. I’m not sure where his values come from, for example. The vegetarian/bestiality argument is a common one (at least I’ve heard it a lot). It’s also fairly ineffective; I’ve even read an argument in which it was used in reverse, to justify bestiality on the grounds that meat-eating is obviously OK! Obviously this sort of argument plays a legitimate part in vetting moral principles, but I think it has its limits as an ultimate justification for how ethics should work.
On the other hand, Harris seems to take well-being largely for granted, and advocates deriving secondary values from this one using scientific inquiry. This is cheating a little bit, for someone who claims to have beaten the fact-value distinction, and I’m not convinced that he’s quite beaten the accusation that well-being is too vague a basic value. What exactly is being maximized here? But he’s not cheating not to the extent Massimo seems to think he is.
And of course, there’s what you quoted:
If these sentences do not conjure the specter of a really, really scary Big Brother in your mind, I suggest you get your own brain scanned for signs of sociopathology (or watch a good episode of Babylon 5).
I took the brain-scan thing as just a bad joke, and I actually agree that the scenario is rather creepy. However, this is essentially “emotivism”, not so different from the “yuck factor” which was insufficient a few paragraphs earlier.
There’s also this:
Moreover, Harris entirely evades philosophical criticism of his positions, on the simple ground that he finds metaethics “boring.”
Of course, Harris is not so much evading philosophical criticism, as simply not mentioning sophisticated philosophy as part of his own reasoning. I don’t think he can even pretend that “Science can determine human values.” is somehow not a basically philosophical statement. I do think that Harris excessively discounts philosophy; philosophy is, if nothing else, good for more precisely formulating and then demolishing particularly ridiculous positions (though there’s always some subjectivity in how dead an argument really is). But I don’t think he’s dodging it entirely.
Lastly, I do have to point out that “‘Ought’ is dictated by ‘is’ in the actual inquiry for knowledge.” is chipping away at only one section of the fact-value distinction. It says that if you are looking for knowledge, there’s a particular, practical way to do it. It doesn’t really touch much of ethics, which is about treatment of human beings when many of the relevant facts are well-known (one would need a great deal more to solve trolley problems, for instance).
Is it me, or does nearly every strongly negative reaction to The Moral Landscape give Harris the least charitable reading humanly possible on every single point?
K, and the rest,
It may be that Harris encourages a particularly uncharitable reading by saying overreaching things on his whirlwind book tour. It could also be that Harris’ defenders don’t realize just how radical a point he’s making, and so regard strong critiques as relying on harshly uncharitable readings.
Of course there’s movement from ought to is. The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy summarizes the is/ought problem as allowing a derivation of ought when at least one premise is evaluative in the first place. The problem is how to move from a set of purely descriptive premises to a moral conclusion. There’s really no controversy when the problem is put this way. You can’t. A goal or evaluative premise must be present to begin with to make the move. But then, that doesn’t tell you anything about how to evaluate the premises to begin with (say, between Hitler’s evaluations and ours) and presumably that’s important.
As for Harris and his book tour, he’s said that we know the Taliban is wrong when it tries to justify throwing battery acid in a little girl’s face. Now, the members of his audience, many of them, aren’t philosophers, and so may not be well-versed in what moral skepticism is. No matter how intelligent someone is, an emotional appeal to common sense can go through unexamined. But this doesn’t win any real argument, because to simply say that we know it’s wrong in the relevant sense is to beg the question against the moral skeptic.
True enough, we don’t need confirmation that *we* find it wrong, but the point is, *they* don’t. So exactly what are we appealing to to say that they’re mistaken? I’m all ears.
Remember, the Taliban haven’t singed up for our Western/Secular/Liberal/Enlightenment worldview. They won’t be converted by looking at brain scans. They already regard adherence to a particular tradition as morally *better* than what we value. Sam Harris says they’re wrong. How are they wrong?
Sam Harris has also tries to end the argument linguistically. He’s, on his book tour, said, “If you say it’s not wrong when the Taliban throws battery acid in a little girl’s face, I don’t know what you’re talking about.” To which I have to reply, Really? So is it like hearing someone say “Morality is determined by how fast I can drive my golf cart up this hill?” There’s a difference between saying a view is immoral, and saying it’s talking gibberish. If we’re going to say someone’s view is morally wrong, then we have to be able to say more than “I don’t know what you’re talking about.”
Now, as for the ace in the hole argument comparing moral and radical skepticism. This is confused. We have a bunch of phenomenological experience we can appeal to, to answer the radical skeptic. Hilary Putnam said it well in summarizing Pragmatism, “Doubt requires as much justification as belief.” The radical skeptic steps over this doubt/belief line by asking for special justification beyond the senses. True enough we can’t prove that the world is “out there” beyond our minds after we’re taken the radical skeptic seriously, but once we realize what kind of proof he’s demanding, we don’t have to take this kind of skepticism seriously anymore.
On the other hand, morality, if a robust interpretation of its meaning is preserved, says even more than what we have to say to the radical skeptic. Morality says the Taliban is wrong, not only by our standards (remember, Sam Harris means to refute moral relativism as well) by they’re just wrong, period.
I’ve got to be honest, I don’t see anything redeemable here. But again, I’m all ears.
I should add, the Talban’s argument is that we’re wrong. We both have self-contained arguments declaring the other wrong. How do we adjudicate the difference?
If this question frustrates you to the point of asking how we would answer *any* kind of skeptic, remember, there doesn’t have to be a solution, we have to be open to the possibility that there is no answer.
In science, radical skepticism just isn’t anything to get too excited about; we all have more or less the same sensory experience, and it’s been that way for a very long time. The best explanation is that there is an external world that behaves in regular ways that can be understood by a systematic study of it. zzzz
On the other hand, Sam Harris has set out to overcome the moral nihilism and moral relativism that atheism has long been associated with. So he’s set the bar very high for himself in the first place. So how do we adjudicate the difference between ourselves and the Taliban? In a way that isn’t so self-congratulatory that it fails to overcome moral relativism, that is.
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@BenM:
Thanks, Ben. Yeah, I think this is a rather helpful way of looking at what philosophy and science do—although of course it is but one of many possible ways.
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@J. Jeffers:
Maybe you haven’t been all eyes, then. A good start would be pp. 41-2 of TML, where Harris explicitly ties the idea of being able to dismiss certain “moral axioms” out of hand to a defintion of “morality”, and he uses “well-being” at the core of that definition. You can argue with that all you want, but to pretend that Harris uses an ‘argument from obviousness’ is misrepresenting what he says.
Peter Beattie,
As I stated clearly, Harris makes statements on his book tour that appeal to obviousness.
As for his book, my eyes are fine. I’m looking at page 41 right now, and I see this:
“Grounding our values in a continuum of conscious state-one that has the worst possible misery for everyone at its depths and differing degress of well-being at all other points-seems like the only legitimate context in which to conceive of values and moral norms. Of course, anyone who has an alternative set of moral axioms is free to put them forward, just as they are free to define ‘science’ any way they want. But some definitions of ‘morality’ are so bad that we can know, for in advance of any break-through in the science of mind, that they have no place in a serious conversation about how we should live in a meaningful world. The Knights of the Ku Klux Klan have nothing meaningful to say about particle physics, cell physiology, epidemiology, linguistics, economic policy, etc. How is their ignorance any less obvious on the subject of human well-being?”
How is this anything other than an appeal to obviousness, if in fact it’s something that can overcome moral relativism? I’d be happy to agree that Harris should simply stop with his arbitrary account of what’s best if you acknowledge that he’s no tools to refute moral relativism. So take your pick. Either his axioms are as good (or bad) as anyone else’s, or the rhetorical effect of obviousness is what’s needed for people to think he can overcome moral relativism.
Now, should we move on to page 42?
K Taylor (# 6) – it’s you.
Really, the tribal loyalty to Harris on this book is making me very queasy; it’s such a dead on parody of what royalists think gnus do on every subject.
J. Jeffers (#11): “How is this anything other than an appeal to obviousness …?”
In that it explicitly appeals to “well-being” as “the only legitimate context” in which to discuss morality, and in the necessity of having “a serious conversation” about this. Two requirements which are obviously flouted by the KKK and the Taliban. And it is this last fact that is obvious, which gives us licence to dismiss views thus formed. Do you see it now?
Ophelia (#12) – Do you see any more tribal loyalty towards Harris/TML than is generally displayed, say, for Richard Dawkins? My view would be that Harris has received a fair share of robust criticism even from fellow travellers (e.g. Jerry, Russell). Don’t you think?
But stating that well being as we understand it is the “only legitimate context” in which to discuss morality is merely a rhetorical foot stomp. I know you think that putting the “…” in my quote faithfully captures everything I said, but it doesn’t.
I am assuming that there is a reason that people believe that Harris’ argument actually succeeds in refuting moral relativism. If you would like to acknowledge that Harris gives us no tools with which to persuaively overcome moral relativism, then we can reach agreement. If not, then other than by an appeal to obviousness, how is Sam Harris’ argument both coherent and **cogent**? I’ll acknowledge its coherence. Then again, achieving self-contained coherence isn’t all that hard.
You don’t earn a license to dismiss someone by adopting a question begging account of goodness.
In order to demonstrate the wrongness of the Taliban in a way that’s roughly analogous to the way we show Creationism unwarranted, we have to do more than simply adopt a different account of goodness, because saying the Taliban is “immoral” means more than saying they’re merely “different.”
Again, my eyes are fine. Remember the “…if in fact it’s something that can overcome moral relativism” part.
In other words, Peter Beattie,
If differing conceptions just hold differing (but ultimately incomparable) self-contained accounts, then our dismissals of one another are not the same as demonstrating that another view is epistemologically unwarranted, or untrue. In which these dismissals don’t seem to be something we should care that much about, in epistemological conversations like this, at least.
J. Jeffers, you’re confusing two different things here. Your first complaint was: “If we’re going to say someone’s view is morally wrong, then we have to be able to say more than ‘I don’t know what you’re talking about.’” Harris is of course able to say more than that, that’s why I turned your attention to the two criteria contained in the quote on p. 41 of TML. So on this level, there is no appeal to obviousness involved.
If, however, your actual beef is with ‘well-being’ as the defining criterion of the morality of certain acts, that would be a different thing. Harris’s and Mill’s position on this would be to say: Well, that’s what most everybody takes it to be, and we haven’t been able to find a rationally appealing alternative. That, you can argue with; but it is also not an argument of the type ‘it is obvious to me, therefore it is true’.
Peter, yes. I was thinking of commenters – just what I frown on royalists for doing!
Peter Beattie,
Once again, my original post addressed the concerns of a particular commenter that wondered why so many are (allegedly) uncharitable to Sam Harris and his latest project.
And I don’t think I could have been any clearer that Harris’ argument ****if it’s going to succeed**** can only do so by rhetorical impression. The original rhetorical impression he struck was from his book tour, that, once again, I was clear about. He actually said the worst possible misery for everyone is obviously wrong: See for yourself: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUxxZqynsBM In either case, it strikes the same note. If we’re arguing over whether there is such a thing as right and wrong robust enough to do the work we want it to, granting him a premise like the one he asks for in the video is inappropriate.
I did not say that the argument type is “it’s obvious to me, therefore it’s true.” Many informal fallacies aren’t deductive like that, just misdirecting. You imposed upon my original words the interpretation that I’m accusing Harris of a deductive fallacy. Rhetorical effects don’t always have to work that way.
In any case, I’m glad you disapprove, in theory, of gaining rhetorical ground in argument on account of such effects.
Moving on, “Well, that’s what most everybody takes it to be, and we haven’t been able to find a rationally appealing alternative” is not enough, and is not significantly different from “I don’t know what you’re talking about” because alternative views can only be described as “different” under this model, because I think you and I both know (god, I hope) that accusing immoral acts of failing some of sort test of rationality is question begging.
The thing is, we deemed the brutal practices of the Taliban wrong already (but we shouldn’t be super-confident that we’re doing something other than patting ourselves on the back). All we’ve done now is discover physiological correlates to the states that we already deemed good. If there was a meta-ethical issue before, we haven’t solved it on account of our increasing scientific sophistication.
As for whether most everyone else takes goodness to be what Harris says it is, well APPARENTLY NOT! Else we wouldn’t have to talk so much about the Taliban. To say that wrong acts are so because they have some “rational” test is, one again, question begging.
Now, if you would like me to drop the issue of whether Harris’ argument gains traction because of the obvious common sense feeling of the wrongness of throwing acid in little girls’ faces, then fine. But let me assure you that my argument is not that he made a deductive (formal) fallacy.
OK, so, Harris’ account of well being is not enough to overcome moral relativism. I offered an interpretation of why so many are eager to accept that Harris’ account goes through, and I think that’s at least partly because of the emotionally undeniable (obvious) nature of the moral claims he chooses. But I clearly see the distinction between that and whether his account of goodness wins the argument by itself.
What I won’t acknowledge is that Harris’ account gives us the tools to justifiably say anything to the Taliban other than “You all make us sick,” or “You all have a very different value system than ours.” We can justifiably say their practices don’t satisfy our criteria of what counts as good, but we didn’t need Sam Harris to teach us that. After all, a moral relativist can justifiably say that too! Now, if you’re still fixed on arguing over whether there’s a significant difference between saying “You all have a very different values system than us” on the one hand, and “I don’t know what you’re talking about” on the other, then knock yourself out. But you can’t reasonable say I’m confusing the issues.
Incidentally, Peter Battie,
Here’s the video I originally had in mind:
http://blog.ted.com/2010/03/22/science_can_ans/
This is Sam Harris’ pop culture promotion of his ideas. He talks about the Taliban, and the culture of honor in the Middle East a bit. Around 10:15 of the clip, he opens this topic up. Now, if after watching this, you don’t think the rhetorical effect of his speaking is one of appealing to his audience’s already deeply held passionate beliefs, then we probably aren’t going to be able to understand each other better than we already do, which is admittedly not very much. And I hope you understand that not only do rhetorical effect go through at times without being formal fallacies, but they can also go through without the speaker fully realizing that the argument is gaining such ground that way.
But I understand that Sam Harris doesn’t say “It’s obvious to me, therefore it’s true.” And I didn’t in fact say that was his argument.
J. Jeffers (#19) – “What I won’t acknowledge is that Harris’ account gives us the tools to justifiably say anything to the Taliban other than ‘You all make us sick,’ or ‘You all have a very different value system than ours.’” So you keep saying, in so many words. But the fact is that you’re not engaging with Harris’s actual position, which is to say with regard to the Taliban: they do not think that well-being matters; they are demonstrably decreasing well-being; and they are not even having a serious conversation about the previous two points. That, and not, for example, our emotional reaction to seeing somebody’s acid-disfigured face, is the reason to say that the Taliban are immoral, and obviously so. The premise Harris asks to be granted is that the well-being of conscious creatures is the only thing we can properly value. Again, by all means engage his arguments for that, if you think they are wanting; but simply asserting that they are “inappropriate” is not even an argument.
Ophelia (#18) – From what we can see here and at Jerry’s place, for example, it seems to me that at least the problems that Russell highlighted are rather well represented in comments. As to the other side of that coin, do you think his defenders are too mindless in their support, generally speaking? If so, even if I would like to see some more evidence in the TML case, I would agree wholeheartedly with the general point—although I think that the tendency is much more in evidence over at Pharyngula, for example. I would submit this thread as evidence that it would be a good thing to more explicitly police the argumentative good behaviour of commenters, so as to foster a culture of rational criticism across the whole website, if it is indeed devoted to that goal.
Peter Battie, you say,
“… the fact is that you’re not engaging with Harris’s actual position, which is to say with regard to the Taliban: they do not think that well-being matters; they are demonstrably decreasing well-being; and they are not even having a serious conversation about the previous two points. That, and not, for example, our emotional reaction to seeing somebody’s acid-disfigured face, is the reason to say that the Taliban are immoral, and obviously so.”
I engaged with what you’ve accused me of avoiding from the very start when I said that the Taliban don’t care about our conception of goodness, and prefer theirs.
I suppose all I can do now is plug ahead:
The members of the Taliban that are throwing the acid are doing just fine. They prefer the power they get from what they do from any conception of well-being we have to offer. If well-being is synonymous with goodness, then the Taliban do care about well-being, from their point of view. But if well-being merely refers to the subjective feelings we get when we do stuff like help old ladies across the street (and the corresponding brains states that go with these feelings) then Sam Harris hasn’t answered any moral questions, and hasn’t even given us a framework with which to do such a thing.
As for the Taliban’s actions being immoral for the reasons you’ve given, that’s a non-sequitur. They say their actions are better, and they value different things than we do. Why should the acid throwers care about their victims? Saying, “because it hurts them and we should care about that” doesn’t answer, because whether we should care about hurting other people or not is what’s in question in the first place. The Taliban have an alternate moral system. Granted, it doesn’t highly value the phenomena we label “well-being.” But it states that their system is morally superior. The reasons you give for why ours is superior are question-begging. Of course you like your reasons; they’re *your* self-contained reasons!! You continue,
“The premise Harris asks to be granted is that the well-being of conscious creatures is the only thing we can properly value. Again, by all means engage his arguments for that, if you think they are wanting; but simply asserting that they are “inappropriate” is not even an argument.”
Im sorry, I thought asking for a premise that is in question to be granted was obviously inappropriate. My mistake I guess.
Now, I want to stave off what I think you might want to erroneously state, which is that I’m making a mistake when I say
“But if well-being merely refers to the subjective feelings we get when we do stuff like help old ladies across the street (and the corresponding brains states that go with these feelings) then Sam Harris hasn’t answered any moral questions, and hasn’t even given us a framework with which to do such a thing.”
So let me clarify, for your sake, that well-being either is synonymous with moral rightness, in which case we can’t say the Taliban don’t value well-being, or it’s not synonymous with moral rightness and instead merely refers to a phenomena we label “well-being.” If it’s the former, then simply labeling our preferred phenomena “right” and theirs “wrong” is question begging. If it’s the latter, then we haven’t gone beyond our self-contained labels, and therefore can’t refute moral relativism.
K. Taylor:
So what would be a charitable interpretation of someone who sets out to solve an ancient problem without thinking it valuable to consult the most important literature on the subject, far less to answer at least some of the existing and pressing objections to his position?
Harris thinks he can give a satisfactory answer to a philosophical question without really engaging with philosophy!
It almost makes me want to reconsider the Courtier’s Reply (But really, only almost.)
I know what you mean though, Tea, that’s what I was getting at in #12. Disconcerting, isn’t it!
Quite. We really shouldn’t be giving those self-righteous royalists any ammunition, not that they haven’t been quite successful in manufacturing their own out of thin air.
One place I do have to agree with Massimo is that, in a discussion over ethics, I’d talk to Simon Blackburn over Sam Harris any day.
(Also, random pet peeve: we don’t always have a very good idea of which states should be considered healthier than others, or how to balance a risk of one deficit against a risk of another deficit, which can be a big problem in medical decision-making and ethics! So it’s weird when Sam Harris stands before an audience and compares well-being to health in order to assert that the definition is not too vague. It’s like the “I know it when I see it.” approach to defining morality; anyone can play that game, but the point of an ethical system is that you don’t have to resort to that kind of reasoning.)
That’s not a random pet peeve, that’s a very good point.
OK, I’ll revise it and say, I think it’s an important point, but I haven’t read (most of) TML, so I was hesitant to criticize more than Harris’s popular presentation.
J. Jeffers (#23) – “The Taliban have an alternate moral system. Granted, it doesn’t highly value the phenomena we label ‘well-being.’ But it states that their system is morally superior.”
I’ll see your Taliban morality and raise you a Catholic epistemology. Catholics have an alternate system of knowing. Granted, it doesn’t highly value the phenomena we label ‘facts’. But it states that their system produces knowledge that’s just as shiny as that of science. Would that convince you of anything?
As I say, you are not engaging the arguments but instead keep knocking the conclusion (‘well-being is the only thing we can value’) as if it was free-floating. It isn’t. Mill says the kind of compelling proof you are looking for does not and cannot exist. Harris says that consciousness is a prerequisite for morality, what we should do then is to contribute to positive changes in states of consciousness, and if that’s not what ‘well-being’ means, then it is, in George Carlin’s spookily apropos words, a meaningless fucking term. Now those are actual arguments they use—and if by ‘self-contained’ you mean ‘follow deductively’, then yes, that’s kind of the point. Bronowski speaks for all three of them when he says that the value is logically built into the empirical reality of the process.
Sean, exactly. I have a bit in my review (TPM 53, out soon) that refers to that issue, which is in fact major. (I only refer to it, because it’s a short review. Word limit.)
I too would much rather read Simon Blackburn on the subject, or several other philosophers, or other philosophers I don’t know about yet.
@Peter Beattie
One way that we can be sure that science works is that it’s built on fairly universal senses and principles of reasoning. Even radical skepticism involves the suspension of trust in perceptions we all have and, by experience and by default, think to be correct. It’s difficult to even coherently think about the possibility that basic principles of deduction or induction don’t work. This is a big part of why these are so much more robust than religious epistemologies, which really have nothing universal to refer to.
It seems to me that, if Harris wants to ground ethics in the same way, he has to be working on the assumption that promotion of well-being is what people really mean, deep down, by morality, or that it is somehow by default what we mean by morality. If this turned out to be false, and 30% of the population based their morality (deep down) on some different and potentially conflicting principle, or, as seems more likely to me, if our everyday view of morality is really a conflation of several different and potentially conflicting reasoning processes, on what universal grounds do we say that what people have called “morality” or “good and evil” up until now really is just an imprecise way of getting at this notion of well-being?
Peter Beattie,
The Catholic Epistemology you cite is unwarranted because it fails to provide the best explanation for our incessant sensory experience of a regularly behaving external world. This abductive way of reasoning makes radical skepticism moot.
The explanation Harris offers to refute the Taliban is just a re-affirmation of an axiom that has been challenged.
You can say what well-being is, be my guest. But if it’s synonymous with goodness, then the Taliban have their own version, (and it’s not meaningless, because they do all the things we do, approve, disapprove, believe something is deserving of praise, blame, certain things are intrinsically bad, good, etc). If it’s not synonymous with goodness or rightness, then it doesn’t do the work of refuting the Taliban. It’s really not difficult.
Incidentally I dealt with the difference between moral and radical skepticism right off, to no avail. I did so because I already knew that was the direction a defender of Harris’ thesis would want to go. But anyway, run-of-the-mill scientific realism is actually a more modest position than moral realism, so they’re not in the same boat in terms of refuting their respective skeptics.
Now, if well-being, as we understand it, is supposed to be something the Taliban are persuaded to value, then there’s been no argument that does that work through anything other than foot-stompingly repeating our axioms.
If well-being is just supposed to mean “the morally right state of affairs” then you’ve got to be able to say more than my contention makes it a “meaningless fucking term.” You have to be able to say that when I say (hypothetically) that the Taliban has the superior moral system, that I’m expressing an *immoral* view, not a meaningless one. And you have to be able to do it in a non-question begging way.
True enough we couldn’t defeat radical skepticism if we took it as seriously when dealing with an external world, but we have actual evidence to appeal to in that case: our collective experience. If there were whole cultures of people that experienced the world in some way that contradicted our scientific understandings, then the radical skeptic would get a day in court. Until then, like I said before, radical skepticism about an external world and its regular behavior is just not that interesting.
To be a moral realist is to commit to something above and beyond the relatively modest proposition that there is an external world that behaves in such a way as to allow the systematic study of it. Do you doubt this? Ask a radical skeptic to do something that violates the laws of physics, like, say walk off of a tall building. The skeptic will either reveal a lack of true belief in skepticism, or splat her brains all over the sidewalk. I don’t know about about you, but the splattered brains will serve to me as inductive evidence to the abductive belief in an external world.
BTW Peter Beattie,
I hate to do this again, but I can’t trust that you won’t go off the path with my response about Catholic Epistemology. See, either the Catholic Epistemology is in real, scientific conflict with the Enlightenment world-view or the two are only in meta-physical conflict (it could be both, but that’s not as relevant here).
We already know that reductionist-naturalists have a metaphysical dispute with literal-believing Christians.
So if the disagreement is roughly the way you expressed it, (that the Catholic Epistemology disagrees with our “facts”) then I say those who adhere to this Catholic Epistemology have a special burden to explain how and where science went of the path. My money is on science in that dispute. If they believe in every earthly fact Richard Dawkins does, but merely offer a different metaphysical interpretation of it, then it’s hard to say it fits your example (just in case anyone is tempted to think this way, not saying you are).
Anyway, moral skepticism does not rely on radical skepticism. As a matter of fact, the literature of moral skepticism was mostly written by people who have strong confidence in science. That doesn’t make them right, but I think it might serve as one clue that perhaps the moral skeptics that decided to pass on radical skepticism about the physical world knew what they were doing, and were not arbitrarily cherry-picking their skepticism.
Sean (#33) – You say above that you haven’t read TML, and it shows in your post, as you bring up points that Harris explicitly deals with. As to the three things you mention: a) Harris argues that we can be pretty sure about the universal roots of morality also, via evolution; b) he goes even further and says that is the only thing we can mean when we talk about morality; and c) he offers the same example of radically divergent empirical findings on what people understand as morality as a potential refutation of his thesis (p. 189), among others.
J. Jeffers (#34-5) – “The explanation Harris offers to refute the Taliban is just a re-affirmation of an axiom that has been challenged.”
He offers arguments, which are not just a re-affirmation, and those arguments would have to be challenged. I don’t have a horse in this race, as I said in the article; Harris can defend himself. I am here for the discussion, because I happen to think that that is more important than any particular outcome. So, instead of playing intellectual whack-a-mole, I’ll just wait until you adress the arguments that directly bear on your stated complaint—which I take to be: ‘grounding morality in “well-being” cannot by itself convince a moral relativist’. If somebody else can help put this train back on the track, even better.
Peter Beattie,
You have made accusations that I have accused Harris of a formal fallacy or at least a non-sequitur and that I miss the (alleged) fact that the kind of skepticism that Harris deals with is a radical kind. You said that I miss the (alleged) fact that I am treating Catholic Epistemologies differently than Taliban morality. You have asserted that if well-being is not what you say it is, then it is a “meaningless fucking term.” You have said that one can merely point out that asking for a challenged premise to be granted is inappropriate, but is something that must be argued. I have responded to these accusations faithfully but you haven’t responded in kind. So for you to say you fear that engaging me further will involve you in intellectual whack-a-mole is ironic.
Now, anyone can clearly read what I said originally, to respond to other commenters’ incredulity that people were reading Sam Harris so uncharitably. I focused, somewhat, on his popular presentation. You jumped in. From there you began defending Sam Harris. For you to say now that you’re not here to defend Sam Harris is putting a pre-mature end to a conversation you freely involved yourself in and helped advance to the point it’s at now.
So, I’ll continue; I can’t control whether you do.
You’ve offered no argument in favor of the proposition that a member of the Taliban *should* be convinced by Harris’ view of well-being. I guess all you have to say is “go read the book.” You could have said that from the beginning, rather than throwing around a few easily refutable half-defenses and then dropping it.
Incidentally, I’ve read it. I’ve got it right here. You pointed out a page you thought I should familiarize myself with early on, and I responded with a quote from said page within minutes. So you could just, for the readers, rather than requiring me to do a book report in order to argue the topic, tell me which other pages you would like to argue about. Oh yeah, you’re not here to defend Sam Harris. You said that in your post; forgive me for forgetting…
Err, I shouldn’t rattle some things off so quickly. No need to change the meaning, just the presentation. So to be clear, Peter Beattie,
You have accused me of misapprehending Harris’ point when I brought up my point about obviousness. I showed how you were imposing that interpretation on my words.
You have stated implicitly that when a premise has been challenged, yet an appeal is made for it to merely be granted, that it’s not enough to merely point out that this is inappropriate, but that the idea that it’s inappropriate must be hard earned in argument. I’m still a bit shocked by that one.
Anyway, that was from the first paragraph on my last post, but it’s more clear here.
I suppose I will have to pick up the book now. But I do want to say something briefly here.
As to the three things you mention: a) Harris argues that we can be pretty sure about the universal roots of morality also, via evolution; b) he goes even further and says that is the only thing we can mean when we talk about morality; and c) he offers the same example of radically divergent empirical findings on what people understand as morality as a potential refutation of his thesis (p. 189), among others.
This is not very reassuring. I actually mostly am already on board with a) (with some caveats; I think that some variability is obvious, in the extreme case sociopathy, which I think may plausibly be an evolutionarily selected-for minority strategy). Then you say he “says” b) and “offers” c). my interest is not in whether or not he is aware of such potential weaknesses (I know already that he is), but whether or not he has considered them seriously, and, taking them seriously, has a way to overcome them.
If he does so, it will certainly not be by waving his hands at the alternatives and calling them as absurd as Catholic epistemology.
Sean, forgive me, but I wanted to say something else, and you’ve stated that you haven’t read the book, so now Peter Beattie is citing page numbers to you. I hope I’m not stepping on toes by jumping in.
On there being universal roots to our morality:
As Sean pointed out, 30% of the population could base their morality on something different from the rest of us, or people could be committed to an incoherent set of moral principles. What I would to stress is that Sean could be right about that, and we could have universal moral roots. So these roots make no difference to this argument. Radical moral disagreement is apparent, as is the difference between moral and radical skepticism. I too believe we have universal moral roots, and yet, the issue remains. The issue is, partly, that people keep disagreeing with us on what we consider to be obvious moral principles. It’s rare to find someone that truly doesn’t believe in the external world. Again, try to test someone. A so-called radical skeptic will splat their brains on the pavement, and this will serve as pretty good evidence of the reality of the external world and its behavior. Probably what would happen, instead, is that it would be revealed that their skepticism wasn’t real, but merely academic. In the case of the Taliban, we can see an actual deep seeded disagreement, and it should cause reasonable people to doubt that there are facts of the matter that can adjudicate that disagreement. The reason this disagreement is so philosophically interesting is because we lack the kind of evidence that would justify a non question begging claim that the Taliban are morally wrong, while the test of walking off buildings would be a good test of the radical skeptic (the issue of radial skepticism isn’t interesting).
On this being the only way we can talk about morality:
Either the Taliban talk about morality in roughly the same ways and yet we haven’t figured out a non-question begging way of refuting their moral outlook, or they talk in ways that we find to be gibberish, meaning we can’t refute them.
On page 189 and the ways of falsification:
Harris points out that if there’s “… no connection between feeling good and and being good – and therefore no connection between moral behavior (as generally conceived) and subjective well-being,” then “… rapists, liars, and thieves would experience the same depth of happiness as the saints.” He says this is far-fetched, but hypothetically possible. In the case that evil turned out to be, onto page 190, “… as reliable a path to happiness as goodness is, my argument about the moral landscape would still stand, as would the likely neuroscience for investigating it. It would no longer be an especially ‘moral’ landscape; rather it would be a continuum of well-being, upon which saints and sinners would occupy equivalent peaks.”
Harris continues, “Worries of this kind seems to ignore some very obvious facts about human beings: we have all evolved from common ancestors and are, therefore, far more similar than we are different; brains and primary human emotions clearly transcend culture, and they are unquestionably influenced by states of the world (as anyone who has ever stubbed his toe can attest). No one, to my knowledge, believes that there is so much variance in the requisites of human well-being as to make the above concerns seem plausible.”
Now, I believe primary human emotions transcend culture as well, if that means human emotions are not nearly as malleable as many people on the relativistic side of anthropology believe. But here’s the thing: So what?
The members of the Taliban apparently get something they deem good out of their actions. The way they talk about morality is efficient enough to carry out their plans and morally condemn and praise. They aren’t claiming that the subjective feeling that we have label “happiness” is the highest good. They’ve avoided direct conflict in this sense, but they aren’t simply talking gibberish. They condemn our pursuit of well-being, and we condemn their pursuit of… whatever the hell it is. Now, if you’re just going to refer back to Harris’ account of well-being (that he says is the only way we can talk about morality) then you have actually simply re-affirmed the axioms.
And see, all we could show if someone claimed goodness has nothing to do with any subjective state whatever is that they were sapping the meaning of the concept of goodness. But this doesn’t give us the epistemic tools to say what an immoral view is, which is what we would want to be able to do when someone said it’s morally permissible to torture babies for fun.
Plus, the Taliban don’t say goodness has nothing to do with subjective states at all. They just value certain people’s subjective states a lot less, and don’t value the particularly cheery or introspectively actualized versions of happiness we value. But certainly they get *some* sort of pleasure from what they do (and please, let’s not rank pleasures without noticing that such an activity is a process of evaluation in the first place).
Continued on page 190 and onto 191, Harris, after bemoaning the view of most scientists on the matter, writes,
“Many people also believe that nothing much depends on whether we find a universal foundation for morality. It seems to me, however, that in order to fulfill our deepest interests in this life, both personally and collectively, we must first admit that some interests are more defensible than others. Indeed, some interests are so compelling that they need no defense at all.”
Let me stress a few words. Harris writes, “… we must first admit…” and “… some interests are so compelling that they need no defense at all.”
Now, I tried to focus on his popular presentation early on, but you insisted on ignoring that and re-focusing my energies on Harris’ book. So now that I’ve done that, I have to say that we can’t just assume that Harris’ arguments are not actually just re-affirmations of his axioms just because they sound or read like something above and beyond his original premise. Harris’ arguments, if they’re question begging, (which I recognize you’re not convinced of) are just re-affirmations. And if the fundamental problem with his argument are in his beliefs about axioms, then his additional arguments aren’t important. So you see Harris has to avoid question-begging, come up with a non-tendentious definition of morality, and have a cogent view on the nature of moral axioms.
Before I sign off, do you really doubt that grounding morality in what we label “well-being” has no persuasive force to a moral relativist? A huge problem moral relativism presents is that groups use differing standards for what counts as good. We can’t just define our conception of well-being as “good” by fiat and win the argument against the Taliban, because then all we have the tools to do is tell them they don’t know how to use their moral words correctly, and we want to say more than that when they make horrible moral claims.
Just so you know ^this^ this is an argument. Sam Harris does want to say the Taliban is morally wrong, and he wants to do it by offering an account of well-being already familiar to us. I have given reasons why this won’t work, at least not without parasitically relying on the obvious leaning we already have toward *admitting* that the proposition that it’s morally wrong throw battery acid in a little girl’s face needs *no defense at all*. Now, please notice I haven’t said Harris is overly relying on the argument form “this is obvious to me, therefore it’s true.”
Ophelia and Sean,
I’m delighted to see that I’m not the only one who finds the unassuming but devastating (to Harris’s impudent overreaching) wisdom of Simon Blackburn most welcome in this debate (not forgetting Blackford et al.) I must also admit that since this whole thing started, I’ve realized, even more than before the virtue of true skepticism when presented with easy, dismissive answers. Thank God for the philosophical giants out there who have the patience, will and ability to dissect out the flaws in the grandiloquent arguments of today’s great rhetoricians. It saddens me when I see Richard Dawkins, of whom I’m very fond, making disparaging comments about philosophers (even if praising Daniel Dennett in the process). It really does the cause of truth seeking no good intimating to the herd of gnus that they shouldn’t be reading more philosophy.
Well, my eyes glaze over whenever I see a complaint about “scientism”. But surely Massimo is right this time, at least on the main point. The Moral Landscape conspicuously fails to derive any “oughts” from “is’s” in the sense that philosophers mean. In order to get started, Sam has to presume a great big “ought” which relates to how we ought to maximise well-being in some sense of the latter.
I suppose you could concede that, but then say his overall point stands because it’s just obviously true that we ought to maximise well-being in the requisite sense. But it’s not obvious at all. It’s a substantive, highly controversial claim. You really can’t say that failing to agree with it is analogous to adopting some sort of radical epistemological scepticism (complete with deceiving demons, brains in vats, the radical unreliability of our senses, and the like). That’s just not so. You might as well say that refusing to agree with the claim that there is a God is analogous to radical epistemological scepticism.
Re: Blackburn – Is everyone just talking about his talk on The Great Debate, or did he also actually write something on TML (like a critique or a review)?
It seems to me that Harris is doing something more than appealing to obviousness, although I admit he’s not doing it as consistently, as explicitly, or as well as I’d like.
Consider his discussion (contra Atran) of martyrdom around p 155 of TML, and several similar passages elsewhere in the book.
He frequently criticizes what he acknowledges is the “admittedly low-hanging fruit” (p. 74) of conservative Islam, and there’s a reason for using that running example.
Harris is making it clear that he thinks that the supposedly fundamentally different values of the Taliban and their ilk are not so fundamentally different after all, for two reasons:
1) they’re mostly based on different beliefs, which are true or false, and
2) even wildly religious people do substantially justify their authoritarian moral regimes in terms of well-being of conscious entities (e.g., p. 63-63)
I think he’s at least mostly right about that.
I don’t think that Harris does a good job of addressing different kinds of basic “moral” intuitions, such as the possibility of irreducible preferences for submission to authority and purity, as opposed to seeing those as merely instrumental in advancing well-being.
I do think he’s right that such things are often at least partly reducible to concerns about somebody’s well-being, and justified in those terms. For example, obedience and reverence for God are often justified in terms of either God’s well being, or in terms of the believer’s, or in terms of everyone’s. If God doesn’t get his due, he won’t be happy, and if the believer doesn’t have a proper attitude toward God, he’ll be dysfunctional and suffer for it, and maybe get severely punished to boot, and everyone else may suffer too—society won’t function properly without God’s guidance, causing widespread suffering, and maybe an angry God will visit his wrath on us in this life, and burn more sinners forever in the next as well.
Even very conservative, authoritarian religion is permeated with concerns for consequences. It is generally assumed that doing the right thing is beneficial somehow—if only in that it builds character, but often in that it prevents personal and social malfunctions with disastrous consequences.
Likewise, consider purity. There may be an irreducible impulse toward purity concerns that is partly genetically-based and variable between people, based in instincts related to contagion and so on. The icky and squicky factors may not reduce, at a basic psychological level, to an actual concern about consequences—we just don’t like icky squicky things, and find it all too easy to get moralistic about them.
Even so, as with authoritarianism, the privileged place of purity issues is clearly largely due to beliefs about efficacy and justification—that menstruation or gay sex or foreign eating habits really are scary or disgusting in a way that goes far beyond a simple, purely subjective “I don’t like that.”
It is generally assumed that God or Karma or something is benevolent or wise or something, and likes obedience and purity.
If these things were just irreducible or unchallengeable values, independent of concerns about well-being, there wouldn’t be such elaborate myths and metaphysics to justify them. That wouldn’t be necessary.
It is necessary—religion generally wraps itself up in imagery closely related to health and well being:
God is the wise father, and we must be obedient to have a happy family. Even if he’s not entirely benevolent, we must be obedient anyhow—because if God ain’t happy, ain’t nobody happy.
Sin is like a contagion or dangerous infectious substance that get on you, and you can get it on others. It can be washed off, but only at some expense—there’s an accounting, and sins must be paid for, with sober atonement or at least a token sacrifice, and often at considerable cost. If the price is not paid, the bill will come due, and there will be Hell to pay, for somebody, in this life or the next. (Or maybe you’ll just make the baby Jesus cry, and you wouldn’t want to impair the well-being of sweet baby Jesus, would you?)
It seems me pretty obvious that Harris is largely right, and that he’s spelled out why it should be obvious in a bit more detail than some of his critics give him credit for. It seems to be a cultural universal that various allegedly different values are justified in terms of consequentialism about well-being at some level, in some form—and usually a whole variety of forms, at different levels, because moral values are always at least partly grounded in concern for well-being. (Maybe not synchronically, i.e., in the moment, but diachronically—the arguments that establish the seeming validity of the values largely come down to consequences, when push comes to shove. In the moment, they may be unquestioned and free-floating, but there are always background assumptions that are justified in terms of well-being, when the issues are brought out into the open.)
Harris doesn’t have to be entirely right for his basic argument to work, and for moral schemes to substantially converge in light of actual facts and proper reason.
It may be, for example, that for many people, the purity and obedience issues are central, and they identify morality with following specific rules or something, and the issues of well-being are not even secondary.
Still, issues of belief are critical. Even if you think that morality consists simply of following the rules of Proper Authority, and staying pure, etc., irrespective of consequences, you still generally assume that there really is a Proper Authority whose rules are the right ones to follow, and that there really are impurities that should be avoided.
If you find out, for example, that there’s no God, or that God just doesn’t care about anal sex, and that your being squicked by gay sex is only that—your being squicked, as you are by eating eggplant—that presumably changes things. Maybe you’ll think about it more, and get over being squicked, or maybe you’ll decide to personally refrain from anal sex, but you’re way less likely to think that you morally should interfere with other people’s lives to stop them from having anal sex.
An irreducible drive to obey proper authority might never go away, for some people, but if they realize there is no Proper Authority to obey, that may render it impotent in their moral reasoning.
Similarly, an irreducible drive to maintain spiritual purity may be rendered morally impotent by the realization that there’s no such thing as souls that can actually get dirty or need purifying in the sense that that impulse requires.
I think that gives us reason to be optimistic that moral schemes will tend to converge usefully in light of facts and reason. We may indeed start from rather different places in terms of our irreducible moral impulses, but still converge a whole lot because some of those moral impulses generally come out in the wash, and others generally don’t.
—
One point Harris fails to sharpen up is what happens if we find people who really, really don’t care about consequences for well-being—not about consequences of particular acts, and not even about conformity to rules that typically have good consequences.
IMHO, we should regard those people as a species of sociopath—people whose moral sense is missing something very, very basic. That seems pretty clearly to be Harris’s view as well, but he needs to spell it out and justify it better, so his critics like Massimo Pigliucci can’t miss what (IMHO) he’s really saying.
The basic idea there is that if your moral impulses only work to motivate you when combined with false beliefs—e.g., that there’s a Divine Moral Authority and a Strict Set of Rules—something is seriously wrong. You’re missing something that is nearly universal in the basic individual human moral mindset, and relied on by culturally universal mechanisms in deriving and maintaining specific moral schemes.
As I read him, Harris uses conservative Islamists and jihadists as a running example for several good reasons, and is a little overconfident that his critics won’t manage to miss certain points.
In particular, one of his points is that such people are generally not sociopaths in the above sense, with no concern for consequences and well-being. They don’t simply obey authority, maintain purity, etc. for their own sake.
Their fundamental moral values are not incommensurable with ours. They are pretty similar, but their derivative values—about religious orthodoxy, chastity, modesty, sexism, homophobia and martyrdom—are different primarily because they have different beliefs. Profoundly mistaken beliefs.
Pigliucci seems to think that Harris uses these people as a running example just because he’s a foaming-at-the-mouth anti-religionist and anti-Islamist, and likes to pick on easy targets.
I don’t think that’s fair.
Certainly, there’s a sense in which he picks on conservative Islam because it’s an easy target. More to the point, though, it’s an easy target because it’s a great example of exactly what he’s talking about, which applies, ceteris paribus, to other belief systems and moral schemes. It’s a great place to start.
Conservative Islam is a great example because it’s clearly important and it’s clearly very different, and because plenty of people like Atran and Haidt actually use it as an example of cross-cultural moral incommensurability, i.e. the supposed independence of values and facts.
If Harris can show that even such a seemingly different moral scheme works according to the principles he lays out, it at least establishes that he’s right and his critics are wrong about an obviously important and interesting case—one of their major examples turns out to support his case on closer inspection. It also gives him room to make more specific points about the nature of morality and the interactions of beliefs and morals, with concrete examples.
I think he actually does a fairly good job of that, although he doesn’t make the structure of his argument clear enough—e.g., he doesn’t spell out the part about the impotence of certain differing fundamental moral impulses without certain mistaken beliefs for them to hinge on, so that they don’t in fact prevent moral convergence. (As I did above.) My impression is that he just expects people see the examples and “get” that “obvious” point.
That may not impress Massimo much, or Russell (to a lesser extent), because they already largely agree—they’re atheists, and Massimo’s a moral realist. (Russell’s not a moral realist, but agrees on many of the concrete issues and on the stupidity of simplistic moral relativism, even if he disagrees on the extent of likely moral convergence in light of facts, and whether what we do converge to should be termed “objective” morality.)
It does impress me somewhat—I definitely see the glass as half full, and a little more—though I’m disappointed with this book coming from Harris. He can write more clearly than this, and usually does.
As mass-market books on such things go, it’s really pretty good.
Tea, I’m also thinking of Blackburn’s for-a-general-audience book on ethics and metaethics from nearly a decade ago, Being Good.
Paul W,
I appreciate the lengths you went to to express yourself. Now I don’t feel like my posts stick out so much. I just want to call attention to this, though:
These issues of belief are important, but they’re not all based on the same view of flourishing that we tend to hold in the West. Sure, it has *some* connection to well-being, but Harris needs there to be more than *some* connection to well-being in order for his to say the Taliban is wrong even on their own terms. Some people are condemned to hell in their scheme for reasons we find unjust. Now, I think that a morally mature person should object to that on moral grounds, even if they haven’t worked out their world-view to the point of being a secular liberal.
But if they need to find out that the vengeful God they worship isn’t really there before they stop killing women for being raped, then this seems like more than an intellectual mistake, but a kind of moral cowardice as well. If the whole dispute gets transferred to the realm of mistaken belief, then I guess once they adopt our world-view we should just say “Oh ok, welcome to the party!” I’m saying this is what you’re suggesting, just that we should consider what we think of people that commit horrible acts, even if they do so (allegedly) because of mistaken beliefs.
If I believe that everyone in the world should suffer except me, on account of the K-9 god that I read about, I still have a substantive moral disagreement with everyone else. But since I have taken the well-being of conscious creatures into account (namely, my well-being) then I’m A-OK? We want to say more than that I’m misinformed.
Sam Harris has not only said that moral disagreement would become a much smaller problem if we all adopted a secular liberal belief system, that much is obvious. He’s said that science can solve moral disagreement. His argument , therefore, is not only with the Taliban and their ilk, but with moral skeptics as well.
Oh and one more thing: On people who really, really don’t care about well being, branding them sociopaths may be helpful to our day to day purposes, but it doesn’t solve any arguments. What legitimate, non question begging critique can we offer of them that will be meta-ethically relevant? Calling them sociopaths is just dismissive, in this context at least.
Ophelia:
I see. I was hoping he wrote a review or something.
So far, I like this review best: http://www.springerlink.com/content/45u072w223572503/
(Ha! I just realized that the authour, Whitley Kaufman, holds a Ph.D. in philosophy from Georgetown! No wonder I like him ;)
J. Jeffers:
My main function here seems to be to shift the Overton Window of comment lengths.
Paul W,
To try to be a bit more eloquent than I was in my first post to you:
Not only do we have to watch out for the people that really really don’t care about well-being in any sense, but we have to watch out for people that care about well-being in different senses. In other words, we’re either using the term “well-being” in a very strict sense, or we’re using it in such a broad way as to include and and all forms of how any culture would think of the best state of moral affairs. If we’re using it in a strict sense, then we can have a framework for roughly like-minded people to solve their instrumental disagreements about how to organize society. This is nice, but it makes no contribution to any meta-ethical debate. On the other hand, if we’re using the term “well-being” so broadly that we include all the possible ways individuals and cultures think of the best states of affairs, then we’re just saying “goodness” and people have radically different conceptions of that.
Some people think being authentic is the most important thing and that we should tell people they’re newborns are ugly if that’s what we think, while most of us don’t mind a little fib in situations like this. Some people think the poor should just fend for themselves, others think an unequal society is horrible on its face. Some people think we have obligations to others, some don’t.
Was Hitler only responsible for mistaken beliefs about the Jews? Similar to when I miss a question on an exam? If so, then there is no such thing as pure moral disagreement. That strikes me a glib dismissal. Not saying you’re making that dismissal, just trying to say that it may be necessary if the larger point Harris wants to make goes through. And Harris needs for *all* moral disagreement to fall under this regime, not just most of it, or some of it.
It can’t be that Marxists, Randians, The Taliban, Secular liberals, nihilists, and catholics are driven by moral disagreement in the first place, if Harris is correct. Rather, Harris needs to be able to show that when you inform nihilists how certain lifestyles make people feel, and how that feeling correlates to certain brain states, for nihilists to have to abandon their nihilism. They have to declare, “Ooooh, I see. We’ve been wrong all along.” But their under no epistemological obligation to do so, (the way a creationist is under intellectual obligation to accept evolution) since it’s likely that their nihilism wasn’t based on denying that certain lifestyles create certain subjective states and that those states effect and are effected by brain states.
Oh and
Ha! That make two of us, I guess.
And, most importantly, hopefully Grammar Girl isn’t reading this thread, or I’ll never get a date with her.
Paul – ha! V droll.
Tea – Nagel did a review in The New Republic but I haven’t read it; it’s behind the pay wall, dagnabbit.
Agh, I know.
I don’t know if you can access Kaufman’s article I posted above, but let me know if you can’t, I can send you an electronic copy. It’s good stuff, but there’s no way anyone should pay $34 for it :)
J. Jeffers:
Well, yes, it’s both, but whatcha gonna do about it? Like Harris, I don’t believe in libertarian free will, and I don’t expect people to be terribly moral if their beliefs are all screwed up. Their beliefs may make them evil, but that’s exactly the point—evil is often largely a matter of false beliefs and their downstream effects. (It’s not exclusively that, though, and Harris clearly acknowledges that.)
I agree with Harris that people are prone to moral illusions—things seeming right when they’re actually wrong—and that such illusions can often be diagnosed and cured with a proper application of facts and rationality. Maybe not in some cases, where people are too far gone, but in many cases, and in many more cases, it’s good to apply facts and rationality prophylactically so that people don’t get too far gone.
Harris’s discussion of this sort of thing is a bit weak in basically the way I was talking about above—people may really have innate drives toward vengeance, etc., which specific moral schemes play into, and those drives may not reduce to concerns about justice that promotes well-being.
However, it’s clear cross-culturally that such concerns are very frequently rationalized in terms of promoting general well-being, even in honor cultures. Everybody recognizes that the fear of vengeance can deter wrongdoers, and that a lust for vengeance can help enforce moral norms that are beneficial.
If you look at nomads and territorial hunter-gatherers, it’s clear that they don’t just savagely punish camel thieves and poachers because vengeance feels good. They explicitly think it’s the right thing to do because it preserves the social order: if you let people steal, it encourages them and their tribe to come back and steal more, and all sorts of mayhem results. Likewise, within the tribe, you punish food hoarders who don’t share stuff people are supposed to share, because it’s bad for everybody when such selfishness is condoned and gets out of hand. Retribution is an obligation, even if you don’t feel like punishing and would rather be forgiving, because you’re letting the group down if you don’t enforce moral norms.
I agree with Harris that this is not nearly so much a matter of peculiar, Western ideas of “well-being” as many people make it out. People around the world, in all cultures, are concerned with health and illness, plenty and famine, power and powerlessness, and all that. All of those things are typically assumed to be correlated, and not strictly prioritized.
I also agree with Harris that people don’t have to start with the same particular priorities about what counts as well-being to converge to more similar ones, and to pretty similar moral positions in “reflective equilibrium,”—i.e., after enough rational thought in light of all the relevant facts.
So, for example, a particular Bedouin might unthinkingly assume that camel thievery is intrinsically an enormous matter of honor, and obviously the sort of thing you’re not just allowed but obligated to punish with vengeance unto death, and think anybody who ever let a camel thief off with less harsh punishment was dishonorable and immoral.
I assume that most such honor-ridden Bedouin individuals could eventually come to understand that camel thievery is not necessarily and intrinsically that big a deal, and that vengeance is not necessarily that big an moral obligation, e.g., after living in a city with police for a while.
And even if an individual could never get past that, and always perceived camel thievery in exactly that way, that’d just be a failure of rationality. Presumably their kids, exposed to different ideas at formative stages, could be different, for good reasons—e.g., having more accurate ideas about the basic nature of justice, and the values of different forms of justice in terms of their effects on general well-being.
The fact that some people or whole cultures may get permanently stuck in errors doesn’t mean that they’re not errors that can be diagnosed by people who aren’t stuck in them. It sure does complicate the argument, though, and I don’t pretend to have addressed it well, or think Harris really has either. I think that Harris has mostly provided some decent analogies, but hasn’t really cashed them out explicitly enough.
I do think that Harris is weak on that point, but if he wasn’t, it’d be a much longer book, which some of us would like but a whole lot of people wouldn’t read. (If I’d written it, it’d be two or three times as long, and nobody’d read it.)
Russell (#43) – As I said in #31, the conclusion that ‘well-being’ is the only thing we can value is not a free-floating thing like the simple assertion that there is a ‘god’. What I am interested in is why the arguments of Mill, Bronowski, and Harris (especially those on p. 37) are not enough to stop me withholding provisional assent, in Gould’s apt phrase.
Ophelia (#32) – What for example has Blackburn written that would bear on this particular point? The only thing I can relate to the TML debate at the moment is his talk at The Great Debate—which, and I’m being charitable, was disappointingly superficial. Let me elaborate:
The Fool’s Paradise argument rests on a necessarily static set of experiences as well as the specific individual as the ultimate measure of what is achievable; both elements have been explicitly contradicted by utilitarians, and not even addressing their arguments is not what I would have expected from a philosopher. A related point is the equating of satisfied (material) desires with ‘flourishing’, which I think is disingenous. A similar straw man is the idea that Harris thinks science by itself can answer the question, “Was Buddha right about ‘flourishing’?” Of course, Harris thinks no such thing; in fact, he says (p. 37 again) that such a “demand for radical justification” cannot be met by any discipline. Also, the characterisation of Singer’s ideas as culminating in the demand that you become a “servant of the world, giving away all your money to other people” is hair-raisingly and utterly false. Finally, his insights that you “have to work out for yourself what you care about in your life” and that “prioritizing … is a hard decision all of us have to make” do not answer anything, but amount to nothing more than a painfully obvious rephrasing of the question.
Yes – but not necessarily other people’s as opposed to their own, or that of those people in the next village as opposed to that of the people in their own village, or the next level up, and then the next, and so on.
The difficulty is not convincing people to value their own well-being, it’s convincing them to value that of other people enough to do various things that might lessen their own.
Harris should have put that right out front from the beginning (given what he wanted to do), and he didn’t.
J. Jeffers:
Right. I think, and I think I mostly agree with Harris on this.
For example, Marxism and Libertarianism are typically justified by assertions that certain political schemes work better than others to improve the general well being. There are empirical claims about human nature, economics, and so on, that are supposed to justify them.
If the Libertarians are right, the Marxists are wrong, and vice versa.
There may be some Marxists and some Libertarians for whom those facts don’t really matter—and who would be committed to the Marxist ideas of equality and dictatorship of the proletariat, or the radical Libertarian idea of absolutely propertarian “freedom”—even if they knew they’d been quite mistaken about human nature and workable economic and political systems. They might prefer a Marxist or Libertarian dystopia, with almost everyone systematically poor and miserable, to any alternative such as a workable democratic mixed economy.
I’m pretty sure there are very, very few of those people, and that even the minority of ideologues who talk that way when pressed would mostly change their minds, eventually, if they really knew they’d been wrong and would have to live with the enormous negative consequences of their errors.
It’s not just a coincidence that there aren’t a lot of classic Marxist-Leninists left. Even ideologues are not mostly impervious to very clear evidence, e.g., that communist dictatorships have some evident failure modes to worry about. It’s not easy to create a Worker’s Paradise that’s actually paradaisical by anybody’s standards, and to a first approximation, everybody knows that now and takes the difficulties fairly seriously. The remaining differences of opinion about Marxism more generally are largely differences of opinion about how likely it is to advance well-being, and how likely various failure modes are, not about irreducible moral values.
That may not be obvious, when you think about right-wing rhetoric about Obama the Communist Muslim, but if you look more closely, I do think it’s true. It’s assumed that liberalism is socialism and ultimately gets you something resembling a dictatorial takeover, where the intrusive government will do various things that would make anyone miserable, not just people who’d prefer a more laissez-faire style of government. The message is that it doesn’t work, and will hurt in ways everybody could recognize, even if there’s also seemingly free-floating crap about, e.g., how progressive taxes “aren’t fair”—allegedly unfair taxes are argued to undermine the economy, and make everybody suffer in the long run, as well as hurting individuals they’re “unfair” to.
If people’s fundamental values were really just different and incommensurable, political and religious rhetoric wouldn’t work the way it does. It wouldn’t be necessary to have so many appeals to the alleged consequences of taking different ideas seriously and acting on them.
The superficial variety of arguments and moral positions obscures the structural commonalities—everything is frequently justified in terms of its supposed effects, and mostly in terms of effects that everybody can at least approximately evaluate—you don’t have to be a Libertarian to understand that a failed, dystopian Marxist dictatorship is dystopian.
Likewise, if we ever had a thoroughly Libertarian system and it failed as miserably as leftists think it would, you wouldn’t need to be a leftist to recognize its dystopian aspect, either. Libertarian arguments don’t generally say “that’s not a dystopia, it’s Utopia!” They say “that’s not what would happen!”
Similarly, if you could give conservative Islamists a drug that simply made them disbelieve in the existence of God and Koranic and Hadithic authority, what do you think would happen?
Ignoring the fact that their societies might collapse into chaos in the short term, because many of their power structures are intertwined with Islam, I think that they’d likely liberalize a lot, in a hurry—especially if they could each live someplace like Sweden for a year and really see that societies without much God can be fairly civilized and not collapse into social chaos, and have some time to seriously think that through.
I don’t think Harris has to show that that necessarily happens. He just has to argue that it usually does—that most people’s preference for general well-being doesn’t go away when they realize that preference is not validated by God or some very simplistic, unrealistic idea of “objective” morality.
I’m not sure what you mean here—or even what you mean by “nihilist.”
Are you talking about somebody who’s technically a “nihilist” in a weak sense—like maybe an extreme error theorist who thinks that all moral statements presuppose falsehoods, but still cares about others’ well-being?
Or are you talking about somebody who takes nihilism to heart, and actually feels no moral compunction, because there are no rules?
Are we assuming these people are in reflective equilibrium?
If so, I wouldn’t call the former group nihilists, if they have the kinds of sentiments we normally call moral, and act in ways we normally call moral because of the. I’d think they’re moral people who are hung up on certain terminology about what counts as “morality,” but manifest the real thing.
I also wouldn’t call the latter people nihilists, if they’re reflectively stable about it. If they have no moral sentiments, and act like they have no moral sentiments—e.g., actually being completely unconcerned with the well-being of others—we have a better name for them. They’re sociopaths.
Me:
Ophelia:
Yes. This is one of the biggest weaknesses of the book, and something that would have made it a hundred pages longer if I’d written it; I’d have beaten it to death. :-/
Harris should have at least spent a few pages discussing the idea of the “expanding circle,” a la Peter Singer, and suchlike—the idea that people generally limit whose moral interests they take into account based on beliefs that are typically false. Naked self-interest is usually not okay, beyond a certain point, in any culture, and biases and exploitation must be rationalized, usually with a variety of bullshit moves. (The Other is inferior, in the wrong, dangerous, unable to appreciate the goods we appreciate, etc. ad nauseam.) And of course religion coevolves with social structures to rationalize the status quo. (E.g., Karmic justification of the Hindu caste system, biblical justifications of slavery, sexism, conquest, etc.)
Harris does address the issue to some extent, in some ways, e.g., talking about how people do recognize certain errors in moral reasoning when consider thought experiments, and come to realize that certain things are unfair that they previously regarded as fair. I do wish he’d done a much more general and thorough job, because it’s a terribly important point.
PaulW,
Why? The problem is not whether they would come to understand that camel thievery is not that big a deal and that vengeance is not that big a moral obligation. The problem is, should they? I ask you, why should they?
Whoa trigger! A “failure of rationality?!” Where’d that come from? And “accurate” ideas about the basic nature of “justice?” Good reasons? Those are all the things in question here. We can’t smuggle them in.
What I am claiming is we have to show that the nihilist is under an epistemological obligation. In other words, *should* the nihilist abandon his nihilism? Whether it would actually happen always, never, or sometimes is not important.
As for what I mean by nihilist, take your pick. Harris has advanced an ambitious enough agenda to include nihilists and error theorists. What evidence so we have to show them that they’re wrong?
Paul (@ 59) – exactly. It’s as if he forgot all about that until halfway through the book, and then even when he remembered it, he didn’t give it nearly enough space.
J. Jeffers:
I’m not smuggling ideas in, just importing them. Legitimately, I think.
Want me to show you the papers? Okay, I’m happy to oblige. :-)
Our hypothetical Bedouin—and apologize if I’m being unfair to Bedouins; it’s just a very hypothetical Bedouin—is in error if he doesn’t realize that there’s no irreducible, context-free connection between camel thievery and the death penalty.
The death penalty for camel thievery may in fact be something that you can make an argument for in a nomadic, lawless situation, where (1) a certain degree of vigilantism is justified—there’s no police around—and (2) the cost of losing a camel to a thief can be very large, and (3) the cost of subsidizing camel thieves by allowing them to get away with it is likely even larger.
Whether you buy that argument in that specific case or not, you have to acknowledge that it’s not as good an argument in a context where (1) there’s a reasonably functional state with police to deal with such things, (2) a camel is not likely a major source of somebody’s livelihood, and is just a moderately valuable piece of property, and (3) camel thieves by and large don’t get away with it.
Whether you think it’s reasonable or laudable should kill any camel thief you catch in the former situation or not, it’s clearly less reasonable to do so in the latter situation. In the former situation, it arguably maintains the social order—such ruthless vigilantism is arguably valuable in such a horrible lawless situation. In the latter situation, it more clearly undermines the social order; there are people whose job it is to administer justice, and better reasons to dissuade people from draconian vigilantism.
I think it is true that most people who take draconian vigilantism to be an irreducible context-insensitive obligation of honor and justice are generally not in reflective equilibrium. They haven’t thought about it enough, and enough thought in light of hypothetical situations would reveal that things aren’t so simple, and sometimes it’s better for people not to take matters into their own hands in that way.
Often such poorly-though-out moral beliefs are both internally inconsistent and supported by other clear falsehoods.
For example, suppose it said in the Koran that God himself decreed that the penalty for camel thievery is summary execution, and our hypothetical Bedouin believes in the Koran and Divine Command Theory, and “that’s all there is to it.” That false belief may prevent our Bedouin from ever really examining the concept of justice, and thinking about counterfactuals—it acts as a short-circuit preventing the rational examination and revision of the relevant moral concepts and preferences.
I’d say the Bedouin in question is in error about several things, including the nature of justice and The Good. He needs some disabusing, e.g., being told that Allah doesn’t exist and never said any such thing, and besides, Plato debunked Divine Command Theory pretty well in the Euthyphro 2400 years ago; somebody really needs to catch up on their reading.
Whatever the truth is about the actual nature of Justice, this person clearly hasn’t got a handle on it—wouldn’t you agree?
A nihilist or hardcore error theorist might say something to the effect that there isn’t really any such thing as justice, just a convenient fiction for the rubes. Even if that’s true, the Bedouin in question is still mistaken about justice and camel thievery—at the very least, it’s not quite the simple, straightforward, divinely-mandated thing it might appear to be. That is an error that can be explained and understood.
I agree with Harris that we can make some naturalistic sense of the idea of justice, i.e., as a natural, emergent psychosocial phenomenon, which is basically certain principles of game theory applied to social circumstances, which we are evolved to take seriously. (Unless we’re sociopaths, which may be an evolved alternate strategy that is clearly quite different.)
I also agree with Harris that whether or not you want to call that an “objective” truth about justice, it’s something that most people can recognize and value—the idea that irrespective of what gods want, there are some constraints on behavior, and ways of enforcing them, that are better for society in ways that most of us do value, on reflection. Whether you call that Justice or just what-has-to-pass-for-justice because we don’t have anything better, it’s the kind of understanding and preference that most of us would approximately converge to, given the actual facts and enough thought and discussion.
Harris is making empirical claims about morality here. One is that there’s a general kind of morality and sense of justice that people can recognize, starting from a very few basic evolved-in principles of motivation, via a whole lot of rational reflection in light of actual facts. Another is that this is an identifiable natural kind with a certain kind of etiology—there are game-theoretic and evolutionary reasons why the large majority of people are endowed with the basic abilities required. Morality is a particular natural thing that serves a particular natural function.
That’s where it gets interestingly hairy and I think Harris wimps out rather disappointingly. Morality is arguably not one thing, but several related things, evolved to serve several different functions simuitaneously. It apparently evolved to promote cooperation at certain scales, and competition and exploitation at others. (Harris does allude to that, but fails to draw out the philosophical difficulties and thoroughly address them.) Morality, as a general natural phenomenon, is not always pretty or a good thing—it’s often a self-congratulatory in-group-favoring out-group-screwing way of beating the shit out of various Others—from different families, clans, tribes, races, or nations—and feeling good about doing so.
That’s why the whole Expanding Circle argument is crucial. Harris needs to very explicitly make the claim that there’s a special kind of morality that people tend to rationally converge to, given the relevant facts and enough reflection—a recognition that many of the beliefs that serve to limit the scope of moral consideration are false, and that their falsity matters a lot, such that the natural scope of moral consideration in reflective equilibrium is very broad, as he clearly wants it to be. (E.g., all conscious entities.)
For Harris to make it clearer that he’s proposing a scientific theory of morality, he needs to make the claim more clearly falsifiable—how would we know if it’s wrong? He also needs to make it clear that there are several natural kinds involved, at different levels, and why he privileges one.
In particular, on the general view, outgroup-exploiting morality is natural too. It serves the function of advancing group interests, and by and large benefits the individuals in the group. Why should we not take that as the exemplar of real morality, in scientific terms? After all, that’s how most actual morality works, and that’s why it works that way. it’s clearly the normal case for for the scope of moral consideration to be conveniently limited, and really quite unusual for it not to be. Why should that strange, ideal case be the “right” morality, and in precisely what sense?
That’s where some tricky philosophy comes in—metaethics and IMO some crucial philosophy of language.
There are very subtle issues of how words refer to things, and how we determine what people are really referring to when they use a word like “moral,” about which they have confused and partly inaccurate ideas.
—
It seems obvious to a lot of people that Harris is talking about a specific concept of morality that most people don’t yet share—so it’s ridiculous for him to talk about that being the proper referent of the term “moral.”
That is far from obvious to me, being familiar with some late 20th Century philosophy of language that turns out to be pretty darned commonsensical.
The basic idea there, which I’ve alluded to already by using the term “natural kinds”, is that people often do refer quite successfully to things they don’t really understand very well, but which have their own natural logic, yet to be discovered.O
A couple of classic examples are “water” and “gold.” People referred to water and gold quite successfully for thousands of years without having actual definitions of the terms. Nobody knew what made water water or made gold gold until chemistry advanced to the point where we knew that water is H20, and if it isn’t H2O, it isn’t water. Likewise, we only discovered fairly recently that gold is an element, and specifically the element with atomic number 79. Gold is made of atoms with 79 protons in their nuclei, and anything else just isn’t real gold.
How we decide the referents of terms is trickier in difficult cases, and “morality” is definitely a tricky case. I do think that ultimately the same idea applies.
Morality is something that we’ve likewise observed for thousands of years, and given a name to, and assumed certain crucial things about—e.g., that it’s not supposed to be grounded in error, and that some people do it better than others, and that it has something to do with promoting fairly general well being. If we can cash those assumptions out, we can say that the term “morality” correctly refers to that thing. Some morality isn’t really morality, once we figure morality out fairly clearly—just like some purported examples of gold turn out to be fools gold, not gold, and some transparent, odorless, tasteless liquids might turn out not to be water, and in fact be poisonous.
Identifying “objective” morality is tricky, because most of the examples we have are bad examples in some important sense or other—we know that even if some morality is true, much morality is riddled with various kinds of error.
Still I think that Harris is basically right to say that we know enough about morality—e.g., being able to identify many moral errors—that it makes a certain ideal of morality moderately clear. True morality, if there is such a thing, doesn’t contain those kinds of errors.
That’s not as weird as it might sound. Consider a case where people think they’ve discovered a new substance, say mercury, and guess that there’s a particular substance involved, even if they have no pure samples of it—just various ores with various other stuff in it, like lead and tin and copper and various random minerals. (This is a made-up example; I don’t know how mercury was actually discovered or refined.) They hypothesize that there is such a thing as mercury, which various ores probably have in common, that isn’t lead, or tin, or any of various other “impurities.” They may guess correctly, and refer to things as mercury ores, before ever figuring out how to smelt really pure mercury.
When they do, and come up with refined mercury, it may have very surprising properties, e.g., being a liquid at room temperature. Still, the fact that it wasn’t the kind of thing they expected in some major ways shouldn’t make them think that mercury doesn’t really exist. It should make them think they were right all along about the existence of mercury, and even that it was a metal—and about the possible existence of pure mercury. It just turns out that pure mercury is a liquid at room temperature, contrary to their expectations.
Similarly, the idea that morality turns out to be a rather different thing than most people expect in certain respects doesn’t mean that the word morality doesn’t have a fairly specific real referent, strongly constrained by (a) certain crucial assumptions we’ve always made about morality, and (b) actual facts.
I think George Carlin’s spookily apropos words are right, and are in keeping with modern philosophy of language as well as common sense in two crucial ways:
1) If morality doesn’t critically involve well-being, it’s a meaningless fucking term, and
2) the fact that people often make mistakes about “morality,” polluting morality with a bunch of debris, doesn’t make it a meaningless fucking term.
Whether you buy that or not, I hope it makes it seem less crazy to think of morality as a particular kind of thing that you can have better and worse examples of, such that it’s not crazy to think about “objective” morality in at least a weak sense.
—
That leads to another Peter Singer riff that Harris should have stolen. In a paper I unfortunately don’t remember the name of, Singer talks about how the difference between believing in error theory and believing in objective morality if often irrelevant to the substance of moral argument.
If we agree on the basic characteristics of the kind of morality we’re interested in—e.g., that it’s grounded in fairly general concern for others’ well-being, and that it doesn’t hinge on errors of fact or inference—then it doesn’t typically matter whether you think that counts as “objective” morality, or simply “the kind of morality that we agree to discuss, because we all care about that.”
—
So, for example, somebody like me might think that sociopaths are objectively amoral, and do objectively immoral things. Somebody like Russell might say that’s an error, because he doesn’t accept certain presuppositions about what exactly does or doesn’t count as morality or “objectivity.”
For most purposes, it doesn’t really matter. We agree that sociopaths are fucking dangerous.
Similarly, I may say that our hypothetical Bedouin is objectively mistaken about justice and vigilantism in certain respects, and Russell might not, but we can agree that vigilantism is often dangerous, and should be dissuaded in many circumstances.
Likewise, we’re likely to agree that if a false belief (e.g., about God’s preferences about sex acts) makes people prone to valuing things differently than they otherwise would, there’s some important kind of mistake involved, whether or not you call it “objective” immorality. Any false beliefs that makes non-sociopaths behave like sociopaths is a bad thing in some important sense, whether you call it “objectively bad” or not.
I think it would have been good for Harris to clarify that he’s got at least three different major goals:
(1) To clarify a certain notion of unmistaken morality, and get people to agree that it’s a particularly interesting kind of morality,
(2) to identify that as true or “objective” morality, properly so-called, and
(3) to sketch some reasonably specific ideas that unmistaken morality is likely to converge to, on rational reflection in light of actual facts
Those are very different projects, and it’s a tremendously ambitious combination to attempt in less than 200 pages.
I think a lot of his critics have dug in their heels and even ridiculed him because they don’t buy (2) or (3), without paying proper attention to how he’s right or wrong about (1).
He’s sort of asking for it by interleaving these things and not keeping the different projects clear, but it’s unfortunate that people haven’t addressed the different issues as separately and clearly as they could.
Part of the problem is that Harris gets ahead of himself with yet another goal, which he fails to address well at all:
(4) to show that unmistaken morality will converge a lot and be very useful.
I think that’s a very subtle and difficult issue, and that the proof is ultimately in the pudding. Harris’s own more specific moral framework doesn’t have to be right for him to be right that unmistaken morality is a coherent and useful idea, or even that it will converge a lot—it just may not converge to what Harris currently thinks it will.
I think I’m rather more optimistic than Russell about unmistaken morality converging very usefully, but I don’t think Harris has made a good case for that yet. I’m also more sympathetic to talk about such morality being true or “objective,” but Harris hasn’t explained that well, either. It would necessarily entail serious discussion of metaethics and (I think) philosophy of language.
I noticed the Bertrand Russell quotes in your post. Regarding Harris, it’s worth considering these thoughts from Russell too.
Paul W.
No, I wouldn’t. Whether justice has an actual nature, or whether it’s a fiction imposed by human minds, is the question. So I can’t agree that there even is a true nature of justice. Presumably, justice means more than preference. I can’t deny that we have preferences, whether one preference is better than another, well, that’s the argument.
If your purposes aren’t meta-ethical, then I don’t think we’re having the same conversation. I agree that sociopaths are dangerous, just like I agree that people have preferences for harsher or lighter punishment and I agree that some legal and economic regimes tend to favor small numbers of people. That people have preferences, that some cultures punish more harshly than others, and that sociopaths are dangerous, are all descriptive propositions that I hold. I see no reason to doubt them.
Again, where did you get the “should?” The should is in question. Should doesn’t just mean, “Hey, it would be good for our health to dissuade sociopaths.” It would be good for our health to let old ladies that have wandered into the wrong neighborhood to fend for themselves, or not rescue the neighbor boy who’s stuck on the roof. Yet it’s sometimes good to put one’s health at risk. So “good” does not mean the exact same thing as “healthy.” This is a conversation about moral epistemology. An argument about whether moral knowledge is possible, and if so, if it’s merely a relativistic matter. Not about whether you can rationalize your moral preferences. Admittedly, you can.
I’m sorry I realize you wrote quite bit that I didn’t respond to, but I don’t think we’re talking about the same thing, and the quotes I’ve picked out here are the most illustrative of that.
Moral belief is epistemologically ambitious. More ambitious than belief in a external world that behaves regularly. Morality claims more than that people are dangerous, or that some people prefer certain legal regimes to others, or that constraining the freedom of sociopaths will work to make non-sociopaths safer. Now Harris might have begged out of the more hairy meta-ethical discussions by saying his was a modest project of simply providing a rational framework for like-minded people to rationalize their moral outlook and work through instrumental questions, but he didn’t. He went bold. He said science can determine human values and can do more than simply help us get what we wan and can show that we’re right and the Taliban is wrongt. This is not a conversation about morality can be made rational. It can. The problem is, so can immorality. So that’s part of the problem.
Ughh. The last two sentence again, if you don’t mind:
He said science can determine human values, can do more than simply help us get what we want, and can show that we’re right and the Taliban is wrong. This is not a conversation about whether morality can be made rational. It can. The problem is, so can immorality. That’s part of the problem.
John (#64) – As to the first quote, everything we say about anything in the world is inherently subjective, which is why we need a process like science in the first place, to arrive at anything like reliable knowledge. So that argument is a non-starter.
As to the second, if we consider the morality of something “independent of its effects”, then we are actually talking about a free-floating idea that is not constrained by facts and scientific treatment. (Which last bit I would contest, by the way. Of course science has something to say, for example, about the alleged magical properties of shaken water.) But in Harris’s case, as I have repeatedly said, we are not dealing with a free-floating idea of ‘well-being’. I would be much relieved if somebody could finally address the actual arguments, because I’d really like to see them tested. Conversely, I would like assertions such as “questions as to ‘values’ lie wholly outside the domain of knowledge” to be supported by actual arguments—not least because the are by definition untrue if we tie our values to notions like ‘well-being’.
Or 4. I need to go to bed.
But before I do, seriously, Sam Harris could have avoided a lot of this by actually learning from the discipline that has made it their purpose to understand all of this. I speak of moral philosophy, and meta-ethics in particular. Harris not only avoided the particular jargon of moral philosophy and meta-ethics, but avoided the insights of these fields as well.
Case in point, on page 37, that Peter Beattie has pointed us to:
“It is essential to see that the demand for radical justification leveled by the moral skeptic could not be met by any branch of science. Science is defined with reference to the goal of understanding the processes at work in the universe. Can we justify this goal scientifically? Of course not. Does this make science itself unscientific? If so, we appear to have pulled ourselves down by our bootstraps.”
This is a massive confusion. Let me clear away the cob webs:
1) See, if the question is whether the goal of science can be justified, then it’s moral question, and as such, falls into the same boat as morality. It’s a good thing we don’t need a meta-ethical justification since we all care about science so much. Whether truth is worth pursuing for its own sake is a very “meta” question, and as such suffers from the same problems that Harris ignores in the case of morality.
2) Now, when it comes to the truths that each field reports, be it physics, chemistry, biology, etc, then we’re NOT in the same boat at all anymore. The intellectual justification for an external world that behaves regularly that can be learned about through a systematic study (science) has a lot going for it right off the bat. The best abductive explanation is that there actually is an external world that behaves regularly, and that science gives us warranted things to believe about it.
3) Most importantly, whether the goal of science is unscientific is just a category error. The term “scientifi”c refers to processes that make claims for the truth of the aforementioned external world. The goal of finding truth in the first place is non-scientific, but not unscientific. The term “unscientific” is a term to describe claims made about the world that fails the test of science.
4) Morality is more ambitious than this. It insists that there are good and bad non-instrumental reasons to do certain things, and that if you don’t agree with that, you’re wrong. Get that? You can’t just say, “I don’t care about morality” the way you can say “I don’t care about science,” least someone come along and brand you dysfunctional and a “sociopath.” The nature of moral claims is ambitious. And there is no abductive evidence we can appeal to that will settle the argument, the way it will with the radical skeptic.
So we’re clear, it’s true, no field can be justified axiomatically. We’re not looking for that. But in morality, it’s the very clash of axioms that creates much of the problem.
Peter Beattie,
The difference is, in science we transcend our subjective feelings through actual evidence, not just through the intersubjective counting of heads.
Instead of just incessantly stopming your foot, summarize the arguments, for chrissakes. I don’t know why the fact that Harris’ idea isn’t “free-floating” is supposed to make a damn bit of difference, and apparently the others on here don’t either since no one has divined the subtle argument Harris is making, by your lights.
In other words, while I wait with bated breath for Peter Beattie’s answer, (actually, while I step away and entertain other parts of life) to paraphrase a recent post, the term “unscientific” is an instrumental term right off the bat. Science is scientific as long as it remains true to its non-tendentious goals. Now, is the whole goal that motivates science scientific? Well, of course not. That’s easy. But that doesn’t make it “unscientific” when unscientific means “fails the tests of science”; clearly everything that’s not science doesn’t run afoul of science. See that’s just a confused way of looking at the issue.
But if, by chance, we were looking for the same justification for pursuing the goal that science pursues, well, then we actually would have the same problem. Science gets its support through the esteem of the people, partly because people are impressed with technological progress. But if someone came along and said we have no good reason to do it in the first place, and didn’t care about all the instrumental benefits that most of us care about, then we would, true enough, be in the same boat of not being able to justify the goal of science. That really doesn’t matter. We care about science. Big deal.
On the other hand, it’s actually important that in the cases of moral disagreement, moral nihilism, and moral skepticism are about questioning/challenging the axioms in the first place. This is partly because of the rampant and shocking moral disagreement there is in the world and because people have a hard time reconciling objectively binding values in a naturalistic world (they ought to have had a hard time in a supernaturalistic world as well, but of well). These axioms are supposed to motivate us, and if they don’t, it’s said that we’re somehow dysfunctional. The goal of truth is a moral goal. So we could call people that don’t care about science whatever we want as well. Whether that would be justified is another matter.
None of this means we should stop doing science. I mean, hey, knock yourself out. The flip side of not being able to justify the goal is that not pursuing the goal can’t be justified either. So do what you want. Get people to agree with you, etc.
We can continue to do what we want, we can continue to be disgusted by people that throw battery acid in little girls’ faces, and we can continue to learn about the natural world through science. Moral skepticism won’t stop us. However, when we say that there is a fact of the matter that science can discover that will show that the Taliban is wrong, we’re just patting ourselves on the back.
Sorry everybody. I’ll step away. I doubt any more light will be shed on this topic, based on the entry that started the thread (somehow, this blog post got linked on Philosophy Bites Daily, which is how I got here. I’ll be more careful next time).
I imagine I’ll have to make crystal clear, that when I said this
I meant that no field can win an argument over its justification by referring to its own axioms (“win the argument” legitimately, rather than just persuading, because we all agree that persuasion is not always done legitimately). Someone could say that goal of science was unjustified and could say we shouldn’t look for what’s true and we could not refute her by referring to axioms, because after all, the skeptic/nihilist doesn’t share them. Science is true. Now, is the goal of science justified? Well, if that’s in dispute, then I don’t know. If you say it is, you’ve taken on the burden of demonstrating why. In everyday life, feel free to simply cite the instrumental benefits we get from it, and appeal to the emotions of people that care about pursuing truth for its own sake. But if you insist that the goal of science is morally superior to the goal of suppression, and you have evidence you can appeal to, to help you demonstrate that, then you’ve really made your job impossibly hard.
I find myself wanting to agree with both Paul W. and J. Jeffers. At the most fundamental level, I agree with the latter, but I do think that Paul W. is doing a very good job of showing how we can justify morality to ourselves on a naturalistic basis (though it will eventually depend on desires, etc., that we actually have – that’s my main point). You are both saying a lot of things that the other accepts and that I think I accept; and all these things need to be said. I’ll try to say them all when/if I write my own book, if one of you doesn’t beat me to it.
OTOH, I still don’t know what serious argument Sam has put for his metaethical position. In his responses at The Huffington Post and the ABC portal it seems to come down to “my spade is turned”. Well, Sam’s spade (no relation to the Dashiell Hammett character) may be turned at this point, but mine isn’t.
And, JJ, please don’t go. Our little network benefits from your contributions. Do have a look at the related threads over at Metamagician and the Hellfire Club. And stay tuned for more stuff on this to be published today at the ABC religion and ethics portal.
Yes, J Jeffers, stick around, if you will.
Sean (#28) – “Also, random pet peeve: we don’t always have a very good idea of which states should be considered healthier than others, … which can be a big problem in medical decision-making and ethics! So it’s weird when Sam Harris stands before an audience and compares well-being to health in order to assert that the definition is not too vague. It’s like the “I know it when I see it.” approach to defining morality;” I think your first concern is obviously not a problem, since having no answer in practice doesn’t mean having no answer in principle, and only the latter is required for the question to be considered scientific (cf. RD’s God Hypothesis). The second one is also not to the point, as there are certain specific elements of health as well as of well-being that anyone making a judgement on health or morality would be required to refer to. A cancerous growth in your liver is not simply obviously unhealthy, but because it is a (likely) cause of, for example, discomfort and premature death; similarly, dragging someone out of a river is not intrinsically good, but it becomes so if I help that person avoid a foreseeable sharp decline in her well-being due to drowning. As in any science, facts alone would never be enough to settle any dispute; argument (and its inherently uncertain outcomes) cannot be got out of the equation. As Harris did in The Great Debate, I would ask if any compelling arguments can be made to the effect that the health analogy does not in fact hold.
Russell’s post on this
http://metamagician3000.blogspot.com/2011/02/even-more-discussions-of-harris.html
and the next one
http://metamagician3000.blogspot.com/2011/02/more-on-peter-beatties-thread-at.html
J. Jeffers (#69) – “Instead of just incessantly stopming your foot, summarize the arguments, for chrissakes.
I already did, in #31. Harris’s own account starts on p. 32 of TML. He also gives his arguments in his talk at The Great Debate.
“I don’t know why the fact that Harris’ idea isn’t “free-floating” is supposed to make a damn bit of difference”
I explained that in #31 as well. You keep saying that referring to an axiom for justification is question-begging. I pointed out that the reference is not ultimately (which is what matters for your argument) to an axiomatic statement, i.e. the conclusion that morality can only be about ‘well-being’, but to the arguments adduced in its defence.
It’s funny to me to read these philosophers argue ad nauseum about well-being, and how can we define right vs wrong, and whether morality is something we can measure. J. Jeffers, for example, makes the statement: “As for Harris and his book tour, he’s said that we know the Taliban is wrong when it tries to justify throwing battery acid in a little girl’s face. Now, the members of his audience, many of them, aren’t philosophers, and so may not be well-versed in what moral skepticism is.”
Isn’t this just so wonderfully academic! These “philosophers” are discussing a human child having acid thrown into her face, and for J. Jeffers, it’s just a sentence to be analysed to buttress his arguments. I wonder if, after meeting these little disgfigured children living, for the rest of their lives, with disfigurement and pain, he could still be so objective and academic — using them as tools to make his case?
I wanted to study Philosophy years ago when I was at Universtiy, but instead chose Physics. I am so glad I did. As philosophers argue for decades about whether well-being, morality, and health, for example, can be objectively quantified, Scientists will simply attempt to operationalise and measure them! And, in time, the volume of research in Science that shows how morality can be objectively measured, and how we, globally, ought to behave to promote universal well-being, philosophers will become ever more unimportant in this discussion.
Sam Harris presents a strong thesis in his book. But apart from being a philosopher, he is also a Neuroscientist. So, he throws his philosphical argument out there, and then moves forward in Science to test it. Philosophers are left squawking back and forth, full of “sound and fury”, but ultimately, “signifying nothing”.
Paul W.,
When you say morality is not just one thing, you seem sympathetic to the possibility that morality is a family resemblance concept. But that would be inconsistent with your claim that it is a natural kind. Certainly we have reason to suppose that morality is nothing like water or gold, and that any attempt to arrive at a scientific definition of it will fail to circumscribe the common meaning of the term in relevant ways.
Sam Harris does not argue that the Taliban is wrong for not valuing well-being. Rather, he argues, and I concur, that the Taliban does aim to maximize well-being, but does a very poor job of it. Indeed, all of us value well-being, weather we recognize it or not.
Where the Taliban has gone wrong is in their mistaken belief that the truly consequential changes in well-being occur only after death, and that the way to achieve the positive outcome in the afterlife (“heaven” or “paradise”) is to rigidly enforce the dictates of Islamic scripture as they perceive them. If that sometimes requires throwing acid in girls’ faces, so be it. The Taliban believes that this life is a relative triviality compared to the afterlife.
Have you ever wondered why no religious person feels compelled to argue that heaven is the one that we ought to desire, and hell is the one we ought to avoid? Why is no one asking, “Why should I prefer heaven to hell?” It’s because we all value well-being, and recognize that heaven (as it’s commonly understood) represents a maximum, and hell a minimum.
Adamadam,
Your comment (#78) is a textbook example of the type of thinking I fear Harris’s disdain for engaging with complex philosophical argument engenders in his readers. What you see as ‘squawking’ is no less intellectually demanding or heroic or necessary than a scientist laboring over piles of empirical data. That you don’t understand why these arguments are being debated at this level is not an excuse to dumb down and retreat into language you do understand. Ironically, and this very point was made in the very comment (#7) from which you quoted, Harris’s use of the acid in the face vignette was an appeal to his audience’s emotions – as opposed to trying to get past the rigor of their intellect with arguments that address legitimate problems moral philosophers have grappled with for centuries. Guess what? You’ve fallen for it.
I think some people don’t WANT morality or ethics to be the subject of scientific study. They want such things to be the Morality of the Gap.
So it’s gets all “philosophical” and dissociates itself from the subject matter and morphs into one of those unwieldy “Big Questions” that tend to not get an answer. Ironically, PZ Myers had a good point in one of his talks: ask the right questions, ones that are manageable. Don’t ask “How does evolution work”, rather ask smaller, simpler questions like how one particular protein gets to graft itself to the surface of a particular type of cell in the body.
I think Harris’ scientific analysis of morality is fruitful if such small questions are asked.
One could scientifically analyze the impact of different ways of child rearing on self-esteeem, where those ways of child rearing that result in the least self-esteem would be considered worse than those that inculcate a good amount of realistic self-esteem.
It would have to be even more specific, of course. Like analyzing whether it’s better for a child’s well-being – mediated through self-esteem – to be praised for effort or results, or if there is even an optimal mix between the two?
In marriages I believe researchers found out that if the ratio of praise to criticism was bout 5:1 that would make the marriage much more succesful. Too much criticism and the marriage unit falls apart, no criticism and it gets to be vacuous, stale. Well, if it IS like this, that says a great deal about how you OUGHT to treat the missus at home, doesn’t it?
I don’t give much credit to people who think that “it’s a good thing to bring up people with extreme low self-esteem, because they think it’s great that children feel like shit their entire life and will be prone to substance abuse and other addictions”. Come on, philosophers, that one aint difficult unless you only live in your head and can’t empathize with people in pain. Yes, it IS kinda obvious, isn’t it? I’m just puzzled at why anyone would want to make such things so frakking complicated? Essentially you’re debating whether or not it’s a bad thing for me to plunge a knife into your stomach.
Do YOU want to increase or decrease your self-esteem? Do YOU want acid thrown in your face? Would you like to be the property of another human or the State, or do you want freedom?
At the very least let’s start with the obvious then see when the grey areas starts appearing.
But as far as I understand Harris, he denies this is the question. Harris claim seems more that science can determine this ultimate goal.
Harris wants to bring the moral questions into the scientific domain. But he doesn’t follow through. “Why should I accept this statement” can be a value question or a scientific question. It can be a question from an anti-scientific attitude who wants a response to that attitude. It can also be a scienitific question, asking for your work that supports your claim.
As I understand it, the opponents of Harris ask him the scientific version and Harris ducks it by responding to the value interpretation.
“Do YOU want to increase or decrease your self-esteem? Do YOU want acid thrown in your face? Would you like to be the property of another human or the State, or do you want freedom?”
You’re right. There really are no moral dilemmas, philosophers made them up. Real people never ask themselves whether they should spend more time increasing their child’s self esteem or maybe devote some of that time to work at the soup kitchen; no one ever wonders whether they should give up current pleasure for a possible future well-being; people are never faced with problems of abortion and euthanasia. Everyone agrees on what freedom means and entails and how it is to be achieved. And if they don’t, I’m sure you can prove it to them in your chemistry lab.
If only it was so simple. Does freedom increase your self-esteem? Are people happier and more fulfilled in societies where they feel strong obligations to each other and particularly to their families? If not, are some (young singles say) less happy but others (children? Older people?) more happy?
And do you feel in your gut – I don’t care, I’d rather be free? That feeling in your gut doesn’t actually justify your preference, it isn’t an argument that others are wrong. If it is important then it argues against well-being being the only criterion that matters.
What about justice? We feel revulsion about a child being maimed not only because it hurts her, but because it is so unfair. But what is battery acid was being dripped on her face to persuade her parents to say where they planted a bomb – is that justified? Should we protect the little girl even though the lives of hundreds (the overall well being) is at stake?
This is the conflict. Well-being is an important factor in what we see as moral. But it isn’t the only factor. Trying to reduce justice to well-being (everyone feels better if no-one is ever tortured) not only seems a little implausible to me, it introduces the question – why not keep it secret? Is it moral for the government to keep things secret, because we’d be upset if we knew? How far should this go? As far as stopping (upsetting) scientific research?
Quite, Tea (#84). The appeal of moral realism is directly proportional to the extremeness of the examples chosen to shame the skeptics. I invite Harris’s supporters to stop talking about acid in faces and beating women and pedophiles and such, and start enlightening us as to how accepting a naturalistic morality moves us closer to definitively resolving the moral problems advanced Western cultures ACTUALLY grapple with, e.g. abortion, euthanasia, socialism versus free-market capitalism, censorship versus free speech, interventionism vs isolationism, and so on.
Some of Harris’ defenders seem to be under the impression that, if Harris is wrong, then we have no non-religious basis for condemning horrors. (Harris himself has made the same mistake multiple times, repeatedly claiming that he is offering the only alternative to moral relativism since religious demagoguery.) But why can’t cultural or individual preference be a legitimate basis for condemning behavior?
What Harris’ more aroused and irate supporters want, I think, is an excuse to stop worrying about whether or not they are justified in condemning horrifying behavior from people of different cultural backgrounds. The answer is, yes, you are justified. Of course you are justified. Why wouldn’t you be?
The trickier questions come when we try to understand the causes of these horrors, and when we try to find ways of grappling with them in acceptable ways.
Let’s take a concrete example: sexism in the Islamic world. Would the world be a better place if women in Islamic countries were treated differently? Most of us would probably agree without hesitation to the answer to that question. This is not because we are all clued in to the truth about well-being, though. It’s because we have certain values.
Consider how Harris’ approach might play out in a discussion of women’s rights in Islamic countries. Defenders of Islamic tradition might argue that Western culture is morally corrupt, and that Western men shouldn’t allow women to go around showing off their bodies. It’s up to men to take a stand, and Western men are too weak to do it, they say. This might be, as Harris says, simply a matter of beliefs about well-being. The question Sam Harris asks is, is it better for the well-being of conscious creatures if men are in a position to limit the way women dress, and if men do place such restrictions on women?
Harris might be confident that we’ve already got enough scientific evidence to answer this question once and for all. We’ve crossed this moral hurdle, right? I’m not so sure. I doubt we could easily come to agreement on just what factors would have to be considered when trying to answer this or similar questions. What if statistical models showed that sexist societies were more evolutionarily stable in the long run? What if the levels of scientific and cultural flourishing were actually shown to be statistically higher for sexist societies? What if neurological studies showed that men and women in sexist societies were overall happier? Or, what if various values pointed in one direction, but others pointed in the opposite direction? Why assume that, if we had all the facts, we would know which was better? And why assume that there is line in nature separating the relevant from the irrelevant facts? We can disagree about which facts to consider here, and there is no fact about who is right or wrong when it comes to that.
I’m not convinced that Muslims are simply wrong about the answer to the sexism question. I’m not convinced that it is a question that has a right or wrong answer. I do believe that sexism is wrong, but not in a factual sense. I believe it is wrong in the sense that I don’t want to live in a sexist world. I don’t approve of sexism. But my disapproval is not a matter of getting something right. Not in the way one can get “2 + 2 = 4” right or “F=MA” right, or “George Washington was the first President of the United States” right. That doesn’t mean I’m going to put up with behaviors I find abhorrent. It just means I’m not going to pretend I’ve got the facts on my side when I make my moral judgments.
You are now appealing to our shared values. If Harris had limited his claim to stating that people already share a number of values and that we could in the long run persuade more people to share more of our values and that science could help us in that in and actuallising those values, I think he wouldn’t get that much criticism. But he didn’t limit his claim to that. He claimed that science can determine values and to support that claim you need more than the fact that you and a lot of others agree on a number of values.
Alasdair Cameron,
I find your response to mine both typical and sad, really. You suggest somehow that I don’t understand these arguments on moral philosophy that philosophers have “grappled with for centuries”. Interestingly, you’ve actually supported my argument. What progress do you think philosophers have gained for their CENTURIES of thought on morality? It’s a poignant question, don’t you think?
I can outline in textbook after textbook the advances Science has made in a panoply of areas in the last 10 years. And yet, Philosophers argue back and forth “for centuries” with little to show for their musings.
Secondly, with regard to the “appeal to emotion”, my point is something you dismiss all too readily. I tried to make it very clear to the reader, I thought, that whilst you all argue about well-being and morality, there are women in the world, for example, struggling to survive while their husbands beat them weekly. You sit back at your keyboard in the Western world and try to see if you can use epistemological arguments to define “well-being”. What I’m suggesting to you is, human beings who are being tortured and in deep emotional pain — the likes of which you couldn’t imagine in your worst nightmares — couldn’t care less what you philosophers are trying to do in terms of defining what well-being is and whose well-being we ought to measure. You are simply out of touch.
You may simply dismiss my arguments by suggesting I’ve fallen for some trap with an appeal to emotion. I would suggest, however, that if a human being was being tortured in a village in Africa, I would attempt to save her. You, however, and philosophers like you, would argue back and forth about the logistics and “morality” of whether you ought to disrupt their culture.
Sometimes you stop a culture from doing bad things because it does not promote “well-being”. We don’t have centuries to wait until philosophers come to a consensus on what is considered “bad” and what is considered “well-being”. I realise that will never sit well with a Philosopher … this is why I studied Physics and not Philosophy.
Philosophers like to think and argue their points in a granular manner. That’s great. But you all have to realise, you have very little bearing on the real world. Bertrand Russell outlines this in the last chapter of his book, “The Problems of Philosophy”.
“Physical science, through the medium of inventions, is useful to innumerable people who are wholly ignorant of it; thus the study of physical science is to be recommended, not only, or primarily, because of the effect on the student, but rather because of the effect on mankind in general. Thus utility does not belong to philosophy.”
Bertrand Russell
Adamadam,
Discussing morality doesn’t mean you can’t practise it. Being calm doesn’t mean in a real life situation you wouldn’t get emotional.
It’s true in science and medicine too. If I was looking for a cure for a disease, I’d rather the doctor or scientist that could remain dispassionate while trying to solve the problem, rather than the one who got emotional while trying to solve it. (The ideal is one who is passionate and uses that to fuel her or his search).
Just because science can solve other problems, doesn’t mean it can solve this one. So if it CAN solve this problem, it should be possible to explain how, no? Emotional appeals to the efficacy of science are unscientific, besides anything else.
You are fighting a straw man. The critics of Harris (for as far as I understand) don’t dispute we should save this person. But Harris seems to think that to save or not to save this person is a scientific question. It is this view that the critics have a problem with.
Adamadam,
Philosophers have made plenty of progress in moral philosophy, but it is not scientific progress. It is progress in argumentative sophistication, in conceptual understanding, and in methodological rigour. Moral philosophy is much more advanced than it was a few centuries ago. If you need any evidence of this fact, just look at the role religious authority played in moral philosophy a few centuries ago, and look at the role it plays today.
This doesn’t mean we’ve uncovered any “moral facts,” though. If you’re comparing philosophy to science in terms of who’s earned more scientific breakthroughs, you’re not making a valid argument. You may as well say apples are better than oranges because oranges have yet to provide us with any apple seeds.
Your second point is just ridiculous. You say, ” if a human being was being tortured in a village in Africa, I would attempt to save her.” I suppose you mean that, if you were in a position where it would be easy for you to save somebody from torture, then you would. You think anybody here wouldn’t? What are you doing, exactly, that makes you morally superior to the rest of us?
Your argument is against naive moral relativism, Adamadam, but nobody here is arguing for that. You’re fighting with windmills, and displaying a gross air of superiority, no less.
Really, if your argument is that we should just stop doing metaethics altogether, then your complaint is as applicable to Sam Harris as it is to anyone else. If Sam Harris’ argument was that we shouldn’t let metaethical disputes get in the way of our ability to pursue the Good, then he would have written a very different book, and the present discussion would not exist. You are defending his metaethical arguments on the grounds that metaethical arguments should all be abandoned. It’s absurd.
P.S. Fortunately, Bertrand Russell was not the final word on that (or any other) philosophical question.
I’m embracing this ‘Scientism’. Sounds fine to me, can by definition not be dogmatic, just axiomatic, so I don’t see the problem. I’ve been a ‘scientist’ all my life by that logic, it’s a very positive term ig it means adherence to science as the way to know the world in the absence of relevant other methods. Thankyouverymuch.
Adamadam,
Your introduction of Bertrand Russell into this is too inviting an opportunity not to seize on in the hope of perhaps demonstrating an example of not only intellectual integrity but also the practice of careful and nuanced thinking in the field of morality. Have a read of the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy’s essay entitled ‘Russell’s Moral Philosophy’. Whether or not you agree with Russell’s or the author’s eventual conclusions, what you will find is that he struggled with this very subject (yes, the one you’ve just magisterially dismissed) throughout his life and was humble enough to change his mind numerous times and admit where he believed his insight fell short. What is most important, however, is that his philosophical doubt never prevented him from writing extensively on what values he thought the truly moral life comprised. Which demonstrates a point made by many others that you don’t have to be a moral realist to have strong moral opinions and to express them with all your rhetorical powers.
The link: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/russell-moral/
@ #87
That’s exactly it. What if? We had to grapple with this in writing Does God Hate Women?
It’s not a scientific question. (And that’s good news as well as bad news. Cathyby [I think] said “if only it were” – but actually that’s a be careful what you wish for thing: what if science could “show” that gender inequality made more people more happy? I, for one, would not welcome such a finding at all, nor would I consider it a knock down reason for abandoning gender egalitarianism.)
What if neurological studies did show that men and women in sexist societies were overall happier? They might, you know. What if they did? There would still be issues. What if neurological studies showed that people in slaveowning societies were overall happier? What if neurological studies showed that people in homophobic or racist or xenophobic societies were overall happier?
You see, “well-being” isn’t the only relevant criterion, and even if it were, there are still questions about aggregate well-being as opposed to individual well-being. This is why consequentialism and utilitarianism aren’t the end of the conversation.
[…] Moral Landscape"… again. by Nathan Godwin 11. February 2011 12:52 After having read an article by Peter Beattie at Butterflies & Wheels in which Beattie criticizes a review of […]
Jason Streitfeld:
Yes, in some sense(s) I’m sure it is. So, for example, I’ve already made a distinction between typical mistaken morality, mired in errors like Divine Command Theory or mistaken beliefs about souls and choices, and unmistaken morality.
I don’t think so, if you properly understand what natural kinds are. (And they’re not simple, except in the simplest cases.) I think it’s often more useful to talk about cluster concepts, where there are related but distinct senses of a term, rather than simple “family resemblance” concepts, where it’s something like a fuzzy set with simple degrees of membership. With something as weird as morality you wouldn’t be surprised to find all those things going on in different ways.
Here are a couple of examples that might clarify that: money and sports.
Money is a natural kind, despite being entirely artificial, in that how money works is not arbitrary—money was not so much invented as gradually discovered—it’s a solution to the general problem of exchange that would be reinvented in various cultures if they didn’t have it already, and you can evolve toward that solution by a number of avenues. (E.g., using some scarce thing like cowrie shells or wampum as a common bartering chip, or promises evolving into promissory notes and eventually into a standard currency.)
For something to be money, it has to obey certain rules—e.g., nobody can simply make more at will, and deflate the money too much. And whatever representation of money is, whether it’s currency or bits in computers, the rules are fairly specific.
Still, there are different natural kinds of money—e.g., money that’s all represented as currency, and physically exchanged, vs. more abstract money represented as numbers in networks of computers, manipulated according to banking rules. Each is a sub-natural kind of money, so money is something like a cluster concept, but still a natural kind (of natural kinds).
Now think about sports. Like money, athletics and games are more discovered than invented. (Though we may more or less invent particular games and athletic forms, like chess and baseball.)
Games and athletics are natural consequences of human nature—people have propensities to enjoy competition and cooperation for no real stakes, and to enjoy physical activities, much like my puppy enjoys play-fighting and so on. Playing is something we’re evolved to do, and we’re evolved to be particularly interested in cooperation and competition, as well as physical prowess, so if we suddenly didn’t have or remember games and athletics, people all over the world would rediscover them pretty quickly.
In combination with our intellectual abilities, our mammalian and ape heritage makes it inevitable that many people will be interested in the human drama of athletic competition, the thrill of victory, the agony of defeat, and so on.
There you have two overlapping natural kinds—games including chess, and simple athletic activity, including non-competitive running, etc. In the overlap you get competitive sports. Throw in cooperation, and you get cooperative sports and competitive team sports. Each of these things is IMHO a natural kind, because each combination of the basic features inevitably appeals to somebody, and often to the same people in different ways. (E.g., some people like solitary running, other people like one-on-one competition, other people prefer cooperating in teams, etc.)
Given that sports is (I claim) a natural kind, we can objectively make normative statements about sports, for example:
I claim that’s an objective statement, and that it’s objectively true. No doubt about it, Michael Jordan is a better athlete than me, for any reasonable concept of “athlete.” He’s stronger, faster, more coordinated, better able to assess and predict changing three-dimensionial configurations, able to think strategically—cooperatively and competitively—in real time, brilliantly, and so on.
Sports is a messy natural kind, with both discrete sub-kinds and fuzzy sets, i.e., very arguable degrees of membership.
Is bowling much of a sport? Is solo long-distance running? Is tiddlywinks a sport at all? Is pub darts a better sport than fly fishing?
Many of those questions may not have objective answers—they’re off in odd areas around the fringes.
Still, if you ask Is Michael Jordan a better athlete than Paul W.? there is only one possible answer—yes, absolutely—and it’s objectively true. Irrespective of whether you like sports, or hate athletics and prefer wimpy nerds, or any of those other subjective things, if you know anything about sports, and the relevant facts about Michael Jordan and me, you know that is simply true.
People may have different ideas about what the prototypical or best sport is, and differ incommensurably in how they weight various factors in assessing a sport or an athlete—how important is raw physical prowess and stamina? How important is refined physical skill? How important is competitiveness? How important is cooperativeness? How important is subtle strategy? How important is quick judgment?—and their judgments may be incommensurable in difficult cases.
This is just not one of those cases. If Michael Jordan isn’t a better athlete than me, “athlete” is one of Carlin’s “meaningless fucking terms,” and we know that’s not true. It definitely means something, and it’s certainly not just a matter of subjective opinion.
—
That’s essentially the approach I see Harris taking to the truth and objectivity of moral statements. Somebody who doesn’t care at all about sports—and doesn’t even really “get” why other people do, emotionally—can still see that Michael Jordan is a better athlete than me. Likewise, even a sociopath should be able to understand that gratuitously harming others is wrong, even if they personally don’t mind that a bit, or delight in it with no actual compunction.
As with sports, the basic logic of the domain itself constrains what can count as a good moral agent.
Consider an athlete who takes money under the table to throw a game. Irrespective of how you personally feel about it, that’s should be clearly a violation of the norms of sports—it undermines the logic of competition and cooperation that everyone else is counting on to enjoy the game. If you don’t care about sports and do care about business, you might respect the cheater as a sharp, ruthless business person, but not as a “good athlete.”
(Similarly, professional wrestling in the US objectively just isn’t a good sport, even if you enjoy it as a form of theater. It’s just too rigged scripted.)
Similarly, somebody who generally reasons invalidly and from false premises isn’t a good moral agent; they’ll have too much difficulty correctly recognizing others’ interests and taking them into account. It’s generally recognized that being basically rational and interested in truth is part of the morality “game,” without which the rest doesn’t work. As in sports, there may be various sub-kinds of morality, and fuzzy cases, but it’s nonetheless quite false that “anything goes.”
Double shucks, the last paragraph of that long post wasn’t me, either, but part of what I was responding to from Jason. (“Certainly we have reason to suppose…”) Very sorry.
Peter Beattie,
Is ^this^ what you’re talking about? I don’t see an argument here that I haven’t addressed.
I pointed out the difference between radical skepticism about the external world and moral skepticism, and how the respective skepticisms are different. I pointed out that believe science gives us warranted belief about the external world, and that those who disagree with us on our terms are unwarranted. I didn’t just say *that* they were unwarranted, but I explained that the most warranted belief is one in an external world that behaves regularly, such that we can understand it better through a systematic study (science). Catholic epistemologies, from the sound of it, don’t even adopt the same goal, so I have no reason to think it can uncover facts that science does, or as well at least. You don’t have to agree, but you didn’t even respond. I guess I should add that if Catholic Epistemology says that truth isn’t important, then we’re having a moral dispute, and that in this case we don’t actually have any knock down argument that should sway them. I prefer truth for its own sake, and I enjoy technological progress and medical science and the rest. So I’m relieved the social momentum is on my side about this. I would suggest that you get clear on whether you mean for Catholic Epistemologies are a challenge to science on the terms of finding truth no matter what it says about god and the like, or if it’s simply something that devalues the truth we value in science. If it’s the former, the question is easy: science wins. If it’s the latter, then we’ve got a Mexican Standoff.
I also pointed that you need to say something more than that my contentions make “well-being” a “meaningless fucking term.” What we want is not to say rival conceptions is that they’re expressing conceptions that are bad, not just different from ours. So there’s a difference between saying, “It is morally praiseworthy to kill a woman who has been raped” on the one hand, and “It is morally praiseworthy to hytm**9,bernap.” If we say the latter makes well-being meaningless, we haven’t said anything about the morality of meaninglessness. If we say the former is immoral, and we go further and we say that such assessments are not merely quirks of our provincial outlook, but instead that they’re (honor killers) wrong to prefer what they do, then we’ve got a big job on our hands.
If your summary is simply that conscious states are a prerequisite for morality, then so. what? People apparently get *some* satisfaction out of their actions, even when those actions are really deplorable from our point of view. The fact that I’ve said that already leads me to believe that your statement that I wasn’t dealing with the argument is hasty.
As for Mill saying the proof I’m looking for doesn’t exist, I agree! I already said that we can’t assume that there’s a good answer that would justify a realist view of morality. If you agree that such proof can’t and doesn’t exist, then what business do you have defending (even provisionally) the thesis of TML? I’ve already explained that radical skepticism about the external world is unwarranted, but not in the same boat as moral skepticism. Now, if you’re assuming that science, at its core, is justified, then stop making that assumption. It’s not. Nor is any field. Thankfully, we don’t need justification to get the really cool benefits. HOWEVER, moral arguments that involved extremely different view, and particularly meta-ethical arguments, are not about comparing really cool benefits, it’s more like whether there is a fact of the matter that can settle radical disagreement over what to value.
As for the deductive process, that doesn’t impress me. “It is right to exterminate the Jew. Therefore let’s round them up and put them in gas chambers.” How does that strike you?
(Now I’m not accusing you of approving of such a thing, and I regret that I even have to say that. But it appears that there are people who fall victim to the very rhetorical effect of moral obviousness that I was so concerned about at first, and I’m still not saying Harris argues from the form “this is obvious to me, therefore it’s correct).
So, back to the actual argument. Just about anything can be preserved through a deductive process. But surely you know that, so I don’t expect you to think of that as a important issue.
Ophiela Benson and Russell Blackford,
Thank you both for the invites back. I really just meant that I should step back from the computer since I had kinda hogged the posting there for a few minutes. Plus, I meant that I won’t assume that if a post is linked to Philosophy Bites Daily, that it’s particularly rigorous. But that’s the blogosphere I guess.
And anyway, my grammar and spelling lacks rigor, so I’ll try to make up for it in argument.
BTW Peter Beattie,
I hope you see the manifestation of the rhetorical effect I feared early on. I linked to the TED talk where I asserted that the persuasive effects of Harris’ presentation were an appeal to the audience’s already held passions. (and please, notice again, this doesn’t mean that Harris is arguing from the form “this is obvious to me, therefore it’s true). Anyway, Exhibit A:
I think some people don’t WANT morality or ethics to be the subject of scientific study. They want such things to be the Morality of the Gap.
So it’s gets all “philosophical” and dissociates itself from the subject matter and morphs into one of those unwieldy “Big Questions” that tend to not get an answer. Ironically, PZ Myers had a good point in one of his talks: ask the right questions, ones that are manageable. Don’t ask “How does evolution work”, rather ask smaller, simpler questions like how one particular protein gets to graft itself to the surface of a particular type of cell in the body.
I think Harris’ scientific analysis of morality is fruitful if such small questions are asked.
One could scientifically analyze the impact of different ways of child rearing on self-esteeem, where those ways of child rearing that result in the least self-esteem would be considered worse than those that inculcate a good amount of realistic self-esteem.
It would have to be even more specific, of course. Like analyzing whether it’s better for a child’s well-being – mediated through self-esteem – to be praised for effort or results, or if there is even an optimal mix between the two?
In marriages I believe researchers found out that if the ratio of praise to criticism was bout 5:1 that would make the marriage much more succesful. Too much criticism and the marriage unit falls apart, no criticism and it gets to be vacuous, stale. Well, if it IS like this, that says a great deal about how you OUGHT to treat the missus at home, doesn’t it?
I don’t give much credit to people who think that “it’s a good thing to bring up people with extreme low self-esteem, because they think it’s great that children feel like shit their entire life and will be prone to substance abuse and other addictions”. Come on, philosophers, that one aint difficult unless you only live in your head and can’t empathize with people in pain. Yes, it IS kinda obvious, isn’t it? I’m just puzzled at why anyone would want to make such things so frakking complicated? Essentially you’re debating whether or not it’s a bad thing for me to plunge a knife into your stomach.
Do YOU want to increase or decrease your self-esteem? Do YOU want acid thrown in your face? Would you like to be the property of another human or the State, or do you want freedom?
At the very least let’s start with the obvious then see when the grey areas starts appearing.
I meant to quote everything after Exhibit A. Anyway, this time I’ll do it right. Exhibit B:
Yes I got that part, thanks!
For the record: this part of the website is not the “blogosphere,” because there is an editorial filter.
Paul, is that right now? The last para of #97 was supposed to be a block quote?
This is silly. Throwing battery acid in a little girl’s face makes her worse off, by anyone’s estimation. As does killing a girl for being raped. The varying moral outlooks in question are not obviously pursuing the same goals. As a matter of fact, honor systems and rights systems value radically different things. You can say it’s because people want to be with 72 virgins when they die that they do this, and this is what truly accounts for the motivation to kill girls that have been raped, but then you’ve turned it all into a question of fact. So when I miss a question on an exam, is this like killing a girl for being raped? No, because one is merely a mistake of accuracy. I imagine you can figure out which one.
And in any case, those who believe they will be with 72 virgins in paradise believe that certain people that end up hell deserve it. Now, what accounts for why they believe that is interesting, but not the primary issue. The issue is that they’re told us that certain people deserve horrible things to happen to them for reasons that we find horrible. Even if their belief is based on more mistaken meta-belief, it doesn’t boil down to the very same conception of well-being we have. Even their conception of well-being is different, not just their view of the physical world.
They think it’s good to throw battery acid in a little girl’s face for complicated reasons. But let’s simplify it and say it’s because they believe God wants it to happen(close enough). Now, let’s postulate that this is true (that God wants it to happen). Do you find that to be a good reason? Why not? I thought that when we all agreed on the background facts, then our moral disagreement would float away! The thing is, we find this god to be a horrible god, and rightly so, in my book. The (assumed) fact that he created the universe does not make it right to throw battery acid in a little girl’s face; we should have learned that much from Plato. It’s not just a disagreement over facts.
And anyway, if all else fails, we’ve got the trust ole sociopaths to talk about. Try refuting them without question begging. It’s impossible. As is justifying science. Now, justifying belief in the external world? That’s another matter.
I see. I suppose I’m not up on what counts and what doesn’t. I look forward to your review. Ballpark on when it’ll post? I’m not sure if PBD will link to it, and I don’t want to miss it.
Ah no. Beware euphemism. It’s not people who do that because they want that, or even people who are said or thought to do that because they want that. It’s men. Nobody thinks women want to be with 72 virgins when they die. Nobody thinks “being with” 72 virgins postmortem is any kind of bribe for women.
(It’s also a weird bribe even for men, if you think about it. What – 72 really good fucks and then that’s it? Or is the idea that the virgins stay virgins despite being fucked and the 72 is just for thrilling variety? These theological niceties are taxing.)
It will post sometime after the mag itself appears, I think, and that will be in about a month.
Anyway, I’ve had someone talking in my ear the whole time I’ve been posting, so I hope that mitigates the sloppy writing. In spite of it, Peter Beattie, originator of this whole thread, I would be interested in your reply to #99.
Talking in my ear about other things, that is.
Opheilia Benson,
I’m sure it’s not lost on you, but I was (awkwardly) trying to forestall conversation about how the mistaken beliefs of honor killers is what drives them to do what they do. There’s still an actual moral disagreement either way, and that’s what’s important, in my view.
As for your questions about virgins, I had my divine male fate all worked out in my head till you came along and ruined it for me. So stop muddying up Allah’s word with with your undisciplined curiosity. ;)
Paul W.,
I’m not sure what you call a “proper” understanding of natural kinds is what generally passes for an understanding of natural kinds. By what definition of “natural kind” do you allow sports, money, and games to enter as members of the set?
Money and sports are differentiated solely through the exercise of human interests, and so couldn’t possibly count as natural kinds. Morality, too, seems to exist purely through the exercise of human interests. So why count it as a natural kind?
The point about family resemblance concepts may be a bit more subtle than you are recognizing. A family resemblance concept, traditionally defined, is one which lacks either necessary or sufficient conditions. Natural kinds, however, have necessary conditions. So it does seem that, if morality is a family resemblance concept, then it cannot be a natural kind.
<blockquote>Still, if you ask Is Michael Jordan a better athlete than Paul W.? there is only one possible answer—yes, absolutely—and it’s objectively true.</blockquote>
There are objective measures for athletic prowess, no doubt about that. But that does not mean “athlete” is a natural kind. Nor does it mean that you have established a normative fact. “Michael Jordan is a better athlete than Paul W.” is not a normative statement. I don’t think this line of argument can help Harris.
Jason Streitfeld,
I agree 100%. One note of caution: “Michael Jordan is a better athlete than Paul W.” is an evaluative statement. Error theorist J.L. Mackie discusses these kinds of evaluation in his essay “The Subjectivity of Value,” before distinguishing these kinds of evaluation from moral evaluation. He speaks of aesthetic evaluation that can be rationally made with certain standards, etc. This addition is probably superfluous in your case, but, better safe than sorry.
“Michael Jordan is a better athlete than J. Jeffers” is not the same as “Humans evolve by natural selection.” Not exactly at least. But more importantly, that doesn’t make “Michael Jordan is a better athlete than J. Jeffers” the same as “Murder is wrong.”
Not all evaluations are created equal. Some are instrumental (scientific, aesthetic, athletic) other are moral. Mackie does not deny factual basis of the former kind of evaluations, only the latter.
The way you write, you probably didn’t need to be informed of this, but I think it’s a common place these kinds of arguments get stuck, which is why Mackie chose to address it, I imagine.
Peter Beattie
My grammar, spelling, and presentation were inexcusable. I had someone trying to talk to me about other things, so let me do it over, and step away. When I return, I hope to have your thoughts:
Is ^this^ what you’re talking about? I don’t see an argument here that I haven’t addressed. But I’ll try again.
I pointed out the difference between radical skepticism about the external world and moral skepticism, and how the respective skepticisms are different. I pointed out that science gives us warranted belief about the external world, and that those who disagree with us on our terms are unwarranted. I didn’t just say *that* they were unwarranted, but I explained that the most warranted belief is one in an external world that behaves regularly, such that we can understand it better through a systematic study (science). Catholic epistemologies, from the sound of it, don’t even adopt the same goal, so I have no reason to think it can uncover facts that science does, or as well, at least. You don’t have to agree, but you didn’t even respond. I guess I should add that if Catholic Epistemology says that truth isn’t important, then we’re having a moral dispute, and that in this case we don’t actually have any knock down argument that should sway those that adopt Catholic Epistemology. I prefer truth for its own sake, and I enjoy technological progress and medical science and the rest. So I’m relieved the social momentum is on my side about this. I would suggest that you get clear on whether you mean for Catholic Epistemologies to be a challenge to science on the terms of finding truth, and finding it no matter what it says about god and the like, or on the other hand if it’s simply something that devalues the truth we value in science. If it’s the former, (a challenge to science on the turf of finding truth) the question is easy: science wins. If it’s the latter, (a challenge to the idea that we should pursue truth aside from the constraints of religion) then we’ve got a Mexican Standoff.
I also pointed out that you need to say something more than that my contentions make “well-being” a “meaningless fucking term.” What we want to say to rival conceptions is that they’re expressing conceptions that are bad, not just different from ours. There’s a difference between saying, “It is morally praiseworthy to kill a woman who has been raped” on the one hand, and “It is morally praiseworthy to hy6m**9bernap” on the other. If we say the latter makes well-being meaningless, we haven’t said anything about the morality of meaninglessness (whether worldviews get to escape our judgment if they value radically different things). If we say the former is immoral, and all that means is that our worldview finds it immoral, fine. But when we go further and we say that such assessments are not merely quirks of our provincial outlook, but instead that they’re (honor killers) wrong to prefer what they do, then we’ve got a big job on our hands.
Furthermore, if your summary is simply that conscious states are a prerequisite for morality, then so what? People apparently get *some* satisfaction out of their actions, even when those actions are deplorable from our point of view. The fact that I’ve said that already leads me to believe that your statement that I wasn’t dealing with the argument is hasty.
As for Mill saying the proof I’m looking for doesn’t exist, I agree! I already said that we can’t assume that there’s a good answer that would justify a realist view of morality. If you agree that such proof can’t and doesn’t exist, then what business do you have defending (even provisionally) the thesis of TML? I’ve already explained that radical skepticism about the external world is unwarranted, but not in the same boat as moral skepticism. Now, if you’re assuming that science, at its core, is justified, then stop making that assumption. It’s not. Nor is any field. Thankfully, we don’t need justification to get the really cool benefits. HOWEVER, moral arguments that involve extremely different views, and particularly meta-ethical arguments, are not about comparing really cool benefits, it’s more like whether there is a fact of the matter that can settle radical disagreement over what to value.
As for the deductive process, that doesn’t impress me. “It is right to exterminate the Jews. Therefore let’s round them up and put them in gas chambers.” How does that strike you?
(Now, I’m not accusing you of approving of such a thing, and I regret that I even have to say that. But it appears that there are people who fall victim to the very rhetorical effect of moral obviousness that I was so concerned about at first, and I’m still not saying Harris argues from the form “this is obvious to me, therefore it’s correct).
So, back to the actual argument. Just about anything can be preserved through a deductive process. But surely you know that, so I don’t expect you to think of that as a important issue. Meaning, I don’t expect that we’ll have to argue over whether argument is made moral (or more moral) from validly proceeding through a chain of reasoning, logically leading back to a premise, since all sorts of things we find horrible could pull that off.
If there’s anything I get a response to , it’s this. Which is why I cleaned it up. I’m sure it’s still not a paragon of neatness, but it’s close enough I think.
He may be better as an athlete relative to some standard, and the standard may not even be arbitrary, given what makes people interested in athletes in the first place. He really is, let’s say, more effective/efficient for our athlete-purposes. But “better” is still getting tracked backed to what actually interests us.
Russell Blackford,
Well put. I’m not sure if Michael Jordan could twirl hangers as well as me. My good friend definitely has him beat in the weight room. When it come to vertical leap, MJ wins hands down. When we get specific, we can measure one another. I do think a kind of modest “evaluative realism” might be warranted, because to say Michael Jordan is a better basketball player that Isiah Thomas requires a kind of holistic thinking, not reducible to PPG or championships won or some such clear measure. Perhaps the reason that I believe Michael Jordan is a better basketball player than Isiah Thomas can be justified empirically, but the original judgment does seem to take in a lot of subtle information very quickly.
Anyway, if I’m right or wrong about that is neither here nor there, the important thing is that even if a modest evaluative realism goes through, that doesn’t getchya to moral realism. I’m sure I’m preaching to the choir, but it’s important nonetheless, as I’m sure you would agree.
Mackie says
“… there are certain kinds of value statements which undoubtedly can be true or false, even if, in the sense I intend, there are no objective values. Evaluations of many sorts are commonly made in relation to agreed and assumed standards. The classing of wool, the grading of apples, the awarding or prizes at sheepdog trails, flower shows, skating and …”
I think you get the point. He goes on
“Given any sufficiently determinate standards, it will be an objective issue, a matter of truth and falsehood, how well, any particular specimen measures up to those standards.”
What a guy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._L._Mackie
Wait, you’re Australian, right? I really am preaching to the choir on Mackie then I suppose.
Paul W., thank you very much for your clear and insightful posts. Following the TML debate on various blogs, I have been developing ideas virtually identical with yours, and you have spelt them out better than I probably could have.
Write that book man! I don’t care how long it is, I want to see the debate advance. Or at least I hope that, when Harris will come around and write “Letter to a morally skeptic nation”, he will improve on his thesis by incorporating at least the following items you have mentioned:
– Better cash in on the empirical fact that most if not all moral systems, when pushed, ultimately find justification in common well-being; and that those systems (or individuals) that do not, simply don’t care about morality as is generally understood (insert here linguistic clarification along your lines).
– Actually spell out precisely *why* the Talibans are wrong, pretty much in the way you have dealt with the city-dwelling bedouin.
– Clarify the “common” part of the “common well-being”, by having a good look at Singer’s increasing circle of morality.
Oh, and Russell, write your book too, to keep us under pressure :-)
With some relatively unimportant caveats, I have to say that Paul W. has defended the position I would have taken.
I am a consequentialist and largely agree with some of the programs/ideas espoused by Sam Harris. I just don’t think that he’s said quite enough for someone who is interested in a more rigorous analysis of the foundations of ethics.
Seriously, we have to make sure we’re actually discussing the thesis Harris has presented. Not just the sensible (and somewhat banal) things he sometimes says. His thesis can sometimes *sound* reasonable, and sometimes he runs smack into philosophical controversy and right out of his philosophical depth. So we have two big threads running through this topic:
A) The popular presentation, subtitle of his book, and statements in TML about what he’s up to is more akin to going into areas that he’s not familiar with (on account of the fact that he’s avoided the insights, not just the jargon, of the literature of moral philosophy and meta-ethics).
B) Science can teach us a great deal about the states of affairs that we have deemed “well-being,” (how to cultivate them, what to do to get them, etc.).
The issues The Moral Landscape mainly involve are in the area of A, and only secondarily in the area of B. If B is the lasting legacy, fine, but one shouldn’t get to kick up a bunch of attention with A, only to have everyone approvingly latch onto B.
J. Jeffers (#114) – I think the answer to your questions is what I said in this comment on the other thread:
The short version of that is: any notion of values is predicated on conscious creaures and changes in their experiences; given that, a worst possible world would be for those creatures to die quickly and in agony, if ‘bad’ has any meaning at all; since any move away from the ‘worst possible world’ scenario must be traceable in principle in brain states of conscious creatures, it follows that such moves become scientific questions.
That, anyway, is the clearest version of Harris’s basic argument I can come up with. This would leave the question of whether we should expect our scientific investigations of moving up the moral landscape of producing compelling answers, and I think the health analogy suggests that this is plausible.
Some related observations:
a) The decision whether to eat broccoli or brussels sprouts, or which movie to watch, is (usually) a question of personal preference, since it involves only me. They can only become moral questions to the degree that other people’s affairs are involved.
b) The question of a metric for said degree is more straightforward than most critics believe, I think. It is a question, I would suggest, such as whether this and that species are both members of a specific clade. No amount of data alone could settle the question, i.e. we cannot measure relatedness directly; arguments will have to be brought to bear on the data, and those will always be more or less convincing. This would mean that there will be many cases where we simply cannot make very confident decisions, even though we are undoubtedly using science; on the other hand, we will still be able to say, similar to the ‘worst possible world’, that some interpretation is definitely wrong, because it directly conflicts with data, logic, or lots of previously confirmed knowledge.
c) I do not see that Harris has said or written anywhere that he has reinvented morality, or even that he suggested that his ideas would lead to radically different outcomes. That is not the point. His point is that he thinks we can find a more solid foundation for our morals in science. Because that would do two things: it would produce the most compelling interpretations humans can produce; and it would necessarily oblige those talking about morals to ground their conversation in publicly available evidence and legitimate arguments, as well as to change their mind if predicted outcomes do not turn out to be true.
As far as all this goes, I think it would be an unmitigated good thing for conversations about morals. The least we should be able to say is, ‘Look, this is the most coherent thing we can come up with and we have been rationally convinced to use it for the time being; but if (and only if) you can offer a model that can rationally convince us to come closer to our common goal of morality, we’d be willing to use that instead.’ I’d like that.
Jason:
I think you’re partly missing the main point about natural kinds, and getting hung up on the wrong interpretation of “natural.”
The key idea in natural kinds is the application of the “new theory of reference” (a.k.a. the “causal” theory of reference) to category terms.
Most categories don’t have have actual definitions with necessary or sufficient conditions when those categories are first recognized, but we come up with names for all kinds of poorly-understood phenomena—e.g., gold, metal, dog, species, vision, aggression, money, etc.—and we use the terms anyway, often for a very long time, before we have clear enough concepts to come up with very clear dictionary-type definitions. Even then, the definitions are often substantially wrong, but we can still refer to those things correctly using those terms.
The idea is that we encounter something and treat it as a natural phenomenon, observed but not yet understood, whose actual nature is yet to be discovered.
So, for example, people talked about light and vision for thousands of years before anybody had a correct idea of what light is, or what vision is really doing. If they defined either precisely, they got it wrong, and yet it was clear that light—whatever it was—existed and could do certain things, and that vision, however it worked, could take advantage of mysterious nature of light to show you what’s out in the world.
The important thing to notice for our purposes is that how “natural kind” terms work has nothing particularly to do with whether the categories they refer to involve humans, or human activities, interests and values—we can even talk about human nature, or the nature of values, or the consequent nature of sports, as “natural kinds,” even if they involve artifice.
The crucial idea is that the actual nature of such a kind is an empirical question. We don’t start out with a priori definitions, but with crude, tentative descriptions presumed to roughly pick out categories of actual things in the world, and only later figure out what they really are. It’s okay if those “natural kinds” involve human activities and interests, so long as whatever you’re studying has a coherent structure that you can discover. It works in the social sciences as well as in the “natural” sciences, because it’s all part of “nature” in the relevant (very broad) sense.
It’s what we normally do in the sciences, including the social sciences. For example, market economies are all about human activities and human valuing, and are in that sense entirely artificial, not natural. That doesn’t mean that we can’t discover the nature of market economies, with laws of supply and demand, etc., and discover further real phenomena like market failures. It also doesn’t mean that we can’t make objective statements about market phenomena, despite their being all about values, and our being enmeshed in them ourselves.
Talking about things involving humans and values is tricky, but that doesn’t prevent us from taking a natural kinds approach to them.
I disagree, I think, and I brought up the (distinct) issues of fuzzy and cluster concepts to make it clearer how things can get complicated.
Consider the idea of species in evolutionary biology. There turns out to be no single generally useful definition of species that applies to all different kinds of life. A common criterion for being of the same species is the ability to of population A to interbreed with population B and produce fertile offspring, but it doesn’t make sense to apply that criterion to species that reproduce by something like cloning—e.g., bacteria or parthenogenic lizards. Even for sexually-reproducing species, the concept is intrinsically fuzzy, admitting of degrees. For example, you may have some individuals in population A that can interbreed successfully with a few individuals of population B, and that may or may not matter in further speciation—it’s possible but unlikely that the populations could interbreed enough to rejoin and clearly be of the “same species” by the simple criterion. You also find ring species, where various sub-populations can interbreed with other sub-populations, but that relation is not transitive. (They’re prototypically arrayed in a ring around a large mountain—hence the name—with each subpopulation able to interbreed with the subpopulations on either side of it, but not able to breed with the subpopulations diametrically across the mountain.)
(E.g., A’s can breed with B’s, and B’s can breed with C’s, and C’s can breed with D’s, and D’s can breed with A’s, but A’s can’t breed with C’s. You could say that A’s are of the same species as B’s or D’s, or that B’s and D’s are of the same species as C’s—by the simple criterion—but they’re clearly not all of the same species by that criterion.)
What you end up with is a cluster of distinct species concepts, applicable to different kinds of things, and each with more or less fuzzy boundaries.
I consider that a “natural kind” in the most useful, broad sense. Species are natural phenomena we observed, called “species,” and later discovered what’s really going on with them—and it turned out to be complicated.
That doesn’t make the word “species” useless or hopelessly subjective. Despite all the problems with the term due to the complexities of real species, I can still say many objectively true things about species. The fact that there are funny cases where we can draw species boundaries in different ways does not mean that there are not absolutely clear cases, as well, and a vast number of true things we can say.
I am of a different species than my dog. I am of the same species as my wife. She is of a different species than the bacteria in her gut. The bacteria in her gut are of different species than the grasses on our front lawn, and there are several of those too, all different.
None of that is subjective or a matter of opinion. If you understand what species are, you know they’re all true.
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Biological species are an important example of categories, for a couple of reasons. One is just that they’ve been tremendously important in philosophy for thousands of years—e.g., both Plato’s Idealism and Aristotle’s taxonomy of causes were largely motivated by the obvious existence of biological species. For thousands of years before Plato and Aristotle, people had noticed that biological individuals tend to come in discrete kinds, but with variations within a kind, been mystified, and told various bogus stories as to why.
Even Plato and Aristotle got it almost completely wrong, when they came along, and so did everybody else for another two thousand years, until Darwin.
The basic conceptual/definitional errors about species let to many, many concrete mistakes—e.g., thinking that superficially varying varieties were distinct species, or that superficially similar species were closely related. (E.g., New vs. Old world monkeys, vultures, or raptors.)
And yet we don’t take an Error Theoretic approach to species.
We don’t decide that people have been so confused about what it means to be “of the same species,” and had such different opiniions about them, and been so consistently wrong no matter what their position, that the term “has no objective meaning,” and we “can’t make objective statements about species.”
If you think in terms of actual definitions, it’s hard to imagine a more hopeless, unsalvageable category concept than “species,” starting from an ancient, prescientific zoo of concepts. Almost nothing anybody thought about species before Darwin was right, beyond the initial, very superficial, pedestrian observation that biological entities often seem to come more or less in kinds of some sort. Beyond that, people got it thoroughly, variously, and hopelessly wrong for (presumably) tens of thousands of years—almost all of human history and prehistory.
And typically, the species concepts people had were thoroughly polluted with religious dogma and/or what we’d now recognize as unanalyzed supernaturalism. (E.g., The Genesis unto-their-kinds bit, or Aristotle’s apparently irreducibly teleological “final causation.”) The general explanations for species were typically god did it or just it’s magic.
And yet we still talk about species, as though the term made sense—and even as though, in a general way, it always made some kind of sense.
Which it did.
The term “species” illustrates something very important for our purposes about the New/causal theory of reference: words are attached fairly directly to observed things, not to particular concepts of those things.
All along we’ve been able to refer to gold, and water, and species because so-called “definitions” are secondary at best. For most purposes, we don’t even need clear definitions, because we have real observed things to talk about. The definitions can even be almost entirely wrong, for thousands of years, but that doesn’t prevent us from successfully referring to the real things that they quite incorrectly describe, and saying at least some true things about them.
The term “gold” always really just meant this particular stuff that we’ve encountered and named gold, whatever it really turns out to be, and even if some if turns out to actually be something else. For most purposes it didn’t matter if people thought that gold was a particular compound of elemental Earth and Fire, with a smidgen of Water for ductility. Gold was gold.
Likewise, “species” really just meant these biological kinds we seem to observe, and call species, whatever the heck they really turn out to be, and even if some of them turn out not to really be that.
That is the normal way that words work, when people refer to things that they don’t really understand, and especially things that nobody really understands. Whether they realize it or not, people are extremely flexible about “redefining” terms to fit the facts, and instinctively realize that the referred-to phenomena “define themselves.”
The correct “description” of the thing is embodied in the thing itself, and the Book of Nature is the ultimate dictionary. If you really want to know what gold is, you have to get some gold and figure out what it really is. And if you want to know what species are, you have to get some species and figure out what they really are, as Darwin did.
Here’s another example: “human being.” What is a human being, and what makes a particular human being the particular human being they are? For thousands of years, most people have assumed it was a matter of having a soul of a certain sort, distinct from the material body and not just a function of it—and that souls are basically irreducibly teleological, i.e., magic. They can just do that being-a-person thing, and the being-a-particular-person thing too.
We now know scientifically that that’s extremely improbable. It seems quite evident that we don’t have souls in anything close to that sense.
Yet we don’t adopt an Error Theory about human beings either—we don’t stick to the almost universally accepted definition and say, “it turns out human beings don’t really exist, or don’t objectively exist, and we’re all just evolved biological robots. Go figure.”
We don’t do that because that is just not how words work. Words—especially important words—generally don’t have real definitions at all, at least not until very late in the game. Most words refer to real things in the world, and the “definitions” are just heuristic, operational descriptions to help pick out the real things in the world, whose actual specific nature is as yet unknown.
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Given that, I have to wonder why anybody would think we should treat a word like “wrong” or “immoral” basically differently than we do words like gold, dog, species, market economy, or human being.
We almost never fix the referents of such words based on definitions—we always try to fix them based on observed examples. Whatever those things actually are, to the extent we can make sense of that, the definition is revised to fit the category, not the other way around.
Why shouldn’t we treat morality the same way—assuming, as we almost invariably do, than when people refer to morality or immorality, they’re referring to something real, with at least a few clear examples?
As I understand Harris, that’s the approach he’s taking when he talks about saying that Taliban kooks throwing acid on girls are doing something morally wrong, and I think he’s right to do so.
In general, when we try to determine what a kind is, we don’t hew to definitions. We pick some seemingly clear examples, and try to tease out what they actually have in common.
We don’t abandon the term “species” just because our definitions turn out to be messed up. We pick a few seemingly clear examples, like dogs and cats and horses, and try to figure out what they really are an go from there.
Likewise, we don’t abandon the term “human being” when it turns out we don’t have magical souls that make us us—we take a few seemingly clear examples, like you and me, and work from there in trying to figure out what “human being” could really mean.
When Harris brings up vivid examples like acid-throwing vigilantes, he’s not just appealing to our emotions.
He is doing exactly what we normally do in trying to fix the referent of a poorly-understood category term.
Harris is applying the causal theory of reference to the term wrong, in the usual way that scientists try to determine the proper referents of terms, and arguing that, like “species” or human,” the term can be salvaged in the normal way: the word is so strongly attached to certain exemplars that it would be silly to say that the phenomenon doesn’t exist, or isn’t real, or isn’t objective; it’s just a concept, like many others, that needs to be suitably refined in light of the real-world phenomena it refers to.
He’s doing the same basic thing anybody would do if people were arguing that since we don’t have souls, actual human beings don’t exist—he’d point to some clear examples, such as himself and the reader, and say we should work from there, not abandon the term.
That’s not just an appeal to emotion—it’s pointing out that violence is being done to the plain, referential sense of a word, based on some bogus “definition.”
I think he’s right. When push comes to shove, people don’t care as much about definitions of morality as they do about certain clear examples—e.g., that whatever else is true about morality, that has to count as doing wrong.
That’s not just an “appeal to emotion”—it is a justified appeal to common sense. Common sense is not wrong about that; referential terms really do work that way, and people who think definitions are primary are the ones who are wrong.
IMO, to say that it’s a matter of opinion whether gratuitously grievously harming somebody is wrong is like saying that it’s a matter of opinion whether I’m a human being. Most people have some seriously erroneous ideas about morality, but that doesn’t mean that there aren’t any good examples, any more than their seriously erroneous ideas about what constitutes a human being means there aren’t any good examples of those.
Paul,
But you haven’t answered the question. By what definition of “natural kind” do you allow sports, money, and games to enter as members of the set?
Your answer suggests that, for you, “natural kind” just means “natural phenomenon.” But that’s not how philosophers use the phrase. You’re not talking about natural kinds. You’re just talking about natural phenomena.
If I (or anybody else) were arguing that morality was unnatural, or supernatural, then your (unnecessarily) lengthy post would be relevant. But we’re not.
By the way, it is a matter of some debate in biology whether all species are natural kinds. Some species may be, while others may not be. The fact that we can talk about species scientifically does not mean that every species we identify is a natural kind. Not in the relevant philosophical sense which, again, doesn’t seem to be the one you have in mind.
Another word on the health analogy and the metric problem in observation b) above (#121). Sean Carroll, for example, has made the point that we cannot measure ‘health’ directly and that this somehow makes it unscientific:
We also don’t know what units of relatedness of species are, we cannot directly measure the factitiousness (is that a word?) of a proposition, and we cannot simply measure the truth of a theory, such as evolution. If that is an argument against the scientific status of a discipline, then it applies just as much to biology and physics. Whatever we measure and ascertain experimentally, we have to then relate argumentatively to a concept (such as ‘truth’ or ‘health’) that is not itself measurable or derivable experimentally.
And I would even contest Carroll’s assertion that the first step, the making of a concept, “is not science”. On the contrary, it is very much part of science, as Bronowski again says: “Science is the creation of concepts and their exploration in the facts.” (Science and Human Values, 69) On that definition of science—and Bronowski argues extensively for it—Carroll’s complaint simply disappears.
Paul W.,
Forgive me if my question seems naive (I’m not a philosopher, but am just about managing to hold on to the gist of these arguments), but isn’t the problem with equating the term ‘wrong’ with ‘gold’ or ‘human being’ that there is actually a lot of disagreement regarding what exactly the referent is for the former and not so much for the latter? I expect that in ancient times (before we knew what gold was), a Taliban member (say the Taliban existed back then) would always agree with me that ‘gold’ referred to that particular softish, yellow stuff, and we could probably trade the stuff. But we would have many disagreements on what ‘wrong’ referred to. A Taliban man might think that a bit of cleavage was a horribly ‘wrong’, whereas I might apply the term ‘appealing’ (i.e. a positive evaluation) to that particular referent. Similarly, I might think acid-in-face ‘wrong’ whereas he might see it as justice served (or whatever the hell they think) and therefore ‘good’. Furthermore, the more we move to less extreme examples, like abortion for example, it seems to me that there is even greater disagreement about what ‘wrong’ refers to.
One more point, Paul, about how our moral idioms work. You say you can’t imagine why we’d treat words like “immoral” different from words like “gold.” And you say that Harris is just trying to figure out how this moral idiom really works. Well, if that were the case, he’d at least spend some time considering noncognitivism, since that is precisely the point of it: if we investigate how people actually use moral idioms, we find that they seem to be either praising or stigmatizing certain behaviors, usually either challenging or promoting social norms. Moral idioms seem (to me, at least) clearly used to regulate and negotiate behavioral norms according to individual and cultural standards of acceptability. This is why we treat them differently than we treat other words, and why the is/ought distinction is so obvious.
Anyway, while I’m all for a better understanding of how moral idioms work, there is a huge difference between understanding how they work and deciding how we should use them. Even if we grant that well-being is a significant aspect of our moral thinking, it doesn’t mean that moral thinking just is thinking about well-being, and it doesn’t mean that it should be. More importantly, it doesn’t mean that any particular set of values related to well-being are better than another, incompatible set. So I don’t see a coherent defense of Harris on the table. But I implore you, if and when you respond, please try to be a bit more concise.
Me:
Jason:
See my last post for why I think it is entirely reasonable to talk about sports and athlete as natural kinds. If you don’t want to call complicated things without simple necessary and sufficient conditions “natural kinds,” the point still stands—it’s appropriate to apply the causal theory of reference in the usual way to category terms like “sports” as we do to terms like “species” or “market economy.” Definitions can and typically should be radically revised to preserve the actual referents of terms, which do not hinge on detailed definitions.
As for “normative,” I think it’s clear that like “objective” (applied to moral claims), we’re talking about different things, and I’m mainly explaining and defending the sense of “normative” or “objective” that I think is (a) tenable, (b) appropriate, and (c) useful.
I don’t think Harris or I is offering the kind of objective morality or normativity you’re talking about—something that would automagically motivate people to be a better X, just by showing what factually is a better X.
I read Harris as conceding that that’s just not possible—Hume was quite right about that very strong sense of “going from is to ought”—and I certainly think it’s impossible.
That doesn’t mean that there isn’t an interesting and useful sense of something being objectively wrong, whether you care about it or not.
I’ll assume for the moment you buy my argument that sports and athlete are “natural kinds” in the very general sense that I mean, whether or not you agree with that terminology–i.e., they’re categories denoted by fundamentally referential concepts, and whose correct definitions must comport with the fundamental regularities of the actual real-world domain. (In this case being rooted non-arbitrarily in human nature.)
I’m not talking about any specific, arbitrary metrics of athletic prowess. Those are mere operational definitions, which aren’t actually definitions at all. (Operational definitions are clear-cut, fairly arbitrary categories that you use when you don’t have a real definition that clearly reflects the actual structure of the subject domain.) Focusing on such measures misses the point.
One point is that MJ is generally better than me at moving around in space in all the basic ways that help in sports generally. He’s not just good at specific skills required in basketball. He’s also good at baseball and golf and track events, and pretty much any sport he puts his hand to. If you think of any sport that’s clearly a sport, he’s almost certainly better at it than me, or would be pretty quickly if he tried. And if not, it’d probably be because it’s a very peculiar sport in which my general weaknesses become strengths.
I could get through a somewhat smaller hole, if the hole stands very still. Big deal—that is not a generally useful athletic attribute, because there’s nothing about human nature that privileges sports where that’s handy. The emphases on speed, agility, dexterity, cooperative and competitive strategy, etc. are rooted much more directly in the aspects of human nature that make people like sports—and which make sports a recognizable category. If we threw out all the sports we’ve got, and somehow made people forget the concept of sports, and then let people reinvent sports and come up with all new ones, they’d mostly come up with yet more sports where MJ could kick my ass.
I think that’s true, and if it’s true, it’s objectively true. There are certain facts about sports, and underlying facts about why people do and like sports, than ensure that everybody would could always, in any plausible world where there’s a variety of sports, that Michael Jordan is simply a better athlete than me. I think that should be uncontroversially true, or would be if you saw me play a few random sports.
But is it normatively true? Yes, if all “normatively” means is that in a given domain, there are things that count, by the internal logic of that domain, as better or worse.
Clearly, in sports, there is such a logic. It’s largely about competition and doing better than the other person, or at least doing better than you used to do. If you don’t understand that, you don’t understand sports.
“Michael Jordan is a better athlete than Paul W.” is a true and normative statement in the sense that if you care at all who’s a better athlete, for whatever personal reason, you should not point to me; I’m not going to be first pick. It doesn’t matter if you like sports, or just think you could make some money off a bet, or are just curious in an entirely abstract, disinterested way, or hate sports and famous athletes, and want to know who to kill to do the maximal damage to the total athletic abilities of the world. It just doesn’t matter. He’s better than me in the only sense that makes sense, if we’re talking about whose the better athlete at all.
If that’s a weak sense of “normative” and not what you or Russell or Mackie is talking about, that’s absolutely fine by me. I will, however, defend my use of terms like objectively wrong.
I think Harris is doing something similar to what Dennett does with the term “free will”—saying that of course, there’s no “free will” in the strong and apparently incoherent sense necessary for a lot of theology of Sin and theodicy. You can’t have that.
That doesn’t mean that people don’t have free will in a more pedestrian but more useful and important sense—there is a difference between choosing things because you actually prefer them and choosing them because you’re laboring under a delusion, or under duress, or various other factors that change the sense in which you are “free” or “willing.”
I think Dennett is at least partly right about that. The term “free will” has traditionally been used to refer to that general sort of disinction, however poorly understood as well as being used in the sense he things is clearly bogus. It’s arguable whether we do have “free will” because there’s an ambiguity between those senses, but it’s certainly false to say flatly that we don’t have free will.
There’s a natural kind of free will that we do have, and another presumptive natural kind of free will that we apparently do not, because it does not and arguably cannot actually exist.
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I personally think it’s clearer how we should resolve the referent of the (moral) term wrong than how to resolve the referent of “free will.”
I think Harris is right that people’s intuitive commitment to certain clear examples of wrongness is extremely strong, and that there is no way to detach the term and say that it doesn’t really refer to anything.
I’m not just talking about an emotional commitment, and Harris is not just making an emotional appeal, so that people won’t want to give up the lovely term wrong.
That’s not the main issue. The main issue is what people very minimally mean by words like wrong, and whether the concept is flexible enough to be adapted to reality.
Some terms, like “phlogiston” are not. “Phlogiston” was such a specific concept, assumed to solve a certain problem in a very specific way, that we couldn’t find a real referent for it at all. There simply isn’t a substance that does what phlogiston was supposed to do—accumulate and smother animals and fires—or even close. Carbon dioxide accumulates, but doesn’t smother fires, and oxygen depletes, smothering things only by its absence.
I don’t think that the (moral) term “wrong” is like that. I think it’s more like “human being,” which clearly does have a referent even if the truth about what human beings really are is rather shocking.
When push comes to shove, nobody thinks that humans don’t exist, and nobody thinks that gratuitously causing grievous harm isn’t wrong. The referents of those terms are fixed to at least that extent, and the “definitions” have to flex to fit the reality of the phenomena.
Peter,
I think you could have been a great deal more charitable in your review of Pigliucci’s review. Like Russell, I’m rather sympathetic to his review, even if I don’t agree with him on all points. I wouldn’t say it’s deplorable. Dismissive, yes, but not necessarily unfairly so. Anyway, you seem stuck on the health analogy, which Russell has addressed in his most recent ABC News article. (http://www.abc.net.au/religion/articles/2011/02/11/3135861.htm)
My thoughts (more elaborately found here: ) are similar. Health and well-being seem more or less the same. If health is to medicine as well-being is to morality, then morality seems to just be medicine, or perhaps a particular branch of medicine. But that’s not right. Medical science is not morally prescriptive. We can get the best available medical advice, but that is not morally binding. Doctors give medical prescriptions, nor moral prescriptions. How can the science of well-being do anything more than that? All it can do is tell us how our behavior is likely to affect the health/well-being of other people. Whether or not we should do X or Y is beyond the scope of medicine. Surely there is room for rational and informed disagreement about what medical advice we should take, even when that medical advice informs us about how our behavior will affect other people. So I don’t see the health analogy doing any heavy lifting here.
Paul W.,
I’m not sure where our conversation went off the rails, but at some point you just stopped responding. In your last post, you said this:
No, we can’t assume people are referring to something real. And as a matter of fact, Sam Harris takes it upon himself to demonstrate that there is something real that can adjudicate the difference between rival moral systems. So it’s on him to do so. It could very well be that moral justification is just a way for people to impose their preferences on others. It’s easy to conceive of a science of preference, but our moral discourse claims more than that for itself. Whether one preference is intrinsically better than another; that’s the snag. It’s obvious that certain behaviors are more instrumentally suited toward certain brain states. We can be confident that there are regularities in these areas, so that cooperation gives us a certain warm fuzzy that throwing battery acid in little girl’s faces doesn’t . That’s not in dispute. But it’s apparent that the people that throw battery acid in a little girl’s face get some sort of satisfaction from it. And they deem their whole belief system “good.” In order to meet the ambitious goals Harris has set out to acheive, he would have to provide a reason why the Taliban is wrong not to prefer our particular system of moral belief. It’s not enough simply to show that adopting the belief system and habits of the Taliban won’t bring happiness by our lights. No, we have to say that the Taliban is wrong, on some sort of universal level. If no such reasons can be found, then Harris has overestimated what his project can achieve, but perhaps hasn’t noticed.
Well, no. Hilary Putnam, Goeffrey Sayre-McCord, and others have done impressive work in this area (in the process of preparing to write a paper, I’ve read and re-read an impressive summary: http://philosophy.unc.edu/people/faculty/geoffrey-sayre-mccord/on-line-papers/Good_on_Twin_Earth.pdf/view ). Sam Harris has not merely done what they have. He’s gone much further, by his own summary of what he’s up to. We should take him at his word.
The paper I’ve linked to doesn’t claim that we’ve discovered the natural kind for good. That would be an *extremely* ambitious thing to say. The work in natural kinds as related to morality is in a very early and rough stage. Part of the problem is that the meaning of moral propositions goes beyond just, “there are certain behaviors that produce certain brains states” Rather, even after we’ve found the natural kind for “good,” how will we know others are wrong to pursue other kinds (kinds, which admittedly, confer differing brain states, subjective feelings, and political/economic states of affairs).
Simply saying everyone everywhere prefers the same kind of subjective states (and states of affairs) that Harris picks out with his use of the term “well-being,” is very controversial, and far from obviously correct. Our prima facie view, when people throw battery acid in a little girl’s face, should be that they care little for her well-being. Whether that lack of care is based on being misinformed or not isn’t primary because it reduces their mistake to one of factual inaccuracy. But don’t we want to believe that their mistake is moral, and not merely intellectual? Meaning, should they reject the belief system of their culture because it’s bad? Richard Dawkins has claimed that he finds the Abrahamic god unworthy of worship. He’s normally applauded for it. What he’s saying is that he doesn’t necessarily need lack of believe to reject this god, but can reject this god on moral grounds as well.
The idea that people who do horrible things do so just out of mistaken belief renders unsound our moral assessments that people chose to believe in certain systems because of their bigotry, callousness, cowardice, etc in the first place.
Now, even if there is a natural kind that confers what we deem to be good, we still should have a big problem with the core thesis of The Moral Landscape. For what it’s worth, the idea that there is such a natural kind strikes me as very plausible. But, you have to make it intelligible how we can retain our common moral semantics of the moral judgment of others. We have to move beyond instrumental goodness, in other words. See, if we decide that the feeling we get when we feed the hungry, educate the masses, help old ladies across the street, etc, are the feelings we want to pursue, and we want to organize society in that image, then certainly there are facts of the matter that will help us, and science will be invaluable to that venture. But Sam Harris has explicitly said he can show that science can do more than that. But let’s back off that for a minute. Let’s just say you think Harris was embellishing too much on a book tour and that I should just take that with a grain of salt. OK, fine.
Still, it’s on you to make intelligible how we would retain the part of our moral semantics that assert that the Taliban are wrong, not just different from us. In other words, we’ve chosen to pursue certain subjective states and political/economic states of affairs. We feel that our approach is better (I certainly prefer it). But others don’t. They haven’t explicitly signed on for what we call “well-being” and from the evidence, I would say when they kill their daughters for the crime of being the victim of rape, they value something other than what we value. They may think that they will benefit from such treatment, but the idea that a fundamentalist in a third world country would kill someone because they thought the person deserved it, and would go to hell after, is not implausible. So we’re not only talking about a mistaken approach to the value system we pursue, we’re talking about a different value system.
When it comes to category terms like “tiger,” if someone disagrees with it, we can ask what is meant. If the answer is, “by ‘tiger I mean a two-legged hairy creature from North America,” then we know that person is talking about something different, and so there is no disagreement (if the terms are being controlled in such a way as to produce direct disagreement, then we can show which view is the most epistemologically warranted). But in morality we have to be able to talk *to* one another, rather than *past* one another, if we’re going to have direct disagreements. A plausible form of moral relativism (aside from the oft-caricatured form, which admittedly does exist) states that the only point in comparing systems is in if they are using similar enough standards to make the comparison intelligible. We won’t, in our common moral language, tolerate the possibility that belief systems that recommend what we find horrible are simply not comparable to ours. So the option of meaninglessness that Harris (and Peter Beattie) have pursued is a dead end, since we know what horrible things mean. They’re not “unrecognizable,” or “meaningless,” they’re “horrible.”
So if the rival systems are in direct disagreement, then there has to be a fact of the matter that can adjudicate the dispute. Perhaps you think it’s trivial to argue from the perspective of the sociopath, but the reason it’s important is that in the area of scientific fact, we can conjure up the intellectual version of the sociopath: the radical skeptic. And, we can answer the radical skeptic when it comes to facts about the external world (namely, that such skepticism fails the test of the reference to the best explanation, and science passes). In morality, since we don’t give people a pass for having an incomparable belief system (even if this system explicitly values different things than ours) and we judge them, we force direct disagreement. And if rival systems actually value different things at bottom, then part of our moral language is subject to an error theory, namely, a part that Sam Harris sets out to defend on realist grounds.
Now I’m not sure, but you may be open to the possibility that when and if we discover the natural kind for what we believe goodness to be, some of our cherished pieces of moral discourse might not make it into the scientific study. If you did admit that, then you would be telling your own story, not Sam Harris’.
And anyway, I guess since you seem to be one of the most reasonable defenders of Sam Harris’ project around, it makes me sad that you’re not engaging my points. Plus, you’re getting mad props over on this blog: http://metamagician3000.blogspot.com/2011/02/more-on-peter-beatties-thread-at.html so it makes me think if the clear headed and thoughtful Paul W isn’t engaging my points, I’m not making any headway.
Soo… thoughts?
Sorry, meant to include this link in my last post: http://specterofreason.blogspot.com/2011/01/morality-and-health.html
It’s more of my thoughts on morality and health.
Jason:
My impression is that some philosophers do use the term in very much the sense I’m using it, and in any event, I’m talking about something like natural kinds—a more general sense of primarily referential category concept than you seem to think is technically correct to call a “natural kind.”
I don’t think it’s important whether that’s technically a “natural kind”—and I’d even argue that “natural kind” is, of course, a natural kind. If the definition is that limited, it’s wrong. The basic actual phenomenon of how words refer is important, and it’s quite general. It’s how category terms usually work, with your narrower technical sense of “natural kind” as a simple special case.
If you know a better, more generally accepted short term for the more general thing I’m talking about, I’d be interested in knowing it.
Either way, whether I’m using the specific term too broadly or not, I do think I’m using the general concepts correctly and that terminological problem doesn’t ultimately undermine my argument.
I suspect you missed some of the points of some the things I said. The bit about supernaturalism was partly to show just how radically the “definitional” sense of a term can change while the referent is still fixed.
One of the things that some people clearly do care about is whether people’s preconceptions about morality undermine its ability to refer to anything real at all. In particular, some people do think that the widespread idea that morality is intrinsically supernatural and/or of supernatural origin is so profoundly mistaken that it renders the concept non-referential.
I was just showing that we use words like that all the time. If that was a reference-killer, we couldn’t refer to human beings, either.
If you’re not worried about that, that’s cool, but I thought it was worth saying—and I was not suggesting that your sense of “natural” in discussing “natural” kinds was in distinction to supernatural. I didn’t think that at all. That’s a different sense of “natural” than the two I was distinguishing for other purposes.
I’m not sure what you’re saying here about the “relevant” philosophical sense. I think the general sense that I’m talking about is crucial, and is entirely relevant, and includes the narrower sense as a special case.
One reason I bring up the generality and complexity of the idea is that Harris doesn’t, and I think that’s a weakness of his discussion. He sorta makes it sound like morality is a simpler natural kind—in more like the narrow sense that you want—than I think it is. Morality is weirder than a simple natural kind, but I don’t think that’s fatal; the general approach is still right in determining what moral terms can reasonably refer to.
As to species concepts, I think there’s a cluster of natural kinds, some of which are commonly clear-cut, but with some fuzzy cases, and others that are so intrinsically fuzzy that you have to draw arbitrary lines if you want to draw specific lines at all.
The traditional breed-and-produce-fertile-offspring thing is often about right for most sexually reproducing species, but sometimes it’s wrong, e.g. in the case of ring species. Both kinds of species are natural kinds (types of species) of natural kinds (particular species or quasi-species) that we’ve discovered.
Whether or not you want to call any or all of those “natural kinds” in a narrow sense isn’t really important to me. What’s important is the general approach of “carving nature at its joints.” The fact that sometimes nature turns out not to have joints anywhere near where you expected doesn’t mean it’s not the right general approach—you carve at the joints you find, and not where you don’t.
If you take the carving-nature-at-it-joints metaphor seriously—and it has been associated with “natural kinds” since approximately the coining of the latter term—you’d be surprised if you didn’t sometimes get clusters and hierarchies of related concepts, just as you may chop limbs off a carcass, and chop appendages off limbs, etc. at several scales. Nobody said nature was simpler than a carcass. :-)
J. Jeffers:
I’m sorry about that. I really didn’t mean to. I went out of town and have had limited time at a computer, and there were other people here to answer as well. I was hoping that my answers to them would make my position a little clearer for when I get back to you, but maybe it doesn’t.
I should perhaps bail out for a while, because I’m not able to do justice to the subject and everyone else’s comments.
I do realize that I should go read a bunch of metaethics and make sure I understand the terms several of you are throwing around, which I’m not sure I do. (And in particular, I’ve been meaning to catch up on my Putnam, so thanks especially for that link.)
I will endeavor to read and think about what you’ve just said—and revisit what you said before—but right now I have to go deal with other obligations, and it’s probably better if I come back and try again later when I have more time.
Paul,
This looks like a good enough definition of “natural kind”: they are concepts whose correct definition is determined by correspondence to natural (read, non-conceptual) differentiation. I think this is close enough to what philosophers usually mean, too. But in that case, the concepts of “athlete” and “morality” are not natural kinds. If these are family resemblance concepts (and I think they are), then their applications are not correct or incorrect by virtue of some correspondence with non-conceptual differentiations. What makes the use of such terms correct or incorrect is, as Wittgenstein says, a way of life.
Your focus is on what gives our terms meaning. If our moral idioms are meaningful at all, you say, they must refer to naturally distinct entities–even if those entities are actually vague and lack necessary or sufficient conditions. But if they lack necessary and sufficient conditions, then how could we look to nature to determine if our use was correct? And why assume that reference is the end-all-be-all of meaning, anyway? What about performative utterances, like “Stop!” or “No!” Why can’t “That is immoral!” be something like that?
What seems clear enough to me is that concerns about well-being do not exhaust our moral thinking, unless we just define “well-being” to be whatever anybody happens to be concerned about when they are engaged in moral thinking, in which case we’ve said nothing interesting; and, more importantly, that concerns about well-being are not the sort of thing that can be dictated by science. So where does that leave Sam Harris?
Paul W,
Before I step away for the day and try to be productive in some way that will bring tangible benefits (rather than just getting my philosophical rocks off), I want to summarize something:
The problem is, even if there is a natural kind out there for what we label with the letter-sound combination “well-being,” there will still be a mystery around how this natural kind can confer reason-giving, (or at least if it’s not mysterious at that point, it’s on you to explain how that will be the case). No other natural kind that we’ve discovered does this, leading J.L. Mackie to label moral properties “queer” (he goes on that we have no reason to believe in such properties). Now, whether it’s a property or a kind, isn’t crucial. Mackie could, in principle, be open to the argument that what we deem to be good, namely, the states of mind, feelings, economic/social states of affairs we call “well-being” could very well be a complex natural kind. But if that’s all we find, then part of out moral discourse has been left unaccounted for.
With all due respect, it’s incumbent on you to name one other natural kind that comes packed with reason-giving power, or grants the rights to judge unfavorable (in a non-provincial, non-question begging way) those that flout the kind. They’re aren’t any, you see. We make a sound when we find the natural kind “gold,” but it doesn’t compel anyone to believe in it, and it doesn’t grant us the right to judge unfavorable anyone that denies its existence (calling someone inaccurate can be completely justified, now whether it’s morally wrong to be inaccurate, that’s in dispute, and can’t be assumed).
Now, some have tried to make moral realism more modest by denying that moral kinds and/or properties come with reason-giving power, but at the very least what we have to say is that those who aren’t motivated by moral reasons are bad, or morally defective. So I think it should be apparent how moral properties actually demand a lot of us, epistemologically. We have to show that there are such kinds or properties (the kind that grant reason-giving power and/or give us the justification to correctly judge others as *morally* wrong for their moral preferences) before our dismissals of those that flout the kind (sociopaths, sadists, moral skeptics, etc) are forceful. If we do it in the reverse order, we’re question begging.
Now, I’m a lot more sanguine than Jason is about the possibility of finding such natural kinds, but if we only find the natural kind for what we approve of, we haven’t explained why what we approve of gives us the right to judge unfavorably those that flout this natural kind. That’s what anyone who’s made the claims Sam Harris has made needs to be able to explain.
If no such kind can be found, it can still be really really awesome that the natural kind of what we call “well-being” actually can be found, but such a discovery won’t aid a defense of The Moral Landscape. If it does, it can only be a consolation prize, at best.
No problem Paul W. Just to be clear. I accept that there are the natural kinds of great athlete, basketball player, and perhaps even a natural kind of well-being (or, I accept the plausibility of these natural kinds). Which is why, a few posts ago, I allowed for perhaps a modest kind of “evaluative realism.”
But morality comes packed with reason-giving power, and/or grants the right to accurately call others immoral for flouting the natural kind (why is why we must establish the kind *before* we dismiss sociopaths and sadists, to avoid question begging). No other natural kind does anything remotely this, which is why the evaluative natural kinds of “great athlete” or “great basketball player” are more like mere factual descriptions, rather than moral judgments. You may be onto something, but unless it can be made intelligible how a natural kind can do what our moral discourse demands, and what Sam Harris has promised he can provide, then it’s not the project Sam Harris has undertaken, it’s something else.
Again, no problem on the delay. I’m takin’ a break for the day, maybe the weekend, as well..
I guess I shouldn’t too quickly dismiss the possibility that morality could be a natural kind. I certainly agree (as I think everyone does) that natural kinds can be the product of human behavior. Morality, too, is a product of human behavior. But it does seem that the term “morality” is a family resemblance concept. Sure, we might find some natural kind which is sorta close to some of what we call “morality.” I wouldn’t rule out the possibility, but I wouldn’t bank on it, either. In any case, it wouldn’t somehow gain precedence in discussions of right and wrong.
Sorry, just quickly,
If the natural kind of well-being exists but doesn’t confer intrinsic reason giving power and/or grant the right to accurately call those that flout the kind immoral, then a big chuck of our moral discourse hasn’t been accounted for. A chuck Harris sets out to defend. If we give up on refuting those that pursue other kinds, we can make this issue much simpler (but then, we won’t have ammunition to refute moral relativism). Phillipa Foot did something like that in “Morality as a System of Hypothetical Imperatives.”
I don’t think her thesis accounts for our moral judgments of others either, but at least it makes plain the idea that, as Foot eloquently stated “We’re volunteers in the army of virtue, not conscripts.” Again I ultimately don’t think Foot’s contribution is very comforting, but it illuminates what’s mostly in the dark, and I appreciate that.
Now, it’s tempting to make “well-being” more modest than the most robust claims of moral discourse, but remember, Sam Harris seeks to retain those types of claims. It’s a part of his core thesis. If we can refute moral relativism and show that we’re right to dismiss sadists and sociopaths (“right,” in the argument over moral epistemology), then we’ve bitten off the whole chuck of explaining the key meanings involved in moral discourse.
Now, refuting moral relativism is not just an empirical matter of showing that everyone actually does value the same thing. I think that’s prima facie absurd, but even if it could be shown, we’ve got sociopaths, and so we have to show something about them. Even in theory, we can refute the radical skeptic that doubts the external world. We must be able to do the same thing, in theory, with the radical moral skeptic (or sociopath, or sadist, take you pick).
Jason (#129) – As to the first part of your comment:
What I could have been is considerably less charitable, as the rest of Pigliucci’s review is mostly as shoddy as the parts that I quoted. As just one example of that look at the vegetarian analogy, which fails to make any relevant points and pretends to be a coherent argument when at best it is full of holes.
Russell’s review, as I said, focused on substantive points that really need to be thoroughly explored. Pigliucci thinks he pwned Harris because of two endnotes, which he misunderstands, quotes out of context, and saddles with an interpretation that doesn’t make sense even on its own terms. That is what I specifically called deplorable, not the review as such. And the two examples I gave were instances of gross unfairness. If you think I should reconsider that assessment, I’m looking forward to your arguments. A simple counter-assertion, however, is not particularly helpful if you want to have a discussion.
So if the view here seems to be that science has no basis to go on in determining moral values, exactly how does this justify the use of religion to do so? Even if it were true that every single moral question that we could ask ourselves was impossible to answer in terms of it’s effects on human potential, would it still make sense to prefer a system of knowledge based on a proven track record of approaching truth rather than one wholly unconcerned with truth. And of course it is not the case that it is impossible to have some idea of what is moral. We can start from one side of a scale such as intentionally injecting every baby born with a certain strain of e-coli that makes them bleed to death from every poor in their body for starters. Could be consistent with any definition of morality based based on a rational, scientific or empirical methods? On the other hand it could certainly be consistent with a particular religious belief. Yes, many questions of morality are difficult to answer, some may very well be impossible, but this does not mean they all are, or that it is better to simply make up our morality out of primitive myth or ancient fantasies. This is the main point of Harris’ book, In fact it’s all he’s really saying.
I should begin editing before posting but I have no patience to reread what I most definitely already know ;)
Eh?! Has anyone said it does? Not that I’ve seen, and I certainly haven’t. Harris is not the only alternative to religious morality, to put it absurdly mildly.
One reason I find the Harris book so annoying is that he frequently seems to think there are no secular moral philosophers, as I said above somewhere, but as I also said there somewhere, that can’t possibly be right – he’s read some secular moral philosophers. He sometimes writes as if he’s the only alternative to religious morality, but he isn’t.
Mark Beronte,
Moral skepticism is one of the challenges Harris is facing. Religious morality is not the only challenge, or the main challenge. True enough, accepting moral skepticism will result in some lost rhetorical oomph that the religious will never subject themselves to. But if that’s the most warranted position, then that’s the view people who care most about truth should adopt, damn the consequences.
And no, the main point of Harris’ book is not that we can’t make up our morality out of primitive myth or ancient fantasies. Simon Blackburn would agree with that. J.L. Mackie would agree with that. Blackburn is on record for disagreeing with Harris’ core thesis. And Mackie certainly would disagree with Harris as well, if he were alive, since he’s one of the most famous moral skeptics ever.
In the fight between academic philosophers and the admirers of The Moral Landscape, it’s the reason-giving power of morality, and/or the judgment giving power (i.e. there’s a fact of the matter that makes it accurate to call others immoral, or so we think) that philosophers keep seizing on. And the replies to theses philosophers’ critiques don’t capture what that means enough to even count as responsive. Harris (and others, like Peter Beattie) want to say, “but that’s what morality means!” But see, morality isn’t the exact same thing as well-being by our lights. People have different conceptions of morality (some think dishonor actually deserves death; we disagree with that morally, it’s not just that we disagree on background facts like whether there’s a god or what not), and others (like sociotpaths) have no conception at all.
What we want to say is that those that have different conceptions (the Taliban) and those without one at all (sociopaths) are wrong to prefer the conception (or lack of a conception) of morality they prefer. But our conception of well-being doesn’t come with that reason-giving power, nor does it give us the justification to judge them unfavorably for preferring their kind of satisfaction over what we label “well-being.” In other words, it’s easy to imagine that scientific study will give us knowledge about how to exercise, what to eat, how to act around people, etc. We’ll be able to discover that our preferences are not completely arbitrary, and that there are physical laws constraining how we can behave if we want to feel happy, as we understand that word. BUT, some people have other preferences. They get pleasure from things we say are bad. It’s much harder to imagine that science can discover something about why what we label “well-being” is *morally better* than the pleasures the hedonist, aesthete, sadist, or sociopath engages in. This is the crux of the is-ought gap.
This is why the thesis Harris presents fails, not because there can be no fact of the matter about what’s more or less healthy by our lights. I doubt very seriously that the Taliban get the same feeling from throwing battery acid in a little girl’s face that I do when I work at a soup kitchen. And I believe there are probably physical laws governing this. But telling others they’re wrong to prefer something other than our system of well-being requires more than discovering these laws or learning how to make our lives better by our standards.
And anyway, even if our conception of well-being is what morality means, linguistically, how about I just bug out of that? May I?
No.
The reason why the answer is “no” is because morality claims for itself the reach to say that I’m wrong for flouting well-being. And where does that authority come from? Not from our conception of well-being, I can tell you that. Well-being simply is what it is. If I don’t prefer well-being, I’m not “well.” But so what? I prefer other things. You have to be able to say my choice is bad, and “bad” doesn’t only mean “disagrees with the secular liberal Western conception of well-being,” even if this conception can be studied scientifically. So you see even if we can study our conception of well-being, and we discover that there are actual laws governing these things, and we come to believe out preferences aren’t arbitrary, it’s on Sam Harris and his defenders to explain how inherent reason-giving (and judgement justifying) power will be revealed in our study of well-being. We have to say more than that those who chose to exist outside our system of well-being are different. That they’re different is clear. We have to be able to say they’re more than not “well” by our standards. They get satisfaction out of what they do. Science won’t be able to show us that they’re wrong and we’re right. It will be able to show us that the hedonist, sociopath, sadist, etc experience different subjective states than we do, but we need more than that.
If, in the course of dealing with these challenges, we say that we don’t need to show that the Taliban (and the sociopaths, etc) are wrong because we’re satisfied with our own conception of well-being, that’s completely acceptable. But the cost of that is that we’ll be admitting that we can’t refute cultures with radically different conceptions of what to prefer. If (mysteriously, in my view) I can’t convince you that such cultures exist, I can probably convince you that sociopaths do.
Now, I’ll be back around in a couple/few days. I’m programing my computer to give an electric shock to anyone that goes to this website before then. ;)
//Eh?! Has anyone said it does? Not that I’ve seen, and I certainly haven’t. Harris is not the only alternative to religious morality, to put it absurdly mildly.//
Harris really has nothing to do with it, it’s science we are talking about, and my point is if science can’t help determine moral values, what can? You say well there is moral philosophy. So tell me exactly how moral philosophers can have something to say about morality and science cannot. After all science is simply philosophy constrained by actual observation and evidence to back it’s postulations.
So let me ask the opinion of those who disagree with TML. Is it your position no human behavior could be said to be immoral, even the putting to death all children upon birth? I understand the concept that at certain levels of reality truth itself can seem unattainable, but this does not change the fact that there are certain objective truths at the level of reality we experience. I think it is the same with morality. Those who want to say it is futile to try to determine what is best for the human potential morally, are not much different than those who would say truth is unattainable so why try to attain it? Science has shown this pedantic claim to be useless and counterproductive in our actual experience, and I believe it will one day do the same to the claim that we can’t possibly have anything useful to ever say about morality.
//Simon Blackburn would agree with that. J.L. Mackie would agree with that. Blackburn is on record for disagreeing with Harris’ core thesis.//
And they are missing the forest for the trees as is so common among philosophers. If not science what is the question. I assume they are Ok with morals simply being made up based on nothing but air. I would trust no one who could not understand that there is no such thing as any moral absolutes at all. If it can be agreed that killing all babies upon birth is counterproductive to human well being, which by definition it would be, then there are certainly other things that could be determined to be so. Everyone should be able to come up with dozens of examples of human behavior that could be reasonably shown to be damaging for humanity as a whole. The fact that the number of these things may be small compared to the number or moral issues that would be much more difficult to answer is irrelevant. Harris is not saying science can easily solve all our moral issues, he is simply saying the prevailing “wisdom” of restraining science to non-moral issues and leaving them to be defined by those who have shown themselves inept at the process, is self evidently immoral by definition.
correction:
I would trust no one who would say there are no such thing as any moral absolutes at all.
Alasdair #126:
“Forgive me if my question seems naive (…), but isn’t the problem with equating the term ‘wrong’ with ‘gold’ or ‘human being’ that there is actually a lot of disagreement regarding what exactly the referent is for the former and not so much for the latter?”
Jason #127:
“Anyway, while I’m all for a better understanding of how moral idioms work, there is a huge difference between understanding how they work and deciding how we should use them. Even if we grant that well-being is a significant aspect of our moral thinking, it doesn’t mean that moral thinking just is thinking about well-being, and it doesn’t mean that it should be. More importantly, it doesn’t mean that any particular set of values related to well-being are better than another, incompatible set. So I don’t see a coherent defense of Harris on the table.”
Jason #130:
“[The Talibans] haven’t explicitly signed on for what we call “well-being” and from the evidence, I would say when they kill their daughters for the crime of being the victim of rape, they value something other than what we value. They may think that they will benefit from such treatment, but the idea that a fundamentalist in a third world country would kill someone because they thought the person deserved it, and would go to hell after, is not implausible. So we’re not only talking about a mistaken approach to the value system we pursue, we’re talking about a different value system.”
*
The Talibans’ values certainly differ from ours, in the obvious sense that they certainly value honor or deference to God more then they do the lives of little girls, for example. But why do they think that they are morally right in so doing, and why do we think they’re not? For that matter, why do we name their stand on such matters a “moral position”?
Harris argues quite convincingly that, deep down, anybody’s moral position is grounded on a belief of what would be the best course of action, in view of the common well-being. If you really think that to follow the harsh dictates of your sternly just God will guarantee an eternity in paradise, then your actions will reflect this belief, and it will be your moral duty to implement those dictates in the life of as many people as possible. Even if they are factually wrong and logically confused, the Talibans (the non-sociopaths among them, at least) really do believe they are doing the good thing, and that it will ultimately be for the best.
They will probably not say so explicitly, because their language is couched in religious jargon that wants God as the ultimate justification for anything, but this at least is a factual claim that can be tested: We just have to take a good look at how religious extremists think, and then we would either get a refutation of Harris’ thesis — that deep down, common well-being is the ultimate justification for any moral position actually held in the real world — or a corroboration of it.
I think that current knowledge of such matters lies firmly on Harris’ side (for instance, on what makes suicide bombers tick). Thus, I think he is factually correct that the core of what people actually and ultimately refer to, when using notions such as right and wrong and moral, is some (possibly mistaken) conception of what conduct would have us collectively flourish, in the broadest terms.
If fact, I think his position is even stronger than this. I claim that, given the sociological and psychological evidence, **the onus is on Harris’ critics** to provide an alternative definition of morality to his, that would better capture its natural kind (in Paul W.’s sense), at least the least common denominator identified by Harris (and others). At this point of the debate it is also the critics’ onus to show that there is *no* such common denominator, in other words that moral terms have no real referent, if that’s the position they hold.
Just to be safe: he’s *not* claiming that what people consciously think about when they go in “moral mode” is the common well-being of all conscious creatures. Concerns of purity, respect of authority and tradition, honor, etc are often right up there with explicit well-being of others — and which others? traditionally, only those of a given inner moral circle, those outside of it being “expendable” (because, e.g., soulless: they do not *really* suffer, because they only appear to be human; this view is supported by the historically expanding moral circle, which steadily grew as commerce and migrations got peoples to know each other better and realize that they’re not so alien after all). No, moral thinking, as a natural phenomenon, is a rather complex fruit of our evolutionary past and our cultural milieu, and this is reflected in the variety of moral systems, and in the disagreements Alasdair has mentioned. But, when you look deep down for the justifications that people *actually give* for their moral views, the collective flourishing of your social group is what you will generally find.
As I understand Harris (and I fully agree with him on this), he’s basically only claiming that common well-being of conscious creatures is the ultimate least common denominator of moral concerns, as they appear in the real world, and that such questions can be decided by facts and belong to science in the broad sense. Moreover, in trying to build a common global civilization we should really try to at least agree on what are our core shared values, so that we may work on them together — and he identifies such a moral core. (Thus the niceties of finding perfect definitions of well-being or morality — if possible at all, which they are not in the sense many would have, unless we introduce weird double-standards in our ontology and epistemology — are later and lesser concerns.)
Peter,
What you called “deplorable” were Pigliucci’s comment about people getting their heads examined and his response to Harris’ dismissal of much of the vast literature on meta-ethics. I think, in the first case, his comment could be taken as somewhat tongue in cheek. You don’t have any problem, for example, saying that Harris was probably half-joking when he said that terms like “noncognitivism” add to the amount of boredom in the universe. You don’t call <i>that</i> deplorable, even though “your argument is boring, therefore I can ignore you” is a ridiculous argument by any standard. Why not show the same charity when dealing with Pigliucci’s review?
As for the second point, I think Pigliucci is pretty much right: Harris has avoided dealing with not just the language, but also some of the most prevalent concepts, in meta-ethics. As Jollymore put it,
Source: http://bnreview.barnesandnoble.com/t5/Reviews-Essays/The-Moral-Landscape/ba-p/3477
Maybe Pigliucci didn’t make the point as clearly or persuasively as Jollymore, but I think his point was pretty much the same. You might disagree with it, but I wouldn’t call it deplorable.
Mark,
No, not me. If you read, for example, my post #87, I think that should be clear.
Ivo,
Post #130 was J. Jeffers, not me.
You say,
I don’t think Harris has presented a valid argument, let alone a convincing one. It’s really just obvious that what we think of as “right” and “wrong” is based on values that were not arrived at through assessments of their consequences on general well-being, but rather through emotional development. When we regard actions as moral or immoral, we are acting on values learned, for the most part, before we could even wonder about common well-being. Of course, when we apply those values, we often do have concern for the well-being of others. I don’t doubt that concerns for well-being play a large, perhaps even enormous, role in our moral thinking. But they don’t always play such a role. Deontologists, for example, completely reject such types of moral thinking. Also, as my own and other thought experiments suggest, we have strong moral reactions to certain types of actions, regardless of whether or not they cause more suffering in the universe.
@Ivo
So those who say it’s more complex than that, that Harris’ argument is flawed, that Harris hasn’t established why wellbeing is the basis of morality should shut up unless and until they have answered the question themselves? That’s not rational or reasonable, when the perfectly acceptable position of – we don’t know – is available. Science would break down if every critic had to provide a fully fledged alternative system when peer reviewing.
I suggest that you should be seized, brought to a hospital and all your blood and organs removed and donated to those waiting for transplants and blood donations. If we check compatability in advance we can have them on the spot, so there’s a good chance of success. So that’s blind people, those with failing hearts etc whose lives are improved, even saved. Overall well-being is improved. We’ll minimise any negative effects by keeping the whole thing secret.
Overall wellbeing is maximised, so that’s moral, right? If not, why not?
Ah, but the “if only it were” referred to the system of morality. I’d argue your reaction would be, not because you simply have a preference for a society which values women and men equally but because you think those that don’t are unfair. It’s your sense of justice that is outraged, your sense of what is right, your sense of morality.
It would be fantastic if you could do a study, display the results and everyone would say, ah, of course, *that’s* what’s moral. But, at the moment at least, there’s no sign that’s the case.
Doesn’t it come to this? If Harris is simply saying that we should have accurate facts when making moral judgements and that science is the best way to get those facts, then this is uncontroversial – my undergrad Introduction to Ethics said as much. If he’s saying morality is based on maximum wellbeing, he’s saying no more than Bentham or Mill or Singer.
If he’s saying he can demonstrate that morality is based on common wellbeing or that science can demonstrate this, he is saying something new. However that’s the part that most critics above have the issue with – Harris doesn’t appear to have established this.
Discussion about religion or the need to have facts is beside the point. Is Harris aiming to demonstrate something new, and if he does, has he succeeded?
Cathyby,
True, our rejection of sexism is pretty clearly based on views about fairness, but isn’t it still ultimately a matter of preferences? The word “sexist” implies unfair treatment with respect to sex. So, what I’m saying, when I identify my moral views on sexism as being a matter of preference, is that I prefer certain sorts of fair treatment when it comes to sex. It is about fairness. That’s my preference.
@Jason
But don’t we find we argue sexism is morally wrong? In which case it’s as much a preference as any other moral statement.
J. Jeffers (#143) – “Blackburn is on record for disagreeing with Harris’ core thesis.”
I have also asked Ophelia this somewhere upstream: is there anything specific in writing that you are referring to? Because if this comment is directed at Blackburn’s Great Debate performance, I’ll say again that that was extremely disappointing in its shallowness.
Cathyby, Yes, I think we agree. I thought you were saying that it’s not just a matter of preference, because it’s a matter of fairness. It is both a matter of preference and a matter of fairness.
I should note that I think the word “preference” is perhaps doing more work than it should, but it’s convenient.
Jason (#149) – “What you called “deplorable” were Pigliucci’s comment about people getting their heads examined and his response to Harris’ dismissal of much of the vast literature on meta-ethics. I think, in the first case, his comment could be taken as somewhat tongue in cheek. You don’t have any problem, for example, saying that Harris was probably half-joking when he said that terms like “noncognitivism” add to the amount of boredom in the universe. You don’t call that deplorable, even though “your argument is boring, therefore I can ignore you” is a ridiculous argument by any standard. Why not show the same charity when dealing with Pigliucci’s review?”
On the second point, you are doing the same thing as Pigliucci. Harris does not dismiss much of the literature on meta-ethics. That is simply and obviously false. The note that Pigliucci quotes explicitly says that the occurrence of certain terms would have made TML unnecessarily hard to read for a general audience—and that is the specific reason why Harris left out not meta-ethics as a whole but the jargon. (Which, incidentally, echoes a sentiment expressed by A.C. Grayling: “[C]ontemporary philosophy … has allowed the term ‘academic’ in the phrase ‘it’s only academic’ to mean ‘empty and futile’.” [Among the Dead Cities, 209-10])
That you even pretend to quote Harris with “your argument is boring, therefore I can ignore you”, when he explicitly does not refer to arguments, is more than careless. In a trained professional like Pigliucci, it is my contention that it is unforgivable and ruins the whole text.
As to Pugliucci’s point about getting your head examined, what you write is even more confused. The two cases are almost diametrically opposed: Harris explicitly makes a serious point, only adding a single phrase in order to also make it funny; Pigliucci would have to claim that he was making a joke, and only making it appear to be serious. Now, if you want me to show the same charity, I would have to suppose that Pigliucci was basically serious and only adding something for comical effect. I frankly don’t see the comedy, but even if I did, the point would remain that there was also a serious argument to be adressed. And only that last point was germane to my critique.
Even if you were to argue that the last bit was only a joke, then Pigliucci would have given no argument at all for his contentions. Which, for a trained professional, would be at least as deplorable.
I think you’re wrong, Peter. In fact, I think everybody I’ve read on the subject disagrees with you.
You say Harris was only explaining why he doesn’t want to adopt the academic jargon. That’s simply false. What Harris actually says he is doing is offering a reason for “not engaging more directly with the academic literature on moral philosophy.” He wasn’t just avoiding the jargon, and this is evident in his arguments. It’s also evident in the way he has been promoting the book, and the way he has framed his entire discussion.
You’re bordering on ad hominems when you write,
More than careless? Are you suggesting I’m intentionally misrepresenting Harris? That’s getting a bit personal. And, again, look again at what Harris says. Jollymore’s even provided the quote for you. Harris is explicitly talking about why he is not engaging with the literature. That means he is talking about arguments, and not just jargon.
About the other point, you write:
I don’t see the comedy in Harris’ comment about boredom. Seriously, I think Harris was using a joke to appeal to his intended audience’s negative attitude towards professional philosophy. I am not nearly as ready as you are to forgive the comment. I think Harris might have been half-joking, as you say: which is only to say that he was making a serious point in a humorous fashion. I think Pigliucci was doing the same thing. I don’t think he literally means that people who disagree with him need to get their heads examined. I think he means that there is something seriously wrong with the picture Harris is presenting, and he just chose a humorous (and apt) way of making the point. Sure, Pigliucci could have dealt with the material more. I agree he is a bit dismissive. But I don’t think he’s necessarily being unfair, and I certainly don’t think his review is deplorable.
Cathyby:
That is among the important things that Harris is saying, and one reason he makes a big deal of it is that it really is controversial—maybe not in professional philosophy, but in academia more broadly, including the sciences.
That is a major theme of the book—that a certain kind of relativist and specifically religion-defending nonsense about morality and the scope of science is quite common among people who should know better, including not just scientists, but atheist scientists, and appallingly in position statements by major scientific organizations such as the American Association for the Advancement of Science and the National Academies of Science. Those organizations really do go out of their way to minimize the conflicts between science and religion by saying that science is just about facts, and religion is a “different way of knowing,” and is about values.
Many educated people do in fact say that we can’t judge other people’s moral judgments, at least if they’re from a different culture and their moral ideas are tied to a religion, no matter how factually mistaken their ideas are, and no matter how much those moral judgments and actions hinge on their errors of fact. Many more don’t quite say that, but do basically cede the territory of moral reasoning to religion.
The fact that a lot of this should be obviously false from Ethics 101—and I agree it should—doesn’t mean that Harris should make a big deal about it in a book for a popular audience. Most people who read bestsellers never take even a single philosophy class, much less an ethics course.
A big part of what Harris is saying is obvious to most philosophers, but not to most other people; Harris should have made that clearer.
—
Me:
J. Jeffers:
In terms of whether he succeeds in his entire project—which is really several projects—I agree that he has some serious demonstrating to do. Harris has a lot of plates in the air.
The specific point I was discussing, though, is somewhat separate.
One of Harris’s theses is just that (1) words like “moral” and “wrong” refer to something real. A different point is (2) that the real thing referred to entails at least a certain concern for the well-being of others, even if there’s a lot of others stuff going on. Still further points are that (3) the other stuff turns out to not be very significant in reflective equilibrium—other concerns are, on reflection, mainly instrumental, and justified by the goal of advancing well-being—and (4) well-being is not such a vague term as to be useless in principle or in practice, and either reduces to or at least fairly strongly correlates with something like Benthamite Utility, such that we can often agree, in practical terms, that many courses of action are better than many others.
Right now I think we’re mostly arguing about 1 and 2. 3 and 4 are whole different discussions.
With respect to 1 & 2, I take Harris to be making a roughly “natural kinds” argument about the referents of terms (and I guess, indirectly about what counts as “real”).
—
Unfortunately, Harris screws up his rhetoric about that, enormously, by frequently talking about the fact/value distinction being bogus, as though he could simply erase it, when in fact he’s really conceding the basic fact/value distinction and getting around it with a natural kinds argument that certain basic values inevitably “come with the territory.”
That’s the way I read him, anyway. I think the real argument he’s trying to make is pretty good—I’m buying, for now at least—but what he says about the fact/value distinction being bogus is confusing at best, and guaranteed to get philosophers jumping on him with both feet. (And certainly not entirely wrongly—if he wants people to follow his actual argument for his actual point, he really shouldn’t keep describing it as a different argument for a different point! Major screwup there.)
—
As to the natural kinds argument per se, I’m not sure how to make a tight natural kinds argument about the proper referent of a term, when people’s preconceptions about the referent are clearly often wrong. It’s intrinsically a messy business that comes down to a weird judgment call. You explain your reasoning as well as you can, and then run it up the flagpole and see if people salute.
Consider phlogiston. How do we know phlogiston doesn’t exist?
You might try to salvage the term phlogiston by saying that the phlogiston is real, but “turns out to be” a deficit of something that feeds fires and respiration, rather than an excess of something that inhibits them. Instead of calling oxygen “oxygen,” we could have called it antiphlogiston, the absence of which is what phlogiston turns out to be.
Somebody could have tried to rationalize it that way—and for all I know, somebody did—but the people studying the domain just didn’t buy it. If anybody ran it up the flagpole, I’m sure not many people saluted. And I’m sure there’s a good reason they didn’t—it’s intuitively unsatisfying, and just calling oxygen “oxygen” is simpler and clearer—there’s no sense in naming negative properties if you can name the positive one.
—
I’d say that the natural kinds argument for the referents of moral terms is better than that, but it’s not clear how to decisively show that it’s good enough that we should resolve the references in the general way Harris recommends.
I think we should, but Harris hasn’t helped his case for that by running points 1 and 2 together with points 3 and 4.
IMO that’s important. Harris can be right about the natural kinds approach being basically right, and how it can get around the fact/value distinction, and salvage terms like wrong as at least having referents, without his more specific arguments being right. They might have some ineliminable ambiguity and/or fuzziness, but still mean something “objectively.”
Maybe morality is a messy natural kind (in my very broad sense), and messier than Harris thinks, but he’s right that there’s a natural kind that “morality” refers to, and it’s somewhat more specific than a lot of other people think.
—
For example, suppose that we accept his argument for a certain minimal benign concern for others’ welfare being a necessary feature of morality. (I think I do, but he needs to make his case better.) That doesn’t necessarily make it the dominant feature, to which all other “moral” considerations are subsidiary.
Harris does obviously know this, which is why he argues against Haidt’s idea of two different, incommensurable kinds of morality—the liberal kind with two basic concerns, and the conservative kind with those and three more.
I personally think that Harris is righter than Haidt, and that the other three concerns do mostly reduce, one way or another, to the more basic (and apparently universal) two.
If Haidt is right, then we have a natural kind (in my broad sense) that has at least two significant axes.That’s rather like sports, which has at least a sheer athleticism axis and a competitiveness/strategy axis. What counts as a better sport can depend on whether you take sheer athleticism as more important, or competition as more important, and there is probably no way to objectively settle that. We can make certain objective statements about some sports—e.g., that chess isn’t really a sport, but rugby clearly is—but not others, such as whether javelin throwing is a more of a sport than football, or whether Bruce Jenner was a better athlete than Magic Johnson.
—
Clearly, Harris is arguing that morality isn’t that messy, with different incommensurable basic axes. He wants to show that conservative morality—with seemingly free-floating valuing of things like obedience, irrespective of utility—is in error. He clearly thinks that people who reason that way are generally not in reflective equilibrium, and would reason differently if they knew better. (E.g. if they learned there’s probably not a trusty god to be obedient to, and worked through some thought experiments about moral problems of undue obedience.) I think he’s mostly right, but the issue is hairier than he lets on.
More importantly, there are whole other dimensions of moral reasoning that he doesn’t really touch on, which could lead to ineliminably incommensurable moral judgments, to varying extents and in various ways. Harris doesn’t address those potential problems much at all.
—
He should address that better, but in doing so I think he should also stress that even if he’s quite wrong about how simple a natural kind morality turns out to be (e.g., points 3 and 4), that doesn’t necessarily make him wrong about taking the natural kinds approach, and it doesn’t necessarily prevent our making at least some objective moral statements.
That’s where the Taliban acid-throwers come in.
I think what Harris is trying to do with that example is more than an appeal to emotions. He’s trying to construct an existence proof that there are at least some things that are wrong, in any tenable moral scheme—or if not an existence proof, at least a plausible example of how something could be objectively wrong, given the natural kind of morality he supposes, even if the natural kind is messy, and there are a lot of ineliminably incommensurable valuations of other things, too.
Understood that way, I think it’s at least a pretty good example of the kind of thing he means on which people should clearly agree. (Or if they disagree, should try to disagree clearly about, to show exactly where he goes wrong.)
That example shouldn’t be dismissed it as a mere appeal to emotions. It serves the same kind of function as my example of Michael Jordan being objectively a better athlete than me—to show that even if there are a lot of judgments that we cant make objectively, there are some that we can.
(One reason I came up with the Michael Jordan example is to avoid the appearance of an appeal to emotions, which would obscure the basic philosophical point about natural kinds and fairly specific norms that “come with the territory” of particular domains. If I’d used a clearly moral example, such as Taliban acid-throwers, people wouldn’t know to interpret it that way, because it also would inevitably have a lot of emotional baggage.)
—
A major point about the Taliban acid-throwers is that what they’re doing is wrong, even by their own standards, if they are factual mistaken about their justifications.
There is no culture in the world where throwing disfiguring acid in women’s faces is considered okay, all other things being equal. It’s not something you can do gratuitously, in any culture, without it being considered morally wrong.
The only thing that makes it seem morally acceptable, even good, is that it is believed to be the right thing to do—there has to be some very serious rationale to justify such an act, which would be obviously wrong to almost anybody in any culture, anywhere on the planet.
Importantly for the example, in the absence of such a rationalization, it’s obviously wrong in Taliban culture too. Taliban supporters may justify the act and think it’s right and good to do it, but they would agree that if they’re seriously factually mistaken about their rationale, they are unknowingly seriously in the wrong, morally.
That’s just something that everybody knows, in every culture, except for a very small number of people who are apparently morally defective.
That doesn’t automatically mean that it’s a necessary moral fact in every possible culture, but it does show that morality isn’t as culturally relative as some people claim it is, in any simple sense. The basic structure of morality does not vary that much between cultures, as some people think it does.
Moral universals—whether they’re necessary or contingent—are revealed mainly in patterns of rationalization. Almost any act can be rationalized under certain circumstances in many cultures, but there are many acts that invariably require rationalization, and some acts that are so obviously so wrong that they require very serious and extreme rationalizations.
The argument that Taliban acid throwers are objectively in the wrong isn’t based on an emotional impact in our culture, particularl; it’s not an appeal to emotions in that sense, although that may help people find it interesting. It’s based on the emotional impact and obviousness in every culture, including Taliban culture.
That’s not proof that it reflects a necessary moral universal, but it is cross-cultural evidence consistent with the idea that morality is a natural kind that is at least partly defined by a concern for the welfare of others.
Jason (#160) – You specifically suggested being more charitable. Your interpretation of Harris, however, is the least charitable one that the text will (barely) support.
I was talking specifically about Pigliucci, who based his dismissal of Harris on two particular quotes in TML, not Harris’s talks or other appearances. As I have said enough times now to make it clear, I am not here to defend Harris but to point out glaring deficiencies in a critique of his book.
Also again, he is not dismissive about arguments or terminology of meta-ethics as such, but restricts his critique to those aspects of it whose portrayal he thinks would be unhelpful for his intended audience. And that goes just as well for the part that Jollymore quoted; a restrictive relative clause is just what the name says, especially in a generally very careful writer like Sam Harris.
The comedy, by the way, is actually evidenced by the reaction not just of people who would tend to be dismissive of philosphy in the first place, as you suggest, but by the reaction of two of the professional philosophers at the table of The Great Debate, when Roger Bingham reads that quote. So that’s not really in doubt; in Pigliucci’s case, I have already said that it would not even be able to help his argument, as there would then be none.
As to ad hominems, three things. First, I didn’t make an argument but a statement. Second, I do not suggest that you did anything intentionally, I state that it appears that you didn’t care as much as I think this discussion warrants. And third, the same carelessness is evident in your repeating the false statement that I think Pigliucci’s review was deplorable. If you are sensitive enough (although plainly not particularly charitable) to suspect a personal attack, I would expect you to be able and care enough to make a distinction between two specific arguments in a review and the review itself.
Paul W.,
I don’t think any of us disagree with you on this, and we don’t disagree that if ‘errors of fact’ were corrected among ultra-conservative religious believers, a lot of the barbaric practices, rituals and attitudes that characterize their morality would disappear and the world’s burden of suffering would decrease. And what a valuable book it would be that popularized this empirically demonstrable proposition! But as J. Jeffers said in #120, Sam Harris has not restricted himself to this valuable public service (‘dirty work’ as Daniel Dennett might put it), far from it as it turns out.
Now I won’t speculate on the reasons why he didn’t opt for a more modest, but no less crucial, project, but I will observe that what we’ve ended up with is a book that is not wholly supported by swaths of not unintelligent rhetoricians who actually care very deeply about the subject of morality and who would have popularized his ideas even further had he been more intellectually circumspect (like indeed you have been). The ‘side’ against religious morality is now divided and irritated, and rightfully so given some of the assertions he’s made – and continues to make despite criticism from almost everybody who has any understanding of the metaethical arguments he’s glossed over.
So, for the same reason we praise Sam Harris for popularizing the idea of how science can inform morality (and in doing so improve the well-being of many), I think we should criticize him for exercising the same lack of skepticism for which we regularly criticize those who rely on a God for their moral authority.
It is becoming clearer that the basis of human morality is simply who we are, forged in the fires of evolution. It’s not an accident that every civilization in recorded history has used some form of the golden rule as a foundation on which to build it’s laws. This basic theme has simply been good for our survival. In this light it is easy to see why it so obvious to most modern humans that slavery or murder is immoral, they so obviously violate what is coded into most peoples genes. It most often takes some form of religion, or other social institution to make people allow themselves to believe otherwise, and commit acts that they might normally recoil from. We could wring our hands until the end of time trying to define morality, and this is what philosophers are good at, but most of us know just as human beings we would not like acid thrown in our face, and understand it’s simply not moral to do this to a little girl for any reason. It takes religion to make it right, and it takes a philosopher to tell others they have no basis for forming a judgment against it, simply because they are concerned with the definition of a word that has no meaning, except in terms of the opinions of a majority people.
Slavery is moral if enough people believe it to be, as is burning someone alive for a simple thought. Anything is indeed “moral” if enough people believe it to be. But rather than trying to hopelessly define morality. We should be more concerned with trying to understand how each individual comes to their own vision of morality Is it by using as much knowledge of our world as possible with a pure desire for truth and the improvement of the human condition, or is it through an active denial of reality and knowledge, with desires mostly consistent only with ancient myth or custom. It takes a rather large commitment to relativism and fuzzy thinking to think these two opposite world views will yield equally valid opinions on what is good for humanity, and therefore, what is moral.
Peter, you accuse me of presenting an uncharitable interpretation of Harris, but I don’t see you challenging my interpretation at all. All I have done is drawn direct attention to Harris’ own words. Harris is clearly and explicitly avoiding with much of the literature in moral philosophy. In other words, he’s dismissing it. I said so. You said I was wrong. Instead of fessing up to your error, you’re saying I’m not being charitable enough. Why? Because Harris says he’s avoiding the literature because he doesn’t think it would be of benefit to his intended audience. But I never challenged that. So how is my interpretation uncharitable?
The fact remains that Harris is dismissing much the literature, and that includes arguments as well as jargon. And the fact also remains, as Jollymore points out quite clearly, and as Pigliucci also suggests, that Harris is thereby offering a misleading view of the subject. Perhaps Pigliucci took the “boredom” comment too seriously. That’s a valid criticism. But I wouldn’t say this is deplorable. And I wouldn’t say he missed the point.
I also still think you’re making too much of the “get your head examined” remark. You’re treating it like it was presented as a substantive argument. Why do that? Why not just treat it as an off-hand remark? Not everything a philosopher says is meant to be taken as an argument, not even in a published review.
As for my comment about not calling the review deplorable, I think you’re getting a bit worked up over nothing. What I meant was that I wouldn’t call any particular aspects of the review deplorable. I didn’t mean to suggest that you had called the review, as a whole, deplorable. I don’t think I was being careless. I was just relying on context, which I thought made my meaning clear.
And, by the way, I think your “more than careless” remark is very suggestive and inappropriate. And your new claim that it merely appears that I don’t care enough is no better. You might disagree with my take on Harris, but your attitude is simply rude and unwarranted. Also, saying I am more than careless is not the same as saying I don’t care as much as I should. Either way, I don’t appreciate the comment. I think an apology is in order. Otherwise, I’m afraid we should call it a day before the quality of our interaction deteriorates.
Jason (#165) – I understand that you don’t appreciate the comment, but I don’t take factual criticism personally and I don’t think you have any warrant to do so either. Misrepresenting Harris’s explicit words, to my mind, is negligent; to keep on doing so after it has been pointed out to you, I take to be grossly negligent. In that sense, it is more than (= very) careless. Nothing further is implied; if your interpretation goes beyond that, I would ask you to assume responsibility for it yourself.
But I do appreciate your politeness in asking me to be more charitable. So let me put it in a form that is perhaps a little more conciliatory.
As to the facts of the matter: Harris explicitly limits his leaving meta-ethics out of the book to a) specific technical jargon and b) academic “views and conceptual distinctions” which would make the discussion inaccessible to a lay audience. Can we agree that, at least as far as this note goes (197n1), he does not dismiss anything, much less meta-ethics as a whole?
If you want to then argue that some other specific aspect of TML amounts to a dismissal of meta-ethics, you would of course have to marshal some additional evidence. I don’t see you having done that so far, but it would certainly be possible. On the other hand, I think that his extensive notes deal with a substantial amount of relevant philosophical matters, which prima facie would make it seem implausible that he dismisses the whole of meta-ethics, as Pigliucci asserted—and he only pointed to the one place that explicitly does not support his assertion.
Ivo,
Yep, it’s me. #130. The thing is, if I do certain horrible things because I think it will result in eternal life for me and my kind, that’s not the same value system as maximizing well-being for everyone. Why? Because if I believe that women who are raped deserve to be put to death, then that reveals a different belief system. And trading the suffering a little girl who just had battery acid thrown in her face for the chance to spend an afterlife with 72 virgins is *bad* in and of itself.
Refuting this value system would require that we explain why they’re wrong.. scratch that, in order to refute this value system we have to explain why they’re morally wrong to prefer what they do. They prefer honor based killing to our approach of nurturing rape victims. So what that they value their own well-being. We call people that value their own well-being so much that they’re willing to do horrible things to other people to get it evil, selfish bastards.
Now, what in the scientific study of well-being will justify this judgment that the Taliban is wrong to prefer their own well-being to this extent over the well-being of others?
Mark Beronte,
I’m sorry, but this comment demonstrates that you haven’t done your due diligence to find out what this whole dispute is about. It’s a dispute about epistemology, more specifically, moral epistemology. Instead of saying philosophers often miss the forest for the tress, you should go read up on meta-ethics. Sam Harris didn’t, and it shows. You won’t learn what you need to know here, or, at least not in this thread.
I’ll get you started:
Morality has to be shown to be more than mere preference, even if everyone prefers the same thing. What if everyone agreed to torture every 4th puppy born? Would that make it right? No.
It’s clear that many of us prefer things very strongly, but since it’s evident that goodness doesn’t mean the exact same thing as “preferred,” but still makes judgments on what people prefer, then in order to show that moral judgments are based on facts other than human taste (analogous to preferring chocolate or vanilla ice cream), there must be facts revealed that show that our preference for justice, for all, is morally better than the preference some cultures have for killing rape victims. It’s clear we prefer our moral belief system, but since it’s clear that morality is more than mere preference, we have to show how there is a factual distinction, (such that we gain confidence in the reason-giving power of morality), between our preference for ice cream to calf liver on the one hand, and our preference for fairness for all ,to the killing of rape victims, on the other.
So, no, actually, we can’t grant the moral absolutes you want us to, because that would be question-begging. Morality is more than preference. Even if we all preferred some principle we all deemed “good,” we would still have to distinguish that preference, epistemologically, from the preference some of us have for vanilla ice cream.
Peter Beattie,
I pointed out that Simon Blackburn would agree that we don’t need to base our moral beliefs on fairy tales or supernatural fantasy to demonstrate to a commenter that that’s not what this dispute is about. It appears people will latch on to just about anything they agree with Harris about, and claim that that thing they agree with him on is the main issue. I know you don’t like Blackburn’s response. And no, I’m not referring to anything in writing.
“As to the facts of the matter: Harris explicitly limits his leaving meta-ethics out of the book to a) specific technical jargon and b) academic “views and conceptual distinctions” which would make the discussion inaccessible to a lay audience. Can we agree that, at least as far as this note goes (197n1), he does not dismiss anything, much less meta-ethics as a whole?
If you want to then argue that some other specific aspect of TML amounts to a dismissal of meta-ethics, you would of course have to marshal some additional evidence. I don’t see you having done that so far, but it would certainly be possible. On the other hand, I think that his extensive notes deal with a substantial amount of relevant philosophical matters, which prima facie would make it seem implausible that he dismisses the whole of meta-ethics, as Pigliucci asserted—and he only pointed to the one place that explicitly does not support his assertion.”
(For some reason all the edit features aren’t showing up for me right now)
Peter Beattie,
I have written several times now about reason-giving power, and not one person has responded to that point. If Harris misses key issues (like reason-giving power) from the philosophical literature, then it’s odd to ask us to come up with a specific place where that happens. Our claim is that ***he doesn’t do something***. So when you ask us to show you where he doesn’t do it, of course we can’t come up with an answer, WE’RE SAYING HE DOESN’T DO IT.
Now, how can I go about showing you where he doesn’t do something. Hmm, well, the best answer I can come up with is it’s EVERYWHERE in his work.
We all know the summary to his thesis, and what I’m saying is that he apparently didn’t engage himself in the literature enough to successfully make the claims he’s making. If he had, he either would have revised his thesis and made it much more moderate, or he would have made a historically ground-breaking philosophical argument. He did neither.
His own claims that he sufficiently engaged in the substance of meta-ethics would only count as prima facie evidence if I had little to no idea what that literature contained. I do know a good deal about what it contains though, and from that, I know he couldn’t have engaged with it, because he’s smart enough to have learned more if he had.
And at the very least, the way he presents his thesis in the popular forums he’s participating in amount to a quasi-overt dismissal of meta-ethics. As it is, his book avoids it. Whether that counts as an overt dismissal, well, that issue will put me to sleep. The important claim is that he didn’t sufficiently engage with the literature. That he avoided the jargon of the discipline of philosophy is obvious. That’s not the critique. Anyway, he explicitly said in the note you refer to that he didn’t arrive at his position by reading moral philosophy. That doesn’t mean he didn’t read moral philosophy, of course, but that it didn’t move him. OK, fine. He needs to read more carefully next time.
Peter, I didn’t say Harris dismissed meta-ethics as a whole. I said he dismissed much of it. You say he didn’t dismiss anything. Maybe you don’t understand the word “dismiss.” It means he doesn’t consider much of the literature; he leaves it out. Now, again, you might disagree, though I think what he says about this is plain, and I don’t think I’m being uncharitable. Yet, you think I’m not just being uncharitable, but that I’m consistently mangling his words, and that I’m exhibiting an extreme lack of care in doing so. That is rude, Peter. It’s inappropriate. The fact that your remark is a factual claim is irrelevant. You disagree with my interpretation of Harris, and you call me “more than careless” for explaining and defending it. There are a great many factual criticisms that are out of place in polite society. This is one of them. I do expect an apology.
Paul W,
Getting something of tangential importance out of the way first, if you watch Sam Harris’ TED talk and don’t think the rhetorical effect is an appeal to emotions, then we don’t have much more to say on that topic. Before I let you loose to go watch that again though, (I mean, if you are so inclined) saying that a rhetorical effect is “such and such” does not mean that the presenter commits to that rhetorical effect overtly and consciously.
If one speaks to an audience that has no particular philosophical expertise, and uses examples of morally horrific things to demonstrate the kind of truth he has in mind, then he must be aware that people may agree with him just based on the obviousness of those examples. And those examples are obvious because of our emotions. I think he’s got a responsibility of due diligence to make very clear to a lay audience that our base line emotions are not what does the justifying work of moral judgment, rather than coming up with the examples he did. The talk is here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hj9oB4zpHww
Now, for evidence of the rhetorical effect I have in mind, reference #’s 78 and 82 of this thread. No underlying argument at all, just a crotchety protest that sacrosanct moral beliefs are being questioned at all. I believe Sam Harris should realize that people aren’t in any hurry to reject moral truth, and a philosophically lay audience will latch onto any reason whatever to accept moral truth. He’s not being that careful, and is justly criticized for it.
As for the rest, I’ll continue in a following post..
J. Jeffers (#167):
This is simply a classic game theory problem, the prisoner’s dilemma. The well-being of any individual is contingent on the well-being of others in countless ways (i.e. we all benefit from mutual cooperation, and those who act selfishly undermine a cooperative arrangement and harm themselves as well as others in the long run). Thus, by failing to value the well-being of honor killing victims (and those who care about them), the perpetrators do a disservice to their own well-being. Of course, these are the same people who believe that the truly consequential changes in well-being occur after death, and that is the focus of their concern; thus, they fail to appreciate the negative consequences of their actions (in this life, the only life they actually have) on their own well-being, and this is why their moral system fails. All of us are primarily concerned about our own well-being at bottom (see post #80), and we (should) judge moral systems by how well they achieve this goal.
Peter Beattie, You said, in your post (post #132),
This accomplishes nothing. See, the sociopath does not desire suffering, but pleasure. The pleasures the hedonist, sociopath, or sadist engage in do not violate the principles that values must relate to something, and that something must be something other than suffering for everyone. Some people get their preference satisfaction from doing things we don’t find good, but nevertheless the sociopath, hedonist, and sadist value the pleasure and/or satisfaction they get from the activities they engage in.
And “bad” can mean something, but it must mean something more than what we choose not to prefer. “We prefer X” doesn’t not mean X is good. Clearly, we can imagine all preferring something bad, so “preferred by us” does not mean the same thing as “good.” It’s incumbent on Sam Harris to explain how a scientific study of well-being would show us that we’re right to prefer well-being over other things in the first place.
And anyway, in post #’s 77 and 31, (and others) you assert that my statement that Harris is simply re-affirming his axioms is misapplied because I have (allegedly) failed to see that his argument isn’t free-floating and is instead a conclusion.
But, see, Peter, I have dealt with the arguments Harris offers, as summarized by you. And since I have, yet you bolded and italicized that I haven’t, that sticks in my craw. If Harris’ conclusion (that we can only talk about morality in the sense of well-being he prefers) fails, then ultimately what he’s doing is just re-asserting his starting moral position, because he’s failed to come up with other morally decisive reasons. True enough, he’s got an argument for why we can only talk of goodness in terms of well-being, but other people prefer different things, and some of them even call what they prefer “good.” If talk of sociopaths, sadist, and hedonists is growing tired, we can simply talk again of the Taliban. You yourself had this to say, in post 21
Now, for one thing, I was referring to a talk Sam Harris gave where he explicitly asked for a premise to be granted, and it’s a premise that is in dispute. Asking for these kinds of things is inappropriate. Now, if you say his book goes further, I’m not convinced and I’ve specifically said why in ways that you’ve ignored (read, reason-granting power). But, it’s incumbent on you as an epistemic peer and interlocutor to back up each critique of me you make. If I refute them, then silence doesn’t cut it, you must say why I’m wrong or admit you were. So, watch the video I posted, see Sam Harris ask for a challenged premise to be granted. Now, if you don’t think that’s inappropriate, then stop writing articles on philosophy, I beg you. But if you do think it’s inappropriate, at least in theory, then realize that I was referring to Harris’ video clip where he unquestionably did this.
Onto the more pressing issue, you admit that the Taliban doesn’t care about well-being. So, why are they wrong to prefer what they do to well-being? It can’t be that they can’t at all about what they prefer, and it can’t be that they can’t label their preferences “good”; it happens all the time. There’s no doubt that their preferences, and what they label them, pick out something different than what our term “well-being” picks out. But so what? Saying their preferences are “not our conception of what we should prefer” doesn’t not cut it. Goodness means more than that. It comes, our semantics demand, with reason giving power. So either there is such power in existence, or an error theory (a kind of moral skepticism) is in order, at least partially.
It would be nice if you demonstrated that you know what that means. That you realize that in order to show how someone (let’s call him “Bill”) is wrong to prefer another set of preferences, our conception of what’s right must come with the reason that shows that Bill is wrong. That doesn’t just mean “mistakenly believes himself to be pursuing our conception of well-being, only doing about it the wrong way.” Remember, you’ve already acknowledged that the Taliban don’t prefer well-being, so we don’t have to have that silly discussion. It’s clear to us, the Taliban are pursuing something different than what we label “well-being.” So, what authority, what legitimacy, what reason do we have that warrants our “moral” judgment that they’re wrong to prefer well-being? They approve of different things than we do, they think they *should* as well. Why are they wrong to do so? You can’t say that the reason why they’re wrong is that “it’s not well-being” without question begging. Remember? We both know, and the Taliban know, that their system isn’t the same as our “well-being.” They think whatever phenomena think approve of and pursue is morally better than “well-being.” The Taliban gets some satisfaction from what they do. They call what they do “good.” Refute them. And don’t beg the question.
//I’m sorry, but this comment demonstrates that you haven’t done your due diligence to find out what this whole dispute is about.//
It may be what it’s about for you, but what I’m trying to point out is that it’s all rather pointless. Something is moral only to the extent people think it is moral. There is no right or wrong answers except when it comes to applying scientific principles to it’s exploration. You can yammer all day about science not having anything to say on the issue, but that is why philosophy is philosophy and science is science. Philosophy is nothing, if not a parade of exactly the wrong answers, mostly because flawed models of the real world, and science has shown itself as the only thing that can reliably improve our models.
//Morality has to be shown to be more than mere preference, even if everyone prefers the same thing. What if
everyone agreed to torture every 4th puppy born? Would that make it right? No.//
Of course it would make it “right” if there was no one that thought otherwise, and the practice was not put to any objective measure of it’s effect on the population as a whole. There is no magic morality, it’s simply what people decide it is, and this is usually based on our deeply ingrained evolutionary social framework, but modified by artificial social institutions such as religion. Only insofar as people would study the effects of such practices on overall well being in a systematic way (science) could we have any chance of saying whether such a thing is objectively and absolutely right or wrong.
But morality is not a mathematical equation that can be solved, all we can do is make reasonable informed guesses as to what would be the greater good. No need to wring our hands over not knowing such things with 100% certainty, many moral questions will likely never yield themselves to such absolute conviction. But can rational people really pretend not to know if it is likely to be reasonable or unreasonable to think that putting acid on a little girls face is good for humanity as a whole.
At some point in our future history we might begin to understand that all world views are not created equal, but all people are. We do not have to respect a culture that bases it’s views of the world on primitive and barbaric myth that limit the free thought of the individual or restrict certain people to roles not much better than that of the family pet. Rational people should at least be able to agree that the subjugation of one’s thought or status by the will of another can never be moral, without having to erect a mathematical proof of such.
Or at the very least we should examine the motives and methods of those claiming moral knowledge. Is the motive of the morality subjugation or coercion for example. Is the morality based on a desire for truth, or is it simply ancient custom? Does it subjugate, harm anyone for vague, undefined, or non apparent benefits? As rational people can we really pretend to ignore such obvious indicators of a poor foundation.
To sum up I understand the argument but I simply find it nonproductive, ill conceived and irrelevant. It seeks to answer a question that has no answer outside of science, yet at the same time excluding science from even attempting an answer.
*sigh*
Eric Ross,
Do you deny that someone somewhere could have benefitted from an honor killing? Namely, the killer? What if someone gets off on such a thing? Couldn’t they love the feeling of power they get from it deep down, and that influences their adoption of the moral theory that allows for such a thing? You deny that the wicked have prospered?! Wow. Just. Wow.
J. Jeffers, I’m sorry to have mixed up your name with Jason’s. Re your comment #167, we have an alternative name for such “evil, selfish bastards”, and that would be sociopaths. I don’t know what proportion of the Talibans are simply sociopaths who profit from a crooked moral system to fulfill their sadistic dreams and get away with (even get credit for!) it, and on the contrary, what proportion believe in their hearts they’re following the most moral course of action. But this is immaterial: the question whether sociopaths, or nihilists, or anybody who doesn’t care should have a say in moral matters is a separate question (which is dealt with in detail in Harris’ book), and the answer is NO. The reason, in short, is the same why anybody who doesn’t value evidence, reason and truth is not entitled to discuss scientific matters. Such people are not invited to scientific conferences, and for very good reasons. The same reasons apply (ar should apply, if too many thinkers were not so confused) to mandate the exclusion of evil bastards from any serious discussion of moral matters. They have nothing interesting to say on how to improve our common lot and make humanity flourish, so they shouldn’t get invited to the conversation. I think that, once you step down from the rarified air of your meta-ethical peaks, you will find that this is not at all controversial — I mean in the real wold, where, you know, people actually try to live together. If you object to this, you must provide some very good reasons why the opinion of an evil bastard is just as relevant to moral matters as that of those who care for the common good of individuals and society. Then, on the same grounds, you must also accept that any postmodernist new-age quack’s opinion on scientific matters is just as good as that of the scientific expert community. That — or else, you must accept that your conception of what amounts to a “moral” position has little relevance to anything that actually goes on in human societies under that label.
Mark Beronte,
You have no idea what you’re talking about. This is a discussion about whether or not Sam Harris is right in his core thesis in the book The Moral Landscape.
As wrong as I believe my interlocutors to be, they’re no where near as confused as you are. See, when I say
“What if everyone agreed to torture every 4th puppy born? What that make it right?”
And you respond,
you show yourself to be a (at least a partial) moral skeptic, but not a particularly sophisticated one. At least do some reading up on what the issues even are before taking other people’s time.
Want more evidence of your lack of sophistication on the matter? How bout this:
The “should” is IN DISPUTE!! And yet, just a few paragraphs up, you introduce standards that allow that if I could convince everyone that rational people SHOULDN’T agree that the subjugation of one’s though or status by the will of another CAN actually be moral, then it in fact WOULD be moral to allow said subjugation!!
Ay Dios Mio
I’m leaving you with it Mark Beronte. You can say what you want from here on. I won’t bother you.
Ivo,
The difference between morality and science is that there is independent justification for the external world and its regular behavior. This world can be better understood through a systematic study (science). This justification is abductive (reference to the best explanation). And we actually do take the equivalent of the sociopath seriously in the philosophy of science, the radical skeptic; we’ve been doing it for quite a long time, and we’ve come to understand skepticism quite well in the process.
There is no equivalent justification for the existence of moral truth such as our moral semantics demand. Now, Sam Harris hasn’t just written a book about how to make the world a better place. He’s written a book about Moral Epistemology and Meta-ethics, whether he knows it or not.
The issue is not about whether we should be inviting sociopaths to the table when we make social policy, it’s about whether we can, even in principle, refute such people for their preferences. Sam Harris has claimed that we have, and that the traditional philosophical stance that we can’t is wrong.
This is not a conversation about applied morality. Or at least, since the topic is Sam Harris’ book, it shouldn’t be. This is a meta-ethical conversation. So this admonishment from you:
is very misplaced. And you’ll have to forgive me if I wish for the day when at least one person that disagrees with me in this thread demonstrates that they understand the issue. It’s not about who we have to listen to on moral matters. You know moral skeptics are generally not bad people. They’re not. They just have principled objections to moral realism (they don’t think we have to include sociopaths at the table). Sam Harris has picked a fight with them (the moral skeptics, among others) so this is not just a matter of how *we* are going to organize society. It’s a meta-ethical matter to begin with. If you’re not talking on that level, you’re not talking on topic.
@#85, CathyBy:
LOL. I asked:
“Do YOU want to increase or decrease your self-esteem? Do YOU want acid thrown in your face? Would you like to be the property of another human or the State, or do you want freedom?”
And #85, CathyBy, replies:
If only it was so simple. Does freedom increase your self-esteem? Are people happier and more fulfilled in societies where they feel strong obligations to each other and particularly to their families? If not, are some (young singles say) less happy but others (children? Older people?) more happy?!
At least you seem willing to ask the questions, and that’s a good thing. However, I suspect the difference between us is, ultimately, that I’m optimistic about fleshing out the detail when we move from my no-brainer (or so I thought) to the more gray areas.
I hope you find your moral compass one of these days. Otherwise I am truly looking for a person who would have no quibble with being my property. So … if you don’t really have any preference whether you become my slave or retain the freedoms granted by our type of society, please contact me a SlavesApplyHere@SlaveOwner.com
I think I like women like you ;)
Paul W,
When you say,
Um, well, it’s not obviously wrong in the Taliban’s culture. I mean, they do it, so.. it may be that they say that a woman who is raped deserves it, but that’s a substantive moral claim. (that is to say, when a woman does X, she deserves to be killed is a substantive moral claims). We don’t agree with it, but whether or not there are facts that could make our judgment that it’s wrong *morally correct*, rather than just ultimately a matter of taste, is in question. You have to offer an affirmative argument on that issue. If what you mean by their having a wrong justification is that they believe they’ll be spending eternity in paradise, well that doesn’t change the issue. There are still substantive moral claims being made even within this fundamentalist religious belief system.
You go on,
This word “defective” is question begging. I think you must be giving short shrift to my post where I address this, not only post #130, but post #135 in particular, where I discuss what we must show before we dismiss sociopaths and the like.
To wrap up, you say,
The dispute over Sam Harris’ book is about the claims he makes about demonstrating the wrongness of those that flout the phenomena we label “well-being.” It’s incumbent on you to explain how the natural kind of “well-being” confers reason-giving power (as I explained in post #’s 135, 136, 138, 144, and others) such that we can let’s say, for starters, justifiably, and without question begging, that sociopaths are “defective.” (that doesn’t just mean ill-suited for the social environment, because we could one day find ourselves outnumbered by them, in theory) If you’re defending the core thesis of The Moral Landscape, rather than just riffing on how a part of that book inspired this line of thought in you, it’s incumbent to meet the challenge of how this natural kind you discuss grants reason giving power; there are no other natural kinds like that, that we know of.
I would say more, but I promised I wouldn’t post again till Monday. I waited till it was technically Monday, and rattled off some posts. Now I have to get some rest. Live my life, etc.
J. Jeffers:
*sigh*
Not even the most evil sociopath desires to live in a society entirely consisting of sociopaths (not even the Dark Knight’s Joker: it wouldn’t be half as much fun to sow caos, if everybody else were equally lusting for it). Even they want to enjoy all advantages of a well-organized, cooperative, just society; each would like to be the only one allowed to break the rules, but obviously not too many can be the few exceptions, or they wouldn’t enjoy the advantages of being selfish free loaders in the first place.
Yes, let us imagine a world where everybody prefers something “bad”. Say, on a distant planet — a twin earth — it is cats, not monkeys, that evolve to become the only intelligent species. So yes, this would be something like a society (if that’s the word) of selfish edonistic killing machines, who have fun torturing their future food, and who barely tolerate each other’s company even when they’re in heat (or something like that).
There are at least two things that come to mind. First of all, if they are roughly as intelligent as us, these cats would pretty soon realize that not anything goes, in terms of how to interact. As their population grows and resources (torturable mice, for instance) start to become scarce, they must realize that it is in the interest of each cat that they set up some sort of cooperative structures, so that each may keep having what he values. Such basic mechanisms as the tragedy of the commons etc will kick in, and they had better solve these issues, or each would suffer, and each doesn’t want that. I venture that, their being what they are, any attempt at organizing a society of cats would end up with some kind of nightmarish nazi horror, where the most able exploit the others, and the others dream of ending their dismal suffering by taking their place. Would they like to live in such a state? I doubt it — except for the few on top. Would this mean that their moral systems are incommensurable with ours, and that they are just as “moral” as us? No, it would just mean that they suck at it, although mostly because of their biological past. If they could choose to improve their own sociability by some bioengineering, would they want to do so? I think yes, because each individual would realize that they would each be better off.
Second, any conception of morality that would be adopted in a society of sociopaths (insofar as they would articulate one) would hardly have any relevance to human affairs. Why? Because we (the vast majority of non-sociopath humans) are different. We generally have a lot of empathy for our fellows, at least for close kin and whoever socially interacts with us daily; we can, and often do, take pleasure at the joy of others, and usually recoil from unnecessary suffering; we value fairness, and so on and so fort. Any normative moral system involving humans will accomodate such features of what we value.
(continued…)
What else could we prefer?
I’m confident that whatever alternative notion you may come up with that has ever been “preferred” in some society’s moral system, is ultimately concerned with that society’s well-being. Even the proclaimed goals and values of every dictatorship — or any other dysfunctional society where you wouldn’t want to live — are supposed to achieve that. Even the moral relativists’ contention that “we should value all moral systems equally” is predicated on the assumption that this would be for us the better (the good) thing to do.
Ivo
Let’s put this in practical terms. You make the comparison to scientific conferences, but moral matters are not decided in any similar way. So that’s not a good analogy. Let’s look, instead, at voting. Really, when we talk about applied ethics in a broad sense, we’re talking about politics. So, when you say people of a certain psychological type or inclination should not have a say, you are suggesting they should not be able to vote. I don’t assume this is what you mean to say, of course. But, in practical terms, I think that is the result of your position. Either you want psychological studies to determine who gets to vote and who doesn’t, or you think that the psychological issues you have mentioned are irrelevant when it comes to who gets to vote.
If you want to make the comparison to scientific conferences more appropriate, let’s put it this way: there are conferences on moral philosophy often enough. Those who are invited are those who have demonstrated expertise in the field. They are not screened for psychological dispositions. Nihilists are not excluded. Should they be? Hell no.
Jason (#171) – You disagree with my interpretation of Harris, and you call me “more than careless” for explaining and defending it.
Yeah, right, that’s obviously a fair way of describing the situation. :D
Maybe you don’t understand the word “dismiss.” It means he doesn’t consider much of the literature; he leaves it out.
You’re funny. If I were you I’d say this is rude and you owe me an apology. But I think the cleverer strategy is to simply point to relevant evidence, eg in Merriam-Webster’s definition: ‘to reject serious consideration of’. There are two points here: the rejecting part means that you consciously leave something out, namely because you think it isn’t worth consideration. Now, there are two possible things for Harris to leave out: only the bits that would make his presentation inaccessible to a lay audience, or other bits that are essential to get a certain point.
The first point, which is the only point supported by quoting 197n1, does not meet the crucial second part of the definition of ‘dismiss’. So if we’re talking about that point, ‘dismiss’ is in fact not a fair description. If, however, we are talking about the second point—i.e., that Harris leaves necessary bits out of the wider discussion—then you would have to show, for example, in which places in the book such bits would have been indispensable. (Which takes up a challenge by J. Jeffers in #170. I’m actually sympathetic to that challenge, JJ. It’s just that you would have to point me to somewhere specific and say, for example, ‘At this point, the discussion doesn’t make sense without dealing with Mackie’s counter-argument X, which Harris never mentions.’ That Harris never mentions it is not actually a problem for your argument; but you’d have to be able to say where he would have needed it.)
Peter, in the book, Harris doesn’t consider much of the relevant literature. He explicitly rejects consideration of many of the conceptual distinctions as irrelevant to his purposes. That’s what “dismiss” means. That’s what he does. Was I rude for suggesting you might not know what the word “dismiss” meant? Perhaps. Do you deserve it? Yes, I think so. Is this further evidenced by your ridiculous fussing over the word “dismiss?” Yes. I also can think of a number of other “factual criticisms” which might be pertinent and justified, but which I’ll refrain from indugling in. In any case, I have no interest in discussing this any further with you. You don’t want to apologize? Fine. End of discussion.
Ivo,
A few things:
1) Have there been societies that have unfairly raped and pillaged and stolen from other societies? And benefitted from it? I’m interested in whether we understand reality in even roughly the same way.
2) You wrote this,
Right, which is why it’s in the interests of the sociopath to keep his lack of moral concern quite. But it has come out before. We know there are people that lack concern for others (even while, in their estimation having preferences for themselves). So what if it’s in their interests to fool people into thinking they care, so as to foster a cooperative society that’s good for them to continue going about being a selfish bastard? Their lack of concern is what’s in question. And turning morality’s foundations into merely instrumental concern like you are will, in the end, just serves as a stall tactic (I want to be clear, I’m not saying you’re being insincere or consciously tactical, just that in the end, this line of argument is just delaying us from getting to the heart of the matter).
3) You also wrote,
Wait, but it’s on us to say more than that the sociopaths are different. We have to say they’re wrong for being different. And just to reference back to what we value in order to explain why they’re wrong begs the question, since they don’t value the same things. Sociopaths are humans. We agree on that, right?
4) Lastly, you wrote,
There is a kind of asinine form of moral relativism that states what you claim it does here. But since Sam Harris has said that he can demonstrate that the Taliban is wrong, and can show that scientific study of morality can lead to a justified belief in moral realism, he has challenged a more sophisticated form of moral relativism: metaethical moral relativism (MMR). MMR states that what can be true by one set of standards can be false by another set of standards. If, in a particular moral dispute over how to treat rape victims, honor and human rights collide, then we should balk at the assertion that these claims are in direct (notational) conflict. The reason the case of the sociopath is similar is that the sociopath avoids direct conflict as well. MMR states that this diversity of opinion is so fundamental that rival moral (or what we call immoral or even amoral) systems are often incommensurate.
Now, MMR does not state that we should value all moral systems equally. I mean, that should only go through if we do already. And even if we did believe that we should value all moral systems equally, clearly every moral system doesn’t think that. And how on earth could the stupid kind of moral relativism you cite settle the dispute between individuals and groups? If couldn’t, and least not without referring at some point to something that sounds an awful lot like a universal moral principle, instead of just a local and provisional one (which out of the other side its mouth, claims is all that matters). We don’t have to talk about stupid forms of moral relativism, because Sam Harris has picked a fight with MMR as well. The point about incommensurability is separable from the point about valuing all moral systems equally. MMR deploys the former point, not the latter point, because the latter contention is stupid. Had Sam Harris done his due diligence in his presentation of his thesis, we wouldn’t have to be wading through these ultimately time-wasting arguments. Incidentally, I sighed at someone else’s argument, but if that got a rise out of you such that you thought I deserved a sigh of my own, that’s fine I guess.
Now if you all will excuse me. I have several other things to accomplish, and I don’t think my girlfriend would understand if I weren’t able to accomplish them and failed to get her an impressive Valentine’s Day present as well. If I stay around much longer, I will look up and the whole day will have gone by. I hope the internet still exists tomorrow. If it does, I’ll be back.
@Jesper Kristensen
Ah! Sadly, on this Valentine’s Day, I must tell you it can never be. Tragically, I don’t like people who either can’t read more than a paragraph, or twist other’s words. After what you quoted above, I went on to say…
Durn blockquote (sigh) – from “simple version” should be outside quotes in comment #188
@ Jason Streitfeld #158
Yes, I think we do agree.
@ Paul W #161
I’m concerned what I said might have been ambiguous – what my Introduction to Ethics was saying was not that values can (or should) be explored by sciences, but that ethical judgements depend on both values and facts, and those facts need to be accurate to arrive at the correct ethical judgements.
It did not endorse any notions that science cannot provide those facts (explicitly the opposite) nor that morality cannot be criticised because it is cultural.
Peter Beattie,
Quickly, I disagree with the standards of argument you cite here:
See, the summary of the thesis of The Moral Landscape is all we need. You’ve read it, I’ve read it, and we’ve both offered summaries. The idea that in order to fairly refute TML, I must scour the book and show where his engagement with the literature of moral philosophy and meta-ethics is insufficient, seems like a standard dreamed up by his lawyers. In other words, by someone trying to find any possible way to forestall the argument against Harris, come hell or high water.
You’re welcome to cite page numbers if you want, and you have. I think I’ve been fairly assiduous in challenging your reading of those passages you cite, but demonstrating my familiarity with those passages as well.
The only reason I should have to come up with specific places where Harris’ engagement with the contributions of the discipline of academic philosophy are insufficient is if your summary and deployment of Harris’ arguments in TML is not faithful to what he said, or fails to capture the meaning of his contentions.
I’m suspicious that you would respond in any way remotely favorable to my position if in fact I did point you certain passages. I’ve been telling you why his argument needs to have accomplished more from the get go, and this was in reply to your summary. You were unmoved.. impervious, I would say. That doesn’t mean you’ve actually replied to my points (specifically my points about reason-giving power, incommensurability, what we would need to be able to rightly call someone wrong for flouting our conception of well-being, etc), far from it. Add to that, your response (#121 to my #114) was barely responsive to the specific points I made. And my post #174 is still just hanging out there. Now, I now there is sometimes a lag, and things must hang out there. You may be in the process of responding; that’s fine. I’ll find out when I come back. But, we both have arguments on the record that have to do with Harris’ core thesis. There are several that I have presented to you still waiting there on the table. So to say I now must go show you in the book where Harris specifically fails to engage with the literature and where he should have is a misdirecting tactic.
Now, to be clear, I’m not saying you’re consciously trying to do this. I’m saying we’ve been arguing about the thesis of TML for a while now. You have summarized the arguments that you think I need to deal with. I have responded, painstakingly I might add, to those arguments you summarize. If you think about it, I think you would see that we’re in the middle of a dispute where we have to subject on the table. So to say we have to appeal to something else now is changing the rules in mid-stream. You want to talk about the book. And you want me to deal with certain arguments (that you’ve summarized). I’ve responded to your points about the book when you’ve taken the trouble to cite pages to me, and I’ve responded very specifically to the summary you offer of what you take to be key argument Harris makes. Not it’s your turn to respond substantively, not to misdirect my energy.
I would direct your attention to my posts 138 and 144, and my discussion with Paul W, but I’m not optimistic about what effect that will have either.
In case it’s not abundantly clear, Peter Beattie, I meant to say now it’s your turn. Not “not” it’s your turn.
I thought it might bear repeating, that’s it’s your turn to engage in the back and forth, that is.
CathyBy, and Jason,
It’s our lot in life to be misunderstood by the likes of Jesper Krestensen.
I hope those relatively sensible defenders of Harris, like Paul W, and Peter Beattie (yes, you are more sensible that Jesper on this issue, Peter) will see the rhetorical effect of citing the obviousness of certain moral principles that seem self-evident to us.
It doesn’t have to be that Harris overtly relies on the argument “this is obvious to me, therefore it’s correct,” or that he claims that if he can get us to feel something, that makes him right. Rather, he’s dealing with an audience, many members of which need to be properly educated on what the issue is, least they agree with the thesis of The Moral Landscape for the wrong (or even silly) reasons.
Exhibit A, from post #78:
Exhibit B, from post #82:
Exhibit C, from post #89:
^^This poster had the gall to go on to quote Bertrand Russell in favor of the thesis that science can show which values are right, and which ones wrong (Alasdair Cameron rightly seized on this irony).
Exhibit D, from post #180, in reply to CathyBy’s skepticism that Harris’ thesis succeeds:
Now, I realize Jesper meant this to be funny, but I think this contribution, like the others I cite, demonstrate that a chunk of Harris’ defenders don’t even understand what it means to debate these meta-ethical issues. I’ve run into these kinds of defenders of Harris everywhere the subject is being disputed. Harris could have educated them on the issue, but he only served to bolster their confusion. I could have predicted that for you, Peter Beattie, when I saw Harris’ original popular presentation on the topic.
Jason (#186) – “Peter, in the book, Harris doesn’t consider much of the relevant literature. He explicitly rejects consideration of many of the conceptual distinctions as irrelevant to his purposes.”
If you’re really so keen on conceptual distinctions, how about you start with the one between “stuff that makes my book inaccessible” and “stuff that is essential for making my case”? What you are trying to say is that they are one and the same, but you continually refuse to give any evidence for that assumption. So, actually you’re not ending a discussion—you haven’t even started to take part in one.
J. Jeffers (190) – “I’m suspicious that you would respond in any way remotely favorable to my position if in fact I did point you certain passages.”
Try me. In the meantime, I’ll have a look at the comments you referenced.
J. Jeffers:
I think you missed the point of my text that you quoted about the Taliban acid-throwers. I’m not saying that they currently know that what they’re doing is wrong, so your saying “they do it”, etc. doesn’t bear on the point that I’m actually making.
I know they think it’s the right thing to do. (Most of them, I guess—there are probably some sociopaths just looking for an excuse, and some in-betweeners acting in some variant of self-deception bad faith or other. But for the sake of argument, let’s assume that they all sincerely think the ends justify the means and it’s moral.)
My point is that they think it’s the right thing to do only because they have certain beliefs about the consequences of unbridled female immodesty, and/or the dictates of a morally authoritative god who tells them that female immodesty is immoral, and who they think would approve of throwing acid on immodest women. (I allow for the latter to be fairly free-floating in an individual’s head, and not simply reduce to the former. Harris is unclear and a bit simplistic on that point.)
—
Harris’s claim is not that we don’t have different particular values from the Taliban people, which explain our different judgments. Of course we do. The claim is that those differing values differ mostly due to differences in belief, not differences in underlying fundamental values. That’s why religion matters so much—religion is what maintains many of those differences in belief, which affect values.
Harris’s claim is that they don’t do so mainly by changing fundamental values—those are cross-cultural universals. They mostly do so by changing beliefs, such that people think they’re applying the same values—e.g., concern for the general welfare—but come up with different answers anyhow.
—
The point is that, like us, the Taliban people generally do know that the specific action of throwing acid in women’s faces would be wrong, all other things being equal, but unlike us, they believe those things are not in fact equal. They have a rationale for doing it, and that rationale can be true or false.
Harris is saying—rightly, I think—that this just isn’t mainly a matter of incommensurable irreducible values. Taliban types generally agree with us that causing gratuitous grievous harm is wrong. (Like every culture, theirs has a principle that says you generally shouldn’t do to others what you wouldn’t want done to you.) Where we disagree with them is that they think that the harm they’re doing is anything but gratuitous. They’re doing it for reasons, and those reasons are factually mistaken. Female immodesty is not really that big a threat to the fabric of society, and there is no God whose opinions on such things are decisive and who says to throw acid on these women, etc.
Do you disagree with that? Are you claiming that Taliban types don’t know it’s wrong to throw acid in people’s faces without a very good reason to do so, strong enough to override the general principle of not doing gratuitous grievous harm?
—
As for calling sociopaths defective, I don’t think that it’s question-begging in the context of the kind of argument that Harris is making.
Consider a broken leg. A broken leg is a defective leg, qua leg, given the basic function of legs. It’s broken. You might personally prefer it that way, for some reason unrelated or inversely related to the normal function of legs, but you’d have to admit it’s not as good a leg anymore.
Harris is saying the same basic kind of thing about morality. Morality has a natural function, whether you actually care about that function or not, and if an individual doesn’t care about the welfare of others, their morality unit is broken. They may prefer it that way, but it’s broken nonetheless. (You might break a leg to fit it into your stew pot, making it more suitable as food, but less suitable as a leg.)
Saying that sociopaths are defective or broken is not question-begging (although it could be a mistaken idea), so long as there’s no assumption that you have to care about that sense of brokenness. If morality has an identifiable function that requires that component—a certain minimal benign concern for others—then morality without that component is broken relative to that natural function.
I think Harris is right about that. Normal morality has an evolved function, and sociopaths are broken moral units, scientifically speaking.
It’s a bit more complicated than Harris makes it out to be, because sociopathy itself may turn out to have a clear evolved function too. A non-sociopath is therefore broken with respect to a certain kind of self-serving function. (And in fact some intelligent, morality-aware sociopaths do consider themselves superior in exactly that way. They can understand morality, and use that understanding to exploit others, while not being slaves to it themselves.)
It’s even more complicated than that, because I suspect that “broken” morality may serves higher evolutionary function. Morality didn’t really evolve to promote the general welfare, but to promote group welfare at the expense of out-groups. So what counts as broken or un-broken morality, scientifically, generally depends on a particular level of analysis.
—
I’m not sure I understand your concern with “reason-giving powers,” but so far as I understand it, there aren’t any special ones.
Notice that none of the foregoging gives people basic reasons for action, if they don’t already have the requisite basic motivations, e.g., some benign concern for others.
Understanding morality as having a function, and sociopaths as being broken doesn’t give sociopaths a reason not to be sociopaths. (And vice versa—if you understand the functional criteria under which sociopaths are higher functioning than moral people, that won’t make you a sociopath.)
I think Harris is clearly conceding that. He’s not claiming that a logical argument will change anybody’s fundamental valuing or not valuing of others’ interests; Hume was right about that. He’s only claiming that if you already have the prerequisites—mostly benign concern and a commitment to basic rationality—logical argument can clarify how to apply what ought to what is.
What Harris seems to be doing is making a natural kinds argument—e.g., distinguishing between relatively normal morality and sociopathy—and arguing that when we talk about being moral, we’re talking about at least the former, and not the latter. Sociopaths are broken moral agents, even if moral people are also broken sociopaths.
I think Harris is basically right that that is part of what the word means, and don’t think it’s question begging to point out that when people talk about morality, they do mean at least that. If you want to talk about some more general framework for understanding valuation, in which sociopaths are arguably superior, you’re not talking about morality.
—
Notice that I’m appealing to common usage to fix the basic referents of terms like “moral,” but I’m not appealing to a consensus to make moral out to be “normal” and sociopaths to be defective in an ultimate evaluative sense.
Let me give an example to make that clear.
Suppose that it turned out that most people weren’t even basically, minimally moral—suppose that 60 percent were complete sociopaths pretending to be moral, and only 40 percent were sincerely moral. We’d still be able to fix the referent of the term “moral person,” even though most of our examples turned out to be wrong. We would not invert the sense of the terms and call the sociopathic majority moral, just because it turned out to be “normal,” even if those “normal” sociopaths found sociopathy preferable as well.
That would violate the plain sense of the terms; however much confusion there is about moral principles and particular applications of them, there’s not that much confusion. The term “moral person” is irrevocably associated with the group that cares at least a little about others, and not the sociopaths.
If it turned out that everybody was a sociopath, merely pretending to have any basic concern with other people’s well-being, we could still talk about morality—we could say real morality doesn’t exist among humans, in basically the same way phlogiston doesn’t exist. I think we could talk about morality counterfactually; we could talk about what could reasonably count as real morality, were we to encounter it in some other species, such as intelligent aliens from a distant planet.
—
That’s a tricky argument to make, and more difficult than Harris lets on—fixing the referents of “natural kind” terms is extremely weird in the case that aren’t simple—but I think it’s ultimately right.
One weirdness is that Harris is clearly privileging some of the purported aspects of most of our current purported exemplars of the kind, and saying that other common features of purported exemplars are irrelevant on closer inspection—e.g., benign concern for others is criterial for clear membership in the kind, as opposed to obedience for its own sake, or a specific concern with “pure” sexual practices, which are dispensable.
One thing to be very clear on is that you don’t make this sort of natural kinds argument by simply putting it to a popular vote. Whether the majority agrees is not decisive.
Popular usage is important in roughly fixing the referent of the term—there’s an assumption that what we’re talking about has been observed and given a particular name—but there’s no assumption that the majority actually understands the phenomenon in question well at all, or isn’t seriously mistaken about many purported examples. The majority’s beliefs can be mostly mistaken, even fairly radically mistaken, as in my earlier example about what constitutes a “human being.”
For lack of a better way of articulating that, let me give another example that may clarify my intuitions about natural kinds . (Sorry it’s the best I can do at this moment.)
Consider money. At any given time and place, most people may not understand what makes money money. For example, many people have confused the idea of money with the idea of currency, thinking that money is always physically instantiated as currency—coins or bills or wampum or cowrie shells or something. They can nonetheless use money, and refer to money, despite their ambiguous and largely incorrect ideas about the necessary or sufficient conditions of money-ness. They can correctly think that they have money in the bank, despite being mistaken as to whether, e.g., there’s a particular pile of currency with their name on it in a vault.
Interestingly, if you explain what really makes money money to those people, they can generally “get it,” and they don’t decide that money represented differently isn’t real money. They will typically come to agree, on reflection, that having enormous stacks of currency in banks would be pointless, and that some numbers in computers work just as well, provided that the rules for manipulating those numbers ensure that their money doesn’t simply disappear, and that other people can’t just bring money into existence by increasing the numbers for their bank balances, and thus deflate the money in their accounts.
It’s interesting to note that when most people start using money, as children, their ideas about money are way too concrete, and that they usually do have to have these things explained to them, and do work them through (if they care enough). There’s a common pattern of changing ideas about money, with people’s ideas maturing from overly concrete and quite incorrect to something that reflects the fairly abstract nature of money.
So far, the money example shows that we can at least sometimes fix a referent to something that is commonly misunderstood, and whose proper referent is only revealed on the basis of more informed and thoughtful understandings about the phenomenon.
For a natural kinds approach to work, though, there has to be some limit on how flexible the term is. There has to be some enduring connection between the common ideas that we use to roughly fix the referent of the term and what we ultimately decide are the necessary features of the category.
We can’t just arbitrarily pick certain features of a naively understood type, and call them necessary, and ignore others, saying they’re irrelevant. We have to preserve certain naive intuitions, but it’s hard to say which ones ahead of time.
The money example may clarify that, too.
Suppose that we explained to people that money was just numbers in computers manipulated according to certain rules, and we’d decided on a new set of rules that meant they couldn’t spend their money, or could only spend it on cappucinos at Starbucks or off-brand tennis shoes at Wal-Mart.
At that point, people would rightly balk—they always understood money to be something that you could spend pretty freely, on all sorts of things. That’s the main point of having money, as opposed to having piles of specific goods to barter with. The idea of money is very flexible—it can survive radical revisions like going from thinking it’s about physical currency to thinking it’s about abstract constraints on exchanges, implemented by whatever informational means—but there’s a point at which it breaks. It just breaks when you can’t do the basic things you always knew you could do with money, like buy a candy bar with a little of it, or buy a car with a lot of it.
That example reveals what is a necessary feature of money—that whatever else it is, it is a close-to-universal medium of exchange. It has to at least approximate that, although there may be some irregularities, too—e.g., one hopes that no amount of money lets a random rich person buy a tactical nuclear weapons. But If you can only spend it on overpriced cappucinos and shoddy sneakers, that’s not good enough; it’s not real money. It’s just not nearly close enough to a universal medium of exchange. And if you can’t spend it at all, it’s not anything like money in the most important sense—if that’s money, then “money” is a “meaningless fucking term,” and we’ve gone wrong somewhere.
When it comes to money, we’ve always had a basic sense that money lets you buy things fairly generally, and that more money lets you buy more things. Those utterly basic intuitions don’t go away on rational reflection in light of facts about money, as do the intuitions that equate money with, e.g., currency or quantities of gold. If you call something money and it doesn’t do anything like that, you simply don’t know what money is.
Harris is arguing similarly about morality. He’s arguing that the proper referent of “moral” includes, at a minimum, some concern for the welfare of others—that intuition doesn’t go away on rational reflection, and is more fundamental than intuitions about divine mandates or sex being naughty. The latter are dispensible, and the former is not.
I think he’s right. It think that on rational reflection in light of the actual facts, people do generally understand that what they always meant and still mean about morality has something to do with concern for others’ well-being. It doesn’t have much to do with God (h.t. Plato’s Euthyphro), who in any event appears not to exist.
Harris is making an empirical claim here—that if people become (e.g.) atheists, and understand morality in these kinds of naturalistic terms rather than supernaturalist ones, on rational reflection they’ll still care about morality in pretty much the same way they ever did, just as most of us still care about money as we did before, after realizing that most of our overly concrete and specific beliefs money were wrong. Properly understanding money doesn’t make us think it doesn’t exist, or stop wanting to have it and spend it.
—
That’s not the whole argument. For the whole argument to succeed, Harris has to deal with numerous objections, and show that no other way of fixing the referent of the term works—that it has a unique referent in at least the sense of having one necessary feature he claims it has. And for Harris’s further points—e.g., that every other moral consideration more or less reduces to concern for well-being, he needs whole other arguments.
Unfortunately, I have to go right now, so I’ll leave it there for the moment, and hope that clarified the approach.
I like the idea of Paul W. (#195) giving Harris a leg up… :)
Paul W. (#63) – Harris needs to very explicitly make the claim that there’s a special kind of morality that people tend to rationally converge to … he needs to make the claim more clearly falsifiable
He actully does both: the first, to give just two examples, on p. 33, in arguing that religious and philosophical notions of morality are all grounded in ‘well-being’, and on p. 45, anchoring or sense of morality in our common evolutionary history; the second, in the second paragraph on p. 189.
J. Jeffers
//Want more evidence of your lack of sophistication on the matter?//
Yes and I’m very proud about this. Nothing like too much exposure to philosophy to ruin a perfectly good mind. All that exposure to ideas that were simply dead wrong, based on flawed models of physical reality, it’s a wonder professional philosophers can still function let alone have an original thought.
Also You’re very good at calling people unsophisticated, however you don’t seem very good at responding to points made, such as how are you to exclude science from a study of morality, and yet claim some kind of absolute knowledge that it couldn’t possibly have anything to say on the subject?
//The “should” is IN DISPUTE!! //
YES I KNOW IT IS AND MY POINT IS THAT IT IS A POINTLESS DISPUTE. DO YOU READ WHAT IS WRITTEN? But you don’t even bother to explain how you could claim absolute knowledge on the subject, in terms of morality being impossible to subject to empirical inquiry, while at the same time saying any absolute knowledge about morality would be an impossibility for science. You base your assumptions on nothing but the premise that if someone cannot prove to you that morality could have an objective basis then it must not be objective, yet you would deny them the ability to use science in such proof. It’s absurd, as is your entire position.
But I’ll let you have your fun now. (And by fun I mean wasting your time desperately defending an indefensible position.) I have stated my position, had no points responded to, and been disparaged. I know when a discussion has turned into trench warfare, and I personally don’t have the time or inclination for such wastes of life. Enjoy!
//I think we’ve both been wasting our time on a clown with delusions of philosophical grandeur.//
No, what you are wasting your time on is philosophy in general. Try science instead. A tenth of the words, and a hundred times the nutrients. Like going from cardboard to energy bars. Good philosophy can only be built on good science. The opposite will get you no where but hey you can dream.
Peter,
Hey, it’s cool as long as it doesn’t cost me real money.
Mark, I hope it was clear I had Peter in mind when I made that comment. I wasn’t responding to you at all. But, since you mentioned it, I certainly wouldn’t exclude science from any study of morality. I don’t see anybody here trying to exclude science. But I think the relationship between science and philosophy might be a bit more complex than you suggest.
Peter (@63)
Yes, and thanks for the references.
One reason that I’m defending Harris so much is that I do think Harris is making basically the arguments I’m making, and is making many of the specific points, but his critics are largely missing what kind of argument he’s really making it, and not noticing the significance of the specific points when he makes them.
People have overestimated the extent to which Harris is just ignoring professional philosophers’ concerns, e.g., about noncognitivism. How anybody can fail to recognize that Harris is arguing against noncognitivism is a bit of a mystery to me—a theme of the book is that morality works in certain cognitive ways, and noncognitivism doesn’t begin to capture the meaning of moral claims.
Likewise, in terms of professional philosophy, TML is disappointing in that Harris doesn’t explicitly talk about “natural kinds” or the causal theory of reference as I do, and justify it in terms of professionally respectable hifalutin philosophy of language.
I do think it’s pretty clear that that’s very much the kind of argument he’s making, and that it should be clear to professional philosophers that it’s a eminently philosophically respectable thing to do, whether or not you ultimately buy his specific arguments and conclusions.
I can understand professional metaethicists being a rather peeved with Harris for not addressing things in terms of Intro to Ethics and Metaethics.
On the other hand, I’m a bit peeved with many of Harris’s professional philosopher critics for apparently missing the point that he’s obviously making a natural kinds argument—have they not had Intro to Philosophy of Science and Intro to Philosophy of Language?
George Carlin is not wrong to joke about things becoming meaningless fucking terms when you see people behaving like flaming assholes for no good reason, and still can’t bring yourself to say that what they’re doing is wrong. Harris is not wrong to use that sort of thing as an example of some people—including some professional philosophers—missing the boat entirely.
IMO, modern philosophy of language shows that Carlin and Harris are right, and how common sense is right on that point—the meanings of words like “sports” or “money” or “wrong” are simply not arbitrarily flexible, and if professional ethical philosophers can’t preserve the plain meanings of basic terms in the most obvious cases, they are probably getting something seriously wrong somewhere along the line. Not necessarily—some truths really are thoroughly shocking—but when you hear a professional philosopher saying something obviously utterly absurd, it’s not unreasonable to suspect that the philosopher missed the boat. It happens.
For example, if you hear a professional philosopher saying that money isn’t real, or that sports aren’t real, you should be dubious. Money and sports are as real as anything needs to be, in any sense that matters, and if there’s some technical sense in which they’re not real—e.g., that money is based on speech acts, not plain facts—that is probably not a sense of “not real” that matters for most purposes. In vernacular terms at least, money is real, and that sense of real can be cashed out in hifalutin’ philosophy-of-language terms as well. It is not philosophically disreputable or necessarily naive to regard money as real.
Similarly, I don’t think Harris is philosophically disreputable or particularly naive to regard Taliban acid-throwing as wrong, and even really wrong. I think he’s right that anybody who can’t recognize that fact has missed the boat somewhere, and is using some messed-up sense of “wrong” or “real,” just like somebody who says there aren’t any human beings, really, or that nobody really has any money, or that Michael Jordan isn’t really a better athlete than Paul W.
Paul,
You haven’t addressed my last comments addressed to you (see post #134). Perhaps you’ve forgotten, or just haven’t had time. In any case, I don’t see where or how you think you’ve gotten around any of the criticisms which have been levelled against Harris. If your claim is just that he’s not making the argument people think he’s making, then I’m not convinced. He’s had ample opportunity to clarify his arguments, and he’s sticking to a line that just doesn’t work. Your attempt to sell it in terms of natural kinds and the causal theory of reference doesn’t make Harris’ arguments any more attractive.
Do you claim that the concept morality must be causally connected to some natural kind, or else the term “morality” wouldn’t be meaningful? That’s a highly dubious claim. Is the concept two causally connected to a natural kind?
Do you suppose that everybody’s concept of morality is causally connected to the same natural kind? That’s also highly dubious. Why not suppose that people have very different conceptions of morality? Why not even suppose that, even within a single individual, the concept of morality is not a single, clearly defined concept? Perhaps there are a number of natural kinds which are vaguely indicated by the term “morality” in any given usage.
Do you suppose that, if morality is a natural kind, and that we all have this particular natural kind in mind when we talk about morality, then there are objective answers about what is morally right and morally wrong? That is not logical. I think of morality as a process, surely a natural one. It’s a process of defining and judging right action. This seems to happen in all cultures and communities, including the Taliban. So, even if we say that morality is a natural kind, we can still say that it is exhibited by the Taliban as much as anywhere else. We haven’t gone one step closer to regarding one moral system as better or worse than another.
Do you suppose that “right” and “wrong” are natural kinds? And that our knowledge of right and wrong is based on causal interactions with the right and the wrong? Can you explain what sort of thing the right and the wrong are? What sort of causal interactions are we talking about here? Are these feelings that I observe in myself?
By the way, there’s a really simple way of seeing why you and J. Jeffers are both right about the point concerning Harris’ appeal to emotions. Yes, Harris is trying to construct an existence proof for an objective fact about the rightness or wrongness of certain actions. But he is doing so by appealing to emotions. The question is, how else could he do it? I mean, if we recognize the right and the wrong through our emotional reactions, then of course any attempt to identify a horribly wrong action is going to appeal to our emotions.
Paul W.,
I don’t believe you’ve answered my question in #126, at least not directly. I don’t blame you given that you seem to be defending your position on many fronts (from powerful interlocutors no less). But perhaps I might approach what’s niggling me from another angle. I’m asking you in particular seeing as you, of all those defending Sam Harris’s thesis, seem the most considered and actually interested in getting at the truth.
In The End of Faith, Sam Harris writes:
Sam Harris’s thinking has clearly moved on. He is apparently the Socrates we’ve been waiting for, and he’s come to tell us that if we want to know why we should be concerned about truth (a moral question), we need to wait for an Einstein or a Newton to figure it out. Fine. But what if science informed us that a slightly deluded population was a happier and more productive one than one consisting of individuals who exposed themselves to the brutal and uncensored truth in the manner of the most fearless philosophers? Moreover, what if science informed us that for most individuals holding a religious faith (not necessarily throwing acid in girls’ faces, but believing in a friendly caretaker up in the sky) conferred more well-being ‘units’ than not holding one? Would it then be a moral imperative for him to write an apology to his Christian Nation and implore them to take up religion again – at the expense of truth, because science has shown us that too much truth is detrimental to human well-being? It would obviously have to be a tailor-made religion because Christianity as it stands is contains both well-being enhancing and well-being inhibiting elements. But scientists could no doubt write a generic religious manual that kept in all the consoling, community-building bits and expurgated all the nasty bits.
Hmmm… this has turned more satirical than I’d planned, but I’ll leave it like this because the new Socrates-Harris does give me nightmares in which I’m a character in an Orwellian utopia, surrounded by terribly happy and productive people-scientists (philosophy and most forms of literature would be banned for their truth-giving effects), and fighting for my right to be immoral: to suffer to know the truth.
Alasdair, you’re describing Fahrenheit 451 – also, less exactly, Brave New World.
Nightmares indeed.
Jason #184:
But this is exactly the whole point, isn’t it? Harris’ primary contention is that moral matters, at least in principle, can and should be decided in a similar way as scientific matters.
There would be no such result. We do not vote to decide scientific questions, but we may still vote on what to teach our children in public schools, e.g., on whether to add a warning sticker to biology textbooks. Similarly, if ethics will become a recognised branch of science (somewhere between the social sciences, the brain sciences, and whatever else) the populace will not get to vote and decide what counts as moral fact. But of course — and indeed, it seems to be a moral fact that it is usually a good idea to organize things this way! — we should have some kind of democratic process decide what polices to adopt. Because as usual policy would be informed by the facts gleaned by the experts, not directly enforced by them. In fact, that’s very roughly how it is already that liberal democracies handle moral quandaries. Not much would change in this, except that we would be much clearer on what counts as fact and what not.
Do you also invite remorseless sociopathic criminals to expound their view of what counts as good? And seriously, how often do you need to hear the opinion of a true nihilist? (Wikipedia: “Nihilism […] is the philosophical belief that all values are baseless and that nothing can be known or communicated. It is often associated with extreme pessimism and a radical skepticism that condemns existence.”)
J. Jeffers #187: OK, let’s try to go through your four points (and I hope you had a happy Valentine! In two days I’ll be leaving for my honeymoon on the Philippine beaches, so I guess we’d better exhaust our arguments before then).
They certainly have. You may go on and say it: most societies in our past have behaved according to such grievously selfish ways. But you will agree that whatever gains their tribal polices ensured, they were quite limited. Now we know what can truly be gained when we work together, when our tribal divisions are at least partly overcome. Most of the material — and yes, moral — progress we have enjoyed in the past centuries is directly linked to our ability to overcome the tribal mindset: at the very least, the florishing of commerce and science is strongly tied to the enlargement of everybody’s Moral Circle.
With hindsight, we can now safely judge that the tribal mindset is not the best way to organise human affairs, not even for those who immediately benefit from all the pillaging and raping. Especially in modern times, this can be seen quite clearly by the ill fate of those nations that have embraced some form of other of fascism; sooner or later, people tend to flee en masse from such places.
Sorry, I don’t understand your point. What am I stalling here? To me, the heart of the matter is indeed that “merely instrumental concerns”, when understood deeply enough, are what moral questions amount to.
Yes, they’re human of course. But we consider them to be defective humans, in that, for instance, they lack the neural circuitry for empathy and restraint from violence. We try to help them insofar as their behaviour makes them harm themselves, and we equally try to deal with them (by locking them up) when they hurt others. Sociopathy is a recognised psychiatric condition. And the reason is not that they don’t share are values; rather it is that they cannot function normally in the society they’re in, to their own detriment (especially in a fair society with efficient police and judiciary). I recognize the difference is subtle, but it’s there nonetheless, because their ultimate value (i.e., their own well-being) need not be in principle incompatible with ours.
OK, sorry, I wasn’t ascribing this belief to you. I was just making the point that any moral position that wants to be normative must ultimately argue for some form or other of “common good”, or we wouldn’t recognise it as a moral position in the first place.
Well, MMR is wrong. A moral standard such as one based on honor is really always a derived product, that can ultimately be traced back to some concern (however misguided) about common well-being. As I argued above, even if the Taliban, when asked, first say that they value “honor” over their daughter’s life because that’s what God wants, in ultimate analysis they want to please God because they believe that will be in their own and in everybody’s interest. They even think that the girl’s murder is in the her (soul’s) best interest! I’m sure they would agree, if the question is put to them sufficiently clearly, and if you can get past the obfuscating theological lingo.
Therefore, if this reasoning allows for generalization as I believe, all moral systems are commensurable after all, at least in principle, in their own (ultimate implicit) terms.
Whaaat?? The case of the sociopath becomes relevant precisely when his actions get into conflict with everybody else’s. But it is even in the sociopaths’ interest to behave according to the basic rules of civil society, when that society works well. After all, while the actual proportion of sociopaths may be constant, the proportion of those acting on their base antisocial impulses goes down drastically whenever there is place an efficient police and judiciary — because they know they cannot get away with it. So if they can control themselves, they will. And on the other hand, as I have argued above, if they could set up the rules according to their immediate urges, they themselves would be worse off.
Cathyby #152:
No, it’s not moral. Why? Because your analysis of the wellbeing tradeoff in such a situation is very shallow and completely ignores all the consequences. There are very good reason why we wouldn’t want to live in a society that allows (or enforces) such things. Would you want to live in such a place? Who would? Do you think such policies would tend to create the kind of human flourishing that we generally collectively value and count as increased wellbeing? Please think about it.
After all (and I hate to Godwin, but if one must…), we have recently had some rather thorough large-scale experimenting with such systems, where individuals are stripped of their freedoms in the name of some unilaterally declared common good, where whole classes of human beings are considered expendible for the purposes of the “true” people, where the “experts” are allowed to run everything and enforce any policy they come up with without there being in place any real mechanism of checks and balances.
The gruesome results will remain forever as a warning toward such naive reckoning of “wellbeing”. So you’re attacking a strawman here, because I (or Harris or anybody else on this side of the debate) have at least given some thought about what should go into a useful reckoning of wellbeing. It is certainly not only the immediate and short-term net health gain of the majority of (surviving) citizens, as implied by your example.
Note also that, even if moral truths will eventually be recognized as having objective status and an elite of experts will start to populate the scientific faculties (as we suggest), nobody is advocating that they should get to decide on what policies we should adopt, just as it already is right now with similar matters. Namely, it seems to be a very good idea to keep the scientific and the political processes separate, and to only allow the former to inform the latter. (What I’m saying is that, even if they would demonstrably tend to be right on moral matters, to have a small unelected expert elite — say as in Plato’s Republic — unilaterally decide policies would still be, on the whole, a bad idea, and for numerous reasons; as I wrote above, this observation seems to be on its way to become itself a recognized moral fact.)
Ivo,
So, when you say people who don’t sufficiently care about the well-being of others shouldn’t have a say, you just mean we shouldn’t count their opinions when deciding on what is “good.” But, then, what is “good” is just a matter of opinion–albeit the opinions of people we’ve already decided are inclined to give us the right opinion. But that’s not a scientific definition of what is good. It’s just a poll.
If you want to say that the good is a matter for science to measure, then it’s not a matter of opinion, period. So nobody’s opinion should count. Why, then, do you explicitly exclude the opinions of people who don’t share your values?
Surely the view isn’t that the values and opinions of the scientists must be taken into account when evaluating the veracity of their scientific conclusions. If conclusions about the good are scientific conclusions, then it shouldn’t matter at all what values are had by the people expounding those views.
If you’re going to exclude certain voices just for having different values or views about well-being, and you’re not talking about voting rights, then I really don’t know what you’re talking about.
You ask, “Do you also invite remorseless sociopathic criminals [to conferences on moral philosophy] to expound their view of what counts as good?”
Honestly, I don’t know if any remorseless sociopathic criminals have ever been invited to participate in a professional conference on moral philosophy. If they were, I assume it’s because they had served whatever punishment was required by the courts and that their criminal past was not considered detrimental to their exhibited ability to contribute to the field.
If your proposed “scientific” discipline requires that you just ignore whatever part of the population disagrees with your views about well-being, then I suggest you are not talking about a scientific discipline at all.
Sorry, in case it wasn’t clear, what I meant by that last sentence was this: If your proposed “scientific” study of well-being requires that you just ignore whatever part of the population disagrees with your views about well-being, then I suggest you are not talking about a scientific discipline at all.
Just to be clear, Ivo, in case it’s not clear already: Invitations to scientific conferences and acceptances of research in peer-reviewed journals should be based on the quality of the research a person is contributing, not on their personal views about the object of study. Why should it be different when the subject is well-being?
Jason & Alasdair,
Just a quick note for the moment…
Sorry I haven’t addressed all the issues you brought up yet. I’m not ignoring you, just having trouble keeping up; I do really appreciate your hanging in there and giving me some slack on that.
Paul W,
I want to devote a post simply to the issue of disagreement over values being based on mistaken belief. So let’s call this post,
MORAL DISAGREEMENT
See, it’s not at all obvious that consequentialism is at the semantic heart of every moral system whatever. True enough, we at times find that moral belief systems all over the world refer to consequences to explain why a certain action is bad or good. But this doesn’t exhaust the kinds of reasons they give. If someone says that a woman who has been raped deserves to be killed on account of this, for bringing shame upon her family, there is a substantive disagreement there.
It doesn’t matter if their epistemology is based on the Qur’an or whatever. The reason is that we have disagreements with them over how important honor is in the first place. We have disagreements over whether we should listen to a (postulated for argument’s sake) divine being when it tells us to do things that, by your lights, they know is wrong in most other instances. We call doing something horrible because a divine being tells you to, “cowardice,” and even if we would find it mitigating (on account of being so intimidated by said divine being) we still don’t think the divine being should get to tell us to do horrible things. The honorable thing to do is to say “no” to the divine being when it expects you to throw battery acid in a little girl’s face. We have disagreements over how to assign victim responsibility for an action, and on and on and on.
All of the reasons the (asserted) rival moral systems in the world do what they do, do not reduce only to consequences. They, like us, have a sense of intrinsic right and wrong, intrinsic just deserts, etc. They believe that certain things we find acceptable deserve harsh punishment. So what if they believe this because their god told them to? They believe their god is right. But they’re wrong. They’re not only wrong, says our moral semantics, because their god doesn’t exist. They’re morally wrong to believe that a person that does something minor deserves harsh punishment, EVEN IF THEIR GOD EXISTS.
Now, let’s say that their God does exist, and tells you to throw your best friend off of a bridge so that you can have eternal life. Are you going to do it? Let’s say there is a large urban day care where thousands of children go every day. There’s about a 15-1 staff-child ratio, and the staff is made up of low-wage workers, altruistic volunteers, and college students doing community service in a program to work off their school loans. Now, God tells us, (“us” is a group of slightly larger numbers than the thousands of people in this urban day care,) that if we bomb this day care, we can have eternal life. Let’s say there really is such a god, and this god really does have the power to grant such a thing, and will go through on the promise. Should we do it?
NO!! Of course not. Why? The reason why is because It’s wrong, Morally. If we can’t account for why this is wrong, then part of our moral semantics have been cut off, which is, at least partially, a form of moral skepticism. I know you probably don’t mean for this to be the case, but the view you are defending, if it goes through, would mean that we have no reason to say such a thing is wrong, so long as the god in the hypothetical exists and makes the appropriate promises. But I thought we’ve known better than that every since the Euthyphro.
By the way,
(The next post to you I have in mind will discuss *reason-giving power, and *question begging against the sociopath. Not sure when I’ll be able to get to that one. Just want to say, in the meantime, that of the people that are defending Harris’ latest project in this thread, you’re the only one that discussing the issue with seems less-than time wasting. So although I have been ornery and used a frustrated tone with some of the other commenters, when I use bolding and exclamation marks with you I’m simply trying to signal where I think my view needs to be the most emphatic, FWIW).
Less than time wasting? That’s unclear, I think. I mean you’re the only one on your side that discussing the issue with doesn’t seem futile, Paul W.
Paul W, in response to post # 202, and delaying my post about question-begging and reason-giving power,
You wrote,
Error theory is a form of cognitivism, and skepticism, at the same time. The arguments against Harris that I’ve seen from the philosophical community charge Harris with with missing skeptical concerns, and error theory is a leading skeptical contender. If skepticism is true, then it could be that moral claims are noncognitive, or it could be that our moral claims aim for the kind of truth you and me take them to, in which case an error theory about those claims is in order. Suffice it to say for now, if there are no reason giving powers to justify our claim that those that flout what the (admittedly real) phenomena of “well-being”, then you should be able to understand the temptation of noncognitivims, at least. But more importantly, see that cognitive forms of moral skepticism can emerge from the state of affairs as well. Harris has to refute both noncognitivism and error theory. In other words, both cognitive and noncognitive forms of moral skepticism.
You continued,
I think many philosophers are peeved over the fact that even if there is a natural kind out there like the one you’re arguing for, no attempt at all has been made at explaining how that gives us the reason-giving power we need to be able to explain why people that flout well-being are wrong. Our moral semantics claim certain things for itself, (and if they don’t, then we have no business saying we can refute meta-ethical moral relativism, which Harris has, by claiming those that flout well-being are wrong) and if those claims are overreaching, then moral skepticism is the most warranted position, even if cognitivism is true (which I think it is).
Continuing on the frustration of philosophers, the claim they make is that Harris didn’t just avoid the language/jargon of academic philosophy, but the insights of the discipline as well. So in order for Harris’ defenders to avoid this charge as well, it must be that the language Harris uses is adequate to accurately express the warranted position that moral skepticism is wrong, and that science can show this to be true. So, both things, you see, 1) That he actually expresses it in *some* language, and 2) that he demonstrates his argument epistemologically. In other words, if Harris’ argument fails because he hasn’t properly understood what’s at stake with the claims he makes, then those that are defending him are misunderstanding what philosopher’s objections are as well.
For the record, I grant you the natural kind argument. That doesn’t accomplish one of the main things Harris set out to do inTML.
You say more,
“Wrong” has a meaning. I haven’t denied that. Moreover, the critiques I’ve seen of Harris from professional philosophers don’t deny that.
You continued,
This issue is not about moral philosophers having trouble with the meanings of the terms. It’s incumbent on you, having stressed the importance of ‘meaning’ so much, to explain the different between fictional meanings and empirical meanings. Just about everyone I’ve seen in this argument agrees that the words mean something. The terms in the game Dungeons and Dragons mean something. And if we try hard enough, we can show that there are real things in the world that fix the references. That doesn’t mean the entities are real. It wouldn’t mean the entities that make the game interesting were realeven if the game’s participant’s thought the entities were real.
Moral skeptics can bring themselves to call assholes by that name. And they almost always agree that their skepticism, which in many cases is indistinguishable from nihilism, offers no arguments that will prevent society from organizing itself around certain principles. Also, they won’t have trouble, when someone knocks the little old lady over and steals her purse, “what an asshole.” The trick is to distinguish purely subjective states like “I love vanilla ice cream,” from “Murder is wrong.” The latter statement claims more for itself, but if there’s no facts in the world to grant legitimacy to this impression, then moral skepticism is true. Now, noncognitivism is a thesis about what moral claims actually do. In other words, noncognitivists claims that moral statements actually express tastes or commands or some such thing. Error theorists, since they’re cognitivists, disagree with this. They say (and I agree) that moral claims refer to something real. BUT, if that thing doesn’t exist, then moral claims are all FALSE. Cognitivism says that moral statements are true or false, noncognitivism states that moral statements are not truth-apt.
Now, you haven’t refuted error theory just by picking out *something* that moral statements refer to. That something has to give reason giving power. Why? Well, first, let’s meditate for a second on the fact that you have acknowledged, in post #195, that there aren’t any special reason-granting powers. OK? Good. You’re a moral error theorist, just so you know. I know you don’t believe me, but let me continue.
The entities of Dungeons and Dragons (let’s call it D&D) really do pick something out. Namely, brain states. Whether we should be cognitivists or noncognitivists about D&D depends on whether we believe what the name given to the entities does the work the participants in D&D say they do. As for me, even if you could convince me that D&D participants believe that the entities are real, I would still be an error theorist about D&D. As it stands – and I know this analogy is a bit strained because there is technically a difference between a fictional entity and a command, or expression of taste (noncognitivists believe moral statements express these kinds of things) – I’m a non-cognitivist about D&D, which makes me a skeptic as to the entities of D&D. A non-cognitivist is a skeptic, but the reverse is not necessarily true.
You stated in your latest post to me, post# 195, that what fixes the reference to a natural kind is not a popular vote. I agree. But people can be mistaken about whether they are referring to a kind or not (as I know you agree). So the question is, what do people mean when they say that those who flout the phenomena we label “well-being” are morally wrong? It’s clear already that the activities that bring the brain states that bring the subjective feelings that bring the ways of organizing society are not what these people are aiming at. So if they say, “I can prosper as much as you, and have the same feelings you do, and my brain will act the same way yours does, only while you work to make the world more cooperative and free from child hunger, I’ll be throwing battery acid in a little girl’s face” THEN they would be wrong. But we have to be careful, because at this point we’ve only established that they’re factually wrong.
To move on past some tangential issues, let’s just say they say to us, “I actually don’t want society to be organized the way you do, and as for feelings, I’m very satisfied with mine. And brain states? I don’t care about that.” What do you say to or about this person?
People believe that those that flout our standards to this extent are morally wrong. Now, they already don’t care about our standards (as for whether it matters that they disagree, because, they believe in a strange god, I dealt with in post# 212, and axiously await a reply), so we’ve established that.
Our moral language (a linguistic habit we have gained in our moral discourse) wants to say that their decision to flout the phenomena of “well-being” is morally wrong. In order for this part of our moral linguistic habits to be justified, there has to be reason-giving powers that make it justified. Why? The reason is that our moral language claims for itself to be able to rank different kinds of satisfaction. Sadists, sociopaths, hedonists, and members of the Taliban get some satisfaction from what they do. They know they aren’t pursuing the same thing as we are. Why are they wrong? Our answer has to be non-provincial and non-question begging.
Continued in the next post…
… continued… (I guess it turns out that this and the last post wrap up everything I planned on saying to you. I’ll wait for your reply)
Now, if you understand what I’ve said above, then I’m not sure that I even have to say much about question begging against the sociopath, but just in case.. You said, in post #195:
Broken moral units? Well, from an evolutionary perspective, Im sure quite a few sociopaths have been very successful at seeing their genes make it into the next generation, and fulfilling their desires. Again, telling them they’re wrong will entail saying why they shouldn’t desire what they do.
As for the rest, morality does have a function; I agree on that. But moral discourse claims more than that. Doing justice to the main characteristics of our moral discourse is what the moral realist is charged with. (Incidentally, “quiasi-realism” is something that has been tried)
If a person is sterile, we don’t consider that to be a moral crime. If a person chooses not to reproduce, we don’t consider that to be moral crime. We can keep going with this if you want, but I think you might be catching onto to the fact that “goodness” just does not mean the exact same thing as “fitness.”
Unless you’ve already decided that these things are good (inherently preferable, and those that don’t prefer it are morally wrong) in the first place, in which case you’ve begged the question. We haven’t established that there is a natural kind that gives reasons. So if someone pursues something other than the phenomena we label “well-being” we can’t call them broken, without relying on moral judgment in the first place.
Now, you’re the best Harris defender I’ve come across, but I was a little confused to read, in post#195, this
Nowhere have I, or anyone else, said anything about sociopaths being superior. If there are no reason granting powers, then no one is superior, ergo, sociopaths aren’ superior. As for the rest, if you think Sam Harris is saying that he has no argument to demonstrate the moral wrongness of the Taliban, then I don’t know why we’ve been arguing this long. Now, I know you want to protest, and say, “morality means well-being.” BUT, when you say that Harris has capture a “part” of what the word means, well that’s not good enough! What the word also does, we claim, is show that the Taliban (and sociopaths, and hedonists, and sadists, etc) are morally wrong to prefer what they do.
If there aren’t, (as you say) special reason giving powers, then there is nothing to adjudicate between preferences, making meta-ethical moral relativism (MMR) true and therefore making moral realism false! ( if you want to argue a novel position that a kind of modest moral realism is warranted but is consistent with MMR, then we have to admit that we can’t *really* refute the Taliban, not the way we can refute Creationists on the theory of evolution). Even if I concede that sociopaths are not fit for their environment (I think many times they are) this would only show instrumental badness for the sociopath, it wouldn’t show why a society of sociopaths would be a bad thing. Notice that “bad” means that we can adjudicate between all kinds of preferences, not just that there are facts that constrain the phenomena (“well-being”) we have deemed worthy of pursuing.
I mean, seriously, if John doesn’t care about his evolutionary fitness, and just wants to get high and kill himself, is there anything wrong with those preferences? He’s already told you he doesn’t care about his fitness. Now, you can say this renders the word “moral” meaningless, but this is a facile and glib response to this problem, because we have to show more than that the word means something, we have to show that there are facts that actually do the adjudicating between preferences. Nothing you have explained shows how this would be the case. You’ve actually admitted there are no such reason-giving powers. Error theory is a form of cognitivism, and as such has a theory that does justice to what we mean by our moral terms. So George Carlin’s quote us of no use here.
“Well being” refers to certain states of individuals and societies (and for all I know, is a natural kind). There are people that prefer other things though. Some of these people even claim to hold a rival moral system and say their beliefs are morally superior to ours. Instead of hyper-focusing on the content of what we believe to be good, you should consider that “morality,” from a non-tendentious perspective, has to do with what people approve of and consider intrinsically deserving of approval and disapproval (notice this isn’t a noncognitivist definition, since I put the term “intrinsically deserving” in there).
So, there’s a different between someone saying that morality demands that we throw battery acid in a little girl’s face because Allah has willed it on the one hand, and saying on the other hand that morality refers to the mini-tornados that swirl around in my back yard when the wind blows. The former is a form of morality (we would call it “evil” and believe those that prefer it are morally wrong to do so) the latter is using a “meaningless fucikng term.”
I shouldn’t write so fast (too much coffee I guess). I cringe at reading it. The spelling, the grammar, the horror.
If there’s one thing I would like to call out for special attention, it’s the difference, that I cited at the end of my last post, between saying that morality demands that we do something horrible, on the one hand, and saying, on the other, that morality refers to the little pieces of chewing gum that remain stuck in the groves of the bottom of my shoe, even after I’ve cleaned most of the gum off.
No one is suggesting that we stop calling the practices of sadists, sociopahts, and the Taliban “bad” in our everyday lives. But if we’re going to show that theses outlook occupy a morally wrong position, (and mean that in a meta-ethically realist sense) we’re going to have to show why it’s wrong to prefer their position to ours, and this will entail more than showing that ours picks out real facts. “Not our conception” is not enough to show why they’re wrong to prefer theirs.
Just so I’m clear, the former (that we do something we would call horrible, like throwing batter acid in a little girl’s face) is defended as intrinsically preferable moral system by some, and we all it immoral. The later (the little pieces of chewing gum) makes morality…. say it with me now!
a meaningless fucking term.
Very technically, saying “morality refers to the mini-tornados that form in my back yard when the wind blows” is not meaningless. It’s idiosyncratic. But it is meaningless in the sense that Peter Beattie claims morality is made by rival moral systems. I think I’ve shown that in the relevant sense, rival moral systems don’t make the term meaningless.
“Morality is 8&njnokjsd^^nas” is meaningless, so far as I know. So maybe I should have used that, but anyway in the relevant way, the chewing gum and mini-tornado examples are good enough.
Morality is what people say is intrinsically preferable, what should be done no matter what you prefer, etc, and the content of what counts as fulfilling these generalities differs among peoples and groups. Which is why the examples that make no reference to this, (the chewing gum and mini-tornado examples) strike us as strange.
One more thing, and then I’ll stop obsessing over being mis-interpreted:
Saying rival moral systems aren’t moral at all is tendentious. What you want to say is that they’re “bad.” If that’s what you want to say, fine, knock yourself out.
The mini-tornados that form in my back yard when the wind blows, now that’s not moral. Not at all. What was it? Oh yeah, “8&njnokjsd^^nas” that’s not moral either. The former is idiosyncratic, the latter is meaningless, and neither are moral.
However rival moral systems do offer morality. For someone to say they’re meaningless is strange. When someone says that “throwing battery acid in a little girl’s face is the right thing to do when Allah commands it,” a moral claim is made, namely, in our view, a bad one. What it means is that it is intrinsically preferable to do what Allah commands, even if it causes great suffering to a little girl, and those that can’t see that are morally inferior. The moral content differs from what we find to be intrinsically preferable, (and that those that disagree are morally wrong), like ending world hunger. That’s why we say they’re bad.
We should watch out for saying things are meaningless, when it comes to adjudicating between preferences. My preferences are my preferences. You don’t have to like them, but if you’re going to say my preference are morally wrong, (in more than an everyday sense but in the “meta” sense of justifying moral realism) then you’re going to have to show me reason-giving powers. If you can’t, then part of our moral discourse has gone unaccounted for.
Ivo,
There are a lot of posts here. That’s my excuse for overlooking yours. Srsly, I thought I had scoured the thread and not seen a reply from you.
Congratulations, I hope you enjoy your Honeymoon. I’m sure that will be easy to do.
In the meantime, I’ve exhausted my time and energy replying to Paul W. I’ll include you in the group with him, of people that arguing over this topic isn’t a waste. I just thought you chose not to continue the back and forth, on account of my bad eye sight.
If I have the time and/or energy, I’ll try to respond to your post before you’re off. Perhaps you’ll find something relevant in the virtual book I’ve written to Paul W. Sorry.
Alasdair #204:
In this case, we would have to bravely face the truth… that knowing the truth is not always the best for everybody (but we already know this: who would want to argue their granny out of religious delusions on her deathbed?). But you surely see the irony here: how would we get to know this, and how would we shape policies on this discovery, if not enough people actually care about the truth of the matter? This is why respect for factual truth is such a fundamental value, and not only in science but also for the well-functioning of a liberal democracy. Even if many people would be content to live in happy delusions, you never want too many of them, especially if they get to vote and decide on things. The sobering consequences of holding false beliefs about the world are always just behind the corner, and we would need very good reasons indeed to let people walk into the unknown future with their eyes closed. Moreover, if you make a habit of wishful and sloppy thinking in “safe areas”, the habit could easily spill out into dangerous parts of decision-making space. (Apologies for chiming in on a question to Paul W.)
Jason:
OK, that’s clear now :-) . The reason to discount from moral discourse the opinion of people who don’t value well-being is the same as that for discounting from scientific discourse the opinion of those who don’t value evidence and truth: it’s because the value is fundamental to the very constitution of the discipline. Of course before doing so there should at least be some sort of common understanding that “moral science” is concerned with improving well-being. I see that (somewhat surprisingly) there is no such agreement, and that we still are assisting, at best, at the birth pangs of a strong and healthy debate on such issues (this was one of Harris’ explicit goals with TML, to initiate such a debate, and he has evidently succeeded).
Here is where the analogy with health and medicine is particularly useful: Those who don’t value physical and psychological health don’t get to speak at medical conferences, or to publish on medical journals, or to practice medicine. Is this arbitrary discrimination? No, because human health (along truth and evidence of course) is simply the defining value of the discipline. Do medical journals have an official policy of ignoring drug-abuse proponents? do conference organizers have an explicit rule of not to invite representatives of the tobacco industry? Not at all: very simply, the practitioners of medical research are not interested in what unhealthyness-defenders have to say. A medical practitioner <i>is expected</i> to value her patient’s health, and this is why those who don’t (to the degree, for instance, of ignoring well-known evidence on which drugs work and which don’t) don’t get to legally call themselves medical practitioners: they would be deceiving their clients, pretty much as in false advertising.
Because of this, I make the following prediction. If, in the future, a science of morality is really going to coalesce and gain official recognition — under any name — , moral philosophers will find themselves excluded from it, to the extent that they refuse to place common flourishing and the improved well-being of sentient creatures as the fundamental guiding principle of what should count as good (and don’t misunderstand me: I don’t wish this). More precisely, the moral philosophers who will keep redefining “good” in conflicting terms, will ipso facto exclude themselves from the discourse on morality as a fact-seeking scientific discipline.
***
OK, guys, the Philippines are calling :-) I really enjoyed reading the comments on this thread, which made me think, so I thank you all (together with our tolerant host). Having possibly developed a form of mild addiction to the debate, I might eventually be back…
Ivo,
Congratulations. I won’t hold it against you if you don’t make it back to this discussion. But, in case you do, and in case anybody else cares, I’ll respond to your last post.
You say,
Can you give me one example of a person who is capable of acting rationally in the world but who doesn’t value physical or psychological health at all? If not, then your claim is vacuous. Perhaps all you mean is that, if a person has no interest whatsoever in scientifically pursuing notions of physical and psychological health, then that person is not in a position to contribute to a scientific discussion of those topics. Fine. If somebody is not interested in offering any contributions to a science of well-being, then obviously there’s no reason to invite them to speak at a conference on the subject. So all you’re saying is that, if somebody doesn’t have any interest in contributing to the discussion, then they’re not invited to contribute to the discussion. You haven’t thereby excluded anybody. You’ve just decided not to invite people who don’t want to be invited.
The so-called “analogy” with health and medicine doesn’t seem like an analogy at all. There is no obvious difference between the concepts of well-being and health. So how could we distinguish between a scientific conference on well-being and a scientific conference on medicine? Now, you say that we don’t invite people who value physical and psychological health to speak at such conferences. My point, again, is that the personal opinions of scientists just don’t matter, so long as they’re contributing substantively to the field. So, if a scientists explicitly says he doesn’t think well-being is fundamental to morality, and that he doesn’t think concern about well-being exhausts of notions of right and wrong, but is still interested in contributing to medical science and has demonstrated a capacity to contribute to the field–let’s say they’re just doing it for the money, regardless of whether or not it makes the world a better place–I say the science of well-being/medicine would benefit from their presence. It just doesn’t matter what their personal opinions are. What matters is their ability to contribute to the scientific discourse. If you start excluding people just for not sharing your values or opinions, even though they have some interest in contributing to the discussion–and even though they exhibit a capacity to contribute to the discussion–then you’re breaking a basic principle of scientific integrity.
You say,
It’s not that simple. First of all, you’re not just discounting people who don’t value well-being. (I don’t think you can find one rational person who says they don’t value well-being at all.) You’re discounting people who don’t value it above all else, who don’t regard it as the sole factor in considering questions of right and wrong. Second of all, if your “moral science” is just like any other science, then the only values which should be fundamental to the discipline should be shared by all the sciences. Adding another fundamental value which is not shared by any other scientific discipline makes it unlike any other scientific discipline. Moreover, the way in which it is supposed to be different is problematic. First, because the very notion of “well-being” is problematic. It is not a scientifically respectable concept (unless it just means health), so the idea of excluding people from the discussion based on their views on well-being is unscientific. Second, because the idea that right and wrong should be defined solely in terms of well-being is problematic. It doesn’t match the way people seem to think and talk about right and wrong. So your “science” of right and wrong is likely to end up making prescriptions which just don’t seem right to a great many people. You might just dismiss those people from consideration–but, then, you’re talking about forcing policy decisions on people without giving them the right to vote. Right? It’s a matter of voting, I think, even though you say it isn’t. Because, if it isn’t a matter of voting, then all your science can do is make prescriptions about well-being and leave it to the public to decided whether or not it is right or wrong to follow those prescriptions.
J. Jeffers (#190) – You specifically asked me to revisit your comment in #174. I’ll try to be brief in responding to a couple of specific points.
See, the sociopath does not desire suffering, but pleasure.
And inasmuch as he does, we are concerned with what he wants, not with what is right for someone in his situation to do. Morality by definition cannot admit idiosyncratic answers. I elaborated on this in #121 above. You would be right to say, though, I think, that Harris doesn’t use this argument.
And “bad” can mean something, but it must mean something more than what we choose not to prefer.
Okay, this is probably the crucial point in Harris’s argument, namely that conscious creatures cannot prefer pain, anguish, and death. There are two prongs to his argument, as I see it, one logical and one semantic: we cannot prefer death (and, I would say, by extension obvious debilitating disease), because that would relieve us of the very status of creatures; and we cannot prefer something bad, unless there is something good attached to it which is the ultimate reason for our preference—lest either ‘bad’ or ‘prefer’ lose any meaning. Maybe this doesn’t cut it for you, argument-wise, but I think we should at least be able to agree on the semantic point.
Now, for one thing, I was referring to a talk Sam Harris gave where he explicitly asked for a premise to be granted, and it’s a premise that is in dispute.
I don’t think we are clear enough about what Harris actually said. He gave a couple of arguments (the ones I have summarized) the led him to a conclusion (‘well-being is the only thing we can value, and its correlates must be in the brain’). He then says that this is all we would have to grant him in order for his argument to succeed that science can determine human values. But this asking to be granted a premise is in fact asking for the preceding arguments and their conclusion to be accepted. This is why I said his conclusion wasn’t free-floating. If he had just said, ‘I need this premise X, so please grant me that it is correct’, then I would indeed have to stop writing about philosophy if I thought that appropriate. But the point is that Harris in effect says that once we accept the arguments and his conclusion (for which ‘grant me this premise’ is only shorthand), then everything else follows straightforwardly. It might, of course not actually follow, but that’s a different point.
Saying their preferences are “not our conception of what we should prefer” doesn’t not cut it.
But it does sort of cut it in the case of ‘health’ and ‘finding out how the world works’, doesn, it? Somebody could, of course, just as easily say, ‘What is truth to me?’ But that person would only thereby have excluded himself from talking about, let alone doing, science. He could say, ‘What is being able to walk and not be in pain every second of my life to me?’ But that person either doesn’t know, or is confused about, what health is. (All of these are Harris’s arguments.)
I hope this makes it clearer to you that I am actually interested in the truth. (I found your assertion to the contrary a little patronizing, by the way. I don’t think that’s called for.) And by no means do I think that Harris’s arguments are unassailable. I think they are at least apropos and plausible, but they might be superseded. To discard them, however, would have to be conditional on seeing compelling reasons for doing so. If so far I haven’t found yours compelling, maybe that’s because they’re not good enough yet—and not because I am being wilfully obstinate or not interested in the truth. Which I hope you will take as the friendly invitation it was meant to be. :)
Peter Beattie,
I’ll try to to deal each point you made, such as tone and what not, and whether Harris asked for a controversial premise to be granted, etc. But for now, on the most pressing matter, you said,
To this I have to say “What?!” I wish I had known this from the start. See, if you could have gotten Sam Harris to say this from the start, I bet you the vast bulk of the frustration from philosophers would have been avoided. I mean, do my eyes deceive me? Did you just say that we’re not concerned “with what is right from someone is his situation to do?” when “his” refers to a sociopath? Seriously? Is it that you’re acknowledging I’m right or is it that you deny that our moral terms mean stop say that a sociopath is morally wrong to do what he does, even given his situation. Either assertion on your part would surprise me, but I suppose I am interested in which one you’ll choose. Let me re-emphasize what you’ve said: You said, in reference to the sociopath, that we’re not concerned “with what is right for someone in his situation to do.”
I mean, he wants what he wants. I admit that we’re concerned, but that’s only because if we don’t watch out, he’ll kill us. Then again, we would have killed the Nazi’s, so just having the desire to preserve life against aggressors doesn’t give you a special claim to moral goodness. Goodness, says me, has something to say about what is right for someone in the sociopath’s position to do, but perhaps you deny that. I mean, we all know that it can be instrumentally beneficial for the sociopath to do all kinds of things. So if by what is “good” for someone in the sociopath’s position you mean merely what’s means-end good, then I agree we don’t defer to what’s instrumentally suited to the sociopath’s sociopahtic goals. The problem is, our moral semantics demands that it’s wrong for the sociopath to want what he wants, and do what he does, even if his actions are properly means-end tailored to his sociopathic wants. What fact can we appeal to that justifies this judgment? Or are you saying what I think you might be? That we really aren’t concerned with saying the sociopath is morall wrong, just that we want to protect ourselves from him? You continued,
But conscious creatures sometimes do prefer death, even in what we say is the prime of their lives. They do. You are aware that people commit suicide, yes? Sorry to be so condescending, but I just fail to see how you can draw any other moral from suicide, other than that people sometimes prefer suicide. I’m preemptively anxious that you’re going to say they have some sort of problem that makes them defective, but that’s putting the cart before the horse. I mean, perhaps the person that wants to die wants the relief of suffering, and that’s the attending good you say must be present, but see, the people that do horrible things, sociopaths, sadists, and the life, get some sorts of satisfaction out of what they do. It’s not as if sleeping with thousands of women and gaining fame and fortune are PAINFUL per se, just many (but not all the) times evil. Yet many rulers in world history have lived this way.
Sadistic pleasure is still pleasure, and is therefore not painful. To rank the kinds of pleasure – the sublime, warm-fuzzy kind some people prefer, over the hedonistic and sadistic pleasures of many people who have roamed the earth taking from others while living “high on the hog” – is a substantive moral judgment in the first place, even though said moral judgment has not been demonstrated as factual and based on anything beyond being merely instrumental reasoning, which the Nazi’s shared with us (which shows that instrumental reasoning is a mere means-end tool, as amoral as a hammer).
I’m sorry, but before I continue this ‘back and forth’, can I just check whether anyone here, on either side of the metaethical moral relativism divide, knows whether Sam Harris has addressed this issue, anywhere:
If we somehow achieve some broad consensus on what ‘well-being’ means and then agree that it ought to be pursued, can science determine whose well-being should take precedence, and by how much at the expense of the other? A lot of my thinking seems to end up in this cul-de-sac: how much individual well-being should we sacrifice for collective well-being? It’s the experience of one mind (which science could conceivably measure) versus the experience of many minds (also measurable).
Ophelia in an excerpt from her review at #32 illustrates my problem perfectly with that quote from Patricia Churchland. Simon Blackburn also alluded to this problem at The Great Debate, referencing Peter Singer’s expanding circle. ‘How can science ever tell us where the circumference of that circle should be drawn?’ is perhaps another way of stating the question. (I understand even Peter Singer isn’t certain where the line should be drawn, at least practically.)
I scoured Sam Harris’s response to his critics in the Huffington Post (the birthday present for his daughter discussion wasn’t enlightening), and searched Russell Blackford’s site as well, but there doesn’t appear to be a substantive response to this ‘individual versus collective well-being’ question from Harris. And it’s pretty important when you think about it, considering how many moral decisions, both political and personal, involve a trade-off of these values. Anyone?
Peter Beattie,
You also wrote,
I’m not sure if you’ve had the time or inclination to read my last hand full of posts to Paul W, but I’m all for using science to understand the (admittedly) real phenomena we have labeled “well-being.” I believe there are certain brain states that accompany certain actions, and certain subjective states do as well. I don’t think the member of the Taliban that throws battery acid in a little girl’s face gets the same feeling I do when I help a little old lady across the street. Harris may have made these arguments, but that’s not where it ends.
I have actually answered the point about science several times. And not one person has answered. I’ve explained that no discipline is justified at bottom the way people often take morality to be, so offering this as a reductio ad absurdum of arguments like the one I offer don’t accomplish anything. When Harris or you say that no field of endeavor could be justified if the kind of skepticism I’m applying goes through, I say “RIGHT!” But see that doesn’t mean we should stop doing science. We want to do science, so we do science. Good enough for me, and should be good enough for you.
Now, as for truth, I wish you had read my posts (which are only a few up the screen right now) explaining the difference between saying “Morality is the gum that remains stuck in the grooves of the bottom of my shoe even after I’ve scraped off the rest of the gum,” on the one hand, and saying “Moral goodness demands that when Allah wills something, we should do it even if it’s throwing battery acid in a little girl’s face.” The former makes morality a “meaningless fucking term,” (actually idiosyncratic) while the latter is an example of a moral claim. We call it a “bad” claim.
Morality comes packed with (asserted) reason giving power. The reason I say this is that it claims for itself the ability to rank preferences, even if the sociopath is defining morality differently. Where so we get this power? I can’t help but think no one on your side understands this, because I haven’t seen an argument (not even one) that addresses it. That’s not only true of this thread, but of all the discussion I’ve seen. Do you understand that morality claims the ability to rank preferences, and claims that those that choose to pursue preferences different from the ones we say are right are morally wrong to do so?
If not, then this doesn’t ease my frustration with Sam Harris, because this is the kind of thing he could have communicated had he chose to. If you do understand that, then either you have an explanation for what gives us the power to accurately say someone shouldn’t chose to flout “well-being” or you don’t think this part of our moral discourse can be justified (in which case you would be some sort of moral skeptic, and would have no business defending TML).
Peter Beattie,
As for tone and the rest, I know you think I became cantankerous first, but if I’m right that Harris has caused confusion on the issue by assuring his audience that he’s not keeping any important philosophical insights from them on this topic, then those that defend Harris are living proof that what he did was intellectually irresponsible. I realize that I have to convince you in order for this to go through, but I think you can agree in principle that that’s what’s at stake. Therefore this is not just fun “discussion” but an issue that is near and dear to people’s life-passions. So, whether the critiques from philosophers go through will show whether the critiques Pigliucci offers are warranted. If they are, then it seems like many of the things you’ve said in your post are.. well.. let me just leave that there for now.
Anyway when you posted what you did to Pigliucci, perhaps you thought you were only talking about him, but it’s like you used a shotgun, rather than a sniper’s rifle; the way you talked about the issue (saying Pigliiucci’s critique that Harris missed philosophical insights was “predictable,” and what not) ushered in more than just Pigliucci, but those that agree with his core critiques.
When I say that each person that had posted to your reply thought all the critiques to Harris were unfair, I jumped in, and decisively. From there you responded, “perhaps you haven’t been all eyes then.” As we went on and on, you asserted that I was not responding to arguments. But see IF I’m right about Harris missing important insights, then perhaps you’re not familiar enough with the issue to know whether or not the language I’ve been using is responsive or not. I blame Sam Harris for that, since he had a chance to educate people on the depth of the issue, but didn’t. Now, I know you don’t agree with that, else how could you be making the arguments you have. But what hinges on the outcome of the argument is whether your whole argument to Pigliucci, and the frustration you showed to his argument in your post, is warranted.
But, I’m very calm and relaxed today. The sun is out for the first time in a long time.
As for premises and whether Harris asked for one to be granted (which he did, you admit, but state that he didn’t mean it literally), I mean, maybe I’ll get to that if I have the time or inclination, but it’s not nearly as important as the two posts of mine above (#’s 225 and 227, but especially the former).
Oh, and, I don’t remember saying you don’t care about truth. But I’ve written a thousand things, so, if you can show me, I can either apologize or more thoroughly explain what I really meant.
Alasdair Cameron,
I’m afraid all you’re going to get in reply from the other side is that Harris hasn’t promised that we can solve any and all imaginable moral questions.
I think we both know that the question of whose well-being cuts to the core of the issue, but I think the answer I’ve just given is the best you’re going to get. That or what you’ll get is a repeat of a more substantive (and in question) moral claim about how everyone’s well-being is important, and we approximate that goal as closely as we can.
But your question is compelling to me, but then again, I agree with you fundamentally, I think. So that may have to come with a grain of salt for others.
The thing is, if we say society is more important (or vice versa for that matter) we’ve made a judgment between the two that isn’t recommended by pure scientific fact alone. And since many people that flout the well-being of others still lives very pleasurable lives, (and therefore are not suffering, unless you assert their pleasure is “lesser” which science hasn’t shown) some sort of substantive moral ranking has to take place. I think a lot of people miss this.
Oh yeah, I think you may get the answer that individual and group well-being is not in conflict, and to the extent that it is, well, Harris never said we could solve every problem. So even if your concern isn’t met, well, that’s OK for Harris too, say his defenders.
Peter Beattie,
I do regret the tone of the discussion. But I suppose I can’t help from being condescending when I say I’m not sure if your side understands. See no one ever responds to the point that sadists and sociopaths can have as much pleasure (maybe even more, on one scale) as anyone else. See that shows that they’re not advancing a preference for maximum suffering for everyone. They have a preferences for their own desire satisfaction. It does not say that they prefer suffering, it says that they don’t care about causing the suffering of others in order to fulfill their desires (sometimes this suffering is the fulfillment of their desires). In the case of some moral systems that differ from ours, horrible things are defended as what should be preferred by good people. And in those cases, the people advancing those moral systems are not advocating for maximum suffering for everyone, only for some. We have to show why these people (sociopaths, sadists, Taliban acid throwers) are morally wrong to prefer what they do. It’s CLEAR that what they prefer is not the cluster of feelings, brains states, and societal states of affairs we prefer, but we have to explain not just that their preferences are different, but why they shouldn’t prefer those things in the first place.
If we can’t, then at least a partial skeptical thesis is in order, which would contradict TML, since in that case we couldn’t refute sociopaths, sadists, and Taliban acid-throwers the way we can Creationists on the issue of evolution (which, again, is that like the radical skeptic, Creationism fails to test of abduction, in other words, reference to the best explanation).
J. Jeffers (#225) – Come on J., you can do way better than that. Don’t just run off with the least sympathetic (and might I say, plausible) interpretation of a sentence that pops into your head. Please have a look at #121: it says there plain and simple that a consideration of what any single person wants is by definition not one of morality, but of mere preference; it becomes one of morality only if one considers what would be the right thing to do for a generic person in the same situation.
Also, you go on and on about the sociopath’s pleasure as if that were the same thing as well-being. This charge has been false since it was levelled against Bentham, for crying out loud.
And as to suicide: first, those wanting to commit suicide want to avoid a particularly low level of well-being, it is safe to assume, I think; and second, utilitarians have stressed this (related) point for ages that their notions of ‘flourishing’ and ‘well-being’ are considerations of potential. As Harris says on p. 34, “Just how fulfilled is it possible for us to be, personally and collectively?” This speaks to Pigliucci’s Brave New World-ish scenario of drug-induced supreme happiness. Apart from the above-mentioned mistake of equating happiness, let alone mindless happiness, with well-being, there is the question of whether some other attainable state of being would be more fulfilling for a human being endowed with consciousness. For that to be adjudged, however, the alternative state has to be experienced—at least by someone in a comparable situation. Just considering one single state a person just happens to find herself in, cannot do justice to our considerations of morality; there has to be at least some exploration of the question of what in a particular situation it is possible for a human being to achieve (in terms of ‘flourishing’ aka ‘well-being’).
J. Jeffers (#230) – I do regret the tone of the discussion. But I suppose I can’t help from being condescending when I say I’m not sure if your side understands. See no one ever responds to the point that sadists and sociopaths can have as much pleasure (maybe even more, on one scale) as anyone else.
Then I’m glad that my gut told me to continue the conversation, because it apparently thought you were at least honestly engaging. You could of course have avoided the condescension by resorting to foot-stomping—that’s what I usually do in those situations. ;>
As to the lack of a response to the sociopath: I did respond, if perhaps not explicitly, in comment #121. Oh, and just now in #231. :)
Peter Beattie,
Responding to #231,
I am asserting that morality claims for itself the power to adjudicate between preferences. I am not saying that you have defined preferences and morality as the same thing.
You either do or don’t believe the morality claims the power to adjudicate between preferences. If you do think morality claims such a thing, you’re a cognitivist, like me.
See this is another example of what’s frustrating: I can’t imagine how you read what I wrote and concluded that I claimed (or implied, or any remotely similar thing) that well-being and pleasure are the same. I have gone to great lengths to state that I realize that they’re not the same thing. Also I’ve gone to great lengths to state that I understand that pleasure for one person does not do justice to our conception of morality.
I’m sorry to say, it may be that my side is wrong, but I really don’t think most you’re responses even count as responsive.
See I know the sociopath, sadist, and Taliban acid thrower prefer something other than than the (admittedly real) phenomena of well-being. That’s abundantly clear. Why are they wrong to do so? I’ve been pleading for a non-question begging answer for a long time now, (though I realize I’m never going to get it).
Peter Beattie, saying “different from the phenomena that we label ‘well-being'” is not the same as saying “morally wrong.” There is a distinction between saying, “different from” and “wrong in comparison to.” It’s your responsibility to explain how you’re justified in saying the latter, and how you’re not just saying the former. .. I mean, seriously, does what I’m saying even seem like English right now to you? Or does it seem like “Har bar har bar har bar bee boop?”
When you reply, are you going to address the issue of reason-giving power?
When you reply, are you going to address my points about the difference between meaningless, idiosyncratic, and rival statements that admittedly all use the word “morality?” That’s in #’s 215-219. If that’s too much, the last two (219,219) probably crystallize the issue best.
If, after reading 219, you claim that if you were an anthropologist studying the Taliban that you would still conclude, as you do now, that the example of acid throwing (and it’s attending linguistic justifications) is not even an example of the human activity of morality at all, then I think you would make an extremely tendentious social scientist. I mean, what would you call the discourse of justifying acid throwing, which is underwritten by the belief that acid throwing is good when Allah commands it? Would you call this activity… um… like, eating, hunting, signing… farting?
Or would you, rightly, call it a moral discourse, and then go your merry way and condemn it as a morally bad belief system?
Do you really not see difference between non-moral and immoral statements, like I illustrated in 218 and 219?
Peter Beattie,
I’ll offer you a hint. “Wrong” refers to some goal, or makes a comparison by already having a standard to go by. If standards are different, and you still say you can show that one system is “wrong” then it’s on you to show facts that give that adjudicating power.
It’s true that sociopaths, sadists, and Taliban acid-throwers are wrong by our standards. That’s one of the most obvious propositions I can imagine. We don’t have to listen to the normative moral relativists who say we should value all moral systems equally, because that’s stupid (although the meta-ethical moral relativists have a strong argument, so strong no one is the entire discussion over TML has refuted it).
But what of the fact that the systems make different moral claims? They adhere to different moral propositions. So they are, by definition, not our standards. So by their standards, their system is better! It’s not meaningless to say that another system is morally preferable. What’s meaningless is “morality is jniudbnvaijd” or charitably, “morality is the mini tornados that form in my back yard when the wind blows.”
What you have to do, when defending not only cognitivism, but realism, is to show how we can reach outside our standard and judge the differing standards others use. Or, put another way, why are our standards so universally valid that those that choose different standards are wrong for doing so. Just so we’re clear, the (admittedly) factual things we pick out when we say “well-being” are not what those rival systems are pursuing. We know they’re different. Tell me why they’re wrong to be different. Just saying “it’s not well-being” only tells me that they’re different.
I hate that I feel the need to do this, but I want to remove as many obstacles as I can.
So, “wrong” rightly refers to some goal. That’s what’s indisputable (what’s in question is the additional question of whether “wrong” can refer to adjudicating between bottom line goals). What that means is that if evaluative terms are justified, an obvious way they’re justified by reference to some goal. But the clash between goals and bottom line beliefs are what’s at stake in moral disagreements. One says one goal is better to pursue, or some activity is morally better, the other says another goal is better to pursue, or some other activity is morally better. Both standards can be justified by themselves. The clash between them is what’s at issue.
HOWEVER, if we, in our common moral discourse, have presuppositions that claim that not only by our standards, but by some larger standard, other moral systems are wrong, then we need to show that there’s some fact that justifies that belief, if in fact we’re going to justify that belief. You could say morality has no such presuppositions, but then it’s a little late for that, since we’ve talked so long about refuting the Taliban. You may not like the “larger standard” language, but then you would at least have to admit that we think our standard is the right one (not just one among many, which undoubtedly it’s is at least that).
OK, that’s it for a little while. Maybe tomorrow or the next day. Or the next.. I need to do other things, get some perspective, relearn grammar and spelling, etc…
J. Jeffers (#233) – See this is another example of what’s frustrating: I can’t imagine how you read what I wrote and concluded that I claimed (or implied, or any remotely similar thing) that well-being and pleasure are the same. … See I know the sociopath, sadist, and Taliban acid thrower prefer something other than than the (admittedly real) phenomena of well-being. That’s abundantly clear. Why are they wrong to do so?
Okay, I think I might have got you wrong then. If I understand you correctly (here’s hoping ;>), your sociopath almost explicitly shuns well-being for his own pleasure. I get that, but then my argument from #121 and #231 would kick in: that, by definition, is not morality. If we’re talking about preference and personal pleasure, then we’re talking about the question, ‘What do I want to do?’ Questions about morality, on the other hand, are of the form, ‘What is the right thing to do for someone in this situation?’ I think this completely does away with the sociopath—but at least you should be able to see clearly what I think is the point. :)
When you reply, are you going to address the issue of reason-giving power?
Uh, I would, if I knew what you meant by that. (I didn’t get it from your previous posts either, I’m afraid.) ;>
J. Jeffers (#234) – Just so we’re clear, the (admittedly) factual things we pick out when we say “well-being” are not what those rival systems are pursuing. We know they’re different. Tell me why they’re wrong to be different.
I think we are actually really getting clearer on this. :)
I think Harris puts two distincts arguments here, and I tend to find them plausible enough. One would be an evolutionary argument of sorts, in that if it is correct that humans do in fact strongly converge in their moral judgements (which of course could be shown not to be the case), i.e. that there are universals in our common moral nature, then it could be said to be wrong to deviate from these universals to the extent that the deviant forms directly oppose the evolved majority forms.
The other is still the same that I keep referring to, Harris’s introduction to his Great Debate talk. And maybe would should just take these one at a time to see if we agree with them. 1. Morals must be rooted in, and talked about in terms of, consciousness. 2. If ‘good’ and ‘bad’ mean anything, then we can picture a state of universal pain, anguish, and quick death that we would have to call ‘supremely bad’. 3. Any substantive movements away from that state (i.e. toward more ‘well-being’) would have to have correlates in the brain, ergo be accessible to scientific study.
I think 1 and 2 can be contested, but so far I don’t see how it can be done without either abandoning good faith or using completely idiosyncratic language, which latter would again put one outside the definitional boundaries of morality.
Would your sceptic not be convinced even if he accepted steps 1 to 3?
I have a question for those who support Sam Harris. This is from his TED-TALK
Now suppose someone doesn’t care about well-being, however he cares about scientific results. As I understand Harris, science should be able to provide such a person with scientific date and rational arguments that would lead to the conclusion he should value well-being, without starting from other values.
Now my question is, how would those scientific results and arguments look like? I don’t ask for details, a sketch of how one thinks science could procede would be enough for the moment. In other words how would you think science can proceed to bridge the is-ought gap.
Ivo (reference #221),
I don’t disagree with what you say, but as we contemplate these complicated projections, we need to hold in the forefront of our minds Harris’s thesis, namely that science can determine human values. What you and I seem to be agreeing on is that the pursuit of truth is conducive to some people’s individual well-being, whereas the pursuit of faith (at the expense of truth) is conducive to other people’s individual well-being. Then suddenly we’re talking about the effects of pursuing less truth to the well-being of the collective and we intuitively assume that we should look after our society’s well-being (by keeping the pursuit of truth alive). But this necessarily involves a major sacrifice of individual well-being in the case of the staunchly religious who care little for truth. (There are surely examples that will illustrate this point better than the pursuit of truth, but seeing as we’re on it…)
Now, as I discussed in #226, with J. Jeffers responding in #229, Sam Harris does not seem to have an answer to the question as to how we balance individual well-being against collective well-being – to wit: how can science determine how much individual well-being is it ‘moral’ to sacrifice to the collective good? Of course the whole problem of ‘whose well-being?’ is even more complicated than that. Consider just this one example that I got from here:
To be frank, if Harris’s best response to this crucial issue is, as J. Jeffers believes, that he never said he (that is, ‘science’) could solve every moral problem, then I really don’t understand how he can make the claims: 1. that science can determine (as opposed to inform, guide, enlighten, advance, etc.) human values, and 2. that Hume’s is-ought distinction is not relevant to the discussion (i.e. that metaethical moral skepticism is debunked).
@Peter Beattie # 224
Say I allow you those two points. That gives us creatures which prefer their personal wellbeing over their personal loss of wellbeing. What then propels them (us) towards caring about the wellbeing of everyone else? Why don’t we just hold the position that what is moral is to maximise our OWN wellbeing? This could allow for caring about kin (since we potentially get joy from our children or near relations) so evolution gives no reason this is not a plausible alternative.
(Alasdair Cameron has, of course been making a similar point, where do we draw the circle of well-being).
Peter Beattie,
It does seem like we’re making progress toward understanding each other. I am breathing a sigh of relief.
Let me draw a line between the Taliban acid thrower and the sociopath/sadist, dealing with the former first:
THE TALIBAN
The Taliban do offer an answer to the question “What is the right thing to do for someone in this situation?” Namely, a father in the situation of having one of his daughters raped. The answer: kill her.
Now, I think I can explain reason-giving power this way: Our common moral discourse claims that the person that is throwing acid in a little girl’s face has a reason not to. But clearly the person doing the acid throwing is not motivated by this reason (if there is a reason not to, the acid thrower has missed it). We say that people that aren’t motivated by these reasons are bad (or, more charitably, “defective”). But they claim the same thing about us.
The posts I was trying to usher you over toward were ones where I explained the difference between saying “It is morally right to do what Allah commands, even when it involves throwing acid in a little girl’s face” on the one hand and saying on the other, “It is morally best when I scrape all the gum off the bottom of my shoe, even the gum between the grooves.” The former is a moral claim, the latter is an example of an idiosyncratic use of the term “morally.” A meaningless use of the term would be “morality is jnjbnduifbiw.” For our purposes, idiosyncratic uses and meaningless uses are the same in spirit; they both are not moral.
However the sentence that claimed it is best to do what Allah commands (even when it’s something we find horrible) is a claim about what is praiseworthy and what is intrinsically good. If we say that’s not an example fo moral discourse at all, then what is it?
SOCIOPATHS AND SADISTS
This is probably an even better place to explain reason giving power. The sociopath flouts our standards all together, and doesn’t even use the language of moral justification (the way the Taliban does). But we still have to explain why the sociopath has a reason not to do what he does. The sociopath wants you to behave in a morally responsible manner, but the sociopath has no intention of returning the favor. The sociopath wants respect and consideration, but if it benefits him, will fail to show it in return, with no remorse (the respect and consideration the sociopath desires is not based on any commitment on the part of the sociopath that he deserves respect on account of his humanity). Notice sociopaths are not mentally incompetent (well, some courts might say they are, but they get along just fine). I mean, sociopaths can be highly intelligent, and can manipulate scenarios to their favor, in ingenious fashion.
The sociopath has a whole different set of goals. They are not our goals, but they’re not goals that have nothing to do with morality whatsoever. Take the sadist, for example. The sadist doesn’t just want to eat Chinese food and play video games (which, in and of themselves, are non-moral goals). The sadist get particular pleasure from hurting people. But that’s morally wrong, says us (so this is an immoral goal, as opposed to a non-moral goal). So we’re not dealing with something entirely different from morality, like “morality is the removal of the gum from the bottom of my shoe,” or “morality is jbndioubsduvn.” Now, it’s true, you’re right: the sociopath and/or sadist don’t have a theory of what’s generally right at all. I might add that in this way, they are are not like the Taliban.
The reason the cases are similar is that we have to show that they have a reason not to do what they do. And if they aren’t motivated by that reason (which clearly, they’re not) then we have to, in a non-question begging way, explain why they’re wrong to not be motivated by this reason. If you’re wondering why this is so important, imagine saying, “It is right for you to do this, but you have no reason to do it.” If you can bring yourself to say that, then of what force is your criticism of them? If you claim that they do have a reason, then what is it?
Please notice that insofar as people have instrumental reasons to be bad or good, this is largely a matter of circumstance or happenstance. It may be that in a stable liberal democracy, it’s in our interests to be cooperative moreso than in other systems (I’m not sure, but maybe). But what about those who have fulfilled their desires by raping and pillaging, and/or by manipulating and using? These people are not suffering, they are gaining pleasure and achieving their goals. You can say this has nothing to do with morality, but it does. See, when they fulfill play video games, this has nothing to do with morality. When they rape, it does. Now it’s true that the sociopath and/or sadist isn’t challenging us rhetorically, and so is different from the Taliban in this way. But we have to say more than that the unashamed rapist is not moral, we have to say the unashamed rapist is immoral. Playing video games is not moral (in and of itself, it is neutral) but raping is immoral. The different you’re looking for is reason-giving power.
The rapist has a reason not to rape, says our common moral discourse. Now, if the rapist has a goal to rape, one way to judge the rapist is by saying he effectively achieves his goals. You could say the rapist is effectively tailoring his means to his ends. This shows, again, that moral force is not derived from means-end reasoning, since a horrible goal can be judged as effective this way… so “morally good” means more than “effective” (at least not without starting with a moral goal to begin with, which is, of course, the point of the is-ought problem). But even if the rapist is effective at tailoring his means to his ends, we say he’s morally wrong to have rape as an end. Now, all things that are not moral are not immoral (my preference for mint chocolate chip ice cream is not moral, but it’s not immoral). I have no reason one way or another to prefer mint chocolate chip, I just do.
However, we claim that people do have a reason to not have rape as one of their ends. But people, even successful people, have raped before. They haven’t all gotten caught. As the believers would say “the wicked have prospered.” There’s no use arguing over that; it’s undeniable. But even when people are successful, even when they achieve their goals, and even when they enjoy themselves in the process, we say they have a reason not to.
SUMMARY
Now, you could say they don’t have a reason, but then what are you criticizing them over? Are you saying, “I hate that you rape people, but you have no reason not to.” If you’re ready to say that, your status as a moral realist is in question. You could say “I hate that you rape people, and those that don’t see a reason not to rape are defective.” Now, if you said that, then you would retain your status as a moral realist. But then you must answer the question, “what makes them wrong/defective for not being motivated by that reason?”
Are you prepared to say that “well-being” is a true phenomena, but offers no reason to adhere to it for those that choose to flout it? if you did say that, then why are they wrong, if, after all, they have no reason not to flout it?
If there are no reason-giving powers to give people that don’t prefer “well-being” then our critiques of them are awfully damn provincial. If they are, then you’ve not a service to our self-conception of our moral discourse. In which case the only decent thing to do is become a moral skeptic, remain a moral realist by throwing your hands up and adhere to some mysterious properties, retain a modest-realism but part company with Harris’ latest bold thesis, or withdraw from the public debate and go back to the drawing board.
Now, the issue of intrinsic reason-giving powers (or the lack thereof) is important in both the case of the sociopath/sadist and the case of the Taliban acid thrower. The reason is that they both are doing things we claim they shouldn’t be doing.
But the Taliban actually claim that their system is moral. Morality is what’s praiseworthy/condemnable, what you should/shouldn’t do, what’s deserving/undeserving, etc. Now, the content of morality of what counts as what is the disagreement between us and the Taliban. Now with the Taliban, on the cases we disagree with them about in the praiseworthy/condemnable, what should/shouldn’t be done, what’s deserving/undeserving scales, we’re on polar opposite ends. But what you’re saying is that they don’t have morality at all in these instances? This is why I asked what you would call it? If it’s not moral, then it’s like something that’s morally neutral. If it’s immoral, then it’s somehow different than something that’s morally neutral, but how?
If your response is that all morally good means is “not well-being” then I have to say that my blue shirt is not well-being either. So is it immoral? I think what you want to do at this point, (if you’re not just going to give up and say I’ve been right all along), is abandon the thesis that the Taliban make morality “a meaningless fucking term” and say that the Taliban offer a system that possesses low levels of well-being (even though they do offer an intelligible system that possesses the qualities of moral systems, priase/blame, etc). That’s fine. As a matter of fact, when well-being is defined carefully and non-tendentiously, I agree.
But clearly everyone does not find that our belief system, and it’s results when implemented, offers the best system in terms of what’s praiseworthy, condemnable, etc. So it’s not as if they have no conception of what morality is. Now, “well-being” is the content of what we consider morally good. It doesn’t follow that people that disagree over this content have no moral beliefs.
I’ve tried to show how the Taliban and sociopath/sadist do have differences, but I do want to stress that ultimately they present us with the same problem:
What reason do these people have to pursue the (admittedly real) phenomena of well-being? In many case, these people are effective pursuers of their goals. In spite of his instrumental efficacy, we have to say they have a reason not to have those goals in the first place. We can’t just say they aren’t suited to our goals, because that’s neither here nor there, since they have their own goals. if morality grants no such reasons to people in question, then what’s the criticism of them supposed to show?
Again, are you willing to be left with the these rhetorical scraps, “I hate that you rape people, and I sympathize with the suffering you have caused, but I can find no reason why you shouldn’t have done it.” ???? If you said that, you may still be able to collect those scraps and piece together some kind of modest moral realism. But it wouldn’t be the bold kind Harris is going for.
Alasdair Cameron,
The issue of determination as opposed to science informing, advancing, etc, is core. You would think the idea that science can determine human values is too ambitious. But early in the popular presentation, Harris said,
“It’s thought that science can help us get what we value, but it can never tell us what we ought to value. Consequently I think most people, I think most people probably here, think that science will never answer the most important questions in human life. Questions like, ‘What is worth living for?’ ‘What is worth dying for?’ ‘What constitutes a good life?’ So I’m going to argue that this is an illusion. That the separation between science and human values is an illusion.”
Now, I agree that science and human values aren’t completely separate, and I agree that there is some interaction between them, or else this wouldn’t be one of my favorite books: http://www.amazon.com/Collapse-Value-Dichotomy-Other-Essays/dp/0674013808
But Harris has consciously chosen to lead with his chin here by defending the crudest and boldest thesis he could, as evidenced by the quote above. Oh, you can see him lead his talk off with the above quote, here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hj9oB4zpHww
It’s a robust realism Harris is defending. Not a quasi-realism, like Simon Blackburn, or a modest evaluative realism, that I wouldn’t quibble with. It’s a robust moral realism. And it’s informed, so it asserts, by the fact that science can do more than help us get what we value, but can determine human values. Informing, advancing, etc, would be more like the helping us get what we value, that it can determine what we value, well, that’s what I’m arguing against, at the very least.
Oh yeah, and the word “determine” is in the subtitle of TML. Instead of saying something like “Oh, my publishers made me put that in there,” Harris chose to charge full speed ahead and defend that assertion.
Incidentally, Putnam is satisfied, it’s clear, with something other than the robust realism Harris is aiming for. And the review of the book from Nussbaum (which made the back cover),
“Putnam’s The Collapse of the Fact/Value Dichotomy is a tour de force by a great philosopher. In an era of pseudo-scientific reductionism in what should be ‘the human sciences’, Putnam’s distinction as a philosopher of science and mathematics lends weight to his eloquent demolition of the dichotomy between judgments of fact and judgments of value that plays such a baneful role in economics, public policy, and the law, discouraging serious normative inquiry and argument. Anyone tempted by Milton Friedman’s famous claim that concerning differences of value ‘men can ultimately only fight’ should read this elegant and wonderful book”
is a little fawning, particularly in the intimation that Friedman’s quote would be refuted. And anyway Putnam’s book is more about how values inform science than about how science can inform values. It doesn’t getcha where Harris wants to go, in other words. FWIW, aside from the fact that Putnam is satisfied with a more modest evaluative realism than what we’re talking about here, he still holds a distinction between facts and values, and finds the idea that anyone doesn’t see this distinction as a surprising thing. He wanted to show that there is more interaction than is commonly appreciated. Again though, it’s mostly that he wanted to show that science was informed by values.
Now, Peter Beattie, if you’re reading this,
I’ve said stuff that’s important to me, particular the stuff about the difference between something being not-moral and something being immoral. But if I were to choose to call one thing out to you for special attention, it’s this challenge:
You either have to come up with a reason for those that flout “well-being” (this is both the Taliban and the sociopath) not to do so, (and it can’t just be that it’s “good” for them, since they’re pretty good at getting what they want; it’s just that we hate what they want) or you have to say they have no reason. Now, you might be tempted to say that they’re too defective to notice the right reasons. But the word “defective” refers to how effective something is in its achievement of a goal, or purpose. Many of the people who have goals we hate (those that flout moral goals all together, and those that set themselves up as our moral rivals) are very good at achieving those goals. So you have to show why they’re defective to have their views in the first place. It’s clear that they don’t pursue our goals, they pursue theirs. They’re really good at pursuing their goals. In spite of this, you have to show why they have a reason not to pursue goals we deem “morally bad.” If you can’t, and want to say that they’re defective, then you have to say why they’re defective to pursue different goals, not just that they have different goals.
Saying they have goals other than “well-being” is obvious. First, “different from” does not get you to “morally wrong for” and more importantly second, you have to show they have a reason to share our goal of “well-being.” Since the life of a bad-guy is often filled with loads of adventure and pleasure, the desired answer that the bad-guy is suffering isn’t available. So that can’t be your reason. And if you want to say that there are reasons, but they’re just too defective to see them, then you still have to show that there is some reason they should feel compelled by in the first place (reasons that override the reasons they’re compelled by, to manipulate people for their own pleasure).
Or of course, Peter Beattie,
You could say that sociopaths and the acid throwers in the Taliban have no reason to pursue “well-being” and that we can’t show that they’re defective for pursuing their lifestyles in the first place, but that there are still scientific facts that constrain the subjective feelings and societal states of affairs we call “well-being” (I don’t disagree with the that proposition that such facts exist, I’m just waiting for you to explain why they give everyone reasons).
You could do that, and you might retain your status as a moral realist, but it would be among the most modest forms of moral realism out there (it wouldn’t contradict meta-ethical moral relativism, in other words). And most importantly, it would cut off a big chuck of what Sam Harris is up to.
Peter Beattie,
I notice that I neglected to answer your direct questions in post#237. Perhaps after reading my several most recent responses, this one will be put in the proper context.
Here’s the key part of your post:
To answer your questions:
1) Meaningful and non-idiosyncratic and uses of the concept-term “morality” refer to states of consciousness, yes. I’ll go further and say that morality as a concept-term actually successfully refers to states of consciousness.
2) Yes, in order to properly use the term, we would have to call this state of affairs supremely bad (but even fictional terms have proper uses, so this doesn’t get us where we want to go). Whether it would actually be supremely bad, (rather than merely bad-for) in a robust realist sense (that I think I’ve adequately explained in the several most recent posts when I discussed reason-giving power) is another matter.
3) Yes, any movement away from that state would have correlates in the brain.
So there ya go; I accept all three.
But no, my skeptic is not convinced. And here’s where I hope my last several posts to you provide the context for this answer: Even after we accept 1-3, we still haven’t provided a reason to people who prefer hedonistic or sadistic pleasure to “well-being.” As I’ve explained, even these hedonistic and sadistic types of pleasure provide an example of a kind of conscious state (satisfying 1), these kinds of pleasure are not supremely bad/suffering for everyone, since the hedonist/sadist gets pleasure from them (satisfying 2), and presumably the types of pleasure the hedonist/sadist pursue (toward pleasure but away from “well-being”) have correlates in the brain as well, and are therefore also accessible to scientific study (satisfying 3).
I ask you where you find reasons in 1-3 that compels the skeptic or sadist or sociopath or acid-throwing member of the Taliban.
Now, of course the skeptic/sadist/sociopath, etc, can’t logically or rationally compel anyone that doesn’t already share they’re views either, but that’s just the flip side of the coin. Depending on how charismatic people are, agreement will be reached between the parties from time to time. But so long as that agreement is between previously clashing axioms/beliefs, it won’t be agreement that was compelling by rationally persuasive reasons (when the word rational is non-tendentious and doesn’t just refer to “calm” or “mature” or some such thing).
Their and they’re. Uggh! My brain moves faster than my fingers. (or is the other way around?) Either way, I’ll step away for a day or two. Other responsibilities piling up…
J. Jeffers,
Quite. What I would ask is, which is more pervasive and damaging: the idea that there are a set of absolute moral commandments (which implies that large segments of humanity are as a matter of scientific, unassailable fact immoral), or the idea that sophisticated moral skeptics prefer, that there is indeed some kind of fact/ value dichotomy (admitting various degrees of entanglement)? I would argue it’s the former. And Harris, to my mind, has played right into the hands of those individuals who proselytize moral absolutism, most of whom are not atheistic moral realists like him but bigots of every slant.
Ayn Rand, who also believed she’d solved the is-ought problem (by appealing to ‘man’s nature’), would have a lot to say about Sam Harris’s more altruistic ideas. Who’s right? They can’t both be in their worlds with no room for moral skepticism. (Note: I don’t mean to imply that either Ayn Rand or Sam Harris are bigots, that is, in a pejorative sense. I’m merely observing that they are both moral absolutists with differing moral views.)
I wonder whether all Sam Harris’s philosophy-deriding foot soldiers grasp this deeper conceptual similarity they now share with the religious folk they too deride with no less vitriol. Does Harris really think that moral relativism of the sophisticated type is a more pressing problem than moral absolutism of any type? I mean, those of us who lie awake at night pondering whether the world is as Humean as it seems to us, tend also to be more comfortable with uncertainty (i.e. are comfortable with skepticism, with saying ‘I don’t know’) and less likely to join a cult, or take up nationalism as a pasttime, or make comments like ‘You nailed it! I love your mind! Sam Harris for president!’ whenever said author writes something equivocatory in the Huffington Post.
Surely, it is by teaching people to think more philosophically, skeptically – which Harris hasn’t done on this subject – that you make them more compassionate, nuanced in their thinking, and tolerant, that you make them more moral (morality by my lights); whereas by priming them to submit to objective moral laws determined by some or other authority (which Harris does) that you not make them barbaric, but empower them to be barbaric.
The irony may in fact be that humanity is most moral when we are uncertain about morality. But alas, I believe a little-known philosopher got to this idea long before any of us.
‘I have gained this by philosophy: that I do without being commanded what others do only from fear of the law.’ – Aristotle
Alasdair Cameron,
I have thought of the Ayn Rand comparison many times!! So it’s nice to hear you bring it up. No one has as of yet agreed with me (that may be because it’s my interlocutors that I usually present this idea to. As in “are you a fan of Ayn Rand, because this sounds a lot like her”).
I like the philosophical spirit you invoke, particularly when you quote Aristotle. To bring something to the table myself, I’ll repeat a quote I’ve used already in the thread. It’s from Phillipa Foot, who in her paper, “Morality as a System of Hypothetical Imperatives” said “we are not conscripts in the army of virtue, but volunteers.”
Even as I quibble with how much comfort we should take from her overall thesis in this paper, I think this is one of the most beautiful quotes I’ve come across in philosophy, and it captures a similar spirit as the Aristotle quote you provide, it seems. It even has a kind of almost “non-discursive” beauty to it. If that smacks too much of mysticism to others, well, I don’t know what to say other than that I have to reason to push it anyone. After all, that it can’t be pushed is built into the quote.
Have a good day/weekend.
“no” reason, that is.
Hey Jay J.! Okay, let’s start with #241. Again, I’ll try to be brief in order to make the central points stand out as clearly as possible.
When our Taliban friend says that his moral goal is to faithfully carry out the commands of his god (which I take to be the crux of the argument), then I have two problems with that. First, he wouldn’t be able eo ipso to escape the epistemological dead end of appealing to an authority that is not equally accessible to everyone: if you are appealing to your god, then you are not talking about what is the right thing to do for anyone. That is, unless you assert that your god’s edicts are binding on everybody—but you would, of course, have to establish that first, including the pesky little premise of said god’s existence, which I’ll simply take as not feasible (at the very least given the usual definitions of ‘god’). Plus, wouldn’t he just have started a possibly infinite regress (even without claiming universality) in begging the question of what is the reason to obey this god’s commands?
Second, he would (of logical necessity) be implying that morality ist not only equal to but identical with obedience. He would have to assert that what is right on Monday can be wrong on Tuesday, absolutely all other things being equal, because the god thing said so. At least in terms of any and all effects on the real world, that would mean that ‘good’ and ‘bad’ can mean anything at all—even that ‘good’ can be ‘bad’. If that is correct, it would mean that any form of morality that was not at least to some degree consequentialist would be logically inconsistent. I guess. ;>
As to the sociopath and the immoral/not moral distinction, I think that is easily resolved by analogy to science. I would argue as follows: if you agree that it would be unscientific to claim that the Grand Canyon was laid down by Noah’s flood, you cannot then say it would just be non-scientific to claim it was formed by a miracle when god snapped its immaterial finger. You’re still talking about the same thing, so just pretending to retreat into an epistemological safe zone cannot help you. Same thing with morality: if you are talking about something that does in fact have an effect on other people’s lives, you cannot escape responsibility by pretending (or actually believing—same difference) only to care about your pleasure (or whatever it is you care about). If there is a significant negative impact on others, then it’s still in fact immoral, not just ‘not moral’.
And just one word on the “meaningless fucking term”: that was directed at ‘well-being’, not ‘morality’. That was with respect to Harris’s argument that we must semantically/logically agree that there is, conceptually, a worst possible world, lest ‘well-being’ be rendered a “meaningless fucking term”.
I hope that this goes some way to address the points you made. :)
Jay J. (#243) – Oh yeah, and the word “determine” is in the subtitle of TML.
I really don’t understand why anybody should make a fuss about the subtitle per se, when the relevant definitions of that word are ‘to fix conclusively or authoritatively; to settle or decide by choice of alternatives or possibilities’. By itself, this says nothing about the ultimate provenance of the things to be fixed, settled, or decided upon. And for that reading, you wouldn’t even have to be charitable. Don’t you think? :)
If I can get a wish too, Jay… ;>
In the second half of #231, I talk about flourishing and how it is (I think necessarily) embedded in a concept of potential. Does that address any of your concerns at all?
I was on autopilot there for a minute. “Jay J” is what I’ve gone by on other sites. EIther way though.
OK, then what of your sympathy for Harris’ argument that well-being is the only way we can discuss morality? Are you saying that it can be discussed in other ways, and that I’ve convinced you that it can be more expansive than our conception of well-being?
But Peter, even the definition you offer, (which you seem to think is more modest) does not offer reasons why he can settle among alternatives. And anyway, you’re ignoring the quote I offered from his TED talk, once again. Don’t you think we should take him at his word? Most importantly here, are you prepared to say there’s no knock-down reasons to offer rival moral systems, or sociopaths/sadists? If so, then you should stop defending TML. If not, then your attempt at a more modest definition of “determine” is only misdirecting.
(thatz all I have time for right now. I look at post #231 when I can)
Jay J,
I think that quote of Phillipa Foot’s captures the spirit (if you believe a philosophy can have a spirit) of how we see morality. It evokes not only the sinister overtones of moral realism but also the passionate feeling I have that virtue – genuine virtue, as opposed to obedience – is only that if it has been chosen freely and not been somehow coerced by the threats of absolutists who claim to know the will of Nature.
Irony abounds, it seems, because not only does Phillipa Foot’s ‘Natural Goodness’ sound identical to Ayn Rand’s appeal to man’s nature (irony 1: them both being moral realists) but also because I think they’ve both sold mankind short (irony 2: they’ve misestimated the core of their thesis: man’s nature) by imputing to us a too simplistic template of desires and preferences.
Alasdair Cameron,
Yeah, it seemed like Foot wasn’t satisfied with “Morality as a System of Hypothetical Imperatives,” and had to go onto Natural Goodness. I wish she could have found it in herself to stay put with the former. What’s funny is how she said she was determined to say something about the horrors of the Nazi regime, and how she had to show how morality could resolve such conflicts, yet Natural Goodness is what she was satisfied with. In interviews, she told of her motivation for writing, and didn’t say anything like, “Oh, but, you know, although I’ve written a good book, I’ve failed.”
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2010/12/26/magazine/2010lives.html#view=philippa_foot
The article shows that she was seduced by this “human defect” way of viewing moral vice. Never, of course, showing the superiority of moral (versus immoral… why do people have a reason to prefer what we deem “good”) goals to begin with (so, I would say a rival moral view, or a crew of determined sadists could see us as “defective” as well).
In this way, I’ve actually always thought that Ayn Rand has gotten a bum rap from philosophers (she isn’t taken seriously at all in academic philosophy, save a handful of folks). And I say this without thinking very highly of her thought myself. It’s just that, if she had a different attitude toward philosophy, and had wrapped her naked assertions up in more substantive philosophical jargon, then Rand could have passed as an actual philosopher. But, as we know, she hasn’t gained much respect in academic philosophy. It stands to reason that when people make the same mistakes she made (mistakes that are ostensibly the reason why she isn’t considered a *real* philosopher), they should be called out for it. I don’t think Foot’s thesis in Natural Goodness has taken philosophy by storm, and meta-ethics in particular doesn’t seem moved by it, but it does seem weirdly acceptable, like, respectable work. I’m sure her knowledge of the history of philosophy is impressive, her understanding of core concepts is competent I’m sure, her writing is technically good and sometimes eloquent, but ultimately, her thesis seems to have passed the laugh test, and Rand’s hasn’t. But they seem very similar to me.
Peter Beattie,
Please allow me get to clear on something:
I don’t think the Taliban’s reason are persuasive. Part of the result of moral skepticism is that neither side has rationally compelling reasons to offer the other (that doesn’t mean we should stop trying to change things.. This is a conversation about truth, not policy).
I do not have to show a moral system that defeats yours.
Rather, all I have to do is show you a system that passes as moral (but not necessarily that we should consider it “good”), then the burden is on you to show why they have a rationally compelling reason not to adhere to their system. If you can’t show that, then calling them defective will be question begging.
Incidentally, you’re really good at noticing question begging on the part of theistic morality…I find that your abilities seem specially tuned toward that, which is why I find it mysterious how you don’t notice it in the moral systems in question.
Anyway, this argument is not about showing that your belief system is defeated by the Taliban’s. It’s about showing whether or not you can defeat theirs (rationally, in a non-question begging way, etc). The point of moral skepticism is that from a rational standpoint, no one wins. So you’re right, the Taliban doesn’t win. Now, they could just say those who haven’t heard Allah’s word have a mitigated moral responsibility, (that’s what many Christian Fundamentalists think about Jesus) but that Allah’s word is still right. And that stuff about what’s right changing, well, yeah, but so what?
As for escaping the epistemological dead end, well, I agree! But since I’m telling you you’re not taking moral skepticism seriously enough, I’m not saying the Taliban’s moral system succeeds by any meta-ethical standard over yours. No, I’m saying you have to give me a reason why the members of the Taliban should feel compelled by your reasons, and if they’re not, why that makes them defective.
Peter Beattie, since whether there are moral facts (as opposed to merely scientific ones) in the first place is in question, then something being wrong on Tuesdays but not on Wednesdays is interesting, I guess, but it doesn’t provide the reason why the Taliban are wrong to feel motivated by their system. They can say “Yes, the particular things that are right and wrong can be changed by Allah.” This shows that they believe morality either changes, or morality IS what Allah commands. There’s nothing inconsistent there. You just don’t like the fact that it changes (change is not the exact same thing as inconsistent). But what’s important is that they have a coherent belief system (which can be easy to achieve). And anyway, the burden is on you to show why you have a rationally compelling reason to be moral, so even if you could show that they commit logical fallacies in their justification of their own moral belief system wouldn’t show that they have a reason to accept yours.
Also, unless you’ve come up with a system that answers all moral questions (which even Harris has balked at saying) then you haven’t come up with the exact formula for goodness, in which case you believe that what’s good comes to us through situations, and that we can’t simply map out a formula for exactly what goodness is enough to comfortably answer all the hairy dilemmas utilitarians are presented with by non-utilitarians. If that’s true, then criticizing the Taliban for changing the content of what’s good starts to seem like throwing stones from a glass house. Admittedly, there doesn’t seem to be nearly as much of a possibility of wild jumps in our system, but if we can’t show that we’ve ironed out the details, then we can’t say exactly what’s wrong with wild jumps in goodness. Other than that it seems wrong to us.
Oh lordy lordy,
Peter Beattie,
By no means am I saying that sociopaths get out of our judgment by merely being “not moral.” I am saying the opposite, actually, and showing that this is an argument against your view.
Let’s go back to the beginning, all the way to my post (#11) and how I asked how the passage on page 41 of TML was anything other than appealing to obviousness. You replied, in post# 13,
In the passages in question, Harris states that some definitions of morality are so idiosyncratic that we can safely say they aren’t talking about what we’re talking about. OK. Fine. That’s true. But if there are no moral facts, then we have to show why our moral system is compelling. In moral disputes between ourselves on the one hand, and the Taliban on the other, we aren’t dealing with people that want the suffering of everyone, only for some people (even sociopaths and sadists want to avoid suffering,and are often very successful in doing so). So I grant you, as an empirical fact, that people don’t want suffering for themselves, unless it’s to escape other kinds of suffering (I still think there is a semantic gap even once we acknowledge this, but I’m going to leave that aside).
So, what we’re concerned with is a group of people said they have a preference for the suffering of 99.99% of human beings, (we would be concerned with groups that wanted suffering for half the people too, but let’s simplify) and we would have to do more than simply say that they’re not talking about morality. Even moral skeptics can acknowledge that the concept of morality has a range of definition that you can’t go beyond else you change the subject. Simply saying “Oh but you’re not talking about morality anymore,” simply shows they’ve changed the subject, it hasn’t shown that the terms of moral discourse (good, bad, etc) actually pick out terms that do the work we say they do (which includes, that those that are “bad” and want suffering for everyone have a reason not to want this, and if they can’t see that reason, then they’re defective). So, simply saying they’re not talking about morality isn’t compelling, since we have to not only say that they’ve changed the subject, but that their stated preferences are wrong, not just “not moral.” I’m not saying the person that recommends suffering for almost everyone has good reason either, for whatever that’s worth at this point. I’m saying that if you claim to be able to solve the dispute, then you have to explain not only that “the suffering of everyone but me” is a non-moral statement, you have to show that it’s an immoral statement. To show that it’s an immoral statement, you have to do more than show that it’s outside your belief system, you have to show why the immoral statement should not be preferred by anyone, because they have a reason not to, else you be left with the statement, ‘it’s wrong to want the suffering of everyone but yourself, but there’s no reason not to want this.”
Now, if you want, I’ll allow the sociopath/sadist a few people around. Someone to have sex with (maybe many people for this), some people to entertain him, some people to do his laundry, etc. Why is he wrong to want this? It’s clearly not “suffering for everyone.” So this, “morality doesn’t push for suffering for everyone” line doesn’t work. Our moral rivals, (the Taliban) as well as our moral taunters (sociopaths/sadists) don’t want suffering for everyone.
So you latching onto my argument about the difference between “not-moral” and “immoral” is ironic, and would seem to be just more grist for my mill. Just so we’re clear, it’s obvious to us that “suffering for everyone” is an immoral statement, or, we take it to be. But we have to show more than that it means this, because even fictional terms have meaning. If the word “immoral” does the work we say it does, we have to show why those that prefer the suffering of everyone are morally wrong to do so. By doing this, you have to show why they have a reason not to prefer their own suffering. I buy that people don’t prefer their own suffering unless they want to escape other kinds of suffering as an empirical fact. But even still, by using only this standard, the sociopath passes. So that’s not helpful to your side. If it were, we could say that the person who was suffering greatly, so much that death would relieve her suffering, could desire the suffering of everyone else, (since her death is imminent) and that we wouldn’t have a compelling reason to offer her not to want this. If you cold bring yourself to say this, then you may be some kind of moral realist, but don’t expect moral realists to be thrilled about your inclusion on their side, and realize that this is a much more modest form of realism than Harris is promoting.
So you see, using the fact that we have a range of meaning of moral terms to show that those that say the suffering of all people would be preferable, are morally wrong to say so, cannot succeed (because whether there are compelling moral facts is in question in the first place). If this line of argument appears to succeed, it can only be because the conclusion seems so obvious (again, this is not the same as accusing Harris of saying “this is obvious to me, therefore it’s true” that would be, as it were, too obvious). We have to show that no one has a reason to want such a thing. Granted, no one does (I still don’t think it’s conceptually impossible, but I’m comfortable narrowing the argument down a bit). But since our moral disputes involve only suffering for some, you have to show why the sociopath has a reason to value other people’s well-being as highly as his pleasure.
So, in post# 253, you said,
Peter Beattie, if you wish to take back what you said in post#13, or say that you realize that morality can be discussed in more ways than just through “well-being,” fine. But I think you should realize that I’m warranted in thinking you’ve been trying to define the argument out of existence by controlling what “morality” means, not just well-being.
I think what you should signal now is your view on moral discourse. Do people that have belief systems that value things we think are horrible have morality at all? If so, then I think you should allow that your post (#13), which was about the only legitimate context of discussing morality, could have set much of the tone here. I know these terms can get tricky, and we’re rifling off posts here, so it’s not a huge thing if you only meant that “well-being” can’t mean “everyone suffers.”
The problem is, Sam Harris was meaning that it shows that moral facts are real and compelling, and that doesn’t work. So, it’s true that we can control the definition of “well-being.” I’ve been trying to go to great lengths to show that I’m not skeptical that there is a real phenomena about what kinds of emotional reactions follow from certain kinds of actions, that there are facts about what kinds of policies lead to what kinds of societal structures, and facts about what kinds of societal arrangements are conducive to certain kinds of levels of “well-being.”. But it can’t be that well-being is simply a synonym for “good.” If we try to settle the argument this way, then we are question-begging.
Other societies, even ones that challenge our moral beliefs, have moral systems too, or so you seem willing to allow from what you wrote in post# 253 about seeing a possible distinction between well-being on the one hand and morality as a whole, on the other. So if moral facts are in question, and the fact that our moral preferences seem to obviously be the right ones can’t be appealed to without question begging, then what counts as “good” in a moral system is what the system says is praiseworthy, should be pursued, etc. Now, MAYBE our rivals are wrong about what counts as good. MAYBE there are moral facts that can show that they’re wrong. But “well-being” does not do the job. Why? Because there are no facts in well-being that explain why the person that satisfies their preferences in other ways (e.g through mere pleasure, sadistic or not) is wrong to do that in the first place.
So, I not only believe, (with you) that well-being has a meaning, and that “everyone everywhere should suffer” is beyond that range of meaning, I also think (with you, I believe) that there are scientific facts that can be studied that show that our use of this term is not arbitrary and does in fact pick out some real things. I just don’t think you can say that “well-being” means “moral” and simply try to win the argument through this linguistic route, because then all you’ll be able to say is that those that adhere to rival moral systems are “not moral” rather than “immoral.” In which case there would be no difference between saying “Morality is kjsbcvuid” and “Our moral beliefs tell us to throw battery acid in a little girl’s face when Allah commands it.” The former is meaningless, the latter makes an intelligible moral claim (even though we want to say it’s a “bad” claim).
Now, if you want to say that you only mean that “everyone everywhere should suffer” is beyond the range of meaning for the term “well-being,” then fine. But you should also acknowledge that people who pursue things other than well-being can intelligibly posses moral beliefs. And you should be able to see that not everyone agrees that “well-being” should be pursued (and that the words “well” and “good” are often interchangeable, and so it might be tempting to use them synonymously in meta-ethical disputes, which would be question begging).
So, it should be becoming clear to you that we can’t just define the argument away by saying “Well the Taliban aren’t pursuing well-being.” That much is obvious. What’s not is whether you have a reason that shows the Taliban shouldn’t be pursuing what they do, such that if they can’t see that reason, they’re defective.
Now, I’m sorry for repeating myself so much, but you haven’t even addressed the issue of reasons (notice that reasons and Reason are related, but Reason is a whole set of standards of belief, and reasons are the individual justifications we give each other when we try to change one another’s beliefs or behavior). If someone has a “reason” to do something, it is a justification. Reason, on the other hand, is a whole set of standards, like consistency, soundness, etc.
Also, I’ll get to post #231 in my next post, I promise. Whether that will be in two hours or two days, I’m not sure.
J. Jeffers (#255):
Please let’s be as clear on this as we reasonably can. My sympathy was for the argument that ‘morality’ is necessarily rooted in consciousness, that there is a state of consciousness that we as conscious creatures can absolutely not aim for and at the same time use ‘good’ and ‘bad’ consistently, and that in principle all the actual values (i.e. the states we think are desirable, not the tools to attain them) are traceable in our brains.
I think this is rather compelling, although I suppose step two could use some strengthening. My own additions to Harris’s argument would be that the question ‘morality’ asks is something along the lines of ‘what is the right thing to do for someone in this kind of situation’ and is thus necessarily a social question, one that is intrinsically aimed at values for a society, and simply does not admit of idiosyncratic or even solipsistic answers.
All in all, this makes it pretty convincing to me to use ‘well-being’ as the crucial measure of morality. There are caveats, to be sure, but I think they can be dealt with in the same manner as they are in any other areas that we pursue scientifically. Specifically, I think that the health analogy is basically sound and that all we can reasonably expect in terms of convincing others is the same kind of consensus that we have about ‘truth’. There will always be those who will not accept that, for example, revelation is not a path to truth, or perhaps more aptly that they will accept explanations that feel right as opposed to those that can be demonstrated to be true. ‘What is truth to me?’ these science Taliban might say. And we shouldn’t lose any sleep over that. Should we?
It is not my attempt at a more modest definition, it is the dictionary definition. Can we agree on that?
And of course I did not bring up the quote you offered, because you were only talking about the subtitle of the book: “Oh yeah, and the word ‘determine’ is in the subtitle of TML.” If that word means what the dictionary thinks it means, then the subtitle of Harris’s book does not (at the very least not necessarily) claim that science can show us what morality is—only the values we should accept, as long as we (broadly) agree on the meaning of ‘morality’. Can we agree on that too?
If Harris then says something else in a talk, we’re all happy to take that into account also. But it would be a different matter from the question of what we should expect given a specific subtitle of a book.
J. Jeffers (#258):
The first step for our Taliban would then be to construct a moral system: that means, anything that is binding on Adam but not Eve goes out the window; otherwise it would only answer to the question ‘what do I (or don’t I) want’. Anything that simply slaps the label ‘morality’ on another distinct concept, such as ‘obedience’, goes out the window unless we want to allow ‘morality’ to mean anything at all. And anything that would effectively make the terms ‘good’ and ‘bad’ indistinguishable would mean that there is no system: out it goes.
The second step, presuming an actual moral system as given, would then have to have it aim at something other than ‘well-being’—if there is to be even a debate. And I honestly don’t see (not for lack of trying, though) how an idea of ‘flourishing’ as the goal for a society can realistically be avoided. My suspicion so far is that every alternative that might be put up in good faith would basically be reducible to ‘well-being’. But maybe you can find one, I’d welcome the opportunity to put this idea through its paces.
I hope you can appreciate that I’m expending at least some effort in order to perhaps convince you that I’m not turning a blind eye to question-begging on this side of the aisle. :) (Although I must admit I’m really not keen on making this into an us-vs.-them kind of debate—not if we want our debates to flourish, anyway. ;>)
J. Jeffers (#246) – So there ya go; I accept all three.
Well, either you’re not being clear about what that means, or you have just answered your own challenge. If it means that you agree that Harris’s argument is sound and serves to substantiate his thesis (if not, please elaborate on ‘accept’), then I suppose you do so for rational reasons. If you do, that by definition means that any other fair observer should also accept the argument—which would dispose of our Taliban. But I suppose you do not actually mean that, so I guess you’ll just have to be more precise. :)
these kinds of pleasure are not supremely bad/suffering for everyone, since the hedonist/sadist gets pleasure from them (satisfying 2)
Actually, these points miss the mark. The hedonist, by definition, cares only about his own pleasure, which does not satisfy the requirement of moral considerations not to be idiosyncratic; and the sadist, also by definition, does of course lower somebody’s well-being.
In the bottom of post #254, Peter Beattie, you wrote,
Here’s all of 231,
First of all, it’s abundantly clear that the hedonist/sociopath is not pursuing well-being. I suppose you haven’t been reading my posts, because if you had, you would know, at the very least, that it’s incumbent on you to answer my challenge that you can come up with no compelling reason to offer the hedonist/sociopath to adopt your set of preferences, rather than his.
The reason I am going on and on about the hedonist/sociopath AND the acid throwing Taliban member is twofold:
In the case of the sociopath/hedonist, it’s to show you that these people are not suffering, so it’s not at all obvious that you can show that they have a reason not to prefer what they do. If you can’t show that, then you’ve failed.
In the case of the acid throwing member of the Taliban, it’s to show you that they claim to have a rival system of morality, and that they’re not claiming “the suffering of every person is what morality means.” You made a big to do out of Sam Harris making this point early on in our discussion, so now it’s incumbent on you to either say that it does impressive work in the argument, and then say why, or abandon it.
Now, as for the point about flourishing that you directed me to this post for, let me call this part out for special consideration:
This has to do with the drug induced state, which I find to be an interesting line of argument, but I can’t get you to be response on the lines we’ve got going, so I don’t want to start a whole new line. Suffice it say, you have to PROVIDE REASONS, and this is what you’ve been avoiding, for quite a while now.
People have potential when it comes to being sociopaths too. This is not a conversation about whether utilitarianism is coherent, so your invocation of Bentham is out of place. There are other coherent moral systems to, you have to refute them.
Responding to post# 261
Peter Beattie, you wrote,
http://image.shutterstock.com/display_pic_with_logo/52959/52959,1267968903,42/stock-photo-businessman-in-depression-with-hand-on-forehead-48163624.jpg
Well I myself sleep fine, but that’s not the issue here Pete.
It doesn’t matter if your mouth waters at this thin gruel:
because the Taliban’s stated morality is rooted in consciousness too!!!!!!! They use “bad” in a way that they understand, (any time a woman is raped and so brings dishonor upon her family, she deserve to die) and all the states they think are desirable are traceable in the brain as well!!!!!! Give me a reason why they shouldn’t pursue what they pursue, for the umpteenth time.
You continued,
No Peter, not of course, because I brought up his talk in my response to Alasdair Cameron in post # 242, both by quoting what Harris said in the talk, and by providing a link to the talk. Post # 243 was when I threw in, as an additional piece on information, what the subtitle of his book says, so don’t give me this bullshit, “If Harris then says something else in a talk, we’re all happy to take that into account also,” because you seized on my addition to my main point and ignored what I said to Alasdair Cameron in the first place.
Furthermore, the dictionary definition of “determine” does not give anyone who doesn’t already agree with you a REASON to change their ways and pursue what you like. So you still haven’t gotten your balance yet. If Harris’ book only does this work,
Then you have no reason defending it, because moral disputes are over what counts as good in the first place. And again, agreeing what morality means is easy, it’s agreeing on what counts as good and bad that’s the trouble. Having a system of morality is having a system of what’s deserving of praise and blame, what should or shouldn’t be done, etc. Different people and groups disagree over the content of what falls into praiseworthy/should be done and blameworthy/should be done, but that doesn’t mean only the group that happens to agree with us is the only one that possesses morality.
And in any case, you’re using “should” in the wrong area. What you have to show is that you can demonstrate that those that don’t share your moral views, (like the Taliban) or those that flout them all-together, (like sociopaths) shouldn’t do what they do, and should change their ways. That’s what the issue is, unless you’re willing to admit that members of the Taliban and sociopaths have no reason to adopt your moral views, in which case the whole issue of them being wrong for theirs goes out the window.
Response to post# 262,
Peter Beattie, you responded to my point,
This way,
In reverse order,
Uum, well, had you wanted to set the tone for the kind of debate you say you prefer in this quote, then you shouldn’t have entered the post you did that started off the whole thread. You talk at the end of your post of raising your game, and you have entered the public debate on a philosophical topic, so you have an obligation to do your due diligence on the matter, and not fail to understand core parts of the issue, glibly dealing with them when they’re presented to you. You have an obligation to make sure that your contribution is adding something high-level to the discussion. You even paraphrase Wittgenstein, and it’s a quote that, if I’m right about my concerns would apply to you, because this is an issue you ought to be passing over in silence.
So, when you hold Massimo Pigliucci’s review of TML up as an example of what not to do, it’s imperative that you be right. So, this isn’t just a “discussion” that you early on said was what you’re here for. No, this is you throwing down the gauntlet on the view Pigliucci expressed, and crudely at that. If you don’t like Massimo Pigliuicci, or just didn’t like his tone, you could have said that. But you responded tit for tat, and in the process, ushered in people like me into the dispute. You used a shotgun on Pigliccui, not a sniper’s rifle. Buckshot flew everywhere, so it’s incumbent on you to do this at a very high level, not just as if we’re shooting the breeze in some agnostic/atheist club meeting. If you can’t, then your original response to Pigliucci is unwarranted.
I find it very hard to believe you’re trying all that hard. Many societies across the world have something other than “well-being” the way we understand it, as their goal. They do. The fact that our liberal western secular view seems to be winning, more or less, can’t be determinative, unless might makes right (which it doesn’t). Societies exist that don’t value equality the way we do, so we can’t just defeat them, we have to show a reason why they shouldn’t value what they do.
Moral systems can represent what’s right, and those that haven’t been properly educated into the system can get a pass, or a verdict of a mitigated responsibility. That doesn’t mean their flouting of the system is OK, it just means that your concern over whether those that haven’t accepted or heard of Allah is marginal. As for your contention that morality would be made meaningless if obedience to a divine being is what counted as good, I see that you aren’t meeting your obligation to do your due diligence, and I find this very frustrating because I already dealt with this, but it’s sailed right past you.
See, morality is meaningful even if we say that obedience to Allah is what counts as good. Morality wouldn’t be meaningful if we said “Morality commits us to hjnecwo7*j.” It would be idiosyncratic if we said, “Morality is the little mini-tornados that swirl around my back yard. But for you to say that those that equate Allah’s commands don’t even have morality is downright glib, and it’s an example of trying to win the argument by definition.
Can’t you see what you’re doing? You’re not able to, with this line of thought, distinguish between,
“Morality is kjndsiunvoiwun”
and
“Morality is the mini-tornados that form in my backyard when the wind blows,”
from,
“Our moral beliefs command that we do what Allah wills, even if it’s throwing battery acid in a little girl’s face.”
Your insistence that the last sentence is meaningless is inexplicable. Do you really not see how the last, is different from the second and first? I guess you don’t, even after all this time in the back and forth. That’s astounding!!
I’ve acknowledged that it’s clear that rival moral systems aren’t pursuing well-being, but your insistence that this means those rival systems don’t have morality at all is just a foot-stomp. It’s on you to say why the systems that don’t value what we call “well-being” don’t even posses moral beliefs, because this is a radical claim.
If you merely want to say that rival moral systems are indeed moral systems, but posses mistaken moral beliefs, then stop acting as if the issue is one of whether rival moral systems posses morality at all.
J. Jeffers (#264) – In the case of the sociopath/hedonist, it’s to show you that these people are not suffering, so it’s not at all obvious that you can show that they have a reason not to prefer what they do. If you can’t show that, then you’ve failed.
I spelt this out step by step in the comment you quoted. Shorter me: If you are only looking at your pleasure and neglecting someone else’s suffering brought about by the same act, then you’re not talking about ‘morality’. This is obviously a question of central importance, and one that needs to be agreed on before any further discussion can take place. If you insist on accepting anybody’s claim that they are using a moral system just because they call it one, then the whole debate becomes meaningless. So, unless you address that point, clearly and explicitly, we are not going to continue this. And come off your high horse while your doing that, I’m getting tired of being talked down to.
The more time I invest in this dispute, the more you don’t address the core issues that I bring up, the more frustrating this process is. The more stubborn you are in clinging to your facile contributions, the worse my writing gets, on account of frustration.
Anyway, in post#263, you responded to my point that I accepted all 3 standards outlined in my post (#246) this way,
Oh I’m being plenty clear, you’re just illustrating my point that Sam Harris has added confusion, rather than clarity, to an important issue, and you’re following in his footsteps. For review, let’s take a look at what you asked me to consider, from your post (#237)
I accepted all three, (from post#246)
But I continued,
So why should I have to repeat myself? I explained why these three standards do not demonstrate what you need them to. So why are you asking for more? Just to send me on a tail-chasing, time-wasting venture? No thanks. You tell me how these reason dispose of the Taliban. My position is that systems you wish to exclude are actually included by 1-3, and I showed how this is the case. You replied, but you were not responsive.
What you want to go on and do is add MORE standards. Fine, but by the stated standards of 1-3, you include systems you wish to exclude. That much is crystal clear, again, since it’s apparently gone through unnoticed, from this,
I asked you how 1-3 gives reasons, particularly since I’ve shown that systems you want to fail by these standards, actually pass, and you went back to trying to define the argument out of existence. Instead of pursuing the dead end of arguing that rival moral systems don’t count as moral at all, you need to demonstrate that they actually have a reason not to prefer what they do (you’re charged with doing this with both the sociopath/sadist AND with the Taliban).
Continuing, in reply to my point that # 2 is satisfied, you said,
What you should do, if you want to backtrack from the tone you set from the start, is stop saying that my points miss the mark. Say stuff like “I don’t see how this accomplishes what you claim, because it seems to me that the issue is about X, y, z, etc.” See you set the tone, so it’s imperative that you’re right. We’re not just shooting the breeze on a message board, we’re discussing a public contribution you’ve made to a very important debate. See if you openly tell me that I am making intellectual mistakes, all while yours are deeper, then the only thing for me to feel is great frustration, particularly since you’re the one that entered the original post, and so have taken on the burden of due diligence.
But anyway, your original standard in 2 was “If ‘good’ and ‘bad’ mean anything, then we can picture a state of universal pain, anguish, and quick death that we would have to call ‘supremely bad’.” And there is no question, none whatever, that hedonists pass this standard. So what should you do now? Stop using this flimsy ass standard as if it accomplishes anything for your side. It’s a time waster.
The reason why the sociopath and sadist are relevant examples, for the umpteenth time, is because you are charged with telling me or them why they have compelling reasons not to be the way they are, and to change their ways.
The reason the example of the Taliban is relevant, again for the umpteenth time, is because they offer an intelligible moral system, and so you have to show that reference to well-being can resolve fundamental moral disagreements.
The Taliban’s belief is that what Allah commands should be done and is the most praseworthy thing that to do. If you want to insist that this doesn’t count as morality at all, then tell me what distinguishes
“morality is djnoiwuvbnwo” and
“morality is the mini-tornados that form in my backyard”
from “our moral beliefs tell us that Allah’s command is to be done, even if it’s throwing battery acid in a little girl’s face.”
If there is no distinction, then you haven’t given us any reason to believe that the last even disagrees with our moral system at all (the first two clearly don’t). If you want to say that the last disagrees because it challenges our view of well-being, well then stop trying to win the argument by definition and give me reasons why the rival moral conception shouldn’t believe what it does in the first place.
I’d like to draw this to a close now. I doubt that anyone else is reading, so how about taking it to email.
In fact, if you treasure any particular part of this discussion, or all of it, you might want to save it somewhere, because I think I’ll prune it after awhile. It’s too unwieldy now.
Comments are open again for awhile, but do keep anything you don’t want to disappear, because I might prune it later.
Alasdair, J. Jeffers, Jason, et al.
Sorry for disappearing… I got sidetracked for a week by a minor but very time consuming medical crisis in the family; I haven’t just been blowing y’all off.
I’ve written a few things up, but right now I’m reading a little Mackie and Joyce and want to revisit what I wrote to see if it still seems clear(ish) and correct(ish), edit it down a bit, etc.
Going way back to Alasdair’s #126 here…
Well, gold is a common example of a natural kind, but the first thing you have to realize is that it’s a common example largely because it’s an especially “easy” case used to get the very basic idea across. The fact that gold is an “easy” case doesn’t mean that more complex phenomena aren’t also natural kinds, or that we shouldn’t take that same basic approach.In fact, the gold case was much, much weirder historically than it appears in retrospect, and the ways that it was actually not simple and easy are enlightening for the purposes of making sense of “error theory.” They show that people can use terms in extremely mistaken ways, and yet still successfully refer and say at least some things that have clear truth conditions, even if those truth conditions don’t become clear for thousands of years.We did have many examples of non-gold things that were purportedly gold (like “fools gold,” i.e., iron pyrite, and various purported gold ores), examples of “gold” things that were only arguably gold (various alloys), and things that were purportedly “nearly” gold or “sorta” gold and transmutable into prototypical gold (e.g. lead).We also had utterly mistaken ideas as to what made gold gold at all. It was commonly believed (in Europe, anyway) that gold was gold—and had its peculiar combination of properties—only because it was a particular compound, not an element, and it wasn’t known whether it was a single unique compound or a family of indistinguishably different substances, each a more or less equivalent but different compound.It turned out that gold is gold precisely because it’s not a compound (and has its prototypical properties because it’s not an alloy), and that it was a single unique substance—or so it clearly seemed, scientifically. It also turned out that gold isn’t “close to lead”—you can’t slightly transform the same basic substance and get one from the other.Except that still later, we found out that gold is not a single unique substance after all, but a family of similar ones (isotopes of gold) and that it is basically the same thing as lead, after all, and you really can transmute one form (lead) into the other (gold) by making slight changes—just in radically different and more expensive ways than people had imagined.Notice that even after we had gotten a clear and confident scientific idea of gold, and slotted it into Mendeleyev’s periodic table as an element in the metals column, its seemingly necessary and sufficient properties kept changing in light of advances in chemistry and physics. (E.g., discoveries about the non-atomic nature of so-called “atoms,” low energy quantum chemistry, high-energy nuclear physics, etc.) At this point, we still say that gold is gold because it’s a particular kind of atom, except that atoms aren’t atomic (indivisible) particles and aren’t even particles, really, in any simple sense—they’re weird quantum field manifestations that we still call “particles,” but which don’t have unique positions and velocities, and which can even lose their individual identities and become fungible like money. (As in a Bose-Einstein condensate, which is a goo of a discrete “number” of “particles,” but is really a resonant quantum field or something like that, and not actually made of distinct individual particles at all—you can put some particles into the goo, and get some particles out, but there’s no sense in which you get out the same particular particles that you put in. “Particles” in the goo are like dollars in bank account—it doesn’t even make sense to ask whether a dollar you withdraw is the same dollar as a dollar you put in, or whether you get the same “particle” out of the condensate.)Even in the seemingly trivial case of gold, and even after we had a scientific consensus on the “definition” of gold, the “definition” of gold kept changing quite radically in a shocking variety of ways—none of the basic terms we used to describe it survived the 20th century with their necessary or sufficient conditions intact. The only reason we still call atoms “atoms” or call particles “particles” is because they’re still those actual things, whatever the heck they really are, that we got used to calling atoms and particles, and because thinking of them as atomic and particulate works well enough for some practical purposes.
And we still call gold “gold” only because it’s still that stuff—whatever the heck it turns out to really be, and whatever “stuff” turns out to really mean—that we got used to calling “gold.”That’s the philosophically radical lesson from even the seemingly simple and obvious case of “gold”—useful concepts of real-world things typically do not have known necessary and sufficient conditions, and don’t generally need them. They are primarily referential, and the intensional “meaning” of a term can be quite dramatically wrong in the most basic respects without seriously damaging its extensional meaning for most purposes. We can typically say meaningful and true (or false) things using words that we cannot actually define—and often using words that we clearly mis-define in many seemingly important ways.We often don’t know the real meanings of our terms in the sense of necessary and sufficient conditions—not even close—and we often don’t need to, because as Putnam says, “meaning is not in the head.” Meaning is a very weird function of what’s in the head and what’s in the world, and the historical, causal relations between them. It depends a whole lot less on the intension (in-head “meaning”) and a lot whole lot more on the extension (actual things being referred to) than anybody realized until the last fifty years.My impression is that many people in the field of metaethics haven’t fully absorbed this tremendously important lesson, as many people in philosophy of language and philosophy of science have. They still think that meaning is a more straightforward matter of definitions, and if your definitions are wrong, your terms don’t refer, or your statements using them are erroneous. That’s just wrong—it’s not how reference and truth actually work.
The really tricky thing is that what matters is not typically the supposed necessary and sufficient conditions of a term, or even people’s confidence about those conditions, but whether people are irrevocably committed to those conditions. Truth conditions of statements often depend on complex counterfactuals about how you could change your mind, whether you realize that you could or not, and even if you’re quite confident that you never could change your mind, but are in fact mistaken. (And that seemingly bizarre kind of the thing happens frequently in important cases.)
For example, consider an alchemist a few hundred years ago, who is about as certain of basic alchemical theory as of almost anything. She thinks she knows that gold is some compound of mostly elemental Earth, and some Fire and/or Water and/or Air, and that it’s dead obvious Gold is mostly Earth with at least a little Fire and Water in it.
For her, the basic alchemical scheme seems like what an Error Theorist about “gold” might call a non-negotiable element of her concept of gold. Everything that she thinks “gold” really means presupposes something profoundly false.
And it’s even worse than it seems—the more closely we look at the foundations of her beliefs, the wronger they are. She’s probably a believer in something like Aristotle’s “final causation,” with brute matter having irreducibly teleological (i.e., supernaturalish) properties, and thinks the whole thing was necessarily set up or supported by some God thing, which is the only kind of thing that could create or sustain matter and the irreducibly teleological essences that give different basic kinds of things the different basic properties they have.
She is profoundly and mind-bendingly wrong about almost everything she thinks, especially the things she is most certain are the most crucial to what it could possibly mean for something to actually be gold.
But that’s okay, because what she considers a necessary or sufficient condition—or a clearly “non-negotiable element” of her concept of gold—-isn’t what would actually matter to her if she knew better. She is not in “reflective equilibrium”—she’s nowhere close to knowing all the relevant facts and having worked through all of their implications—so her current opinions don’t count for much.
What does matter, in a funny way, is that if she did know all about atoms and atomic numbers isotopes and identityless particles and quantum field theory, she would change her mind almost entirely about what gold “really is,” but would still believe in gold. She would find out that she was simply mistaken about what she previously assumed were clearly non-negotiable elements of the concept.
Suppose you educated her and she “got” all that stuff about modern physics, chemistry, and atheistic, monistic naturalism, and then asked her about her former statements about gold objects—had she been in error to talk about gold at all? Were all of her previous statements about gold and gold objects fatally in error?
She would not disavow all of them as erroneous. She might be embarrassed by all her prior twaddle about uniting elemental Earth and Fire, and the God-given teleological essences of such things, but she’d still think her gold ring was a gold ring—and she would not think that she’d been wrong to say that before.
She’d think she’d been right to say her ring was made of gold (assuming it was) and to say a variety of other true things about gold as well—e.g., that gold is a metal, that it’s a little denser than lead, that it’s a lot denser than sulfur, that it’s impervious to most acids, and that a lot of expensive jewelry is made out of mostly gold and gemstones.
—
In general, to say that P(x), e.g., that ring x is has the property of being made of gold, is not to say what property P really is, or that either the speaker or listener actually knows what it is—just that presumably they could make good sense of property P, in principle, and if they knew all the relevant stuff and worked it out correctly, they’d agree that x does have that yet-to-be-determined property.
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In The Myth of Morality, Richard Joyce (an error theorist) compares morality to a different substance—phlogiston—and claims that morality is like phlogiston, not like gold.
He talks about the “non-negotiable elements” of phlogiston theory, as I did earlier, but draws what I think is the wrong conclusion from that example.
On his account, the phlogiston concept was unsalvageable because it had some “non-negotiable elements” (necessarily necessary conditions) in it—phlogiston must be a substance, it must be emitted by combustion, and must smother fires in sufficient concentrations. When we found that there was no substance like that, and that what actually smothers fires is the absence of sufficient oxygen, we abandoned the concept of phlogiston.
I think that’s right, as far as it goes—that is what happened to phlogiston, which we came to believe, on rational reflection in light of the relevant facts, did not actually exist. We were irrevocably committed to certain particulars of phlogiston theory—they were the whole point of phlogiston theory, because it was a very theoretical construct designed to solve a certain specific problem in a certain specific way.
Where I think Joyce goes wrong is in making the analogy to morality. I don’t think morality is like phlogiston. It’s not an abstract theoretical construct designed to solve a particular problem in a certain way. It’s a natural phenomenon that we have examples of, and our concepts of morality are much more flexible in certain crucial ways than our concept of phlogiston.
It’s more like gold. (And even more like money, but I’ll stick to the gold example for now.) It’s certainly a stranger and hairier case than gold, but I think that as with gold, our concepts of morality can survive some truly radical revision, and that what individuals may think a priori are clearly necessary features of moral rightness or wrongness turn out not to be essential after all—and often, not even important—without making non-referential nonsense of all of their naive statements.
Unlike Joyce, I think we can fairly drastically revise our concepts of morality and still recognize the resulting “morality” as morality, i.e., basically the same thing we’d really been talking about all along in a superficial but useful way—who’s a creep, who’s an asshole, who’s a deluded kook, and who’s a slimy weasel. Little actually depends on whether there’s a God, or a supernaturalish essence of morality, or even on true absoluteness or ultimate universality.
At the end of the day, we can still condemn creeps, assholes, kooks and weasels in pretty much the same sense we ever did—not just saying that we personally don’t like them, but by pointing out that they fail to meet certain “impersonal” and non-arbitrary standards which we can agree on, in certain ways.
For that general cognitive account of moral talk to “work”—to refer, and to be truth-apt, and at least sometimes be true or false—it doesn’t matter exactly how the impersonal and non-arbitrary standard actually works, or even whether we currently agree on what the relevant standard is, or even whether we ever actually come to agreement about it. We don’t even have to agree on how we could eventually come to agreement about it, so long as (unbeknownst to us) we could.
Think about somebody in 1400 referring to “a gold ring.” They might have no idea that their ideas of gold-ness are profoundly wrong, or any conception of how you’d actually sort out what gold-ness really is—what really happened in chemistry and physics wasn’t on the radar—but as long as there is a possibility of sorting out what gold-ness really is, the statement has the obvious meaning: whatever gold turns out to be, and it is something, and however we’d eventually figure that out, if you figured it out, that ring is made of something that would pretty clearly count as gold.
The statement would have been referential, meaningful, and true in 1400, even if a meteor had killed everyone on Earth in 1401, such that nobody could ever figure out what it had really meant.
—
In general, when we say that some P(x) is true, e.g., that act x is morally wrong, we’re not saying that we currently know the definition of property P, or that the definition of P is very well-defined or precisely definable, or even that we’re not very profoundly mistaken about the ultimate nature of P. We’re just saying that we think P could in principle be defined with sufficient precision and correctness to say that P(x), and that we think the listener would eventually come to agree, on reflection, that P(x), if the listener knew all the relevant stuff and thought it through correctly.
Consider the claim that “gay marriage is morally wrong.”
The speaker of that statement doesn’t have to know the conditions of its being true or false for it to be true or false. What they’re basically saying is that
(1) they think sufficient sense could in principle be made of the terms, e.g., “gay,” “marriage,” and “morally wrong,” somehow, and that if that happened,
(2) it would become clear that gay marriage counts as wrong.
In essence, it’s just a claim that if everybody (in some audience) actually knew the real meanings of the terms, and reasoned things through correctly, they’d agree with the statement.
(And typically the audience in question is fairly broad, arguably everybody, but exactly how broad is just not much thought about. Questions of absolute universality of moral judgments are not normally on the radar, or at least not in a deep, irrevocable way that makes them criterial IMO.)
It’s not a claim that sociopaths or irrational people or woefully ignorant people or stupid people would agree.
It’s not a claim that the speaker really understands the terms at any deep level. The speaker typically doesn’t, and typically knows that she doesn’t.
Most people don’t claim to have a truly deep understanding of right and wrong—they think it’s rather mysterious, even irreducibly mysterious. They don’t have any clearer idea about the ultimate nature of wrongness than a prescientific person has about gold-ness. That’s not even on the radar, any more than quantum field theory was on the radar for a 15th-century alchemist.
More importantly, I think most people are very flexible on the deep issues, even if they think they aren’t. They are no more irrevocably committed to their weird preconceptions about, say, Divine Command Theory or metaphysically dirty sinful souls than a 15th-century alchemist was irrevocably commited to the idea that gold was necessarily mostly made of elemental Earth.
They may be quite convinced that God doesn’t like gay marriage, and that God’s opinion is necessarily correct, but IMO they generally aren’t irrevocably committed to that belief, so it doesn’t much affect the real, to-be-determined meaning of their statement, or its truth value.
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Moral error theory is really audacious.
It’s not just claiming that a lot of our moral claims are confused and don’t survive scrutiny in light of facts and reflection—everybody reasonable knows that—it’s claiming that all of them are profoundly and unsalvageably confused.
it’s not just claiming that we’re profoundly mistaken in our necessary and sufficient conditions for some of our common moral terms—everybody reasonable knows that, too—it’s saying that about all of them.
More to to the point, it’s not just saying that all of our moral terms are profoundly mistaken, but that if we use them to express moral judgments at all, we’re not just mistaken, and not just presupposing falsehoods, and not just systematically mistakenly presupposing falsehoods… but are irrevocably committed to making precisely those fatal mistakes. (As phlogiston theorists were irrevocably committed to the idea that phlogiston is a particular substance that smothers fires. )
That’s a really big claim, and difficult to prove—and Mackie, at least, acknowledges that it’s a very big claim and that the burden of proof is on the error theorist—-and I personally think it’s false. (I could be wrong, I suppose.)
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That is one of the reasons that Harris uses “easy” examples like sociopathic killers and sadists, female genital excision, suicide bombing, and grotesquely disutilitarian obsessions with wacko ideas of ritual purity and taboos.
Those are easy cases for him, but more importantly they’re difficult cases for the error theorists. (And radical relativists.)
To show that error theory is wrong, or at least quite suspect, Harris doesn’t have to show that his own detailed moral scheme is correct, or anything close to that—and likely he is making miscellaneous mistakes there, because it’s early days still. (I do think he is.)
Whether Harris’s own strongly Utilitarian scheme is actually correct is irrelevant to whether error theory is wrong—if he’s right about even one admittedly extreme example, that’s enough to refute error theory.
To argue against error theory, Harris only has to show that there is at least one moral judgment that does not depend on being irrevocably committed to a fatal misconception about the necessary or sufficient conditions of morality.
Harris does not have to be able to convince a sociopath to act morally. Nobody is irrevocably committed to the idea that there aren’t bad people who will never listen to moral talk in the motivating that way we would want. Most thoughtful people in all cultures have always thought there were hopelessly bad people, or at least been able to entertain the notion without it threatening the basic ideas of moral people and moral judgment.
(Even religious people who think that all persons are “fundamentally good” generally acknowledge that there could in principle be some exceptions—e.g., that you’re unlikely to ever talk Satan himself around to being a nice guy. And even if Plato thought that truth would necessarily lead to virtue, I don’t think that was an irrevocable commitment—Plato wouldn’t have had to abandon the very concept of moral judgment if he’d found out the facts about sociopaths and had to revise that belief.)
Likewise, to argue against error theory, Harris does not have to demonstrate that he can actually argue Taliban acid-throwers around to realizing that they don’t have good reason for disfiguring girls for the sin of going to school. He only has to make it plausible that their moral justifications for such obviously and grotesquely disutilitarian acts are grounded in errors of fact that keep them away from reflective equilbrium—e.g., about the existence of God, the authority of the Koran, the metaphysics of sin and retribution, the nature of female psychology, etc.—and that like the rest of us, they’d agree that without an extremely good rationale to justify it, painfully disfiguring girls is a morally bad thing for the usual cross-cultural moral reasons. It’s not like Taliban supporters don’t get the idea that gratuitously harming innocent people is wrong, all other things being equal.
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Consider a conversation between me and Sam Harris, in which we agree that sociopaths are morally defective people, and that the Taliban acid-throwers are doing something wrong due to screwed-up beliefs.
For error theory to be true, both of those claims must not only embody mistakes, but hinge on those mistakes in such a way that we can never fix our concepts of morality on further reflection, and agree that we’d been right to say that sociopaths are morally defective, even if we’d been mistaken about some aspects of morality.
Error theory not only says that we’re wrong to say those things, as we understand the concepts now, but will always be wrong no matter how much we learn about morality and revise our beliefs—i.e., a proper understanding of moral judgment will always reveal a fatal and unfixable mistake in our concepts.
Color me skeptical of such extreme moral skepticism. Maybe Harris and I will eventually realize that strongly Utilitarian morality is wrong, and become more or less deontological about ethics. Maybe we’ll realize that well-being is a horribly and irremediably and irreducibly controversial. Maybe we’ll seriously re-think what we mean by moral objectivity. Maybe we’ll see the error of our morally judging ways in a whole variety of senses like that.
Still, I seriously doubt that we’ll ever ditch the idea that all other things being equal, habitually inflicting grievous harm on people for no good reason (except that you want to harm them) is basically “wrong,” and that people who just don’t care about such things are basically “bad” people. If there are any distinctive “non-negotiable elements” of our moral concepts, those are good candidates.
They are better candidates for non-negotiable elements of our (Harris and my) moral discourse than, say, any strong sense of objectivism. If push came to shove, we’d become relativists before we ditched the idea that utility has to matter at least somewhat, somehow, whether it’s in a straight Utilitarian sense or in a more abstract deontological sense.
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I think that Harris and I are actually “relativists” in an important sense. We clearly don’t think there’s any magical reason-giving power of moral discourse that motivates sociopaths—if you can’t buy in to the general idea that utility matters at least somewhat, somehow, there’s not much we can say to you. We realize that we’re appealing to an “external” standard that is not dictated or endorsed by God, and not irreducibly woven into the basic fabric of reality. We also realize that that external standard is
We could also be mistaken, in principle, about the cross-cultural appeal of our concepts of right and wrong, and how that relates to morality as a natural kind.
Suppose, for example, that we found out that the Taliban types were completely and permanently stuck in their honor culture’s mode of moral reasoning, and would stay in that basic mode even if they realized that there was no God, that the Koran was a load of horseshit dictated by an illiterate kook, that women were not naturally inferior to men, that their distaste for homosexuals and pigs was just a matter of fairly arbitrary but entrenched preferences, that there was no libertarian free will to help rationalize their vindictive sense of retributive justice, and so on and so forth.
Suppose, that is, to Harris’s and my utter shock and amazement, those people learned all the relevant stuff and reasoned it all through, and in reflective equilibrium they still felt that
(1) sex outside of marriage was just wrong and sinful (for females mostly)
(2) sex or romantic love between men was just wrong
(3) it was right for women to submit to men, despite being comparably capable of intelligent thought and responsible judgment,
(4) it was good maim their little girls sexually, to help enforce the standards of female purity and submission,
(5) it was important to maintain certain standards of dietary and behavioral “purity” even if they had no particular metaphysical warrant, and no interesting practical consequences except some generally disutilitarian ones…
etc., etc.
Imagine that they were in fact irrevocably committed to irreducibly authoritarian and retributive morality.
Suppose, for simplicity, it turned out that there were exactly two coherent natural kinds of fully-informed, reflectively stable morality—the at-least-roughly consquentialist-at-some-level kind of morality that Harris and I go for, and the vindictive, authoritarian, purity-obsessed kind that the the Taliban goes for. (Yikes!)
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That’s analogous to another standard example of a weird natural kind term—“arthritis.”
When people named arthritis, they assumed it was a single natural kind, and they tended to call all kinds of joint pain “arthritis,” assuming that all or most such joint pains had basically the same etiology, i.e., were symptoms of the same basic underlying disease process.
As it happens, over the centuries people recognized that some things that they’d called arthritis were interestingly different, like bursitis, and came up with special names for them, and stopped calling those things “arthritis.” (Rather like realizing that iron pyrite is “fool’s gold,” not real gold.) Still, they assumed that most of the remaining seemingly-good examples of “arthritis” were examples of a particular disease.
Unfortunately, when the scientific truth about arthritis eventually came out, it turned out that many examples of “arthritis” were one thing—osteoarthritis, but a very comparable number were something else entirely—rheumatoid arthritis.
At that point, it was hopeless to say which kind of “arthritis” was the real thing. They were just two quite different natural kinds of disease that both caused joint stiffness and pain, one affecting bone tissue directly and the other affecting other joint tissues, and together accounted for most of what we’d been calling “arthritis” and assumed was a single disease (or very closely related family of diseases).
If (psychologist) Jonathan Haidt is right, morality is like arthritis—there are two basic “natural kinds” of morality, both firmly rooted in human nature, but in different ways, and with incommensurable basic premises at the internal, psychological level.
Like Harris, I think Haidt is partly right, but basically wrong in where he goes with that idea. I think there are deep and interesting reasons why conservative/authoritarian morality tends to emphasize certain things like purity, sacredness, and obedience, while more liberal morality tends to retain those emphases only insofar as they can be justified in terms of utility and fairness. Like Harris, I think that those are mostly differences of degree, and that strongly authoritarian morality tends to evolve toward the more liberal form in reflective equilibrium—the differences in the two basic “natural kinds” Haidt describes are not incommensurable on reflection, and the authoritarian/purity emphasis is largely dependent on being far from reflective equilibrium.
Suppose for the moment that Haidt is right, even righter than he thinks he is, and Harris and I turn out to be quite empirically wrong. Suppose that there turn out to be two basic kinds very well-defined and reflectively stable kinds of morality, with different etiologies.
That would be very annoying, and would certainly complicate our rhetoric about many issues. There would be many things about which we couldn’t talk about x being right or wrong in a natural kinds sense—even in their respective reflective equilibria, there’d be right-by-authoritarian-standards, and wrong-by-liberal-standards, and so on.
Still, that doesn’t mean that there aren’t common features of both kinds of morality, with common consequences for what counts as right and wrong in at least some cases. Both common basic schemes clearly include a certain amount of concern for consequences at some level, be it direct consequentialism, or a more abstract deontological concern about kinds of actions which prototypically have which kinds of consequences. In one scheme, that concern for others may be irreducible, and in the other, may be reduced to obedience to God, who wants that. Whatever.
So even positing some irreducible and incommensurable premises at several levels, you still get some moral “universals” across both natural kinds in reflective equilibrium—e.g., it’s wrong (one way or another), all other things being equal, to wantonly inflict grievous harm.
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I’m not at all sure what you were trying to say with that paragraph, and those examples. Sorry if I’m off-base in the following…
I don’t think it should be the least bit surprising that people disagree both on seemingly big things that seem obvious to most people, and on seemingly subtler things that are less obvious to most people—that’s exactly what you should expect in disagreements in any poorly understood area, not just about morality.
It’s also not surprising that people disagree cross-culturally about many specifics. Particular cultures’ moral schemes tend to evolve to justify the status quo, and in particular to justify the exploitation of out-groups. (And to get victims within society to go along with their own exploitation.)
One important question is how they do that—do they do that by
(1) primarily activating different basic aspects of human nature, such that moral systems are deeply incommensurable, as Haidt would have it, or by
(2) culturally constructing human nature in fairly arbitary ways that work because human nature is open to all sorts of things, as radical cultural relativists and social constructionists would have it, or by
(3) systematically misleading people—e.g., introducing various spurious “facts” that serve to justify what would otherwise obviously be objectionable. (E.g, God and his Divine Will, god-given features of people that suit them to particular roles and not others, god-given and hence irreducible aspects of vindictive “justice,” etc.)
Both of your examples above—abortion and Taliban acid-throwing—seem pretty clearly to largely hinge on disagreements of fact, not just on incommensurable moral intuitions.The abortion issue—as it’s typically argued in American politics anyhow—clearly hinges on a difference of non-moral belief: whether substance dualism is true, and human beings necessarily or sufficiently have souls of that sort. The people who are broadly anti-abortion generally believe that human embryos and fetuses have human souls, are therefore persons, and therefore have human interests and human rights.IMO, they are simply objectively factually wrong about at least that. If they understood the relevant science, and ditched the theology that it undermines, that would take away their main argument. That’s not to say that we wouldn’t still have arguments about abortion, but at least we could get around to real issues like basic theory of personhood, moral interests and rights, etc. IMO, that’d be huge progress.
A patriarchal honor culture isn’t just a culture that’s incommensurably different from ours in certain inarguable moral “preferences”—it’s based on a whole host of profound factual errors and errors of reasoning, and there’s a huge system of bullshit of rationalizations evolved to defend it. It takes some serious hardcore propositional bullshit to get many people in any culture to think it’s okay to throw battery acid in little girls’ faces for “offenses” like going to school. (Or in women’s faces for offenses like not enclosing themselves in a full-body bags whenever they’re in public.)Similarly, I think it’s pretty clear that the Taliban acid-throwers don’t mostly have inarguably different preferences about styles of justice or how to treat girls. Their ideas of justice and their ideas about girls are very much grounded in specific beliefs about justice and girls, very much interdependent with religious beliefs.
I’m pretty sure that sociopaths do have different, incommensurable preferences from the rest of us—they just don’t care about others’ well being.
I’m also pretty sure that’s not mainly what’s going on with authoritarian, patriarchal, vindictive religious morality. That sort of thing is highly evolved to make you ignorant and stupid in a whole bunch of ways, so that you can’t see cruelty and injustice as cruelty and injustice.
J. Jeffers,
I’ve composed and shelved several responses to earlier posts of yours, because I’m still a bit confused as to what we’re really arguing about.
For the time being, I’d like to put aside what Harris does or doesn’t say and whether he’s right—or consistent—to reduce the number of plates in the air. I think defending Harris per se is a bit problematic at least to the extent that his high-level rhetoric sometimes doesn’t match what I think he’s actually doing, and it would be better to get clear on what you and I agree or disagree on, before getting back to the subject of what Harris says and what IMHO he really means, whether he really agrees with himself, and which bits you and I agree or disagree with.
I am still puzzled about what anomalous reason-giving powers that you think I mistakenly think my kind of moral argument has, and what “queerness” really means in Mackie’s terminology.
I’ll refer back to your earlier posts, and try to clarify my remaining confusion pretty shortly. Unfortunately, the copy of Mackie’s book that I requested from the library seems not to actually exist, as the library computer said it did, so I don’t have Mackie’s actual text handy to refer to. :-(
I’m also a bit unclear on what you mean by a “modest evaluative realism.” That might be a term I could use and be happy with; I’m not sure.
Paul W,
I think this is a little too quick. Moral skeptics don’t say that our terms don’t refer to anything at all, they say the terms couldn’t refer to what moral statements presuppose is true, because these properties would contradict naturalism, and would be mysterious. We can be wrong about the cognitive content (this content is what the descriptive theory of reference stresses) of what we think we’re referring to, but still be tagging something real in the world with our terms (the causal theory is strong here).
It seems to me that error theory is actually a more modest epistemological view. Moral realism is the one that claims moral reasons are compelling (else what’s “real” about morality, if there are no non-prudential reasons?).
In any case, it’s true that error theory states that all moral statements are false (both those offered by acid throwing members of the Taliban, and the reasons offered from liberal Westerners). As for the part about confusion, well, I suppose if “wrong” can be synonymous with “confusion,” then ok. But in order to qualify as an error theorist, one only needs to commit to the belief that moral statements are false (whether they’re confused above and beyond that is another matter. I mean, I could be committed to the idea that people know just what they mean, but that they’re wrong, a be an error theorist in good standing).
And of course, you could revise your idea of what your own moral terms refer to, and if they don’t give anyone else that doesn’t already agree with you a reason, then fine. But all forms of cognitivism (which error theory is one) and non-cognitivism (for that matter) are motivated, at bottom, to offer an interpretation of what our moral terms mean. You would have to show they don’t mean what they are commonly thought to, in order to refute the error theorist. I think it would be news to Sam Harris and the vast bulk of his admirers that his thesis can’t provide reasons to anyone that doesn’t already agree at bottom (which the Taliban don’t). So a revision of what we mean by our moral terms may be a nice accomplishment, but we have to make sure we’re talking about The Moral Landscape, and not just off on our own philosophical mining trips, when we’re ostensibly talking about whether the thesis of TML succeeds. If it doesn’t, then it doesn’t seem like it’s 90% right, just with a couple of flaws. Rather, it would seem to need radical revision itself.
This misses something very important. See, in order to show that one example of a moral statement isn’t committed to the falsehoods that error theorists seize on, Harris would have to show either
A) that the kind of (reason-giving) properties error theorists find improbable actually exist
or
B) people don’t make such presuppositions in all moral claims.
So you see, using these horrible examples that seem really obviously wrong are exactly the wrong examples to use, because the presuppositions in A would have to be in play first, in order for our moral beliefs about acid throwing and the like to be true in the first place. For the record, the properties that error theorists think are too implausible are in the ability of morality to give reasons. If you don’t think there are such reasons, then you are talking past them.
We can think of, and there no doubt are, people involved in horrible regimes and lives, committing horrible acts, that have no prudential reasons to change their ways. But it is these very horrible things that bother us the most. So in order for these people to actually have reasons to change their ways, some of those very robust presuppositions in A would have to be in place. So these cases may seem easy, but they’re actually the hardest ones, if reason-giving is an essential part of morality.
What we could show is that moral claims don’t make the claim to universality, in which case B is in play. But after listening to Harris on his whirlwind book tour, and reading TML, do you really think moral claims don’t make this kind of claim, or that Harris is satisfied with an epistemological live and let live (even as we clash in real life) with those that disagree with us radically on what kind of life to live?
I agree on part: I don’t think that Harris has to actually argue anyone around to realizing they’re wrong. But he does have to show how he could do it in theory. So, how bout just convincing error theorists that there are facts of the matter that adjudicate between the moral claims of the Taliban and the moral claims we make? It’s not only about what we can say to the immoral (or amoral) person, but what we can say about them. So let’s forget talking to them, and let’s talk about them. What reason do you have to offer them?
Unfortunately, your reasoning means that they’re not making moral mistakes, only factual ones. But that’s not what we think. Let’s pretend I can convince you that the theology metaphysical belief system of the Taliban is correct. Do you then think you’re obliged to do things like throwing battery acid in a little girl’s face? Again, I thought we’ve known better than that since The Euthyphro. Saying Allah commanded something horrible, says our moral discourse, is a BAD moral reason. It’s not that it’s just inaccurate in the sense that Allah doesn’t exist. It’s that even if he does exist, that’s a BAD thing to do. Again, Richard Dawkins normally gets kudos when he claims that the Judeo Christian god isn’t worhty of worship. You’re cutting off the part of our moral discourse that can make such judgments, when you reduce the disagreement between us and the Taliban to differing background beliefs.
More importantly, the idea that there are facts of the matter that justify their ceteris peribus belief that throwing battery acid is wrong is also in question, so relying on that fact that we could garner agreement is circular. We can agree on all sorts of things that aren’t true.
And in any case you ignore the sociopath. Again, let’s just talk about the sociopath, not to the sociopath. The sociopath doesn’t base lack of concern for moral norms on any background theology, but just doesn’t care. You can’t say the sociopath is defective unless you can come up with non-prudential reasons why the sociopath should change, (stop being a sociopath). So if you’re prepared to say that not only are there no reasons that you can offer the determined sociopath, but that you have no basis for calling the sociopath defective, then I think you should signal that very loudly, in order to get feedback Harris and his admirers on whether they are satisfied that the thesis of TML can’t do enough work for you to be able to claim more than that.
I don’t think this is right. I think error theory, as a form of cognitivism, offers an interpretation of what moral statements mean. If we started meaning something different on account of revising our beliefs, then the interpretation wouldn’t apply. We could, for example, start meaning something consistent with meta-ethical moral relativism, (which is what Phillipa Foot once suggested in “Morality as a System of Hypothetical Imperatives”) in which case error theory wouldn’t apply. Then again, saying openly and honestly to ourselves that there is nothing that can adjudicate the claims we and the Taliban make on matters of morality, and that we have no compelling reason to offer someone that doesn’t already agree with us, would be a big revision indeed. If you think that, then it appears to be incumbent on you to show that Sam Harris properly signaled that in his book, rather than simply reinforcing common realist assumptions about morality (which are the ones error theorists charge with being false).
If you’re not relying on obviousness, then for Hume’s sake why??? do you think these people are “bad” in a way that does justice to cognitivist-realist meanings? That’s what been the question all along..
For whatever it’s worth, I agree that we’ll never ditch the idea you say we won’t. But that’s not ultimately important. This is a “meta” conversation about what to believe, not a policy one about how to live our lives (though the two can connect somewhere, we’re still in the meta phase of belief, Harris doesn’t do a good job distinguishing these).
But in order to demonstrate realism that claims that the Taliban is wrong, we have to show more than what the terms mean to us, subjectively. We have to show that we’re justified in believing that we’re able to show more than that we simply don’t like what the Taliban do (in the kind of way I don’t like the texture of coconut), at the very least.
Paul W,
I jumped in even though your last post wasn’t addressed to me. I hope that kind of free-for-all is okay (I didn’t see your most recent post was up while I was typing). That’s what you get for being responsive. All the ones with objections to Harris flock to you.. Anyway, for this sub topic, I’ll shelve the issues you ask me to.
I’ll get to your questions in a couple minutes..
Post# 274:
Paul W,
When we make moral statements, particularly the kinds we’re most passionate about, like “it’s morally wrong to throw battery acid in a little girl’s face,” we mean something more than an expression of taste (against non-cognitivism). I know we agree on this because you’re advancing moral realism. We also mean something more than “prudentially advisable” when we make moral claims. There may be some doubt about this. If there is, then consider how it would sound to say
“well, if we can find a way for it to be in someone’s best prudential interests not to throw battery acid in a little girl’s face, then we’ll be justified in saying it’s wrong. But if we can’t determine that it’s in someone’s best prudential interests, our claim isn’t forceful, and is only justified as a matter of taste.”
Do you agree that this would sound weird? If it would, that should be a clue that we mean more than “advised by prudence” just like we mean more than “yuk” when we make moral claims (that’s what I mean when I get coconut shavings in my mouth, not when I want to condemn the holocaust).
Now, in order for what we mean to go through, we have to show more than that there is a real phenomena that our moral terms refer to. We have to show that those moral terms give reasons (so whatever it is that our moral terms refer to must give reasons). If we can’t show that, then calling sociopahts “defective” just means “defective to our purposes” when our purposes haven’t been demonstrated to be better than the purposes of the Nazi’s, in which case those that hid Jews in their basements and attacks could be “defective” from the perspective of the Nazi’s (so labeling someone “defective” in this case, shouldn’t make us feel like we’ve done anything much more significant than flattering ourselves).
This seems like a good place to talk about the “modest evaluative realism” I mentioned earlier, that you’ve asked me about. See apparently there has been some doubt as to whether there are facts of the matter that govern reasons at all. This is kinda esoteric for the topic we’re on, but this has to do with what kinds of things we say are factual. So do motivations link up to the world at all? Is evaluating effectiveness a factual matter, or merely imposed?
I’ve seen no one in my reading of philosophy doubt these things, but people are often concerned to prove them, which is why I say they’ve “apparently” been in doubt. J.L. Mackie certainly doesn’t doubt them, and goes out of his way to say that once a standard has been agreed upon, that judgments of how much a specimen embodies the standard is certainly a matter of fact.
So in one sense, moral reasoning isn’t “irrational” per se, and is on as good a footing of many others kinds of means-end or prudential or practical kinds of reasoning.
The problem is, when goals we say are morally good are the content of what fills in certain standards, the force of the standards come not from the goodness of the goal,in that case, but from the logic of the reasoning. You can demonstrate that morality can be reasonable, that is. But the content of this kind of reasoning is interchangeable. The Nazi’s were very systematic, so we can be assured that they reasoned very syllogistically and “rationally” in ways that makes our skin crawl. So, the fact that moral goodness can be rational shouldn’t be of much comfort, if immorality can be just as rational (which it can).
We don’t withdraw our moral claims on people that do horrible things when they tell us they don’t share our goal. This is a clue that we mean more than “prudent” or “imprudent” when we say “good” or “bad” in the moral context. But, I do believe there are facts that adjudicate between what’s imprudent or imprudent, and I believe certain standards of evaluation are factual, like in music, theatre, dog showing, etc. This is not because I think it can be demonstrated that aesthetic properties fly down from Plato’s heaven, but because certain standards are established in the first place to judge such things. But again the problem is, even morally “bad” things can underwrite rational standards of evaluation.
If I strain, I suppose I can see why someone, somewhere may have been motivated to be skeptical of even this modest norm of evaluation or prudence. In the case of prudence, we often project our plans onto the world, and in such cases the world doesn’t come carved up waiting to show us the best way to do something. We have to pick out what most saliently informs our search. We may be tempted, in the course of our search, to say misty eyes things about how we’re creating the facts ourselves, but never mind, I can’t get too excited about being skeptical even of instrumental or prudential norms. But I do think morality demands more of us than that.
This “more” is what Mackie thought was “queer.” Combined with my last long post (#275) I think it should be becoming clear what I’m getting at: Moral reasons claim to give reasons in spite of what we want.
if there are no such reasons, then our reason-giving habits in moral discourse are subject to an error theory.
For evidence of what we do mean when we give moral reasons, we don’t withdraw them when it’s explained that the acid thrower doesn’t share our goals. So even when it’s shown that the acid thrower has no prudential reason not to throw the acid, we still condemn the acid throwing. This indicates that moral reasons are more than reasons of mere prudence. If there were such reasons, from the perspective of naturalism, those reasons would be “queer” (of course Mackie would say naturalism was the least queer metaphysic to choose from).
J and Paul, can you continue this via email now so that I can close it? I don’t think anyone else is playing, and I think it’s too unwieldy already.
In summary, reasons are central. In order to maintain the core meanings in moral discourse, you would have to show that reasons exist to be moral even when we don’t want to be moral, and even when we can gain a lot of pleasure and power from being immoral. Standards of how effective something is toward achieving a certain goal is where the word “defective” gets its intelligible meaning. So in this way you’re right, from our perspective, and for our purposes, the sociopath is defective. I hope it’s clear that you can’t intelligibly mean more than this by your use of “defective” unless there are the “queer” reasons Mackie doubted.
And see, those that don’t share our goals could see us as defective toward their purposes. If you’re going to say there’s no fact of the matter that can adjudicate between the respective claims of who is and isn’t defective when the claims come from different worldviews, then your status as a moral realist in is question (not that you can’t make in the backdoor somehow, but it would be more modest than Harris is saying he can achieve).
We don’t condemn the sociopath or acid thrower for merely not fitting, but for being wrong at bottom for their lack of concern for what we believe to be “good.” If someone else gets pleasure for doing something horrible, and cares not for “well-being” then we say they’re morally wrong. Now, do they have a reason not to be morally wrong, and is the lack of concern for what we say is morally right a kind of defective quality?
If so, then we would have to show that this is more than merely defective to our purposes, because we could be defective toward some other purpose (unless we could show they have a reason to be compelled by our purposes). It would have to mean that there are reasons for the “bad” or amoral person to care about and pursue what’s morally right even when all the prudential reasons stack up on the side of doing something bad.
If none of this can be accomplished, then we’re left saying “It’s morally wrong to throw battery acid in a little girl’s face, but there is nothing defective about anyone that does it, because there is no reason for the acid thrower not to do it, when there are prudential reasons in favor of of the action.”
The word “defective” can still be used even after we say this, but when it’s out in the open that all this means is whether or not something effectively meets some pre-existing goal or standard (and that these goals and standards can’t be ranked against one another) then I think you’ll find the concept “defective” doesn’t do the work you want it to.
OK, yeah, how do I do that? Post my email? Get you to give Paul my email?
J. Jeffers (#268) – The reason the example of the Taliban is relevant, again for the umpteenth time, is because they offer an intelligible moral system, and so you have to show that reference to well-being can resolve fundamental moral disagreements.
You are steadfastly ignoring an actual issue, namely that there is an argument to be made that the Taliban are not proposing a moral system. I spelt that out step by step, it’s really not that hard. As I said in #267, if you won’t seriously address that point—after all, you brought it up yourself and accepted it as a central criterion—then that’s too bad, because I think we could have gotten some traction in that direction.
Thanks everybody for making this a stimulating discussion!
J, sure, I’ll send Paul your email address (I take the above as permission!). Peter, you?
Peter,
I asked you to distinguish between “morality is jdnoiwvnew” and “morality is the mini-tornados that form in my backyard” from “morality compells me to throw battery acid in a little girl’s face.”
I’ve given you my distinction. The latter claims that there are reasons to do such a thing, because it is praiseworhty, should be done, etc. You offer no way to make the distinction.
And even if the Taliban are just sociopaths is disguise, the issue I have confronted you with time and time again is the one of reasons. You haven’t responded, but have ignored it.
I’ve asked you what the Taliban are offering, if it’s not a moral system, and you haven’t answered. I’ve asked you to provide reasons that compel the sociopath and acid thrower, and you’ve ignored that. I’ve pointed out that you have to show that the Taliban aren’t merely “not moral” because “morality is indviowuen” is not moral too, but it’s not immoral.
I’ve explained that simply calling something “not moral” does not settle the issue, because “morality is the mini-tornados that form in my back yard” is not moral too.
You need REASONS. And yet you’ve ignored that.
And you have the gall to tell me I’m ignoring something crucial? You are so glib, Peter.
Peter is too glib to talk to. He made a contribution to a public debate without doing his due diligence on the topic, or making a good faith effort during the discussion like Paul W. He’s ignored virtually all of my substantive points all the while condescending that I’m missing something crucial. And yes, Ophelia, you may give out my email, to anyone involved in this thread, even Peter.
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