Why feminism must embrace reason and shun religion
When I was four, I was an angel in the school nativity play. I had wanted to be the angel Gabriel, but my teacher had gently informed me that Gabriel was a boy. Mary had already been cast, so the only parts left for other girls were generic angels. I was disappointed but then I realised, what did Mary do exactly? It seemed to my young mind that all she did was have a baby; it was the baby that everyone was interested in, and the baby was a boy. I soon learned that all the good parts to play in this story belonged to the boys, and with every passing school year and corresponding nativity play, I felt more and more put out. There were also other things about my C of E school that bothered me — when we prayed, we said ‘our father’, but there was no mention of a mother. There was a son, but no daughter. And when we learned Bible stories, female characters were almost non-existent.
I’m not sure whether that first nativity was the moment that sowed the seed for my atheism, but as I got older, and became a feminist when I was at high school, I found the existence of an all-powerful male supernatural entity impossible to believe, and I felt that those who expected me to believe it were insulting my intelligence. I had questioned the existence of God, and found no satisfactory answers; in the same sense, I had questioned patriarchy and found it similarly wanting. To me, religion and patriarchy were inextricably linked in their natures, and I decided both were a con. As an adult, I find reinforcement for this conclusion every day; however, as I’ve become more involved with feminism, I’ve seen less criticism of religion than I expected, given the wealth of evidence concerning its negative impact on women’s lives.
Should a rape victim be expected to marry her attacker, as long as he pays her father some money? According to the Old Testament’s book of Deuteronomy (Chapter 22, Verse 29), the creator of the universe thinks so. This charming verse is not an isolated piece of divinely inspired sexism; the holy books of the main monotheistic religions (Christianity, Judaism and Islam) all contain shocking misogynist material, including many verses specifically instructing violence against women for the breach of harsh rules about sexual activity.
This fact has been commented on before, and it should be well known among feminists; rather than waste space quoting verses, I will direct you to the website ‘The Sceptic’s Annotated Bible’, which contains lists of the verses relating to women in the Koran, the Bible, and the Book of Mormon. More about Islam can be found at the blog of Kafir Girl, whose article ‘Swimmin’ in Women’ is an irreverent and detailed analysis of the behaviour of Islam’s prophet Mohammed towards women and girls. While there is simply not enough space to fully analyse each religion’s treatment of women, there is some information about the inconsistency of the Hindu texts in relation to women’s rights here, an analysis of misogyny and Buddhism here, and this page shows that even the non-violent Jains apparently can’t handle a little bit of menstrual blood.
Religious ideas harm women and restrict their lives on a daily basis. The only reason that on-demand abortion is not available to women worldwide is the prevalence of religious (most notably Catholic) beliefs that a fertilised egg is a human being. The rise of unwanted pregnancies and STDs including Aids in many countries can be directly blamed on religiously-funded abstinence programmes which are based on beliefs that contraception and sex before marriage are evil. Strong beliefs about the sanctity of a girl’s virginity and the wickedness of female sexual behaviour lead to predictable, sometimes appalling and horrific results, such as girls being buried alive, lashed and stoned to death. Former Muslim Ayaan Hirsi Ali writes eloquently in her book ‘The Caged Virgin’ about how Islamic beliefs concerning sexual desire lead to women being restricted in what they wear and how much of a life they can lead outside the home, and blamed for sexual attacks (she has received death threats for her trouble). And even as women are being harmed by such religious beliefs, they are told that the originator of these ideas, God, loves them. I assume the same kind of love is behind the Church of England being exempt from the provisions of the 1975 Sex Discrimination Act, and the laws allowing faith schools to teach girls that abortion and contraception are sinful.
Feminists know all this, or at least they ought to – the surprise is that many tolerate or even seek to apologise for it. At the very least, there seems to be much less outspoken criticism of religion from feminists than one would reasonably expect. Last year, the US website Feministing asked the question: “Can you love God and feminism?” I thought it was a no-brainer, but several people commented about how their religious faith and their feminism coexist in harmony. The moderator of the site declared these confessionals “amazing”, even though she herself had admitted that she was not religious. Atheism was the minority view, and no such gushing praise was forthcoming for the unbeliever. A quick Google search reveals many websites dedicated to faith and feminism, but comparatively few taking the opposite stance.
It is as though mainstream feminism has a ‘blind spot’ when it comes to religion, but it is not alone in this. Religion has managed to carve itself a very nice niche in society whereby any questioning of religious faith is seen to be extremely bad form. Religion seems to have a monopoly on hurt feelings, entirely unfairly in my opinion. It seems to me that some feminists are afraid of a critical discussion about religious faith, because of the ever-looming label of ‘intolerant’, ‘prejudiced’, or, when it comes to any religion besides Christianity, ‘racist’. When in fact, there is a big difference between questioning an idea (in this case: faith in the existence of a specific supernatural entity in spite of a complete lack of evidence) and hating a person or group of people. Saying that critics of religion are prejudiced is as moronic as calling feminists ‘man-haters’.
I personally do not understand how anyone can be religious and a feminist; some of the verses I read in the various holy books while researching this article made me feel sick to my stomach, and I don’t know how any feminist wouldn’t want to run as fast as they could away from such hateful nonsense. But many feminists have apparently reconciled their feminism with a religious faith, and some of the arguments used to defend this decision can be roughly summarised thus: there are other verses/texts in the religion which actually promote equality and women’s rights; the holy texts have been misinterpreted by misogynists and if interpreted correctly they actually promote equality; the texts are irrelevant to the practice of the religion itself (this article is an example of some of the arguments used from a religious feminist’s perspective).
The first argument, that some verses are more egalitarian and cancel out the nasty stuff, doesn’t hold water. It means that the best you can say about the books is that they are inconsistent. Does feminism tolerate such inconsistency in other institutions? From contemporary figures and organisations? While Tory politician Theresa May champions Conservative policies as woman-friendly, the party’s voting record says otherwise, and Tory leader David Cameron was caught out this month regarding his party’s stance on women’s rights when he opined that the abortion time limit should be reduced to 20 or 22 weeks. No feminist would be taken in by this behaviour. Why can feminism see very plainly when a political party is merely paying lip service to women’s rights, but some feminists cannot see when centuries-old books are doing exactly the same thing, only not as well?
The second argument, that the holy texts have in fact been misinterpreted and so need reinterpreting, is also rather puzzling. If a person reinterprets a holy book to give it a meaning consistent with feminism, then that person is using their own sense of equality to decide on the new interpretation. They have not got their sense of equality from the book itself; if they had, they would not be able to reinterpret it. Which begs the question, what use is the book? Even if a person managed to so creatively interpret verses in the Bible (for example) that they could allow themselves to believe that when God said “If tokens of virginity [i.e. blood on the sheets] be not found for the damsel… then the men of the city shall stone her with stones that she die” (Deut 22:21), he actually meant the exact opposite, then this is indeed ingenious, but there is no way of proving which interpretation is what the writers intended in any case, as time machines have yet to be invented.
The third argument, that the texts are not necessary to practice the religion, is the most perplexing of all. I was under the impression that holy books are supposed to contain the exact words or at least the paraphrased opinions of their god – i.e. they are the product of a man or men having had a conversation with the supposed creator and writing this down as ‘proof’ for everyone else. Without the books, where are the religions? For example, Ibn Warraq, author of ‘Why I Am Not A Muslim’, writes that one of the central tenets of Islam is that the Koran is the word of Allah as dictated to Mohammed. Is he wrong?
Next usually comes the assertion that as many people derive ‘comfort’ from religion, it must therefore be a positive thing. But religion doesn’t comfort everyone. Sometimes religion offers people a confusing cocktail of comfort and harm; sometimes, it is outright damaging. Those who are comforted shouldn’t be able to silence those who are harmed. Secondly, I agree with AC Grayling when he says: “Would we tolerate the government telling us comforting lies about, say, an accident at a nuclear plant, or a spillage of deadly viruses form a laboratory? No? Then comforting lies have their limits.” I also feel that the ‘comforting’ aspects of religion are nothing more than a sweetener to keep people believing (and filling up the collection plate).
When Karl Marx called religions “the opiate of the masses” he was referring to the way a belief in an afterlife distracted the poor from their position in Earthly society and discouraged revolutionary action. The same sentiment can be applied to women (who are more likely to be poor, in any case). If religions were replaced by real opiates (whose comforting, pain-relieving qualities are not in any doubt), to encourage conformity and discourage questioning, would any feminist defend their use? Lastly, any feminist seeking to use the ‘comfort’ argument should remember that the status quo is always comforting for someone – you could argue that many people, largely men, derive much comfort from patriarchy.
Given all of the above, I anticipate in reaction: what business is it of yours what people believe? A person’s private religious faith is none of anyone’s business and you should tolerate it. You’ve got no right to tell people what to think! And so on. These are arguments atheists come across often. Indeed this seems to be the tack that many feminists take. It appears quite difficult to argue against, but here goes. First of all, as Sam Harris points out in his book ‘The End Of Faith’, belief almost always leads to action, therefore, beliefs are very rarely truly private. Believe that it’s going to rain, and you’ll take an umbrella out with you. Believe that a clump of cells is a sacred human life, and you will join a pro-life group and lobby the government to ban abortion; you may even be successful, in which case you will contribute to the suffering and even deaths of large numbers of women. As Harris says, “Some beliefs are intrinsically dangerous.” Indeed feminists do not tolerate every belief. We reject many commonly-held beliefs, most notably the belief that males are fundamentally different from, and superior to, females.
Also, people’s religious beliefs aren’t necessarily freely chosen. The vast majority of religious people are so because they have been brought up to be religious; it has been impressed upon them from an early age that there is a divine creator, and that he should be worshipped in the following ways, and so on. In this way, ‘telling people what to believe’ is really the preserve of religion. All atheists do, if anything, is ask people to question what they believe. If children were allowed to grow up without religious influence and then asked to evaluate the evidence and decide for themselves as adults if there is a god, then it would be a different matter entirely. But this doesn’t happen.
Even in the light of all of the above, there are some who will still insist that merely believing in a loving god – having ignored or ‘reinterpreted’ all the misogynist trappings of their faith – is harmless. I don’t agree. This belief is still based on blind faith, not on evidence, and such a mindset, while promoted by religions as a virtue, is in fact damaging to society.
Just think for a moment about the patriarchal society feminists, including myself, are fighting against: what is it based on? Facts? Evidence? Reason? None of the above. Rather, it relies on faith, namely, faith that there are two distinct genders, with fundamental differences between them and that the male is the superior of the two. We are expected to believe this, even though there is no evidence for it. Actual evidence shows that there are intersex, androgynous and genderqueer people, and that the differences between the sexes are very small, with huge variation within groups (this subject is covered in depth by Deborah Cameron, in her book, ‘The Myth of Mars and Venus’). And our reason tells us that out of two human beings, one cannot be automatically superior; it tells us that if female children are showing intelligence and leaving school with excellent grades, then they ought to hold 50% of the positions of power and influence in the world. It also tells us that for the same work done, the same money ought to be paid. The continuation of patriarchy depends on the suppression of this type of evidence and reasoning, and the continued mythmaking of the media and the population. Some myths, such as those surrounding rape for example, can be very dangerous.
What is the difference between a person who simply ‘feels’ that there is a god, and a person who simply ‘feels’ that males are superior to females? Answer: nothing. Both ideas are uncontaminated by evidence. But the difference, for some feminists, seems to be that the latter view is to be fought against and the former to be tolerated and even praised. But belief in a god is a tacit approval for belief without evidence, and this mindset is frequently used in justifying prejudice and discrimination, and does nothing to combat stereotyping and harmful myths. A religious feminist might want to consider the question: how can you argue against a person who has faith in patriarchy, when you yourself cannot turn a critical eye on your own faith in a supernatural creator? And from what stance can a religious feminist argue against fellow members of the faithful who insist that God made the man the head of the family (nuclear and heterosexual, of course) and that his wife should serve him? Such a discussion would end up in a futile back-and-forth about what God thinks of women and could never be resolved (seeing as presumably, God would never actually step in and settle it himself).
Conversely, feminists can use reason to great effect when fighting against patriarchy. I’ve already mentioned above how evidence and reasoning are on our side. Learning a critical attitude, from the earliest possible age, is vital. Children naturally question things, but what is saddening is that this tendency is quashed by religious instruction that insists faith is a virtue. Laws in the UK still require ‘daily worship’ to take place in all schools; this means that the vast majority of children are learning at school (if not at home too) that there is a male creator of the universe and he had a supremely virtuous male representative on Earth – doesn’t this teach young children something damaging about gender? Doesn’t it teach developing minds to associate power with maleness, and inculcate them with the supposed virtue of ‘worshipping’? At the very least, religious instruction and assertions to ‘have faith’ discourage a questioning attitude, lessening the likelihood that children will question the many levels of unfairness in our society.
Feminists can all perhaps agree on one thing: that the status quo in the majority (if not all) of the world’s societies is harmful in many ways towards women and girls. A large part of the harm is done by religion, both directly by influencing laws, attitudes and behaviour, and indirectly by promoting the idea that faith is a virtue and thus discouraging the questioning attitude that is so vital for debunking sexism and promoting equality. It is time for feminism to be brave and have a discussion about the real effects of religious faith on women’s place in societies worldwide, not placing the blame on a few extremists but critically examining the whole institution. Religious feminists ought to be able to handle this and not rely on religion’s unfair taboo status as a defence; after all, it is about criticising ideas, not hating people. When we embrace reasoning we not only use the most effective tool, we also handily explode the irritating stereotype that women are ‘irrational’ and ‘emotional’. Perhaps one day all feminists will end up at the same conclusion I came to many years ago: it is not just that the emperor has no clothes, it is that there is no emperor at all.
Interesting…I just had a Facebook post musing on this subject and even looked at that very blog post!
I always had a hard time accepting the claims of Islamic feminism, no matter how much I wanted to believe that Islam was fully compatible with my own views of women’s rights, because what they were saying just didn’t really fit the rest of the religion and required ignoring large quantities of the sacred texts, both Qur’an and the hadith, and also the examples of Muhammad and other early Muslims. Then this rather anachronistic conception of a modern, feminist-friendly Islam was held to be the “true Islam” and critics, especially outsiders, should cease to criticize “Islam” tout court for being misogynist since actually existing Islam(s) were really just a “distortion” of Allah’s and Muhammad’s pure original message. I just couldn’t get behind all of that.
I mean the Feministe blog post. I find it a bit odd that for all the complaints about privilege and silencing, an awful lot of the religious/spiritual feminists commenting on that were more than happy to discount atheist views and take full advantage of religious privilege in American society (i.e., how dare you not treat my beliefs with respect? “Real” religion is good!).
[…] a few excerpts and indented below. I urge all readers to enjoy the well-argued and entire piece here titled Why feminism must embrace reason and shun religion. This fact has been commented on before, […]
Lisa:
Thanks for your comments! I find it quite bizarre that anyone can claim they know what any religion’s ‘true’ message is, especially if the proposed ‘true’ message is one which is in stark contrast to the texts. I’m forced to conclude that the so-called ‘true’ message is just whatever its proponents happen to want to believe.
And yes you’re right about the Feministing post; there is always a lot of discourse about privilege within feminism, with many religious feminists ignoring the fact that they have it – actually, in fact, many religious feminists seem to think it’s the other way round, that atheists are the privileged ones. When I hear our Prime Minister saying that atheists are the conscience of our country, and when schoolkids are taught to chant ‘there is no god’ in morning assemblies, perhaps I’ll believe them!
Three quotes from Amy’s article:
1) As Harris says, “Some beliefs are intrinsically dangerous.”
2) Strong beliefs about the sanctity of a girl’s virginity and the wickedness of female sexual behaviour lead to predictable, sometimes appalling and horrific results, such as girls being buried alive, lashed and stoned to death.
3) It is time for feminism to be brave and have a discussion about the real effects of religious faith on women’s place in societies worldwide, not placing the blame on a few extremists but critically examining the whole institution.
But Amy left out the appalling consequence of one belief and it’s also not a belief confined to extremists. Too mentally painful, perhaps.
According to Mark Durie, (“The Third Choice: Islam, Dhimmitude and Freedom“, ISBN 978-0-9807223-0-7, Australian imprint),
“Female circumcision is widely practiced in the Islamic world, but not equally in all regions. It is practiced, for example, in Egypt, southern Arabia, Bahrain, Kurdistan (but not among Iraqi Arabs), Somalia, northern Sudan, Brunei, Malaysia, and Indonesia. … The Achenese in Indonesia were Hindus before converting to Islam, yet they practice female circumcision, while Indian Muslims, who also converted out of Hinduism, do not generally follow the practice.
The simple explanation… is that, while all four schools of Sunni Islam allow the practice, it is only the Shafi`i school which makes it mandatory. … In this case, … belief … determines behaviour, not perfectly, but to a very significant degree.” p 13” Now visit the web site below but before doing so, be warned; the pictures are very disturbing. Don’t go there if you know yourself to be sensitive to bloodshed. This warning is particularly important given the delicate subject of this post. There are warnings on the web site itself
http://www.freecopts.net/forum/showthread.php?32575-warnning-blood-amp-violance-Female-genital-mutilation-%E2%80%9Cis-part-of-the-Sunna-of-the-Pr&p=144025
According to Ayaan Hirsi Ali in Infidel, clitoridectomy occurs 6,000 times per day worldwide.
My reason for drawing attention to this site is to emphasise Amy’s and Sam Harris’ point that some beliefs result in appalling activity and must be vigorously opposed. One form of opposition would be to post the above url link repeatedly on every feminist and Islamic website, with appropriate comments. This is one such post.
Some more information (only print) on this subject can be found at http://www.butterfliesandwheels.org/2010/circumcision-or-genital-mutilation/
Three quotes from Amy’s article.
1) ‘As Harris says, “Some beliefs are intrinsically dangerous.” ‘
2) “Strong beliefs about the sanctity of a girl’s virginity and the wickedness of female sexual behaviour lead to predictable, sometimes appalling and horrific results, such as girls being buried alive, lashed and stoned to death.”
3) “It is time for feminism to be brave and have a discussion about the real effects of religious faith on women’s place in societies worldwide, not placing the blame on a few extremists but critically examining the whole institution.”
But Amy left out the most appalling consequence of belief.
According to Mark Durie, (“The Third Choice: Islam, Dhimmitude and Freedom“, ISBN 978-0-9807223-0-7, Australian imprint),
“Female circumcision is widely practiced in the Islamic world, but not equally in all regions. It is practiced, for example, in Egypt, southern Arabia, Bahrain, Kurdistan (but not among Iraqi Arabs), Somalia, northern Sudan, Brunei, Malaysia, and Indonesia. … The Achenese in Indonesia were Hindus before converting to Islam, yet they practice female circumcision, while Indian Muslims, who also converted out of Hinduism, do not generally follow the practice.
The simple explanation… is that, while all four schools of Sunni Islam allow the practice, it is only the Shafi`i school which makes it mandatory. … In this case, … belief … determines behaviour, not perfectly, but to a very significant degree.” p 13” Now visit the web site below but before doing so, be warned; the pictures are very disturbing. Don’t go there if you know yourself to be sensitive to bloodshed. This warning is particularly important given the subject of this post. The web site itself contains warnings
http://www.freecopts.net/forum/showthread.php?32575-warnning-blood-amp-violance-Female-genital-mutilation-%E2%80%9Cis-part-of-the-Sunna-of-the-Pr&p=144025
My point in drawing your attention to this site is to emphasise Amy’s and Sam Harris’ point that some beliefs result in appalling activity must be vigorously opposed. One form of opposition would be to post the above url link repeatedly on every feminist and Islamic web site. This is one such post
According to Ayaan Hirsi Ali in Infidel, clitoridectomy occurs 6,000 times a day world wide.
More information on this subject (print only) can be obtained from http://www.butterfliesandwheels.org/2010/circumcision-or-genital-mutilation/
Amy Clare,
I am time and again baffled by the arrogance with which atheists discuss religious belief, and I am deeply sorry to see that repeated here – in a feminist piece which I would assume would attempt to be a little less narrow-minded, a little bit wary of received doctrines etc.
Here are my concerns with the opinions expressed in the above piece:
1. Some of the quotes you mention are truly sickening, you are absolutely correct. I am not denying that religious books, perhaps even some elements of religion are certainly misogynistic, but I am also strongly of the opinion that this is because the religions developed and the holy books written are a product of patriarchal social structures, and as such are caught up in a cycle where they both both reflect and confirm these beliefs. Is this reason enough to shun the beliefs? Maybe, but I think not since valuable bits can still be gleaned from most religions – ideas which (in my opinion) are worth preserving.
2. But, you’ll argue, what about the fact that these books are seen as the ‘word of god’ by ‘the religious.’ Please. Stop seeing the religious as one homogeneous glob incapable of critique or thought. While there are many who would believe that God wrote/dictated/whatever the books an equal number don’t. Yet the latter don’t automatically choose to reject religious beliefs – simply because most religions also offer wisdom and other positive things. If one (perhaps a tad generously) looks at the overarching aim of religion being to be a sort of guide to help better oneself then can one really dispute that the major religions offer good counsel on this? To paraphrase crudely :Turn the other cheek (Bible), give to those less unfortunate than you (Quran), do well by others because you’ll reap what you so (in Hinduism).
3. Yes, belief does often spur one to action. But I am astonished by your implication that this action is necessarily of a negative (perhaps violent even?) nature. What about the millions of Muslims who give to charity primarily BECAUSE the religion urges them to (in Pakistan for instance, zakat forms a major form of social safety for the poor in the absence of reliable state safety nets). There are more examples pertaining to work by Hindu cultural organsiations in India and so on. Bottom line: Please stop equating religious action with extreme violent/terrorist actions.
4. This is a quibbling point – but if you’re looking for utter consistency, then perhaps you should not try to analyse humans or those things related to them . Please, leave us our humanity.
5. Take a few minutes to consider your belief in the complete superiority of science and rational thinking. The scientific world is utterly unexplored, while we do know a decent amount now, we still don’t know at all nearly enough at all to allow scientific thought to take precedence over any other way of thinking. As a rational being – one would expect you to be a little more aware of the potential of a multitude possibilities out there, of a proliferation of reasons for any given thing or phenomenon – creation-ary or otherwise. Such a deep belief (because yes that’s what it is. Science is not a completely reliable, foolproof way of knowing things. It’s just ONE way) in the infallibility of science is atrocious for a rational being. Please, be aware of the limitations in any way of knowing.
6. Lastly, please don’t dichotomise religion and reason. You do a disservice to yourself and others by trying to categorise ways of knowing, indeed ways of living, in such tightly-contained categories.
Loosen up.
AHR:
Thanks for your comments. Firstly, please don’t tell me to ‘loosen up’. That’s patronising and childish in the extreme. And you call ME arrogant. But anyway.
About your concerns regarding my piece: you are certainly not the first person to call an atheist ‘narrow minded’ or ‘arrogant’. This seems to be the stock response from believers whenever an atheist draws attention to anything negative about religion, or indeed merely says that there is no evidence for the existence of a god.
“The religions developed and the holy books written are a product of patriarchal social structures, and as such are caught up in a cycle where they both both reflect and confirm these beliefs. Is this reason enough to shun the beliefs?”
Yes. That and the fact that there’s no evidence for them, they harm women in real life, and so on.
“I think not since valuable bits can still be gleaned from most religions – ideas which (in my opinion) are worth preserving.”
Please see paragraph nine of my piece where I deal with the argument you’ve just stated (that holy books contain Nice Things that cancel out the terribly inconvenient misogyny).
“But, you’ll argue, what about the fact that these books are seen as the ‘word of god’ by ‘the religious.’ Please. Stop seeing the religious as one homogeneous glob incapable of critique or thought. While there are many who would believe that God wrote/dictated/whatever the books an equal number don’t.”
OK, so what are you saying? That half of all religious people don’t think their holy texts were even inspired by God? That half of all religious people don’t even bother with the holy texts? On what is their ‘knowledge’ of their god/s or prophet/s based, if not on this piece of ‘evidence’? How do they know their god’s wishes? How do they know what to do to get into heaven? To avoid hell? Why do Christians (for example) believe in Jesus and not in a divine flying teapot? Might it be something to do with the Bible?
“Yet the latter don’t automatically choose to reject religious beliefs – simply because most religions also offer wisdom and other positive things.”
From the books, surely? If religious people don’t believe that these Nice Things were communicated by their god, what do they believe exactly? That men wrote these things? (I agree, by the way, I think men did write these things.) What’s to stop religious people taking one of the works of Shakespeare as their moral guide then? There are countless works out there, by humans, which offer ‘wisdom and other positive things’. Why plump for a huge tome riddled with inconsistency, violence, racism, misogyny, homophobia and irrelevance?
“If one (perhaps a tad generously) looks at the overarching aim of religion being to be a sort of guide to help better oneself then can one really dispute that the major religions offer good counsel on this? To paraphrase crudely :Turn the other cheek (Bible), give to those less unfortunate than you (Quran), do well by others because you’ll reap what you so (in Hinduism).”
So? I can think of a hundred books off the top of my head that offer some kind of good advice or truisms about the world – why stick to holy texts, if self help is your only criterion? Furthermore if your only source is a holy text, then isn’t the self-help message rather confusing? Turn the other cheek (not always good advice, btw), and stone any woman who isn’t a virgin or married? Give to those less fortunate, and beat your wife if she gets uppity?
“Yes, belief does often spur one to action. But I am astonished by your implication that this action is necessarily of a negative (perhaps violent even?) nature.”
Look at the news stories I linked to. I don’t have to imply anything – those actions I was referring to (stoning, lashing, burying) *are* of a negative and violent nature. Those things really happened. I didn’t say that *every* belief (even the belief that a cup of tea would be nice right now) directly leads to a negative or violent action, and it is absurd for you to say that this is what I am suggesting. Negative, violent beliefs however will most likely lead to negative, violent behaviour. Religions foster such beliefs. That’s my point.
“What about the millions of Muslims who give to charity primarily BECAUSE the religion urges them to?”
Because giving to charity due to fear of hellfire is much better than giving to charity because you have empathy with other humans? I don’t see your point here.
“Bottom line: Please stop equating religious action with extreme violent/terrorist actions.”
Perhaps I will, when religious belief stops being a reason for violence and terrorism.
” if you’re looking for utter consistency, then perhaps you should not try to analyse humans or those things related to them . Please, leave us our humanity.”
I should not try to analyse humans? Who should, then? God? Imams, priests, vicars, rabbis? Next time a priest says in a sermon that homosexuality is a sin, should a member of the congregation point out to him (always a him, innit?) that he is attempting to analyse humans and things related to them? When a woman is raped, and then accused of adultery by her local imam, where is he leaving her humanity? In the bin?
“The scientific world is utterly unexplored, while we do know a decent amount now, we still don’t know at all nearly enough at all to allow scientific thought to take precedence over any other way of thinking.”
So when you step on an aeroplane, or undergo surgery, you prefer that scientific thought not be given precedence over ‘any other way of thinking’? Really?
“As a rational being – one would expect you to be a little more aware of the potential of a multitude possibilities out there, of a proliferation of reasons for any given thing or phenomenon – creation-ary or otherwise.”
Consider the fact that you are currently stuck to the floor and not floating around in the air – is this because of gravity, or are there a multitude of possibilities and a proliferation of reasons for this phenomenon?
“Such a deep belief (because yes that’s what it is. Science is not a completely reliable, foolproof way of knowing things. It’s just ONE way) in the infallibility of science is atrocious for a rational being. Please, be aware of the limitations in any way of knowing.”
So when every calculation, every observation, consistently shows that the Earth orbits the Sun, we should still doubt it because science is not completely reliable or foolproof? When evidence (that I mentioned in my piece) shows that girls leave school with grades as good as or better than boys’, should we ignore that because of the ‘limitations in any way of knowing’? Are you concerned that your electricity supply will cut out at any minute, or fry you to a cinder, because of the inherently unreliable nature of the scientists that discovered, harnessed, generated and are supplying it to you? Exactly which other ‘ways of knowing’ are equal or superior to evidence and reasoning?
I think you are confusing scientists (who are human, and who make mistakes sometimes) with the scientific method – an abstract concept meaning that we learn about the world through making observations, gathering evidence and reasoning. There is no other ‘way of knowing’. If this is ‘tightly contained’ then it needs to be – how happy would you be if the next car you bought had not been rigorously tested? If the engineer who built it put it together on the basis of what Jesus had told him when he came to him in a dream? And then told you to chill out, he ‘knows’ that it’ll never crash?
If believing things on the basis of evidence, observation and reasoning is ‘atrocious’ then I’m more than happy to be atrocious. And I will put religion and reason into different ‘categories’. They are the antithesis of each other.
Amy Clare,
Thanks for your response. It has certainly addressed many of the things which continue to concern me. But let me see if I can clarify them any further, so that we can take the reason vs religion in feminism debate a bit further maybe. So here goes:
I think it’s very important to try and define what is meant by ‘religious’ or ‘believer’ – and moreover to recognise the plurality that exists within this. I didn’t mean that ‘half’ of all believers understand that holy books are not the word of god, but to acknowledge that there are many people who will take bits of religion (I suppose the ‘nice’ bits) and believe in those, and not necessarily in everything espoused by religions in their entirety. Let me stress that all I am trying to underline here is that just because one may have faith/beleif/be religious does not mean one is utterly bereft of intelligence/ability to critique even that in which they believe (ie practicing Muslim, women and otherwise, who have called for changes in the Sharia law, in its interpretation etc). This IS an arrogant way of treating those who differ from your opinions. In leaving no space for faith or belief, yes your piece is narrow minded.
Good point about the scientific method, and it is certainly a (perhaps the most?) valuable way of knowing things. But at the same time I would assert that belief (which may or may not be equated with religion) is another valid way of (if not knowing) then experiencing the world. And as such it definitely deserves the respect which atheists seem to expect for themselves. I think your argument – which is important in the way it underscores how religious texts and religions can be misogynistic (perhaps to the very women who suffer DUE to religions), is alienating if it refuses to accord even a degree of respect to faith and belief.
Again I would say that focusing on the violence and strife caused in making your point is not constructive. It is not just religion which is responsible for this, but a complexity of intersecting issues (ie even in ‘Islamic terrorism’ for instance poverty, lack of employment opportunities, mixed with foreign policies and so on are seen as some reasons propelling youngsters into fundamentalism. Reducing it to ‘Islam, and religions by nature cause havoc’ is simplistic). Religion is hardly ever the sole reason for violence.
“And I will put religion and reason into different ‘categories’. They are the antithesis of each other.”
You sound puerile and spoiled here, but go ahead. Since you wrote a piece on it, I expect you are genuinely interested in religion vs reason, so I would just suggest that it may be worthwhile to stop looking at religion solely through a Marxist perspective, and to try and see how ‘religion’ is understood and practiced in different ways. Again, what has been my main point throughout here, is that ‘religion’ is not ONE monolithic structure oppressive to women and others. Even one religion is practiced in different ways, in different places. Absolutes are doing nothing to help your argument.
Anyway, thank you for your thought provoking piece.
Also, let me point out that science too is based on faith. For disciplines which have a particular language and vocabulary of their own which is inaccessible to people outside that group, believing in the knowledge of that discipline is in itself an act of faith.
Also, somewhat off-point but as far as atheism goes that seems to fit partly in the above. In saying so confidently that god does not exist it is essentially saying that all that can be known is known and if god existed we would know. It discounts the fact that there is SO much we don’t know, and perhaps we just haven’t reached that point where we can know if god’s existence (if in fact a/many gods do exist). This does not preclude the possibility of scientific theories of theory of evolution, however it also doesn’t discredit the idea that there might be a god behind science as well.
In this respect, agnosticism seems a much more scientific position to adopt than atheism.
Amy Clare — good post, but I don’t think you’re doing justice to the “third argument” that the book is not necessary to practice the religion.Fundamentalists, who believe their holy book must be followed absolutely, tend to be very scary people — but most believers are not fundamentalists. They selectively ignore parts (often very large parts) of the holy text, in favour of a set of traditions (which may have very little to do with the holy text itself). Tradition may be more or less fixed (as with the Jewish Talmud or Anglican Book of Common Prayer), but in many respects it is subject to change. 250 years ago, the Anglican Church was happy to condone slavery (and cite Bible verses to justify it), but not now.So the ethics of a tradition change over time — but the rituals change much more slowly, and this can be comforting. The ritual could be saying the Lord’s Prayer, fasting during Ramadan, or whatever. Regardless, the feelings of continuity with the past and future (presumably long before and after one’s own lifetime), and community with fellow worshippers, are very important.So far, this is basically harmless. I am an atheist but I know Jews, Christians, and Muslims who would agree with the above. The God they believe in is not the same as the author of their holy book, and they don’t think the book gives them any special moral authority. The problem is that many believers want to have it both ways. They don’t follow their holy book to the letter (which anyway may be impractical, even for the most rigid fundamentalists), but they do like feeling certain that the Big Man In The Sky approves of whatever they want. For example: Catholicism has discarded many an inconvenient belief over the centuries, but claims that whatever the Pope says about contraception, today, has the authority of God and you’ll go to hell for ignoring it. It is of course contradictory, but that doesn’t stop people from believing it or getting angry when you point out that they’re being illogical.
One other thing — you argued above that saying the Lord’s Prayer is not harmless, in that it encourages a sexist way of thinking (even if only subconsciously). Strictly speaking this is true, but its real effect may be minimal. As a secular example, consider the British monarchy. Yes, in principle it sends out a bad and anti-democratic message, but most British people do not seriously believe that political power should be inherited. (I speak as a British citizen; all else being equal I would like to see the monarchy abolished but I don’t consider it a major priority.)
PS Apologies for the paragraph-formatting error above!
AHR:
Puerile and spoiled as well as atrocious. Quite a personality I have, isn’t it? I rather like it.
“I didn’t mean that ‘half’ of all believers understand that holy books are not the word of god, but to acknowledge that there are many people who will take bits of religion (I suppose the ‘nice’ bits) and believe in those, and not necessarily in everything espoused by religions in their entirety.”
Think you’ll find my piece acknowledges this too, in paragraph nine – I just see this phenomenon a little differently to you.
“Let me stress that all I am trying to underline here is that just because one may have faith/beleif/be religious does not mean one is utterly bereft of intelligence/ability to critique even that in which they believe (ie practicing Muslim, women and otherwise, who have called for changes in the Sharia law, in its interpretation etc).”
At no point have I said that religious people are ‘bereft of intelligence’! In fact if I believed that, there would be no point in my writing this piece at all, because it would be a lost cause. In fact my piece is an appeal to people’s intelligence, specifically feminists, inviting them to see that it is absurd to ignore and apologise for misogyny within religion, when they would loudly expose and criticise it from any other source. It’s an appeal for a critical discussion of religion within feminism, not a character assassination of all religious people.
In fact many religious people employ all manner of clever tactics to contort their intellects into a shape which accepts contradictory thoughts and messages. Such as, the idea that there is a male supreme being, and the idea that females and males are equal. This takes intelligence. I’m not saying that religious feminists aren’t intelligent. I’m saying they’re wrong.
“This IS an arrogant way of treating those who differ from your opinions. In leaving no space for faith or belief, yes your piece is narrow minded.”
My piece is critiquing faith and belief, so there should be no surprise that I leave ‘no space’ for these things – tell me, is critique of faith necessarily narrow-minded? Is disagreeing with religious people necessarily arrogant? Next time I read a piece in a newspaper by a religious person championing their god, should I write in and point out that they’re narrow-minded for leaving no space for atheism?
“But at the same time I would assert that belief (which may or may not be equated with religion) is another valid way of (if not knowing) then experiencing the world. And as such it definitely deserves the respect which atheists seem to expect for themselves.”
You’re comparing belief (which is abstract) with atheists (who are people). People deserve respect, and they deserve the right to hold and express their beliefs. The beliefs themselves, however, do not automatically deserve respect.
“I think your argument – which is important in the way it underscores how religious texts and religions can be misogynistic (perhaps to the very women who suffer DUE to religions), is alienating if it refuses to accord even a degree of respect to faith and belief.”
Like I said above, unlike human beings, concepts such as ‘faith’ and ‘belief’ per se do not deserve respect. Why should I accord any respect to religious faith in a piece which critiques religious faith? Is your objection to the fact that I am daring to criticise religious faith at all?
“Again I would say that focusing on the violence and strife caused in making your point is not constructive.”
On the contrary, I think the violence and strife caused is central to my point. It’s very important to expose the violence against women inspired by religious belief. Making sure people know about this is perhaps the most important part of the piece. I’m sure the girl who was buried alive for talking to boys wanted someone to do something about it. Exposing what happened is the first step. Casting a critical eye over the beliefs that led to her fate is the next one.
“It is not just religion which is responsible for this, but a complexity of intersecting issues (ie even in ‘Islamic terrorism’ for instance poverty, lack of employment opportunities, mixed with foreign policies and so on are seen as some reasons propelling youngsters into fundamentalism. Reducing it to ‘Islam, and religions by nature cause havoc’ is simplistic). Religion is hardly ever the sole reason for violence.”
And yet, the justification for stoning a woman to death for breaking strict sexual rules is right there in the holy texts, and despite what you claim, these holy texts do mean something to people. Millions, if not billions, believe what they say at least in part.
Can you explain to me how poverty, lack of employment opportunities and foreign policies come to cause a 13 year old girl to be stoned to death for ‘adultery’? The people committing this violence are giving us the reasons for it – from their own mouths, they say that these girls, these women are a disgrace, a dishonour to their god, their religion. They don’t say “Well I’m poor, so I thought I’d murder my sister.” Would this violence happen without a belief in the inferiority of women, without a belief that women must be modest, without a belief that female sexual behaviour is evil and must be strictly controlled? And would these misogynist beliefs be as prevalent without that most supreme of all motivators, god’s rubber stamp of approval?
“Since you wrote a piece on it, I expect you are genuinely interested in religion vs reason, so I would just suggest that it may be worthwhile to stop looking at religion solely through a Marxist perspective, and to try and see how ‘religion’ is understood and practiced in different ways.”
So because I invoked a Karl Marx quote in one paragraph, this means I am a Marxist? Would it surprise you to know that actually, I’m not looking at religion from a Marxist perspective, but from my own perspective?
As for your patronising suggestion that I ‘try and see’ how religion (why are you putting that word in scare quotes, I wonder) is understood and practised in different ways – in the later part of my piece I get right down to the most basic tenet of religion, a belief in a god or gods, and critique this. Are you seriously going to tell me that the practice of a religion doesn’t necessarily include a belief in god? That there are different ‘understandings’ of religion which preclude a belief in a supernatural creator? If so, then please explain what these are. If not, then I fail to see what I can possibly ‘try and see’.
“Again, what has been my main point throughout here, is that ‘religion’ is not ONE monolithic structure oppressive to women and others. Even one religion is practiced in different ways, in different places. Absolutes are doing nothing to help your argument.”
Nothing is more ‘absolute’ than the insistence that there is a god when, according to all the available evidence, there isn’t. Nothing is more ‘monolithic’ than children being lined up and made to recite the Lord’s Prayer every day before school starts. Nothing is less helpful to argument or women’s rights or anything else than someone saying “This is true because I believe it is true.”
Show me one religion commonly practised today where its proponets don’t either a) believe misogynist crap because a god or gods said so, or b) ignore large parts of their relevant holy text/s and/or teachings of religious leaders, with all the implications regarding hypocrisy that this carries.
“Anyway, thank you for your thought provoking piece.”
You’re very welcome.
AHR,
You say “[t]he scientific world is utterly unexplored”. What the heck does that mean? You go on (if I understand you correctly) to equate the truth of science with that of “creation-ary” phenonmena. Are you suggesting that the big bang theory is no more reliable a model of cosmology than any of the many thousand creation myths that exist? If so, you’re wrong. So stop it! It’s very naughty!
You then talk about “other ways of knowing”. Can you be more specific? What are these ways, what do they look like, what do they tell us about the universe, and can I have some please, because they sound interesting? (I notice you’ve substituted “knowing” with “experiencing” in the course of the discussion, so there’s hope yet. I suspect your whole justification for even bringing up the “other ways of knowing” thing is just a god-of-the-gaps argument with postmodern go-faster stripes, but I’d be delighted if you proved me wrong!)
You concede that “there are many people who will take bits of religion (I suppose the ‘nice’ bits) and believe in those, and not necessarily in everything espoused by religions in their entirety”. This form of religious adherence is ridiculous. The result is that there are as many Christianities as there are Christians (for example), since every person who identifies as such can pick and choose which verses they like, and which they don’t.
There are enough problems with this way of thinking to fill a whole book! The first that comes to my mind is this: how does a religious person choose which verses are “nice” and which aren’t? I suspect it’s a function of what someone already believes, independently of religion. And when you accuse atheists of arrogance (in refusing to believe what has not been proved: imagine that!), it is deliciously ironic that you simultaneously fail to see the arrogance in formulating your own, personal interpretation of holy texts, as is the wont of the trendy progressive religious, to the exclusion of all other interpretations!
The third problem is that, given the inconsistencies in any holy book (or any other self-help manual, as you appear to view them), the degree of overlap between the beliefs of two people of (ostensibly) the same religion may be so small (or in fact non-existent) that they cannot reliably consider themselves co-religionists, if being so entails some degree of commonality of thought or belief, in which case the identification as being co-adherents to one particular religion is redundant. You call this “plurality”. I call it liberal interpretation of often very clear edicts which require no such interpretation and, in fact, whose liberal interpretation warrants eternal hellfire.
You are keen to defend religion. I can only imagine that that’s because you identify yourself as religious, and as such take any (even perfectly reasonable) criticism of religion as a personal insult. Ho hom, such is the way of arguing with the religious. Believe me, your exasperation at arguing with “arrogant atheists” is mirrored by mine at arguing with the religious.
For example, you go on: “Let me stress that all I am trying to underline here is that just because one may have faith/beleif/be religious does not mean one is utterly bereft of intelligence/ability to critique even that in which they believe.”
Phew, that’s good, I’m glad we all agree on that one. Shall we move on? Nobody’s calling you stupid, since you’re clearly not. The argument is this: religious faith entails belief without evidence, and belief without evidence is irrational. That’s all. Why should we, as you insist, “accord [it] even a degree of respect”? What is respectable about the factually incorrect?
And since you’re so fond of insulting people for no reason and then expecting them to take your “concerns”, “advice” and “suggestions” at face value (like calling Amy Clare arrogant, then telling her to “loosen up”!), here’s some advice for you: please stop it, it’s very annoying.
AHR,
“[L]et me point out that science too is based on faith. For disciplines which have a particular language and vocabulary of their own which is inaccessible to people outside that group, believing in the knowledge of that discipline is in itself an act of faith.”
Baaah! *Head oozes pus then pops* Where to start with this one? First, it’s a bit disappointing that your best argument against science is a tu quoque. Second, your point that science requires trust on the part of outsiders is interesting, but there ain’t no faith involved, since there’s lots of evidence that planes stay in the air and that microwave ovens heat stuff up. There’s no evidence that the truth claims of religion are true. Sorry, but no cigar. Third, anyone can become a scientist (since even a child looking at critters in a rock pool is doing real, fascinating science!). This is because the source of data for scientific claims is the natural world, while that of religion is old books.
“In this respect, agnosticism seems a much more scientific position to adopt than atheism.”
Are you agnostic, then?
AHR:
“Also, let me point out that science too is based on faith. For disciplines which have a particular language and vocabulary of their own which is inaccessible to people outside that group, believing in the knowledge of that discipline is in itself an act of faith.”
Sorry, what? Are you serious? I feel like swearing, but then, I won’t, because I’m a nice person (oh no hang on – I’m atrocious! Excellent…).
When I turn on my PC in the morning, I believe it’ll work, even though I don’t know how it works. But here’s the thing – if I wanted to find out how it works, there are many resources out there that would explain it to me. I could go on a computing course, take an electronics class… the knowledge is out there. I don’t have to take it on ‘faith’. Claims in the existence of god, however, do have to be taken on faith. Because there is no evidence.
“In saying so confidently that god does not exist it is essentially saying that all that can be known is known and if god existed we would know. It discounts the fact that there is SO much we don’t know, and perhaps we just haven’t reached that point where we can know if god’s existence (if in fact a/many gods do exist).”
You’re misrepresenting atheism. An atheist decides that they do not believe in god, based on the fact that there is no evidence for the existence of a god/gods. No atheist has ever claimed (to the best of my knowledge) that ‘all that can be known is known’. Rather they decide to base their beliefs on evidence and reasoning. If the evidence changes, the beliefs change. This is in stark contrast to religious beliefs, which stay static despite the state of the evidence. If evidence came to light which strongly supported the existence of a god then all atheists – at least those who are genuinely sceptical – would change their minds.
Faced as we are with a complete lack of evidence for a god/gods, and indeed mounting evidence to the contrary, the only position consistent with the world as we know it today is atheism, not agnosticism. Agnosticism assumes that the evidence is inconclusive – that the jury is out. Are you agnostic about the presence of a divine celestial teapot? about the presence of elves and fairies at the bottom of your garden? About the existence of Santa Claus? The state of the evidence for all of these things is exactly the same as it is for a god/gods.
“This does not preclude the possibility of scientific theories of theory of evolution, however it also doesn’t discredit the idea that there might be a god behind science as well.
In this respect, agnosticism seems a much more scientific position to adopt than atheism.”
Sorry, but rubbish. Firstly, evolution is a proven theory. Secondly, ‘a god behind science’? Ever heard of Occam’s Razor? Thirdly, it is not scientific to continue to doubt when all the evidence is pointing to one particular conclusion.
“This is in stark contrast to religious beliefs, which stay static despite the state of the evidence.”
Amazing. Clearly no point in continuing this farcical ‘debate’.
Talisker:
Thanks for your comments. I don’t agree that the things you cite in the first part of your first comment are necessarily harmless – I tend to agree with Sam Harris that the presence of religious moderates goes some way toward enabling fundamentalism and religious orthodoxy. Take any commonly practised religion and its holy text – if the book in question is irrelevant to the religious practise, then why does it even exist any more, why is it generally treated with such reverence, why is it quoted from at all in religious services? Why not write a whole new holy book with consistent moral teachings? I suspect because it’s the only thing even remotely resembling ‘evidence’ that exists to support a belief in that particular god or prophet…
I agree that it’s illogical and contradictory for people to cherry-pick those beliefs that are most convenient for them, and you won’t get any argument from me that pointing this out causes anger!
I do think that reciting the Lord’s Prayer is harmful actually, and I think singing ‘God Save The Queen’ is too (as we were made to do at my school)! It’s only because it’s so accepted in our society that kids do this, that it’s easy to say ‘oh it must be harmless’. If it’s so inconsequential, why does the religious lobby fight so hard for ‘daily worship’ to be retained? If a child is getting plenty of good messages at home, for example that it’s okay to question, it’s okay to not believe in god, that males and females are equal, then perhaps the effect is less than if they’re not, but it’s still damaging in my opinion. At the very least, it’s inappropriate – those kids don’t know what they’re saying, and they’re not old enough to decide whether they believe in a ‘father’ that ‘art in heaven’.
hi, this is my first visit to this (pretty impressive) blog, thanks to a friend on facebook who liked this post.
actually, that is very far from being the case. this is not supported by an analysis of the language used in the original hebrew, nor is it how it is understood by those of us who adhere to the traditional interpretation of the text. i moderate on this discussion boards, where this verse was brought up for some quite intense discussion:
http://www.interfaith.org/forum/is-it-kool-to-rape-3592.html
assuming, however, that you are not inclined to read the whole thing, i could summarise the main argument in connection with this verse thus:
what the original hebrew says in verse 28 is “WeThuPhShaH WeShaKhaW ‘IMaH” – “and takes (not “seizes”) and lies down with her”. clearly, we’re talking about sex taking place here, but it isn’t explicitly rape. that’s part of the point. if you look earlier up in verse 25, which is a similar case at first glance, you see the additional phrase “WeHeHiZiQ-BaH HaIYSh” – literally “and the man overpowers her”, which is far more obviously a rape. this sense of “overpowering” is absent in verses 28-29, so you’re actually talking about two different situations. what the commentators suggest here is that we’re talking about a woman who is “not engaged” (and therefore available) and we’re also talking about their being discovered, which means it’s in the city and not in the field (because the assumption is that if something takes place in the city and the girl was *unwilling*, she would have cried out and been overheard (see verse 24) and rescued, which wouldn’t be possible in the countryside – see verses 25-6, where the man is punished with the same penalty as murder, incidentally, while the girl is considered innocent. so what we are talking about here is sex taking place (which is one of the ways in which a marriage can be formalised, albeit not preferable) but it being unclear whether they are married or not. what this is basically trying to prevent is the “love rat” (as they are called in the tabloids) having his way of the girl and then her being unable to get a husband subsequently because everyone knows about it and she’s not a virgin without having been properly married. normally, you see, a man can divorce his wife as well as the other way round, but in this case, because he has acted dishonourably in the first instance (by not having a proper wedding) he is punished by not being able to initiate a divorce. however, this does not stop her agreeing to the marriage (thereby retroactively legitimising her loss of virginity) and then subsequently divorcing him (even without seeing him ever again) thus becoming entitled to alimony (even in the bronze age, people!) and the status of divorcée, which makes her available to marry someone else even though she’s not a virgin.
now, you could try and argue that i am *re*-interpreting, but most of these discussions are nearly 2,000 years old now – and that’s just when we know they were written down. what puzzles me slightly is your assertion that “They have not got their sense of equality from the book itself;” – actually, that’s precisely what’s going on here. interpretation of the Torah is a systemic, systematic discipline which cannot privilege one commandment over another – here, for example, the operative Torah principle is probably that of deuteronomy 16: “justice, justice – that is what you must pursue”, which repetition implies justice for *everyone*, not just one side of the debate. i can’t speak for other holy books, but Torah cannot be interpreted intelligibly in the piecemeal way you suggest.
some religion, but certainly not all religion – you do your argument a disservice by lumping us all together.
as i know plenty of religious feminists, i suggest you try talking to some of them. what i personally do not understand is how anyone can be religious and a feminist without struggle, doubt and extensive critical faculties – but then i don’t understand how anyone can be decently religious at all without that.
what you’re ignoring is the *discipline* of interpretation; sure, we have our misogynists, but they never have it all their own way. what you perhaps fail to appreciate is that textual interpretation is a *methodology* and, in judaism (and, to some extent, islam), violent disagreement in the process of reconciling apparent contradiction is the basis of critical approaches from within the tradition. for us, the “inconsistency” you think you’re seeing is simply the result of not understanding the differences in context. if one verse refers to a situation of rape and another to a situation of consensual sex, how are different responses inconsistent? they describe different cases! what needs to be consistent is the *approach* and the unifying thought behind the interpretative methodology. if, on the other hand, in a particular case you feel that the *prevailing view* (in Torah law, the majority view) is mistaken, minority opinion MUST, nonetheless, be preserved and protected in the event of it eventually becoming majoritarian. as our tradition says, “both these [positions] and those [contrary positions] are the words of the Living G!D”.
they can dispute it according to mutually agreed method of textual interpretation; this is precisely what the Talmud is.
other than these objections to your essentialising of religious texts, i think this is a thought-provoking and highly principled piece, i’d just appreciate it if you generalise rather less than you do.
b’shalom
bananabrain
AHR:
“Amazing. Clearly no point in continuing this farcical ‘debate’.”
Glad I can make you laugh! I find what you’re saying hilarious too.
If you doubt what I say about the static nature of religious beliefs in the face of evidence, why not go up to a religious person and ask them what it would take for them to change their mind about the existence of their god? Ask them what it would take for them to change their mind about the existence of a soul, an afterlife, heaven, hell, reincarnation, angels, jinns….
“Amazing. Clearly no point in continuing this farcical ‘debate’.”
Ah well, your loss. It was a ‘pleasure’ debating with you!
I do agree that religious moderates can do harm by enabling and encouraging the fundamentalists. I’m just trying to explain why people can be attracted to religion without necessarily being hypocrites or rigid fundamentalists.
In the specific case of the Lord’s Prayer, the English language doesn’t have a pronoun for ‘abstract person of unspecified gender’, so we have the choice of ‘he’ or ‘she’. Changing it to ‘our mother in Heaven’ or discarding the prayer altogether would be a major break with tradition — and as I say, a powerful attraction of long-established religions is the feeling of continuity with the past. So a moderate Anglican would adopt the (admittedly messy) compromise of still saying the Lord’s Prayer, but understanding that it was written in a different and much more sexist time, and thinking of God as a basically abstract and sexless being.
I agree that children will not understand these subtleties, and lining them up to say the Lord’s Prayer is problematic, but in practical terms we just have to accept that parents will take their children along to church. (Compulsory prayer in schools is a totally different matter, I’m totally against that.) Children’s wider environment does matter, and not just within the family — my aunt is a retired school headteacher, and I’m quite sure that for her pupils, seeing her in a position of authority was a powerful counterbalance to the sexism in the Lord’s Prayer.
Also, you can have religious traditions which, unlike the Lord’s Prayer, are totally harmless in themselves. Plenty of Jews and Muslims will agree there is no rational justification for not eating pork, but they choose not to anyway, because they like following the tradition. I don’t see any problem with this.
As for why they don’t discard the holy book and write a new one — for moderate believers, the value of the book lies in ‘the good bits’, but perhaps more importantly in the fact that it is *their* traditional book. It doesn’t really matter if the ‘good bits’ are objectively better than any alternative. For a Christian, the Sermon on the Mount has a resonance that wouldn’t be matched by any modern replacement (even if they don’t literally agree with every word of it), and a religion which explicitly rejected the Bible would no longer be Christianity.
Again, I think the British state is a good analogy. In the abstract, it would be better to replace the monarchy, the anthem, the House of Lords, and other archaic practices with something more rational — but this would remove a large part of Britain’s self-image, what distinguishes it from other nations, and so would meet a lot of resistance. Traditions such as the monarchy are bad in a largely symbolic way, which is not to be overlooked, but it’s a different order of ‘badness’ from a real absolute monarchy such as Saudi Arabia, or an atheist but repressive state such as China.
Although it is from last year, I think you may find this book review useful. The author comes from a Muslim perspective and reviews her works. The link is here … it is good to hear other opinions and ideas.
http://loga-abdullah.blogspot.com/2008/11/defending-our-diin-ayaan-hirsi-ali.html
Hope you find it interesting.
bananabrain’s comment was held in moderation for awhile (as new commenters’ posts sometimes are) – so it wasn’t ignored; it wasn’t here to be seen until just now. Just thought I’d clear that up.
Talisker:
I agree that there are many things that are attractive about religions, or may seem so – but I think it is still hypocritical for a person to lend their support to a religion while rejecting many of its tenets. Religious moderates may not think of this as hypocrisy, or even think about the issue at all, but that’s what it is.
Do Anglicans, even moderates, really think of God as a sexless being? I was under the impression that most moderate religious people still think of God as male. People could use the singular ‘they’ and refer to a ‘parent’ if they were really that bothered. And then there’s Jesus – no-one could lead themselves to believe he was genderless. Judaism has Moses, Islam has Mohammed – all these prophets are male. How does a person get around that one?
I don’t think that a female head teacher is in any way a counterbalance to a male supreme being, a male prophet, not one bit – these characters are divine, they supposedly made the universe, can do miracles, have the power of sending you to heaven or hell! In terms of power, the buck stops with God – it’s like having a male Prime Minister for ever with no chance of an election. Lowly Earthly human teachers are small fry by comparison; intermediate power can be female, but supreme ultimate power is male.
I know all too well that many people like to follow tradition (can’t see why, myself – I don’t have any need to feel connected to the past, but maybe that’s just me!) but I think this shouldn’t be exempt from criticism. If one accepts and follows traditions without question purely on the basis that they are traditions, this leaves the door wide open for all kinds of nasty things. In general, it silences and disables those who disagree with the traditions and would like to do things differently. It’s those ‘harmless’ traditions which can make people feel stifled and like there’s only one right way to do things. At the very least, they discourage creativity, critical thinking and independence.
One can usually assess how harmless a tradition is by examining what the penalties are, if any, of not following it. In your example, I would imagine that a Jewish/Muslim pork-eater would face many negative reactions from their community, plus residual religious guilt, and that this is probably the real reason why they ‘like following the tradition’.
To what extent, for a religious person, is their holy book really their holy book, if they disregard most of its teachings (or haven’t even read it all the way through)? Are you suggesting that the holy book is just a talisman? That this is purely a matter of social identity? That carrying a Bible for a Christian is merely like wearing an Arsenal shirt for a supporter of that team? I don’t necessarily disagree – I think social identity is a big part of it – but this is problematic, surely? To align oneself with a movement, an organisation, that one disagrees with at least in part, knowing that in doing so you are giving it power – numbers at least, and in many cases, money too?
Why would the Sermon on the Mount resonate, if a person doesn’t agree with all of it? Isn’t that just a bit strange? Why not judge a speech or piece of writing on what it says, rather than whether it belongs to your tribe? And if rejecting the Bible would make Christianity not be Christianity any more (no argument from me there), then what does that say about those Christians who reject large parts of the Bible? Even those Christians who only agree with 20% of the Bible would still call themselves 100% Christian, no? What is this, other than hypocrisy? My point is precisely that many Christians in fact *do* reject large parts of the Bible, whether they realise it or not. Every woman who’s ever worn trousers, for a start…
To be honest your analogy with the British state doesn’t quite work on me, because I would love to get rid of the Lords, the monarchy, the anthem… I think in the long run it’d improve Britain no end. I’m British and I feel absolutely no affinity whatsoever with this Britain of royals and aristocrats and pomp and ceremony – I’d change it tomorrow. (And religion is inextricably linked to the monarchy – the Queen is supposed to be ‘defender of the faith’ remember!) Yes a move to get rid of the monarchy would meet some resistance, but is that a valid reason for keeping it? I don’t think so. I don’t have any sympathy for ‘tradition’, whether religious or secular – I don’t think tradition is a good enough reason to do anything; on the contrary, loyalty to tradition can impede vital change. Yes our traditions may be preferable to those in other, more repressive societies, but this doesn’t mean many don’t still favour the privileged and cause harm to some members of society.
I know what you’re saying with your comments (I think!) – that there are reasons why people are moderately religious and those reasons have nothing to do with wanting to oppress people. I agree with you – but I still think those reasons, whatever they may be, need to be critically examined. Firstly because when the Pope (for example) says that he has a billion followers so the world’s governments had better listen to him, he has every Catholic, including hundreds of millions of ‘moderates’, to thank for that. And secondly because an unquestioning adherence to tradition is something that contributes, however unintended it may be by some, to prejudice and oppression in our society. (i.e. Giving people the message that it’s okay to follow tradition blindly is just another way of telling them that believing things without evidence is okay. Cue all kinds of ‘traditions’ that screw over women, gay people, people of colour, and so on.)
bananabrain:
Thanks for your comments. You’ve picked on one particular verse that I highlighted, and analysed it in great depth, and I’m impressed by the effort that’s clearly taken, and I don’t know Hebrew so am unable to argue with you about the translation, but I’m inclined to think, what about the others? What about the one regarding the stoning to death of a woman who isn’t a virgin on her wedding night? What about all those verses I linked to at the SAB? Were they all mistranslated?
Regarding the Deuteronomy verse (22:29), it says that ‘she shall be his wife, because he hath humbled her’ – humbled? That’s rather chilling, no? Is that a mistranslation too? Regardless of whether rape occurred or it was ‘just sex’, isn’t it a bit sexist to generally suggest that it’s okay to buy a woman in this way? (Following your interpretation, it’s a bit like having to pay for something you broke in a shop – fair enough if it’s a vase, but a person? Why does having sex make you a broken person?) If God is a supremely knowledgeable being, with ultimate powers, and is perfectly good and moral, why couldn’t he send a clear message – even in the bronze age – that women are people, not property? What stopped him from telling these citizens in no uncertain terms that it’s okay for women to have sex, they don’t have to be virgins until they’re married, and it’s not right to buy and sell them?
I find it quite convenient that you’re explaining away misogyny as mistranslation, and contradictions as just not knowing the ‘right’ context of the verses in question. You seem to be taking it as your a priori assumption that there can’t possibly be any real inconsistency in the texts, there can’t possibly be any real misogyny. Why not? Why can’t there be? Why is your ‘methodology’ necessarily going to result in a clear, unequivocal message? On what do you base your faith in it? How do you know that the eventual interpretation is right, in any case? What do you check it against?
Then you say that two contradictory positions can both be the word of the ‘living god’? How is that even possible – how can a creator of the universe not make his mind up? Not be 100% clear about his message? Do you not find it slightly odd that all this interpretation is necessary? Why doesn’t God reiterate his message and clear things up? Hasn’t he got the power to do this?
When I talk about a sense of equality, I am talking about equality between men and women – e.g. what is it that leads you to know that stoning a woman to death for not being a virgin is wrong? Would you only know that it’s wrong if you’d read all the scriptures? Or would you know that it’s wrong based on your own empathy and reasoning? I would argue the latter, seeing as I know it’s wrong, and I haven’t read all the scriptures or engaged in textual interpretation. This is what I’m talking about. A religious person reads such a horrendous verse, thinks ‘That can’t be right’ and proceeds to delve more deeply into the scriptures to find some way of justifying it. I doubt that a person starts reading scriptures and then concludes ‘Well whaddaya know? Stoning women is immoral!’
I have in fact read many articles and blog posts from religious feminists (in doing the research for this piece) and their arguments without exception have utterly failed to convince me or even make much sense if truth be told. I don’t suppose they care much about that, but I have made the effort to understand, honestly.
In what way do I ‘generalise’? Sure, not all religious people follow their religion in exactly the same way, but they do believe in a god/gods, and their holy texts do mean something to them. These are the two aspects of religion that I critique in my piece, and they appear to me to be pretty universal among the faithful. The rest is a critique of the arguments used by religious feminists to defend the misogyny in their holy texts, and examples of religiously-inspired misogyny. What is it that I’m generalising about? What is it exactly that you object to?
I stand by what I said about it being seen as bad form to criticise religion in our society – it is. This site will give you ample examples of this – Harry Taylor’s story springs to mind. Of course I am talking about those religions commonly practised, rather than say, Wicca, but you will still find that the criticism of religious beliefs – and by these I mean the belief in a god/gods, afterlife, soul, those supernatural elements which are common to all religions – is met with much more disapproval and derision and silencing than criticism of, for example, political views, in UK society at least. Why should this be so? What’s wrong with saying there’s no evidence for a god/gods, and saying it loudly? That’s my point – I’m not saying every religion is equal in UK society, but it’s still more socially acceptable to express a religious belief, or tolerate religious beliefs, than it is to outwardly criticise them.
Amy — thank you, I am enjoying this discussion.
I suppose this is my point: The religion is not equivalent to the holy book. It can still be a religion while rejecting, choosing to ignore, or explaining away significant parts of the holy book. In fact most of them do this.
Of course this is a contradiction if you believe the book must be obeyed, word for word. The approach of some believers (particularly self-proclaimed fundamentalists) is to pretend the contradiction doesn’t exist and get upset when someone points it out. But the other way of squaring this circle is believing human beings must use their judgment, and decide which parts of the book are relevant. The exact justification varies — assuming certain parts of the book are not meant for this day and age, or were written down by people biased by the prejudices of their time, or (as with bananabrain above) emphasising the difficulty of interpretation.
Regardless, I don’t see it as hypocrisy to say, “My religion consists of traditions (which may sometimes change), plus selected parts of this book (which need not be interpreted literally).” The big problem is if you say this, and also believe that God has instructed you in the one and only right way to behave (as in the case of the Catholic Church).
In a poetic sense, maybe. But if you ask them whether God has the biological attributes of maleness (beard, testicles, Y chromosome) I think you’d get a pretty strange look. If pushed, they’d probably admit that assigning God a male gender is basically arbitrary, and is only traditional because their religion started off in a highly patriarchical society. The same goes for the fact that all those prophets from long ago were male; the original religion reflected its society, but modern believers are not obliged to recreate the social order of their predecessors.
Don’t get me wrong, I still think it’s a bad thing that most religions have this built-in patriarchical bias; and such bias should be vigorously questioned.
Not necessarily. I’ve known religious families where some members are more observant than others, with regard to eating pork or attending services or whatever. The less-observant don’t always get a hard time, maybe some mild joking as if (to use your example) they’d decided to support Chelsea instead of Arsenal. Of course this doesn’t apply to the real hardliners, who believe the slightest deviation from the rules might condemn you to hell, but a great many believers simply don’t think like that.
Not exactly. If people had been wearing Arsenal shirts for thousands of years, and an elaborate structure of ritual had built up around Arsenal, and said rituals were a key part of the most significant moments in one’s life (births, marriages and funerals, not just FA Cup finals), and great art and literature had been inspired by Arsenal, and there were Arsenal clergy to whom one spoke on a weekly basis (some fanatics or idiots, but many who were genuinely helpful and decent people), and many had been tortured and killed for being Arsenal supporters, and Arsenal supporters had in turn killed others (which modern followers may find wrong and shameful, yet not sufficient reason to give up all ties to Arsenal), then it would be a better analogy.
It’s possible to feel affinity for the general sense of a document, even if you don’t agree with all the details. As a secular example, I’m well aware that the US Declaration of Independence was written by people who kept slaves, despoiled Native American lands, and had many ignoble motives for rebelling against Britain; and I don’t agree with every word in the text. But I still find it a moving articulation of some important principles (and I’m not even American).
Really? You’ve never put up a Christmas tree, or attended a wedding, or watched a sporting event? All these things take the form they do because of tradition, and shared rituals can be valuable in themselves.
Take, for example, the Scottish kilt. Yes, most of the kilt and tartan business was concocted in the 19th century, and it looks very little like what medieval Highlanders wore, and objectively speaking it’s just an expensive and slightly impractical garment, and Scotland only exists in the first place because of ancient wars and dynastic politics, and in general we as a species should be trying to move beyond petty nationalism. None of this will stop me from wearing one on Burns Night or Hogmanay, and enjoying the sense of being part of a nation that has done some good things and is bigger and more enduring than I am.
We all feel some sort of attachment to traditions. They satisfy deeply-held emotional needs, and at important occasions or times of crisis they can help bind us together. Yes, they should be fearlessly questioned, in case they are doing harm. (Arguably, the whole romanticised kilts-and-tartan mindset has had some negative effects on Scotland.) But it doesn’t make you bad, wrong or foolish to decide that some traditions are worth keeping, even if they don’t entirely make sense and aren’t completely harmless.
I repeat that I’m an atheist, but I can understand why some people want to hold onto their religious traditions, even if they don’t believe that they were carved in stone by a deity.
Addition to my lengthy comment above:
In a theological sense you’re correct, but I was talking about children, not theologians. I’m pretty sure that a living, breathing human being has an emotional reality to them which is different and in some ways stronger than a bunch of stories, even ones the adults tell them are true stories. I still agree that negative messages in the stories, even subtle ones, can be harmful; but it is possible for them to be balanced out by other things.
One more thing (and apologies if I’m getting too verbose)… I suppose in the specific case of Christianity, God is male because God impregnated a human woman. Pretty hard to discard that without rejecting Christianity altogether. In the case of Judaism or Islam, I think my comment about God’s gender being basically arbitrary still stands.
Talisker:
I haven’t got time to respond in depth to your comments, as they’re quite long, and tbh the discussions I’m having with you and some others are threatening to dwarf the article itself, which I’m sure you’ll agree is a shame.
I’ll just say these brief points:
1. Unless a tradition is completely harmless to everyone, it ought to be changed or at least open to criticism. This is vitally important to stop oppression, I’m sure you’ll agree.
2. Human beings using their own judgement to decide which parts of a holy book are okay and which are not is exactly what I’m talking about in paragraphs nine and ten in my article. You seem to believe it is okay for people do this – I don’t agree. I can see why people do this, but not why it is okay to do it, why this tendency shouldn’t be openly criticised. I think I summed up my feelings on this aspect already in the article, where I said “Those who are comforted shouldn’t be able to silence those who are harmed.” Perhaps we should leave it at that!
3. As for traditions – I’ve never put a Christmas tree up in my own house, no. I can’t be bothered, I’m not a Christian, it doesn’t mean that much to me! I’ve been to weddings yes, and cringed at the many misogynist ‘traditions’ that the couples happily go along with (all straight thus far, haven’t been to a civil partnership yet). I’m not sure what watching a sporting event has to do with tradition – I don’t really like sport much but when I do watch certain events it’s more because I enjoy them, than I’m feeling all like mystically connected to my ancestors and stuff.
I have enjoyed arguing with you, really, but I think it’s time to draw a line under it before we both write ever-spiralling theses. Agreed?
Fair enough, I agree this is developing into something more like an essay in its own right. A few final replies:
I’ve said several times above that all traditions should be open to criticism and rejection, to prevent harm in general as well as oppression. No argument there, but a flawed tradition can still have value.
For example, the US Constitution and Declaration of Independence are secular, but were created by sexist, racist slave-owners, and since then the US state has been complicit in slavery, war crimes, economic oppression, etc. By revering these and other symbols of the USA, are Americans giving some sort of tacit approval to these atrocities? Maybe so, but I really don’t think that’s sufficient reason to discard the symbols altogether. On the contrary, it’s important to remember the crimes done in your group’s name and seek to prevent them in the future.
Similarly, it’s possible for a religion to say, “This is how things were done in the bad old days, but we’ve learned better now. We can disapprove of what our predecessors did while keeping some of their beliefs.”
I’m not sure why you have a problem with this. The real problem is with the doublethink practiced by so many religions (particularly Catholicism): “God’s will is very mysterious, and I know for an absolute fact that God hates condoms.” This is dangerous nonsense and it should be exposed and challenged at every turn.
But if there is no claim to superior moral authority, then there is no contradiction, and there may be no problem. This is a subtle point but I think it’s important.
Full disclosure: My wife is Jewish, from a pretty secular strand of Judaism. The Jews are well aware that it is impossible to follow the Old Testament literally, and undesirable to try. If you ask them whether they would kill someone for working on the Sabbath (as explicitly commanded in Exodus 31:14), they’d answer, “Of course not, that would be crazy!” They choose which verses to follow and which to ignore.
The atheist writer Greta Christina did an entertaining post on this: http://gretachristina.typepad.com/greta_christinas_weblog/2009/12/trekkie-religion-and-secular-judaism.html
I know that not all religion is like this, but some is, and my point is that such religions can be good and positive things even if I don’t agree with them personally.
A Christmas tree has almost nothing to do with Christianity. Jesus didn’t say anything about decorating a tree. But anyway. If you don’t enjoy tradition for the sake of tradition, then that’s fine, but it’s a matter of personal taste. I frankly don’t care if wearing a kilt on Hogmanay symbolises an outmoded nationalist mindset, it’s fun, and part of the fun comes from the knowledge that lots of other people are doing it.
I too have enjoyed this discussion, many thanks.
Talisker:
A few final, final points:
When I said traditions ought to be changed or open to criticism unless they are completely harmless to everyone, I was responding to this comment you made above:
“But it doesn’t make you bad, wrong or foolish to decide that some traditions are worth keeping, even if they don’t entirely make sense and aren’t completely harmless.”
I disagree. It doesn’t make a person ‘bad’, but they would be wrong to say that tradition X should be kept when it harms some people (‘not completely harmless’ = partially harmful, no?).
The reasons why I have a problem with holy book cherry-picking are mainly detailed in my article, but I’ll summarise them here for yourself and any readers who have made it this far down the thread:
1. It doesn’t make sense to take the holy text as your ‘evidence’ for the existence of God, and treat many verses as though they were God’s intentions if not his exact words, and then use arguments such as ‘oh it was written in ye olden days when people were a bit stupid’ as a reason not to abide by other laws in the book. Either it was all written by bronze age bigoted men, and so everything they said was a product of their environment and lack of knowledge – everything meaning their insistence that God exists too – or it is God’s word, and you should take it all seriously. You can’t have it both ways.
2. Taking 20% of a religion’s teachings and happily abiding by them and calling yourself a full member of this religion (thus giving it power), while, on the other side of the world, someone is being hurt by a person who abides by 90% of the religion’s teachings, is not okay. It’s short sighted and it’s selfish.
3. Being a cherry-picker leaves you absolutely no platform from which to fight extremism (and by ‘extremism’, I mean people who follow the loving word of God most accurately – a fucked up situation if ever there was one). Consider this conversation as an example:
A: Stop stoning that woman! It’s immoral.
B: But it says right here that I must do it, in order to be a good Christian.
A: No you don’t. God is love and he loves everyone, even this woman.
B: But it says right here that she must be stoned.
A: Just ignore that bit, and read this one instead!
B: Why? Are you God?
A: Er, no…
B: Then how can you tell me that this isn’t God’s will?
A: Ummm…
Do you see what I mean? The only reason the above situation doesn’t happen more often is that most people don’t generally live in theocracies any more.
4. Aren’t three reasons enough? I’m sure I can think of more, given time, but alas, I don’t have it.
Even though I don’t care for traditions and try to do things differently whenever possible, I can assure you I still have lots of fun. LOADS, in fact.
amy clare, as a man i can assure, you are absolutely right. I have reading the books of Karlheinz Deschner and Uta Ranke Heineman who proves what your are more right than you can imagine. Don’t be sad for some blogs of blind women, it proves only that religion is a real and perverse poison. Education : yes. Religion : no. Also Deschner has established the fact that women are the most loyal members of the church. The only explanation in my opion is ignorance and fear. So it is good that you write such a article. Congratulations.
D
OK, very quick replies, and please don’t feel obligated to respond:
What’s the problem with that? Ancient Greek philosophy was certainly written by bronze age bigoted men, plenty of it is immoral or just plain wrong, none of it should be followed blindly, but parts of it are interesting and insightful.
Not true in general. How exactly does a feminist Reform Jew’s observance of Passover “give power” to a hardline, woman-hating Jewish zealot elsewhere? And is it reasonable to ask the Reform Jew to give up his or her faith and traditions, just to demonstrate that they do not agree with the zealot? One could argue that the reformist “takes away power” from the zealot by demonstrating that hardline fundamentalism is not the only way to follow their religion.
I think that’s a misunderstanding of ‘extremism’. No one follows any particular holy book literally, in its entirety. The bigots are choosing to ignore the peace-and-love statements, just as surely as the moderates are choosing to ignore the hatred-and-vengeance passages. The likes of Martin Luther King and Desmond Tutu have argued vigorously that, within the context of Christianity, they are right and the bigots are wrong. A great many Christians do not see King or Tutu as somehow “less Christian” than Pat Robertson or the Spanish Inquisition, quite the opposite.
I think I missed out an important point in your argument:
Very few things which have been around for a long time and involve large numbers of people are completely harmless. An American saluting their flag? That gives a tiny scrap of encouragement to those who have done, and continue to do, terrible things in the name of that flag. Wearing a kilt? Arguably it contributes to Scotland spending too much time and energy on a romanticised version of the past, instead of facing the challenges of the present and future. And so on. Frankly I think you’re holding religion, even in its most moderate and unobjectionable forms, to a standard which no human institution could meet.
Talisker:
Well, I kind of have to respond don’t I, since you’re misrepresenting my arguments!
My point about the ‘bigoted bronze age men’ is this: you can’t shun Rule X in the Bible with the excuse that it was written by said men, and then say Rule Y is okay – because it was still written by those same men. There has to be another reason for saying that X is wrong and Y is right. People who say they believe in Jesus because of what it says in the Bible, and who then say that killing people for not observing the Sabbath is wrong because ‘oh the Bible was written long ago’ are being hypocritical.
By asking me what’s wrong with bronze-age writing you’re missing the point. The point is that this excuse of bronze age bigoted men is often trotted out when there’s a tricky verse to explain away, but it is conveniently forgotten when it comes to fundamentals like the existence of God or the divinity of Jesus.
If you call yourself (for example) a Catholic, and you write ‘Catholic’ on the census form, go to mass, observe the various holy days, contribute to the collection plate, etc etc… you are adding your number to Catholicism. Same if you are a practising Jew, a Muslim, etc. Bums on seats, and money from followers, is what gives a religion power. Religious rules, including woman-hating rules, get written into the laws of various lands precisely because of this power. I could give you several examples of this regarding Christianity and UK law, just for starters – and the UK is a relatively secular country. You don’t see Wiccan rules influencing laws, because Wicca has very few followers, and comparatively little cash. The Church of England, by comparison, is worth billions, has armies of followers and is very influential.
When a religion has power it can: build schools and inculcate children into its belief system; run missions to other countries; build new churches fronted with huge symbols of their religion; pay people to proselytise, hand out leaflets, target vulnerable people; use other media to ‘spread the word’… it grows, and the more it grows, the more people it reaches and the more likely zealots will be produced. You don’t know, when you practise your pastel version of whatever religion you have, how the power that you have partly enabled is going to be used. It’s especially worrying when the people in charge of the religion (for example, the Pope) are conservative, and ‘hardline’ as you put it.
Yes actually, I think it is reasonable to ask religious moderates to look critically at their religious behaviour, when women are being harmed in the name of their religion. If I was giving my money to a charity or a company which, I found out, had links to the abuse of women and girls, I’d stop propping it up tomorrow. No matter how attached I was to it. Some things are more important than the fuzzy-nicetime feeling you get from following a tradition.
As for ‘peace and love’ in the Bible and so forth – if I said, on the one hand, ‘you should love everyone’, and in the next breath I said ‘go and kill these people, even the babies, leave none of them alive’ – what exactly would that say about my commitment to peace and love (and my sanity)? Why has no-one called God out on that except atheists? For a quick comparison, here are the verses in the Bible relating to cruelty and violence, and here are the verses relating to Nice Things. If you don’t want to read all the way through, then here’s a breakdown: there are 282 references to positive messages (like peace and love) in the Bible, and there are 1197 references to cruelty and violence (God either committing violence himself or ordering people to do it for him, including specifically instructing that babies be killed). So God is approximately 4 times more into violence than he is into peace and love. Looks like King and Tutu were wrong.
In my article, I’m not talking about kilt wearing and nationalism, and things that could be said to be 0.001% harmful but are really fine, I’m talking about women and girls being really harmed, physically or mentally, by religious beliefs and practices. I’m talking about the damage caused to women’s rights by our society refusing to see religion for what it is, for deferring to it when we should be openly criticising it, for valuing faith over evidence.
My standards for human institutions are usually that, at the very least:
a) if they make truth-claims, these are backed up with evidence;
b) they consistently uphold universal human rights, and seek to avoid harming people wherever possible.
Many institutions meet these standards. Religious institutions don’t. They don’t even pretend to, a lot of the time. The recent hoo-ha surrounding Christians being allowed to discriminate against gay people is a case in point.
Anyway, please can this debate be over? I ask that in the politest possible way, you know.
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