NPR says ‘ew’
NPR proudly joins the vast majority of good decent centrist moderate sensible okay acceptable Americans in saying how horrible atheists are, especially the ones who don’t keep their atheism a tactful secret.
Last month, atheists marked Blasphemy Day at gatherings around the world, and celebrated the freedom to denigrate and insult religion.
No, that’s wrong, and tendentious. What atheists celebrated on Blasphemy Day was the freedom to say anything we like (barring incitement to murder and similar) including but by no means restricted to perceived denigration and insult. NPR was careful to trash ‘atheists’ in the opening sentence, so that nobody would be in any doubt even for a second that NPR is opposed to atheism.
They quote Stuart Jordan, a science adviser at the Center for Inquiry, tutting about the painting of Jesus doing his nails.
Jordan says the exhibit created a firestorm from offended believers, and he can understand why. But, he says, the controversy over this exhibit goes way beyond Blasphemy Day. It’s about the future of the atheist movement — and whether to adopt the “new atheist” approach — a more aggressive, often belittling posture toward religious believers.
Well, there you go, you see. We don’t think ‘aggressive’ is the right word (let alone ‘belittling’). We don’t think we are aggressive, we think we are no longer silent, which is a different thing. That’s the rock on which these two streams always separate – what is aggression and what is perfectly reasonable non-secrecy. It’s the same rock in Don’t Ask Don’t Tell, obviously. It was the same rock in the Civil Rights movement, and in feminism, and in gay rights. We don’t think we are obliged to be quiet, so we speak up, and the people who think we are obliged to be quiet then call us ‘aggressive’ for not being quiet. Then we get annoyed that mere speaking up is called ‘aggressive’ so we speak up all the more – so this kind of labeling backfires when it comes to silencing us but it works a treat when it comes to making everyone else think we are bad aggressive people. It’s a very loaded word, ‘aggressive’ – it’s one of those words it pays to be suspicious of, in case it’s being used in peculiar and dubious and even sinister ways.
The reporter got Paul Kurtz to make some unpleasant accusations about nameless ‘new atheists.’
Kurtz says he was ousted in a “palace coup” last year — and he worries the new atheists will set the movement back. “I consider them atheist fundamentalists,” he says. “They’re anti-religious, and they’re mean-spirited, unfortunately. Now, they’re very good atheists and very dedicated people who do not believe in God. But you have this aggressive and militant phase of atheism, and that does more damage than good.”
Who are? Who are all these ‘they’? Dawkins, Hitchens? That would be odd, since both have been affiliated with the Center for Inquiry and written columns for Free Inquiry for many years. Ron Lindsay, who replaced Kurtz as CEO of CfI and disagreed with him about Blasphemy Day? Possibly. Everyone else who’s ever been called a ‘new’ atheist? Possibly – but does Kurtz really know that all of those people are mean-spirited? No of course not – and he should have been more cautious than to let the pious NPR reporter bounce him into making such a claim. I’ve been called a new atheist, and Paul Kurtz didn’t act as if he considered me mean-spirited when I was at CfI in 2007. He told me how terrific he thought B&W was, too. He did talk about wanting atheism and humanism to be affirmative, but he didn’t talk about it as contrasted with any kind of fundamentalist or aggressive or mean-spirited atheism; not that I heard.
But things change, of course. That was then, this is now. The Great Sorting continues.
For some time now I have noticed that the reportage on NPR seems to be getting stupider. I find myself snapping impatiently at the voices on the radio more and more. Some of this is surely a result of aging (mine), but I don’t believe that it is just that.
The reporters seem to think that because an idea is new to them it will be new to their listeners. They don’t seem to explore topics with much depth or style.
At this point I leave the clock radio tuned to NPR for the local affiliate’s traffic report. Oh, and I still like “Wait, Wait, Don’t Tell Me” and “Car Talk.”
On Saturdays, I will occasionally listen to NPR’s Weekend Edition. Scot Simon is too much of a homer for Christianity and it often gets in the way of him being moderately objective. One of the worst was an interview a few months back with Ronny Milsap. God was behind all of the good things in his life, but none of the bad – abandonment by his mother, beatings at a school for the blind and so on.
This bit of the article sort of sums up the crappiness of the journalism:
“…often belittling posture toward religious believers.
Some call it a schism.
“It’s really a national debate among people with…”
Ooh that little snide aside, set on its own between two paragraphs and repeated in a sub-header shortly after: so unsubtle. And not backed up either – none of the quotes use the word ‘schism’; at most they simply say that different atheists have different approaches and they don’t all agree. Big whoop, as Americans might say – people without a defined dogma disagree on something, hold the front page.
It’s so annoying too how these sorts of articles talk about atheists ‘belittling’ believers (especially when most of the time it’s the belief being criticised, not the people) and of course never ever mentioning that religious condemning to hell of atheists is a given for many believers.
The Great Sorting that goes on is illegitimate and unfair, of course.
But I think that if the kindly ones were more serious about their argument, they’d find a defensible basis for a different kind of ‘sorting’. I don’t think I’m stepping out on a limb by saying that while Dawkins tries to convince the diffident, Myers errs on the side of being an amusing jerk. He’s Dawkins’ bulldog (if I can be forgiven for making the Darwin-Huxley analogy). They really do seem like very different kinds of activists to me, even if they’re on the same page as far as their atheism goes. (And I actually doubt that Myers would disagree with being called a jerk. It’s sort of his M.O.)
I listened to a few podcasts a while ago after hearing NPR referred to in positive tones (I’m a Brit). I found it be rather self-satisfied and superficial. Judging by this utterly dishonest article, and a lot of the comments on it, NPR is certainly not the haven of good journalism and rationality I was lead to believe.
“NPR is certainly not the haven of good journalism and rationality I was lead to believe.”
No, it’s not, and it’s always telling us it is, which makes it all the more annoying. I have the same problem with the NY Times – which doesn’t hesitate to call itself the best newspaper in the world.
Oh noes! A schism!
So when do the Crusades against the accommodationists begin? When do we get to round up some prissy self-styled agnostics and burn ’em at the stake?!?
Oh. Right. We express our disagreements with words, like grown-ups.
I’ve never seen it put more succinctly than in this 2002 editorial cartoon by Aislin in the Montreal Gazette (click on 03-05-02). For those whose eyes aren’t as sharp as mine, the legend at the top reads “Hey! Here’s a headline we never see…”
This is probably a dumb question, but here goes: is it hypocritical of me to propagate enlightenment values including free speech and to post irreverent “blasphemous” images on the internet, but to then draw the line at direct personal insults? Is it much different to imply (a) “your beliefs are not worthy of positive regard” as compared to (b) “you are not worthy of positive regard.” In the case of (b)what is being disregarded other than someone’s belief about themselves?
I’m not being facetious, I’d really like to hear people’s thoughts on this.
Parrhesia, if someone was given some drug cocktail or some operation on their brain that turned them from a decent person to some emotionaly labile twat would you blame them and wash your hands of them? Or would you say that yes, their actions are hurtful and that’s something that can’t be ignored (perhaps they need professional help or something) but they’re a victim? Isn’t the case the same in your question?
Blame the disease, not the diseased I suppose.
Thanks Brian, but I don’t follow . . .
My question is more about whether I am a hypocrite or not regarding offense.
Thanks Brian, but I don’t follow . . .
Non-sequitur, thy name is Brian. :)
In my opinion there’s nothing hypocritical about attacking the belief. Beliefs have no human rights. I understand that many folks define themselves by their beliefs, but in rational discussion one ought? to be able to point out the logical conclusion of an argument. If offense is taken, it’s quite awkward, but now we’re in psychology not philosophy. Personly, I like the spanish saying “Mejor una verdad amarga que una mentira dulce”. How is it an attack to tell the truth?
If none of that followed then I bid you good night and apoligize for occupying a part of your life that you’ll never retrieve. :)
And I apologize for my awful phrasing and spelling. :)
I think we can be too quick to differentiate between people and the ideas they hold, after all in a sense people _are_ the ideas they hold. So criticising the idea is criticising the holder. I remember getting really angry and defensive when my wife used to see some TV program or hear a piece of music that I liked and refer to it as rubbish. My emotional trail went something like “You say this is rubbish”
“I like it”
“You are saying I like rubbish”
“You are saying I am rubbish”
(The last step is not necessarily justified but it was there)
This is why language is so carefully controlled in some group psychology session, with use of “I think” rather than “it is”.
That is not to say you should not confront bad thinking but if your opening line is the equivalent of “That is a stupid idea” your audience goes down the path:
“You say that is a stupid idea”
“I hold that idea”
“You are saying I hold stupid ideas”
“You are saying I am stupid”
(The last step is not necessarily justified but it will be there)
If you audience thinks you think they are stupid, or malign, they will not listen to you.
(This may be the point that Mooney et al were trying to make but they got so tangled up trying to be nice and respectful that they went too far and started conceding points that should be held.)
This is why language is so carefully controlled in some group psychology session, with use of “I think” rather than “it is”.
Indeed, because it’s the Hot Issue but that is why people are attending therapy. As I said people define themeselves by their beliefs.
But this is not therapy. People are not coming to us to slay their demons. Where is the moral duty? If a person believes the road is clear but there is a truck barrelling down, should you not deabuse them of their belief? If a person claims that such and such is the truth when it is patent absurdity and harmful, shouldn’t you point this out? If, following John Stuart Mill, you are not infallible and the person with the dearly held belief is not infallible, then shouldn’t you argue the case? After all, an erroneous belief, no matter how dear, is still erroneous. And given that none of us is infallible, all our beliefs are open to objection and are only rationally held when they stand against the objections.
Hmmm. Brian and Tom, thanks very much. I follow. ;-)
But . . . I am referring to irreverent imagery, such as Raptor Jesus and Allah-saurus, two visual jokes which are doing the rounds on facebook, not serious assertions or critiques of beliefs. It is this kind of “blasphemy” that Kurtz is decrying, and it is these very same images which have aroused such anger as to lead to personal insults being levelled against me and my facebook group members.
If, as a matter of fact, religious people DO identify with their beliefs and cherish their god in the same way as I cherish my loved ones, regardless of how I might wish to bifurcate ideas from people, then the fact remains that these irreverent images will cause genuine hurt to some people. So my question is . . .is it hypocritical of me to delete direct personal insults from the group while propogating imagery which, evidently, some genuinely find hurtful?
As I said “That is not to say you should not confront bad thinking” but if you start by effectively saying “you are stupid” you won’t get very far.
Assuming we want to change peoples minds then we need to keep them listening.
“It’s a very loaded word, ‘aggressive’.”
Yes, why not use ‘assertive’ or ‘forthright’?
While I think the NPR segment was biased and inaccurate (PZ Myers drove a nail through a eucharist for blasphemy day?) I think it does have a grain of truth underlying it. The fact is that there is a split occurring within the wider atheist movement. It’s different from the type of religious schisms that have been commonplace in history for the reason that its not simply one group breaking into two but rather it is the result of a more scientific rationalistic atheism growing in numbers primarily through ‘recruiting’ formerly religious individuals.
Personally I don’t have a problem with the term ‘new atheist’.
In fact I think its a much more useful term than ‘atheist’ since ‘new atheist’ actually denotes something positive. To me ‘new atheism’ means the sort of scientific naturalistic philosophy of Dawkins, Dennet, Harris, Hitchens, Coyne, Larry Moran and Ophelia combined with a firm commitment to free speech and a skeptical questioning of all beliefs.
Critics, religious or faitheist, who use the term ‘new atheist’ as a denigration fail to see that in fencing off the new atheists they are simultaneously doing us a favor by separating us from ‘old atheists’ like Stalin or Mao, accomodationists like Ruse and Mooney and unscientific non religious individuals like Bill Maher.
Tom, the images aren’t saying anyone is stupid. They are profaning what some people hold to be sacred. If people genuinely believe that they have a relationship with their cherished god, then I guess I can understand why they feel hurt by these images, in the same way I might feel hurt by images profaning my mother.
I am not trying to change the minds of religious believers, but I wish to express my ideas and engage in discussion. I don’t want to be hypocritical in principle, I am not really thinking about strategy. In this light, do you think it is hypocritical for me to delete direct personal insults while propagating irreverent material which some believers find hurtful? If so, should I allow people to make direct personal insults and leave the images, or should I delete both? Maybe I am looking for the line between hate speech and free speech.
Parrhesia, I’m afraid I don’t know. It would depend on the nature of the insult. I think hate speech is generally held to include an explicit or implicit encouragement of violence towards the target, but I’m not sure.
As an aside, why do you want to engage in discussion unless you want to change someones mind (your’s or someone else’s)?
Benjamin Nelson wrote:
“And I actually doubt that Myers would disagree with being called a jerk.”
Or, he might simply call you a jerk, certainly a defensible position.
For the record – I’d prefer not to see the word ‘twat’ used as an epithet here. I realize that in the UK it has been so domesticated that it just means ‘twit’ – but 1) its origins remain and 2) the UK isn’t the world and the word has not been domesticated in the US.
Just saying. For the record.
Tom, sometimes, though I don’t consciously base my personality on it. It just happens naturally.
Yeah, I tend to agree with Parrhesia, or what I interpret her as saying: sharp and mocking criticism of religious ideas is good, hurtful/mean-spirited imagery that doesn’t actually make a point other than “Hahahaha, you stink!” ought to be avoided.
But I’d note that affirmative does not equal non-aggressive. We can be aggressively affirmative atheists.
“If people genuinely believe that they have a relationship with their cherished god, then I guess I can understand why they feel hurt by these images, in the same way I might feel hurt by images profaning my mother.”
Well I can understand it but that doesn’t mean that I can buy into it. I don’t think we should buy into it – because belief that you have a relationship with a (hidden) god is not the same kind of thing as actually having a relationship with your mother or with any other real person. I don’t think we can or should be expected to tiptoe around all delusions of that kind – not least because the objects of the delusion are so bossy and demanding and often unjust and downright cruel.
Epistemically, people don’t really have a right to expect anyone to treat their ‘relationship’ with god or Jesus or Mo as the equivalent of a relationship with a parent or spouse or friend. (Similarly, it would be asking a hell of a lot of people to expect them to invite one’s inflatable doll to parties along with oneself.)
I apologize for the word twat Ophelia. I used it with the pronunciation ‘twaet’ (as in cat) not ‘twot’ (as in hot). The former meaning twit, the later not. Seriously never made the connection before. A twaet was someone who got drunk (jeez I really got twatted last night) or was as silly as someone who was drunk as far as I knew.
Oh well. I’ve probably not helped the case with my explication. Apologies again.
Haha, OB. Your parenthetical remarks had me picturing a devout believer staring in horror at a party invitation with a “+1” included, trying desperately to decide whether to bring their spouse or Jesus. It also brings up the old joke: Can I use the high occupancy lane since Jesus is my co-pilot?
I tend to agree that the usual rules don’t apply when the very existence of one of the parties involved is in question. In a similar way the ‘courtiers reply’ shows we don’t need to worry too much about the volumes of scholarship in a given field until we establish that the field is legitimate.
Parrhesia, I don’t think you are being hypocritical. I see your point about consistency to a principal such as basic civility. But, taking into account the power relationship between the minority making the blasphemous cartoons and the majority who might possibly be offended, I think you are in the clear to side with the minority.
It’s really ok, Brian – that’s why I said ‘for the record’ etc. I have learned that the usage is different in different places. (I didn’t know about the different pronunciation though! That’s interesting.)
Thanks everyone for your responses. I agree with you about epistemology OB, but what happens with true believers is you get to an epistemic impasse which is the equivalent of “did too,” “did not,” “did too,” “did not, etc . . .” I am not in it to change their minds, more to put the ideas out there where young people at my uni can see the true nature of this debate for themselves. I am also learning dialectical skills, practising written expression, and not to mention growing a thicker skin.
Interesting point about minorities, Grendel’s Dad. The thing is, these people are claiming minority status, as they are Muslims in a Western country, not to mention a Westernised world. Many of them would be immigrants, or first or second generation immigrants. They see me as picking on them, which is why they are picking on me. I pointed out the context of my criticism of Islam is part of a wider concern about religion in general, but they don’t seem to able to see past their own faith.
The whole thing kinda sucks.
Not sure that’s quite fair, OB–yes, your mother is a real person who you have a real relationship with. But there are (usually) all sorts of delusions and irrationalities and factual errors that are inherent to that relationship. I think we do have some obligation to respect others’ irrational delusions. To me the question is where is the limit of that respect. And I would say the limit is when you have an intellectual or moral principle at stake, and showing “respect” past a certain point would make it impossible to defend that principle.
I also don’t think it’s so simple to say atheists are the disempowered minority here, especially not when you’re talking about white male middle-class atheists (who are most of the prominent ones) versus a religious ethnic minority that’s been oppressed far more than atheists have (colonized, arrested without charge, tortured, etc.).
I think we do have some obligation to respect others’ irrational delusions.
When they are highly emotionally important to others, that is.
Jenavir – well, no, my mother is not a real person I have a real relationship with. Be that as it may, I don’t think the fact (if it is a fact) that there are all sorts of delusions inherent in that relationship is the same thing (or sort of or almost the same thing) as a relationship with an imaginary person.
When you say you think we do have some obligation to respect others’ irrational delusions do you mean ‘respect’ in the sense of think well of, esteem, or in the sense of leave alone?
I certainly agree we shouldn’t interfere with others’ harmless irrational beliefs that are highly emotionally important to them, provided no intellectual or moral principle is at stake. But I think we probably already knew that. It’s the other kinds that are the issue.
“I also don’t think it’s so simple to say atheists are the disempowered minority here”
Huh? I didn’t say that.
Wasn’t responding to you on that issue, OB, but to Grendel’s Dad. Sorry I wasn’t clear.
I don’t mean “respect” in the sense of a feeling of esteem, no. That’s not the sort of thing that can be demanded anyway. Essentially I do mean “leave alone; don’t gratuitously insult.”
I do think delusions about a relationship with a real person are *sort of* the same as believing in an imaginary person, *if* those delusions really are contrary to factual evidence, unfounded, entirely faith-based, etc. But I suppose that’s a whole separate topic.
Jenavir, do you think it is “gratuitously insulting” to propagate irreverently humorous images such as the “Allah-saurus” image (which is essentially a picture of a bearded dinosaur wearing the same turban / bomb as the image of Mohammed from the Jyllands-Postens debacle)?
The cultural significance of “Allah-saurus” also pertains to the Raptor Jesus image which even had its own Wikipedia entry. The images also probably allude to the “dinosaur” quality in the sense that religions are anachronisms long past their used-by date. The other political backgrounding to the images is that which this blog entry is about: blasphemy laws, Blasphemy Day and Paul Kurtz’ dissent.
So, is “Allah-saurus” really insulting? How so?
And if “Allah-saurus” is indeed insulting, given the political background, is it gratuitously so?
Personally, while I am certainly in favor of free speech, I see a difference between some ‘blasphemous’ images, such as the Jesus and Mo cartoons, and others, such as the Danish picture of an evil looking Mohammed with a bomb for a turban.
I haven’t quite formulated in my mind the way I draw the line in the sand but there does seem to be a line for me – although perhaps its one of personal taste or manners rather than strict principles.
To me it seems that blasphemy is fine so long as you are using the blasphemous image as a way of getting at some underlying truth rather than simply trying to shock people. This is important since the current Irish blasphemy legislation allows for blasphemy (which it defines as something that offends religious believers) so long as it can have artistic or educational purposes – something I think applies to Jesus and Mo.
While I don’t want to commend the Irish legislation I think the use of artistic and educational purpose can be useful in defining the line between ‘good’ blasphemy and simple shock tactics.
But Sigmund do you think it’s clear and unmistakable that the turban-bomb-Mo was not trying to get at some underlying truth?
I think it’s a very ambiguous image, and that in a way that’s a disadvantage of (wordless) cartoons as opposed to language…but all the same, I think the underlying truth it was (I think) trying to get at is not one that should be blocked from view.
On the other hand it may be that it is one that should be got at only via language.
Sigmund, what do you mean by “artistic purposes?” These days, artists regularly turn the public into the artistic medium. It could be argued that the response generated by the cartoons (effigies being burnt, fatwas being issued) WAS the art. If art is a mirror . . .
For what it is worth, Mr. Kurtz’ publically displayed attitude to religion, and irrationality in general, is far too ‘accommodating’ for my liking.
I see his approach vs mine as being akin to the nuanced distinction between ‘evidence based medicine’ and ‘science based medicine’.
The former accepts concepts irrespective of their plausibility, but based solely on evidence garnered to date.
The latter uses this evidence, but heaps in a dollop of ‘scientific prior plausibility’ into the pudding.
The former may result in erroneous accommodation, whereas the latter avoids such political disasters.
(See Steven Novella for a more nuanced distinction of ‘evidence-based’ vs ‘science-based’ judgement)