Theocrats all sound alike
For the first four decades of Israel’s existence, the army — like many of the country’s institutions — was dominated by kibbutz members who saw themselves as secular, Western and educated. In the past decade or two, religious nationalists, including many from the settler movement in the West Bank, have moved into more and more positions of military responsibility…“The officer corps of the elite Golani Brigade is now heavily populated by religious right-wing graduates of the preparatory academies,” noted Moshe Halbertal, a Jewish philosophy professor…Those who oppose the religious right have been especially concerned about the influence of the military’s chief rabbi, Brig. Gen. Avichai Rontzki, who is himself a West Bank settler…He took a quotation from a classical Hebrew text and turned it into a slogan during the war: “He who is merciful to the cruel will end up being cruel to the merciful.”
Well that’s an interesting bit of casuistry. To more rational people it seems more likely that people who are cruel to the cruel will end up being cruel in general.
Rabbi Rontzki’s numerous sayings and writings have been making the rounds among leftist intellectuals. He has written, for example, that what others call “humanistic values” are simply subjective feelings that should be subordinate to following the law of the Torah. He has also said that the main reason for a Jewish doctor to treat a non-Jew on the Sabbath, when work is prohibited but treating the sick and injured is expected, is to avoid exposing Diaspora Jews to hatred.
Pretty stuff.
Mr. Halbertal, the Jewish philosopher who opposes the attitude of Rabbi Rontzki, said the divide that is growing in Israel is not only between religious and secular Jews but among the religious themselves…The religious left also rejects the messianic nature of the right’s Zionist discourse, and it argues that Jewish tradition values all life, not primarily Jewish life. “The right tends to make an equation between authenticity and brutality, as if the idea of humanism were a Western and alien implant to Judaism,” he said. “They seem not to know that nationalism and fascism are also Western ideas and that hypernationalism is not Jewish at all.”
Sounds unpleasantly familiar, doesn’t it – as if Hamas and Rontzki deserve each other.
http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/channels/avnery/1237674669
The media produce a lot of false stories based on Palestinian propaganda. I was outraged by the killing of Mohammed Al-Dura. But the revealed fraud of the media participation in stories such as the Al-Dura, the Jenin massacre and ‘green helmet’ lugging dead babies around battle sites to display for the credulous media organisations just disgust me. It seems like progressive sloganeering now is building a foundation to justify policies such as the charter of Hamas provides.
This chap does not sound nice, but ‘nice’ people seem to be passively changing, and this story is part of a trend.
Deserve each other, indeed. Don’t you just wish there was a way to lock them in a room together and make them either grow up or take their hate out on each other, without involving (and killing) peaceable types?
Jenavir why do you equate the two as though there is equal wrong? it seems to me that on the one hand you have a civilised liberal democratic nation and on the other you have ruthless,rasist,despotic thugs who,s only purpose in life is killing jews.
“This chap does not sound nice, but”
There’s no but. He is not nice. Defending the people of Israel is too important for this guy to be allowed to help fuck it up.
For the avoidance of doubt:
Theocratic thuggery inspired by Hamas -> bad .
Theocratic thuggery inspired by IDF Chaplains -> bad.
It’s not who, it’s what.
Richard,
I assume Jenavir meant locking the likes of Rontzki up with Hamas. He certainly isn’t liberal or civilised.
It is, of course,a truth univerally acknowledged that references to the Holy Land Question on the interwebs give off toxic emanations that “Bring Teh Stoopid” in large volumes from astonishing distances. Closely followed by “Teh Nasty”, “Teh Rude”, and “Teh Accusations of Antisemitism, Racism, Islamaphobia, Fascism, and Not Wearing Clean Underwear On The Sabbath”. If it were not all so frankly appalling, it would be utterly hilarious.
Jakob even if that was the case you still cant equate this rather unpleasant jewish soldier with the type of people who send brain washed dupes into piza parlours to self explode among civilians can you?
Yes of course you bloody can; a theocrat is a theocrat is a theocrat. Rontzki isn’t just a ‘rather unpleasant soldier,’ he’s a settler and a Brigadier General and the army’s chief rabbi.
Richard,
The only difference is that Hamas aren’t restrained by any pesky secularists.
“Jenavir why do you equate the two as though there is equal wrong? it seems to me that on the one hand you have a civilised liberal democratic nation and on the other you have ruthless,rasist,despotic thugs who,s only purpose in life is killing jews.”
Richard. Did you actually bother to inform yourself about the atrocities committed in Gaza at all?
“Jakob even if that was the case you still cant equate this rather unpleasant jewish soldier with the type of people who send brain washed dupes into piza parlours to self explode among civilians can you?”
No. They are worse. The IDF is far worse in its actions and ideology than a billion terrorist boogeymen would be. The IDF bombs schools and civilian homes. The policy of Israel is genocide.
dzd,
Hamas fires rockets civilian homes so how can the IDF be worse?
dzd,
But how does that make them “far worse” than Hamas? What exactly is far worse than deliberately murdering innocent civilians?
Besides, dzd, surely you realize that the policy of many of those ‘terrorist boogeymen’ is also genocide?
But Isreal are the bad guys so Hamas must be the good guys!
Cf. Dave’s comment above.
Hamas are a vile bunch, but if I had been raised as a Palestinian in Gaza I suspect I would have turned to violence.
Well, if I had been raised as an uneducated male in rural Afghanistan perhaps I would now be burning down schools that educate girls – but I would be wrong.
See, it’s like the big, red button with ‘DO NOT PRESS’ written on it…
And none of you will ever get back the time it took to post those comments, time you might one day need, time you could use for a final farewell to loved ones; time to reveal the password to your secret Swiss bank account, or to finish your contribution to quantum gravitation theory. Gone, all gone…
I don’t see the two as comparable.
Well, I probably see the two as comparable in some ways and not in others, but it’s not clear what you meant by ‘violence’ – which could be for instance attacks on soldiers or on the other hand attacks on pizza shops. But apart from that, suspecting one would act in a particular way if one had been in a particular situation is not necessarily to say anything normative about acting that way. I suspect I would behave very badly if I were in all sorts of situations, from which I conclude that I’m probably capable of behaving very badly.
dzd Who would you sooner be captured by? the I.D.F or hamas, answer that and you would also answer who is worse.
Why must there always be a good guy and a bad guy? The world isn’t a 1950’s Hollywood movie where the bad guys wear black hats and the good guys wear white ones. Isn’t it possible that both Israel and Hamas commit atrocities and neither of them has any ethical justifications for their atrocities? Is it always necessary to take a side in a conflict, as if it were a football match?
Amos sometimes you should take sides because one party is more at fault than the other,I think this conflict between Hamas and Israel is a good example of that. Israel withdrew from Gaza and has been attacked with rockets ever since so it is reasonable to support them.
So you ‘support’ them by brushing off all criticism and by portraying the two sides as Evil v Good? Not useful, not reasonable, not interesting.
This is something you do often, Richard. It’s as if you swallowed Bush’s “if you’re not with us you’re with Them” line and have never veered from it since. But Bush’s view of the matter is imbecilic. One can support one side against another and still criticize the flaws of the side you’ve chosen. You can, and you’d better, because power that is put beyond criticism does not tend to be responsive to the needs of The People.
Fair point I probably do do that, although I would say that whether Israel is good is probably in the eye of the beholder but surely it is reasonable to portray Hamas as evil,I mean if they are not evil what is?
Been off-line for a couple of days so this thread is probably over, but to clarify my point about turning to violence – there has always been a strong secular strand to Palestinian nationalism and if, as a youngster, I had grown up seeing settlers in armoured bulldozers demolish my village, root up the olive groves and pen me into a battered hell-hole just because they can, then I would not need to be a misogynistic fundamentalist to find myself taking aim at the armed driver, or the check point squaddies who daily humiliate my family. I could be a liberal atheist and still be driven to it.
Whatever the historical or political roots of the situation, you can’t have a generation grow up in Gaza and not expect violence, out of sheer desperation.
The swaggering bully in Swat intimidating women into subservience is not coming from the same place at all. That is not to say that Palestinian society has not fallen prey to growing fundamentalist dogma, but it wasn’t always that way.
It seems one of Richard’s comments directed at me has been removed. Probably just as well.
Don, sure, I get you. (I’m not sure Gaza and Swat are as different as all that, unfortunately, but that doesn’t really affect your point.)
Don the Palestinians dont take aim at the squadies or the bulldozer driver though, their favorite target is women and children that are killed and maimed in bus bombings or piza parlours. This is a deliberate ploy used to cause the maximum pain to a people still recovering from the loss of 30 percent of their number during the holocaust.
I would also point out that when the crossings into Israel from Gaza were open they were used by suicide bombers to create havoc so its a bit much to complain that Israel pens in the people of Gaza.