Knowing what words mean
David Thompson did a post telling me off for saying ‘pussy’ is a sexist epithet. He also, very oddly, emailed me to tell me about the post, as if I would be pleased and interested. This is odd because as far as I’m concerned we’ve been on non-speakers since another post he did last July, a rather unfunny one about jokes about women. I was alienated because (having been as it were invited) I commented on that post, somewhat acidly, and was rewarded with three pages worth of sexist garbage. Want a sample? (Relevant, your honour; goes to the question of sexism.)
“Obviously Ophelia is on her period. Now have a seat and let a big, strong man bring you some cold water and a towel to deal with your bad case of the vapors.” That was probably the stupidest, but there was plenty more of the kind of thing. David Thompson has a policy of not interfering with comments, so there they all still are, demonstrating that there is no such thing as misogyny, or something. I concluded that I would not be reading David Thompson’s blog any more – not just because I think people should get rid of personally insulting comments of that kind, but also because the comments were nearly all so unpleasantly stupid and truculent, so as if the commenters all aspired to be Rush Limbaugh. It’s interesting how comments can ruin a blog. That’s why I don’t have a policy of not interfering with comments; I think that’s such a mistake.
So, as I say, David Thompson emailed me to tell me about this new post, which is another one about the non-reality of sexism and how it’s all in my mind. And just to make sure there is no uncertainty about that, there are more of the – erm – slightly crude comments (and backtracks to even cruder posts by other people). The next-to-latest is “Why do we give a shit that some cunt-flapper is offended?” Now why would I think for a second that there is such a thing as a sexist epithet? I can’t imagine, and I’m sure you can’t either.
But, ironically, in the post David Thompson said something (I assume inadvertently) that gave me a hint as to why there is confusion about the word ‘pussy.’
On the very rare occasions I’ve used the word – ironically and with a terrible American accent – I’ve used it to denote a kind of feebleness. Naïve soul that I am, I took the intended meaning here to be that Allah appears to be a sissy, coward or weakling, perhaps rather pampered, like a house cat; not that Allah in some way resembles the female genitals…
You see it? With an American accent. That indicates to me that he has picked up the word from American movies and cable tv shows, without knowing what it means, and without knowing he doesn’t know what it means. That’s easy enough to do. Traveling in the other direction, I’m pretty sure that very few Americans know what ‘wanker’ means. I used to think to plotz was to flop down on a chair or other comfortable spot, and I used it that way, and finally someone gently informed me that it means ‘explode.’ This happened just a few years ago. I didn’t know what it meant, and I didn’t know I didn’t know what it meant. Fine – but then when someone told me what it meant, I realized that I had had it wrong. It’s not completely clear to me why David Thompson and others can’t manage to draw the same conclusion. DT says in the post, and told me via email, that he assumed it derived from pusillanimous. Understandable; but it doesn’t. It means female genitalia, and people who think it means something like kitty kitty are making an understandable mistake but still a mistake. People who make that mistake, and rebuke people who point out the mistake, and call them cunt-flappers – are being what David Thompson told me I was being: presumptuous.
(By the way: I looked it up in Webster’s Third at the library; one definition is female genitals, esp. vulva.)
No argument from me on this one, Ophelia.
But do you think that there is a point at which taking offence becomes unjustified and annoying? I wouldn’t use “pussy” in the way you’re objecting to, but what do you think of the following case?
Many women here will happily refer to their genitalia/public area as “my pussy”, as observed on the other thread. In my experience, which may not be typical, they are more likely to talk that way with a lover than just ordinarily (though how would I know how they talk in all-female company?). The term is also sometimes used by men, but, now I think about it, not all that often. And of course, we are familiar with the more common use of this term with the same meaning in the US.
I don’t find it objectionable, though I would probably only use the term with a lover who, herself, uses the term (meaning that I would not use the term at all these days, if that’s clear).
Still, I remember being lectured somewhat angrily back in the 1980s about how horribly sexist this term is – not because I’d used it, but just as a general critique of the culture. The objection seemed to be that it was demeaning to women to call their genitalia after something CUTE like a cat. You’d never, it was alleged, call the male genitalia after something CUTE (I guess it’s true that roosters aren’t cute, so “cock” is not a counterexample).
I dunno. Maybe this critique is right, but getting upset about that seemed to me to be going overboard. At the very least, the term seems fine between lovers. Your opinion?
Russell, oh, sure I do. And I said somewhere that in public is different from private, and I had lovers in mind. I think the word has a completely different overtone when a woman uses it of herself – that is, of hers. Cough.
That’s part of what’s annoying about all the flaming at DT’s – everybody brings in all the stupid examples (niggard! as if I objected to the word niggard!) and points and laughs, but I agree about the stupid examples, and that some things are worse than others, and so on.
Anyway, if your lecturer was saying women’s genitalia should never be called something cute…well please. That’s going WAY overboard. And as for never calling the male genitalia something cute – oh please, again. Like nobody uses cute nicknames?! Come on!
Lovers can do what they like (assuming mutual consent). Commenters on websites and blogs, different thing.
(I was tempted to start a discussion on Facebook, but thought better of it. Ha!)
Just a point of clarification, OB – I didn’t mean that this happened in an actual lecture. Just one of those Ancient Mariner situations where someone catches you with their glittering eye and goes on about something that’s bugging them. At the time, I was a baby academic in my mid twenties and the person concerned was a colleague considerably older than me but at the same level in the hierarchy.
I suspect that a lot of that extreme 1980s paranoia about language has gone, and I certainly haven’t seen it from you, but wondered what you’d think of the example.
I posted this over at DT’s blog, but thought it might be informative here as well:
“Well, on the etymology question, according to the good old OED, “pussy” by itself originated as a word meaning cat, being a derivative of an old German word for cat. It dates the use as slang for a woman’s genitals to 1699, and as slang for a “sweet or effeminate male; (in later use chiefly) a weakling, a coward, a sissy. Also: a male homosexual” to 1904, in the sense of tame housecat. Incidentally, pusillanimous is derived from a Latin root, meaning small and weak, and is unrelated to “pussy”. Ahh, the joy of false cognates.
Given this origin, it seems that there are anti-female connotations in the use of pussy as an epithet, but not direct ones. Women are associated with cats, because cats are supposed to be weak and pretty, which people considered virtues in women. Weak and pretty were not considered virtues in men; thus associating a man with a cat says that he possesses traits traditionally considered effeminate. The issue seems to be lingering value judgments given to traditional gender roles more than anything.”
I’m generally on your side in all this; language matters, and every time we use words like pussy we’re placing a value judgment on gender roles that, in an ideal world, we have no business making. I’m not sure how much we as a culture can change about tending to value assertive men and meek women, but using words like pussy, with all the derogatory baggage they’ve picked up over the years, just does no one any good. And yes, in America at least, the association with women’s genitals is unavoidable.
Ophelia
You seem to think that there’s a single serial derivation for all uses of pussy/pussycat, all passing through a sexist isthmus making all uses objectionable. I find this bizarre.
I ask again – when it means: good-humoured, sweet-natured, affable, amiable, genial, easygoing and agreeable, not the grumpy surly tyrannical sourpuss you might imagine – does the vagina/woman meaning make this one sexist too?
_____
Actually a commenter on the David Thompson thread makes a pooint which rather contradicts my opinionating (on the other thread) that ‘pussy’ was not widely understood in the US sense (by people in the UK) until recently. He or she points out that there was a running joke on Are You Being Served (a sitcom that you may have been spared in the USA) about ‘Mrs Slocombe’s pussy’ (I have only just this minute noticed that there is even an obscene pun in ‘Slocombe’) that could only make sense if it was consciously punning on the obscene meaning.
Having said that, isn’t it true that if a word has taken on a different usage it is, effectively, a new word, whatever its original meaning or its use elsewhere? I mean, otherwise we might fall into the genetic fallacy, no? When someone is called a ‘bugger’ it isn’t now homophobic, is it, even if it once was?
And even if the word is used knowingly to refer to a woman’s genitals, is that sexist? We use all words for genitals pretty much interchangably as insults, whether they are for male or female genitalia, don’t we? They can’t, therefore, imply an generalised insult towards or disparagement of either sex. It’s true that often the words can only be directed at men, but that doesn’t make them more anti-woman sexist does it? Intriguing all this.
“I believe the “amiable, sweet natured” meaning of pussy became obsolete in about 1578.”
I guess you’re not a big fan of “Arrested Development,” then?
Claire
Nothing you label ‘obsolete’ happens
to be so – all very current.
Don’t be such a pussy = Don’t be such a fraidy-cat,
enough with the pussyfooting already.
I’ve never understood it in any other way – and
‘pusillanimous’ being a different source to the
others being argued about doesn’t bar it from
being the source of this non-sexist usage.
The likening of these various sexist and
non-sexist usages to ‘nigger’ is ludicrous.
_____
Flame point ragdoll, Greg? Or what? Whatever it is, it sure is cute.
Hmmm
Does this mean that Ophelia and her supporters really want the worlds languages purged for all words with any possible negative connotations WRT sex in general, and female sexulity or body parts in particular?
….Doubleplusgood?…..NOT
What left of OED would probably look like a pamphlet.
But on the lighter side, here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJpwvh4ICHw
You can demonstrate that pussy is derogatory (the spontaneous laughter), and a rather charming name for a feline (the abolutely spontaneous “non-Freudian slip”).
Cassanders
I Cod we trust
Yes of course, Cassanders, and that’s what I’ve said and that’s the obvious implication of everything I’ve said.
Fucking hell.
“Don’t be such a pussy = Don’t be such a fraidy-cat”
And calling something “gay” to mean it doesn’t make you happy is similar to the use of “bad” to mean good. And calling someone a “dick” does of course just mean that they are being dastardly.
Because we get to drop the distastefulness of intermediate meanings but keep their force if our hearts are pure (or at least our grins are wide enough), and anyone with a dirty mind listening to us only has themselves to blame.
Apparently.
Greg, my first thought was blue point ragdoll, but the face looked quite reddish – presumably just the light. Lilac point, eh? Anyway, Ratatosk is gorgeous. <3
My blue point ragdoll, Mystical Prince Felix (well, just Felix will do), is over here:
http://www.users.bigpond.com/russellblackford/favourit.htm
I suppose I should get a new photo coz he’s still just a kitten in this one. (Hope you don’t mind us lightening this up, Ophelia … it’s better than what usually happens with such threads.)
Another data point…
Jon Stewart used the word “pussy” on the Daily Show last night. It’s at the beginning of this clip–
http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index.jhtml?videoId=223862&title=baracknophobia-obey
Have a listen, and see what you think! I’m gonna say for the most part “pussy” here is being used to compare Obama to a harmless kitten. With just a hint of female genitalia. (I feel like I’m at a wine tasting.)
“Pussy” is a more out there, outrageous word than “wimp” or “sissy.” Presumably that’s because it does have that association with female genitalia. Presumably it’s because Jon wanted a little shock value that he used the word.
So, a complex set of associations, all deliberate.
Cassanders and others: No one, as far as I know, is saying that all words referring to the genital organs be purged from the English language. The protest is against the association of words which signify the female genital organs with certain undesireable traits such as being weak or cowardly, etc. By the way, if a person, for example, Ophelia, says that the use of a certain word offends her, good manners or basic respect seem to dictate the one no longer use that word in her presence, virtual or not, not that one argues with her about the use of the word. When I was a child, I was taught that if someone used a derogatory word about the Jews, for example, “kike” or “yid”, I shouldn’t argue, just hit him as hard as I could. Good advice.
“Because we get to drop the distastefulness of intermediate meanings but keep their force if our hearts are pure (or at least our grins are wide enough), and anyone with a dirty mind listening to us only has themselves to blame.”
I know your intention is satirical, but it is in fact right, isn’t it (as David Thompson says over on his blog) that when a word has an ill-defined or slippery set of meanings we do usually try to judge the intent of the speaker and to judge it in the best light possible? So if the someone who callls someone else a ‘nigger’ is herself black, it is fair to say the word carries a completely different charge.
I am a bit puzzled by this:
“And calling someone a “dick” does of course just mean that they are being dastardly.”
What else does calling someone a ‘dick’ mean?
Adam,
As I’ve said before, you’re being way too dogmatic and certain about all this. That’s especially true given that you are mistaken in your facts.
“Don’t be such a pussy = Don’t be such a fraidy-cat,
enough with the pussyfooting already.”
No it does not, not here and therefore not everywhere. The fact that that meaning is not universal means just that – so your equal sign is not warranted.
“The likening of these various sexist and non-sexist usages to ‘nigger’ is ludicrous.”
No it is not. In the US it is just about as insulting. You don’t know what you’re talking about, so back off on the dogmatic claims.
I have to admire those commenters for their gifts of imagination, and sniffing for the unobvious. Perhaps these could be made use of.
Pussy-whipped: to be whipped into obedience, as by a pussycat.
Pussified: become like a pussycat.
Chasing/scoring pussy: to chase/to mark pussycats?
“it is in fact right, isn’t it (as David Thompson says over on his blog) that when a word has an ill-defined or slippery set of meanings we do usually try to judge the intent of the speaker and to judge it in the best light possible?”
Yes and no. For a start, I didn’t realize the word had any ambiguity until I started this discussion. But to continue, I would say that in the case of epithets, the caution should go in the other direction. If you get a bunch of people telling you ‘Hey, where I come from that word is extremely insulting,’ the correct response is not necessarily to say ‘Well it isn’t where I come from so you are being neurotically PC and presumptuous and stupid besides and there is absolutely nothing wrong with the word so there ha.’ Epithets are touchy business, and it just isn’t automatically right to dismiss objections as mere whimsy or fight-picking or PCgonemad.
And for what it’s worth, the comment at J and Mo still looks to me like a perfectly conscious use of the sexist epithet. No one has given any reason to think otherwise, that I’ve seen. (David Thompson, for one, seems to assume that the commenter is from the UK, but I see no reason to assume that.)
Ha, Matt. Quite.
Well I don’t feel on very solid ground with the word ‘pussy’ because it is quite alien to me but I am intereted in the wider discussion. I still can’t see how a word like ‘twat’ in the way it is generally used, can be considered sexist.
“What else does calling someone a ‘dick’ mean?”
They might be a private eye.
You might have got away with that in 1944, Dirigible, but I think any PI you called a ‘dick’ today would feel fairly unambivalent about your feelings.
“No one has given any reason to think otherwise, that I’ve seen”
Er, watch that Jon Stewart clip from last night (linked above). There appears to be a usage of “pussy” just like the one at Jesus and Mo, and I think the main meaning is pretty clearly wimp, sissy, kitten.
At the same time, I think there are additional associations, and we all know they exist, and good communicators make use of these associations in order to be funny, or outrageous, or to insult people, or for all sorts of other purposes.
So the folks above who say “it means this and NOT that” are working with a naive understanding of communication. If you call somebody a boob, meaning (I guess) an idiot, of course the other meaning comes through. That’s why you would use that word in some situations and not in others.
Same with “pussy.” Whatever the intended meaning, there are additional associations that are inevitable (at least in American English).
I’m not so sure the word ought to be avoided, though, because of those associations. Not sure. Why is “pussy” worse than “prick”? Is it just that where there is unequal power, one must be more careful in the way the less powerful are talked about? Is it for the same reason that white people can be made fun of, but not black people?
Yeah, I’m interested in the wider discussion too. This discussion is an odd mix of the wider, impartial, curious one and the narrower, partial, irritable one.
I must say, I think some of the UK participants, here and elsewhere, are being remarkably parochial in insisting that because pussy is ambiguous in the UK it must be ambiguous everywhere. I feel like urging them all to go to New York and run around calling people pussies and see how that works out.
“I feel like urging them all to go to New York and run around calling people pussies and see how that works out.”
It reminds me of the ‘worst false advice you can give to a London tourist” competition run by the Standard a few years ago. One of the winners was something like: ‘Never pay the first price quoted by a taxi driver. He will expect you to haggle and this will lead to a fun and lively exchange.’
Jean, I would watch the Stewart clip, but I can’t; I have dial-up so I can’t watch videos.
Why is pussy worse than prick. Well I’ve become unsure that it is all that much worse, lately, so I’ve kind of stopped using prick, for that reason. But to the extent that it is worse – it’s partly the power differential, but it’s also just…contextual, which is tricky. I think part of that context comes from the term ‘pussy-whipped’ – which I have heard used in real life by angry men who worked for a female supervisor. It’s a very, very ugly term (one which implies that women have no business being anything other than subordinate), which perhaps gives an extra load of venom to ‘pussy’ itself. It ain’t a friendly word (except, as Russell notes, in private).
I think Ophelia’s right about the streets of New York. The association with female genitalia is very strong. You can’t even really call a cat “pussy” without getting some raised eyebrows. Try googling “pussy” and you’ll get nothing about cats and wimps. So the idea that an American speaker could use the word to mean “wimp” and not even be aware of the other meaning is just not plausible. Yes, they might primarily be thinking “wimp” but they will be aware of other associations that are bound to be triggered.
A young American child could probably use ‘pussy’ to mean just ‘wimp’ – but it would learn better sooner or later.
Speaking of which – some people said that ‘pussy’ means just ‘wuss’ – but I’ve always thought that ‘wuss’ was in fact a manufactured euphemism for ‘pussy.’ Is that right, does anyone know?
Ah, when I heard him use the word last night I thought of you–hoped you were watching live.
I never use “pussy,” occasionally use “prick,” but with slight sense that it isn’t really good. So I think our linguistic habits are the same.
Yes, “pussy whipped” is ugly, though I have to say some “pussy” lingo is pretty funny. “Getting some pussy”…
Well, anyway.
Heeeeere kitty kitty kitty.
snerk
No, I didn’t see it, alas, but maybe I’ll catch the repeat. I do loooooove Jon Stewart.
I may be right about the wuss derivation. One online dictionary said ‘from pussy?’ with no other derivation offered. Encarta says ‘wuss’ and ‘wussy’ are deliberately insulting (and has just a question mark for derivation).
Don’t know! By the way, wikipedia has an amazingly good entry for “pussy.” I now know more about this word than I could possibly have wanted to know.
Now if we can just get a grip on “cunt-flapper.” Origins in the 20s? Movie references? Possible old English? I’ll go grab my copy of Beowolf.
Whan that Aprile with his shoures sote
the cunt-flapper eke he perced to the rote.
Something like that?
1] I didn’t realize the word had any
ambiguity until I started this discussion.
2] …the comment at J and Mo still looks
to me like a perfectly conscious use of the
sexist epithet. No one has given any reason
to think otherwise, that I’ve seen.
Naturally you would think it a sexist usage,
that was the only usage you knew.[1]
It wouldn’t even enter the minds of others –
there was nothing in the context to suggest it.
Hoping that’s good enough reason.[2]
My hair-clutching, as you put it, was that
all this was coming from someone I admired
and respected so much.
_____
Regarding wuss, it appears to be one of those words where the etymology isn’t clear, but you’re probably right. Quoth the OED:
Wuss:
[Origin uncertain. Perhaps a blend of WIMP n.2 and PUSS n.1 Compare slightly later WUSSY n.]
Adam…you’re still not paying attention. In the US, the sexist meaning is the only meaning. Jesus and Mo is on the iternet – it’s not labeled ‘UK Readers Only.’ Turandot (who made the pussy comment) is also not labeled ‘UK.’ I see no particular reason to assume that Turandot was unaware of the US meaning. You still seem to be assuming that the UK reading (in which it can be ambiguous) is the default reading. Why? Why would it be? Why should I too assume that it is?
What do you mean ‘It wouldn’t even enter the minds of others’ – what others? Who are ‘others’? And why are the ‘others’ who would not read it that way more relevant than the people who would? Russell, for instance, understands the word the way I do, and he’s from Australia, not the US.
No, it is not a good enough reason for you to keep insisting that the UK reading is the only one possible; that’s just dogmatic and silly.
It’s also, frankly, just silly to say there is nothing in the context to suggest it. Do you expect me to believe that cowardice and weakness are not traditionally imputed to women, and that a favored way to accuse a man of cowardice and weakness is not to call him a woman, a girl, a sissy, a wuss, a pussy? Do you seriously believe that those things don’t hang together? If so you’re in a dream world.
Helpfully, a commenter at Jesus and Mo has just made this crystal clear. In reply to my “calling a man a pussy is asking for a fight” this commenter said:
“It is here too, but only because it is alleging cowardice or male femininity.”
Yes….exactly. This is my point. Do people really not grasp that this is sexist and insulting? That Arnie of California talking about girly-men is also sexist and insulting? If anybody doesn’t grasp it – sit down, take a deep breath, focus your mind, and try to take it in. It is sexist and insulting.
Yeah, I do understand the
relevant usage of word the way OB does. I mean, it’s not an Australian usage but it’s not that hard picking up from the movies that the usage we’re talking about is full of contempt and takes off from the meaning of “pubes/genitalia”, rather than directly from the much-loved “Felis catus”.
I should add, though, that “pussy” to mean, SIMPLY, “pubes/genitalia” isn’t especially offensive here. It’s much like “cock” for penis: not a word you’d use in front of your mother, rather vulgar and sexual, but not expressing hatred of the relevant sex. The person I described earlier as objecting to that usage wasn’t objecting to it as a hateful word but as a word that made a part of the female body “cute” in a way that we supposedly wouldn’t do to the male body – thereby implying, I suppose the argument went, that women are frivolous, trivial (but loved) creatures like petted pussycats. OB and I seem to agree that THAT at least is a rather far-fetched objection. I see it as an example of extreme 1980s PC.
As an Australian, influenced by both British and American culture, I’m wondering whether transatlantic rivalry isn’t part of what makes these debates get so heated. OB says that she feels the British participants are being parochial and unwilling to accept Americans’ experience of the word and how it’s used. Fair enough, I guess. But I suspect that British participants in these debates are often, thinking, even if they don’t say it: “Bloody cultural imperialist yanks expecting us to conform our language to theirs. I won’t stand for it!” In which case, the male/female/patriarchy power thing gets complicated by the US cultural imperialism power thing, with both sides feeling, for different reasons, as if they’re resisting oppression.
It certainly looked like that was going on on PZ’s thread – whether or not it is here – though no one came out and said it.
@amos
2009-04-08 – 10:00:58
Hmmm, what about swapping OB with orthodox/conservative muslim(s)(like Taleban), ditto chritians, scientologists, hindu nationalists…..
Do you think the rule of conduct for personnal objections to words/terms applies universally?
Cassanders
In Cod we trust
Cassanders, If I understand you correctly, I think that there is never any reason to offend anyone gratuitously, be he or she a Taleban or not. That of course does not justify fatwas or terrorism if one feels offended.
I don’t claim any certainty on the derivation of wuss or wussy, but I always thought it was a concatenation of wimp and pussy.
And as far as the genital connection goes, the most effective comeback I have ever witnessed relies on it. It went something like this:
Q: Are you a pussy?
A: Well, I always heard you are what you eat, ya’ dick!
I know, I know, countering misogyny with homophobia doesn’t exactly raise the level of discourse. But the sort of person who considers pussy to be an insult isn’t likely to be the most tolerant sort.
Now, obviously there can be multiple meanings conflated here. But I wonder, was the comeback where the equivocation is hiding? Or was it there all along?
Ah, that’s interesting about the cultural imperialism aspect, Russell. In David Thompson’s case it’s much more a matter of “bloody PC feminist language-policing” etc etc – so definitely a matter of dueling resistances to oppression. (But so far at least that has relied on wildly exaggerating my proclivity for policing language.)
There’s a thread at PZ’s…?
I meant PZ’s thread about Pervez Kambaksh, which got derailed into a thread about the word “cunt”, with similar transatlantic disagreement.
Oh right, I heard about that but I don’t think I read it. PZ’s popularity is such that his threads become unwieldy in a matter of seconds.
In the UK a “cunt” describes an unimaginably untrustworthy, spiteful, deceitful, yet often powerless sub-human slimeball. Gollum was the biggest cunt ever. It is almost always applied by males towards other males.
In the US, it would appear to mean a hardnosed, heartless bitch, and whenever I hear an American use the term, I’m slightly disappointed for some reason.
Adam, for fuck’s sake, neither am I; all I’m pressing for is acknowledgement of the existence of the pejorative interpretation.
The comment at J and M didn’t look like that to you. Fine. But now that you know that in the US ‘pussy’ does mean female genitalia and by extension weak and cowardly like a woman – surely you can see that the comment at J and M could look different to people who are not you. So what is your point? What are you complaining of? That I refuse to read the comment the way you read it? I still don’t see why I should, for the reasons I’ve said: I don’t see why I should assume the commenter is obviously not American and is obviously unaware of the pejorative meaning.
Marie-Therese O’ Loughlin
Are you sure that wans’t ‘Dick-Lead’ ?
“what’s the closest American synonym?”
Jerk-off. It’s not as ubiquitous as wanker though.
Puss – yeah – I was also remembering earlier that ‘pussy’ could be a word for old woman – slightly dismissive or patronizing but not vicious, nothing like ‘pussy’ (in the US) now. I wasn’t sure how far back though – Victorian? 20s? Agatha Christie-ish? My friend Claire remembered seeing it to refer to Jane Marple, not not to her face. I figure it was about like old biddy (US now, again). Not flattering but not actively hostile either. My idea of a paradigm phrase was ‘a table of old pussies drinking tea in the corner.’
Old pussies – yeah that is Agatha Christie. A village will be described as full of retired colonels and old pussies. Harmless, gossiping old ladies. I’ve seen it in Victorian literature as well, and the image it conjures up is of an old feline dozing in the sun.
Excellent; I didn’t imagine it. That would help to explain why it has a different connotation (or set of connotations) over there.
Indeed, it is quite an astonishing transatlantic mystery. The Pythons’ generation, including Pete and Dud, to the great Hollywood divas; not even rap artists, have been able to explain it.
It remains a prime number of a word.
Like David Thompson.
Jeez, Rosie, I’m lost – that discussion at SS seems all upside down and backwards to me – especially the part where you say you’re insulted as a woman by ‘slag’ but not by ‘cunt’!
And all those places where people say ‘twat’ doesn’t mean female genitalia any more, it just means generic idiot. Urrgh – that’s certainly not true here. Neither, to put it mildly, is the thing about cunt.
I’m with Wally Whosis, I’m afraid – but apparently he’s a huge bore and laughing stock.
Well – I just don’t like the UK argot, I guess. I’ll have to stay over here.
Hmm. Is that like using ‘bolognaise’ to mean spaghetti? As in (I saw this recently) ‘the bolognaise of computer cords behind the desk’? Constrictive because bolognaise is hardly the only thing one can put on pasta, or spaghetti the only kind of pasta one can put under bolognaise sauce.
I’m trying to think of American examples…nothing coming to me…
Jesus christ, any of you fucks have jobs ?
“especially the part where you say you’re insulted as a woman by ‘slag’ but not by ‘cunt’2
This makes sense to me. ‘Slag’ is, nearly always, a sexist term (‘nearly always’ because it is also slightly corny underworld slang to mean something like ‘bastard’ and is used between men with broad, drama-school-approved cockney accents in movies by Guy Richie). It means a woman who is disgusting by dint of having more sex than is approved. It is sexist because it can only be applied to women and evinces disgust simply because she is a woman and behaves like one. But ‘cunt’ which can really only be applied to men, just means (in its sweary sense) ‘bastard’ and does not imply any hostility towards women as women, so is not sexist. It is an empty sign, really’ that just indicates ‘I feel extreme hostility towards you to the degree that I will use a taboo word for you’. The owrd itself could be one of doozens used pretty much interchangeably.
Well that’s just what I can’t get my head around. That’s so not the case here…and I can’t really see how it could be the case. ‘Cunt’ does after all mean ‘female genitalia’ – and as far as I know, unlike ‘pussy’ it doesn’t mean anything else. It’s emphatically not an empty sign here, and the reason it’s taboo is because it’s a hostile word for the female genitalia – it’s not just kind of randomly taboo, it’s taboo for an obvious reason. I don’t see how that could be different in the UK. What are these dozens of other taboo words that could be used interchangeably, and what makes them taboo?
@ John Meredith:
It’s interesting that you say that – in America, “Cunt” is almost purely a vulgar word for women’s genitalia. It’s considered one of the worst. It is sometimes used as an insult, but to my mind only because of the extremely taboo nature of the word, and because of the habit we seem to have of using slang words for genitals to mean “people we don’t like”. I’d also guess that, when used as an insult, it is almost always used against women.
The etymology goes way back to Scandinavian influences, where it definitely means women’s genitals. As nearly as I can tell, that’s what it’s meant in the UK at least until very recently.
On the other hand, “slag” is only just beginning to filter into the US; I would guess a lot of people wouldn’t even recognize it, and most of those who do don’t have a lot of negative baggage surrounding it.
I’m really really curious about this. I badly want to know 1) how ‘cunt’ can be an insult because it is taboo without being taboo because it is a hostile word for the female genitalia; 2) what other taboo insult-words there are that are interchangeable with cunt, and what they mean, and what makes them taboo; 3) whether 1) and 2) are compatible.
On the face of it this just looks impossible to me. Cunt is a strong insult because it’s taboo, but it’s just taboo, it’s not taboo because of what it means, because it doesn’t mean anything, it’s just an empty sign, a generic strong insult. And yet, it means, and has always meant, female genitalia.
Those two claims make no sense taken in combination.
I knew that “fuck” and “cunt” were terrible taboo words long before I knew what they meant. I can even remember the first time I heard someone use the word “cunt” – at primary school, when a girl of about 11 said that her stepfather had called her that. Words can get divorced from their meaning and be known as bad words, can’t they? Milder oaths like “jings” and “cribbens” – I think they are genteel versions of Jesus and Christ (like Gosh darn)- yet people who use them don’t necessarily know that. Just like the word “bastard” – most people wouldn’t know what it meant originally.
OB, I’m right there with you in saying cunt is a powerful insult because of the taboo women’s genitalia thing. I think John Meredith’s claim is that, in his experience, cunt has nothing to do with women’s genitalia. How english usage got to that point is beyond me, but if it did, it did. The only explanation I have is that the insult version got used so much more often than the genitalia version that people forgot the origin. That doesn’t change the fact that it originally gained its force because of the genitalia thing, but it doesn’t preclude the theory that it maintains its force out of habit and tradition.
I’m not sure that the use of the word pussy is a big deal, or that it says much about attitudes towards women. Calling someone a dick means pretty much the same a calling them a cunt–they’re obnoxious and insensitive. Putz (yiddish for penis) carries much of the same sense as pussy: someone who is mainly ineffectual, more weak than malicious. And of course, everyone has an asshole. Being called any private part is considered an insult, and the connotation seems to be more about the sound of the word than the part or gender.
People who are actually far less threatening than they appear are “pussy cats”, and this turn of phrase is still very much in circulation. If a pussy cat is an adult, a pussy is a kitten–weak even by cat standards.
There is one other sense that gives pussy, in the meaning of wimp, its hardest, ugliest edge–and it has absolutely nothing to do with women. This is the locker room male dominance model, the kind of power politics you find in prison. In this case, pussy means bitch, and the bitch here is always a man forced into submission. The bitch is a ‘pussy’ because he is the one who ‘takes it’–a submissive role for a man because he is not expected to derive any pleasure from it. Oddly enough, in Afghanistan and other testosterone poisoned cultures, you are not considered gay unless you are the one taking it, even if it is forced.
So, pussy is equal parts pussy cat, genitalia, and prison bitch. There’s really not that much about women here.
In the UK, all that is, Mark. Certainly not in the US. I promise you ‘pussy’ is a big deal here. (And in Canada, as Jeremy has just informed me!)
Also…you really can’t very well claim that an insult that goes to taking a submissive role in sex has absolutely nothing to do with women.
“Words can get divorced from their meaning and be known as bad words, can’t they?”
“the theory that it maintains its force out of habit and tradition.”
Hmmmm. That seems very difficult to me. If the word is really completely divorced from its meaning – then it weakens as a taboo, and goes on weakening, until it’s not taboo at all any more. I’m not sure it does maintain its force if the meaning is really dead.
If ‘cunt’ really did have the force in the UK that it has over here, then some of the people who throw it around freely wouldn’t throw it around freely. It can’t be both. It can’t be so neutralized that people use it casually and just as taboo as it ever was.
Pussy as slang for female genitalia is much nicer than eg “hole” for instance. “Pussy” meaning something soft and strokable has a touch of tenderness in it.
I never use the word “cunt” myself but as a cyclist who commutes on pot-holed narrow streets I need an arsenal of swear words. I admit to calling blokes who cut me out, or who pass me with inches to spare “bastards” or “arseholes” or “pricks” whereas women who are using mobiles and not paying attention or who are turning right over my path are “bitches”. So I do distinguish between the sexes, though I do call both “fools”. Adjectives “fucking stupid”.
It doesn’t here though. You’d think it would, but it doesn’t. ‘Pussy-whipped’ doesn’t have any touch of tenderness at all.
But I’m finally getting it that the difference is wider than I realized and that the kitty kitty meaning is much more available in the UK than it is here.
It’s interesting that there are so many conversations about insults going on around the blogs I read at the moment.
Also, anyone in the UK who thinks that the yoof of today use the word ‘pussy’ as synonymous with ‘pussycat’ clearly doesn’t know any yoofs. When a young man calls another young man a pussy, they emphatically *do not* mean ‘gentle, laid back, sweet’. He’s calling the other man a woman (or a woman’s genitals) – and *that is bad*. Because being a woman is *bad*, because we’re all weak and timorous fragile flowers, doncha know. To pretend that because *you* use the word (or understand it) in a certain way, certainly doesn’t mean that that’s the common usage.
Seriously – is it that much of an effort to try not to use racist, sexist, homophobic or ableist slurs? Can we really not think of insults that don’t involve language that has its roots in oppression?
TFA
Yoof = YOOFail has oppressively hit home! As the opening monologue of Star Trek says, ‘it is the final frontier’.
Yes, quite :)
It was an ironic use of the term, since I don’t qualify as youthful any more even if I squint.
Oh well it’s not too much effort perhaps, but it’s a matter of principle. If we stop calling people pussies and cunts, we’ll have to stop saying ‘and’ and ‘the’ and ‘is’ next. Or something like that.
Adam, few English-speakers under 90 use “pussy” to mean “pussy-cat” any more, precisely because they know for sure that it will be construed as a reference to genitalia.
When “pussy” is used as an insult, it’s referring to female genitalia. Ditto for “cunt.” Just because you personally aren’t thinking of female genitalia when you throw around the term doesn’t mean that’s not what the word means. Its history and function as a taboo comes straight from female genitalia. And I know British feminists who object strongly to the use of “cunt” as an insult.
When “pussy-cat” is used as a compliment, it’s referring to cats, and has nothing to do with women. “Pussy” by itself is never used as a compliment any more.
I don’t understand why people are so attached to these words. What is so important about calling women ‘cunts’? And what’s with all the disingenuous pretense about what it means? All of this reference to cats is bizarre. It’s like calling a male a ‘faggot’ and then saying you actually meant he resembled a piece of firewood.
Jenavir – I’ve always strongly disliked any sexual meaning attached to ‘pussy’ – smacks of bestiality. So I’m not oblivious to when its presence is so garbed.
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I’m in New Zealand,
I asked the opinion of a room full of rather plain spoken young men and woman what they thought the word “pussy” meant when it was used to label someone. They were all incredulous and actually thought I was having them on when I suggested that the word in that context might mean the female geniltalia. Obviously they know of and use the word in that context on occasion but none of them had ever considered that the two uses were remotely connected. I know this is annecdotal, but as no-one seems to know the origin of the original commenter, I think it’s important you realise the possibilty that his use was entirely innocent.
CptNemo – you don’t say what your young folk actually think that the word means when used as an insult.
I wasn’t going to, but since everyone else was having so much fun with this:
OB:”If ‘cunt’ really did have the force in the UK that it has over here, then some of the people who throw it around freely wouldn’t throw it around freely. It can’t be both. It can’t be so neutralized that people use it casually and just as taboo as it ever was.”
It’s all about social context though, innit? :-)
“Cunt” has definitely replaced “fuck” as the ultimate broadcasting swear-word, and is the most shocking single word you could come out with in “polite company”,but at the same time, some people use it with the same frequency that “motherfucker” appears in Miles Davis’ autobiography…(although not possessing the equivalent wide range of associations):-)
I’ve known some guys for whom “fuck” (and, of course, “fucking”) have been conjunctions, spouted with such an unconscious rapidity that I began to suspect that if you somehow forced them to stop it, they wouldn’t be able to bridge the gap from one word to another.
Ah, the joys of god-sodomising piles of swearing…
@Jenavir
Somewhere on this thread I gave this link :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJpwvh4ICHw
quite some information can be extracted:
1) That somewhere in the anglophone world, *Pussy* is a positive nickname for cat (in use by perople under 90 I dare say),
2) That the audience also was aware of the other connotation,
3) The oodles of lousy porn references you get if you e.g. google pussy
Cassanders
In Cod we trust
“as no-one seems to know the origin of the original commenter, I think it’s important you realise the possibilty that his use was entirely innocent.”
No one knows the gender of the commenter, either, so we don’t know it was ‘his’ use. The assumed male strikes again. (Mind you, from ‘context’ I think the commenter probably was male, that being such a laddish comment and all.) At any rate, I have realized the possibility and I think I have said that more than once.
Adam…what can I tell you. You’re still not getting it. There is room for ambiguity in the UK – much more room than I realized – but there is none in the US. In the US it is just as Jenavir describes it: ‘pussy’ used as an insult is referring to the female genitalia, and nothing else.
“I say there is nothing in the context
of the Jesus & Mo comment to suggest
such a reading; the response: What
nothing in the context of the whole
of misogynistic world history?”
Let’s look at it again.
“I’ve always wondered [why] the gods of today, especially the god of Islam, is such a pussy. He is unable to do a thing to protect himself or his reputation and must rely on his minions to do his dirty work.”
You’re claiming that ‘pussy’ there is just as likely to mean ‘cat’ as it is to mean ‘cunt’? Do people talk about cats protecting their reputations or relying on minions to do their dirty work?
I see John M hasn’t offered any of the many other cunt-equivalent epithets he claims there are. I would still really like to know; I can’t think of a single one.
“In the US it is just as Jenavir describes it: ‘pussy’ used as an insult is referring to the female genitalia, and nothing else.”
Isn’t that going a bit too far? In that ‘Daily Show” segment I referred to way up, Jon Stewart was simulating Republican attitudes towards Obama, and called him a pussy for talking about peace (or something) on this recent trip to Europe. I think he was giving voice to the idea that Obama is a soft, kittenish wimp, not to the idea that he’s equivalent to female genitalia.
That being said, there is an extra layer of derision, because of the inevitable associations with female genitalia. Stewart was counting on those extra associations to make the routine funny. But you can’t say that “pussy” in this context, where it was in fact being used as an insult, primarily meant female genitalia.
Here’s that segment again. Sorry, Ophelia..you have to catch the rerun. This is highly relevant data!
http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index.jhtml?videoId=223862&title=baracknophobia-obey
Dang it! I haven’t seen it yet.
But Jean does something about Stewart’s delivery make your interpretation convincing? If so, I’ll bow to your having seen it, but if not – calling him a pussy for talking about peace would normally mean the woman=coward=genitalia complex – not ‘a soft, kittenish wimp.’
Here’s my competing tv illustration – last night on the debut of ‘Southland’ the older experienced hardened cop says to the rookie ‘If you want to be a pussy and quit’ – whatever. He meant…what guys like that mean by that, which isn’t soft, kittenish wimp.
I wonder if Stewart was working in the other direction…? Relying on the usual meaning but performing it in such a way that it could mean soft, kittenish wimp instead, and that’s what made it funny? I can see him doing it – it would be very Stewartesque – an affected pursing of the lips and sweetness of tone, belying the real harshness of the word. Does that seem to fit?
Then again – yes, I guess ‘and nothing else’ is going too far. Maybe I should have said that the genitalia/insult meaning is the one that can’t be ruled out. Stewart or anyone can of course pretend to be thinking of the puddy tat meaning while in fact playing on the genitalia/insult meaning.
“You’re claiming that ‘pussy’ there is just as
likely to mean ‘cat’ as it is to mean ‘cunt’?”
Hmm, being that literal am I?
– no other similes involved?
Enough to make a cat simile!
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Well, its hard to say what’s primary and what’s secondary. I do think both meanings come to mind, and it’s because of the anatomical meaning that the word jumps out at you. I’m afraid this is an empirical issue, and someone is just going to have to do a study and find out what people are trying to say when they use the word “pussy.” No doubt, though, whatever they’re trying to say, they know the associations.
It reminds me of another recent “Daily Show” routine. It was about Korean missiles, which are apparently called “dongs.” One of the other funny people on the show did a whole news report on these dongs, with constant winking etc. He always just meant the missiles, of course.
Jean didn’t say we were evermindful of all associations.
And what you wouldn’t mind betting about what someobody would do is not exactly evidence of anything, is it.
Conveying a point is one thing. Making a dogmatic claim in order to correct someone else who made no dogmatic claim is another.
Your comment went: 1) Jean you’re wrong. 2) It’s like this. 3) I would bet some people would do it like this.
Dogmatic; dogmatic; doubly speculative.
I called you on it. What are you complaining about?
And this after you blew off my question above.
Bronx cheer.
Adam, I don’t remember where I saw this–it was at some website or something. There was a thing about English towns and streets with names like Boob, Prick, and the like. Don’t remember the real examples. If you got in a cab and said “take me to Boob Lane,” I would think the associations would come to mind. That’s more or less what it’s like for Americans when they hear the word “pussy,” even if it’s sometimes used to mean a harmless wimp. My British husband tells me this is more of an American thing, so you’re mileage may vary (as they say).
Genuinely sorry for my way of expressing things, Ophelia, could have been put in a less forthright way. Jean is on my side of the argument, so there was even far less reason and definitely no impulse or wish to offend. But do check out your own far more forceful responses throughout both threads.
_ _ _
“You’re claiming that ‘pussy’ there is just as likely to mean ‘cat’ as it is to mean ‘cunt’?”
No, not just as likely, very far more likely to mean fraidy-cat – not cat[!?!].
_____
Point taken on Boob Lane, Jean. Have you ever noticed that other situation where you can be nagging away at a crossword clue for ages then click, you construe it as verb and not noun – and the answer comes immediately.
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Adam, well then I disagree for the reasons already (more than once) stated (to and beyond the point of tedium). To repeat, you must be simply assuming that the commenter is British, but there is no obvious reason to assume that; if the commenter is American, the ‘fraidy-cat’ meaning is far less likely, not far more likely. And you’re probably overstating it even for the UK since at least two British commenters here have flatly disagreed with your reading.
On ‘pussy’ meaning female genitalia and nothing else.
“you must be simply assuming that the commenter is British”
I make no assumption of nationality.
“I think he [Jon Stewart] was giving voice to the idea that Obama is a soft, kittenish wimp, not to the idea that he’s equivalent to female genitalia.”
Jean K
“They were all incredulous and actually thought I was having them on when I suggested that the word in that context might mean the female geniltalia. Obviously they know of and use the word in that context on occasion but none of them had ever considered that the two uses were remotely connected.”
CptNemo – New Zealand
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For approximately the tenth time – you’re still ignoring the many comments that indicate (or exclaim) that the genitalia-insult meaning is dominant in the US. To someone from that frame of reference, the comment at J&M is not even ambiguous – it’s exactly like the quote from the cop on ‘Southland’ – typical locker-room male denigration of another male by comparing him to a woman by calling him a name for the female genitalia.
Jean:
In that ‘Daily Show” segment I referred to way up, Jon Stewart was simulating Republican attitudes towards Obama, and called him a pussy for talking about peace (or something) on this recent trip to Europe. I think he was giving voice to the idea that Obama is a soft, kittenish wimp, not to the idea that he’s equivalent to female genitalia.
Why do you think that? I saw that segment and I am as sure of the idea that “pussy” meant womanish, effeminate, etc. as I am of the meaning of any other word in his segment. I don’t see anything to indicate that he meant kittenish.
I think it highly unlikely that Stewart was unaware of the genital meaning of ‘pussy,’ in any case, or that his audience would interpret it that way. If you did a quick poll of his audience, I would bet a considerable amount of money that they interpreted “pussy” to mean genitalia and not kittens. I’ve just never heard anyone call a kitten a pussy. Pussycat, yes. Not pussy.
As an American, I’ve always thought that there is a genital-focused misogynist side to ‘pussy’, though I don’t think it’s exactly overt. (Certainly the feline meaning is as obsolete as the less interesting meanings of ‘gay’ and ‘cock’.)
Here’s an example. If a friend jocularly told his son to stop being such a girl, I would be quite shocked and would feel forced to say something, out of concerns that the boy would learn misogynist attitudes. Whereas if the friend jocularly called his son a pussy, I would simply laugh at the over-the-top vulgarity, and I suspect no concern over misogyny would arise.
Also, the term seems similar to ‘faggot’ or ‘retard’, in that all three have this unmistakable ‘adolescent dipshit’ feel to them. Thus I feel free to use the terms among friends and acquaintances, secure in the presumption that no adult we know could ever use the words without tongue firmly in cheek.
Then again, I’m happy to use ‘nigger’ to refer to inanimate objects, so my judgment might be off.
Oh good, I’m glad Jenavir saw the Stewart thing (and read it differently) since I haven’t seen it.
“Whereas if the friend jocularly called his son a pussy, I would simply laugh at the over-the-top vulgarity”
Wow. Not me. For me the overtones are…baaaaaaaad. Hostile territory.
Dave how would you react if your friend told his son not to let himself be pussy-whipped? Would that sound any worse?
If he was serious about it, I think I’d be a lot more shocked about his perspective on relationships and women than his use of the term, if that makes sense.
Yeah it makes sense. But then maybe his perspective on women would feed back into your sense of the word? I think that’s the case with me anyway (and probably other people) – as far as I know there’s a lot of contempt or hatred (or sometimes both) behind the word, and the usage of ‘pussy-whipped’ is one reason.
Speaking of Jon Stewart – try googling jon stewart pussy – you won’t get anything about kittens but you’ll get a lot of the other stuff. It’s not what you’d call ambiguous.
Jenavir, You say you understood the word as well as you understood any other word in the monologue, but how can that be true? There were words like “Europe” in the monologue, and that’s not ambiguous. But “pussy” is ambiguous. In this particular context, it really did have a chance of meaning many things. Not very likely that it meant female genitalia. That leaves the possibility I threw out, that it meant soft, weak, kittenish. And the possibility that you threw out, that it meant womanish and effeminate. Wikepedia lists these ways of using the word separately. So–two possible meanings that both fit the context. Which is the intended one? Truth is, I don’t know. My husband and I both interpreted it in the more benign way, but we’re just two people.
As to the inevitable associations with female genitalia. Yes, by all means. I’ve made that point several times, above. That’s undoubtedly part of the reason Stewart picked the word. It has associations that he was counting on for a little shock value and humor. So to that extent I don’t disagree with you and Ophelia.
But is pussy ambiguous in the US, Jean? I really don’t think it is. (I’m more convinced of that now, having read that sampling via google. Those people don’t think it’s ambiguous.) Your sense of it could be skewed because your husband is from Over There.
It doesn’t mean the female genitalia literally – but it does mean that as the source of the insult. The three are all one package – genitalia=woman=weak and cowardly. Go to a bar or a gym or a football game and say it, and I doubt you’ll find much ambiguity.
Yeah, but when you google you get all the pornographic stuff, you don’t get the more benign uses. There’s a way of using “pussy” that’s short for “pussycat”…isn’t there? Somebody thinks the boss is scary and doesn’t want to go in and talk to him. So you say to them, “Really, he/she’s a pussycat, don’t worry about it.” You are literally comparing the boss, whether male or female, to a soft, harmless cat. Don’t people sometimes use “pussy” as short for that?
Jean, in a word, no. People don’t use “pussy” as short for “pussycat.” So I don’t think it’s ambiguous at all! If someone calls someone else a ‘pussy’ as an insult, it honestly is as unlikely to mean ‘cat’ as ‘faggot’ is to mean ‘stick of wood.’
Do you have any examples of an American using ‘pussy’ to mean ‘feline,’ especially as an insult? I can’t think of a single time I’ve seen that. I haven’t even seen ‘pussy’ used neutrally to mean ‘cat,’ let alone insultingly.
The genital connotations of the word are just so strong that even if someone wanted to use it to mean ‘cat,’ they wouldn’t because they’d know folks would snicker at them.
In fact the only time I’ve seen ‘pussy’ to mean ‘cat’ is in old British novels–like Agatha Christie calling Miss Marple a nice old pussy.
As a social experiment, one could try going into a room of people and announcing that you have a really nice pussy, and would they like to pet it? Or that they’re selling some pussies next door, and anyone who wants should go get one.
I think that would clear up any question of ambiguity pretty quick!
Finding it amazing that so many just don’t get it. You can pile on all the evidence you like for sexist usage – it’s all irrelevant. Nobody has denied any of it.
It doesn’t matter to the argument:
what the nationality of the author is; if most Americans use the word mostly in a sexual or sexist sense; if the author happens to be the biggest misogynist going; if the author intended it to be misogynistic – he failed.
There are several non-sexist ways of using the word – even in America. The context makes the J&M usage more directly akin to fraidy-cat, pussyfooting, and paper-tiger. There are sexist ways of using the word – this doesn’t happen to be one of them. I will no doubt continue to be accused of silly dogmatic parochial insistence – have to smile.
_____
What argument? You haven’t made an argument.
And you’re just factually wrong that there are several non-sexist ways of using the word even in the US. To repeat: if you think that, trying using the word that way and see what happens to you. Have you ever been to the US? Do you know anything about it? You have to be severely sheltered and clueless to live here and think that there are several ways to use the word ‘pussy’ in the US.
Furthermore, I’ve offered a lot of evidence by now, and all you’ve done is say, over and over again. That’s just rude and time-wasting. I get that you just stubbornly refuse to believe it, but you haven’t offered a shred of evidence for your view, so how about being quiet now.
Very interesting about the differences between British and US usage. But for sure, in the UK, ‘pussy’ can be more or less entirely innocently used to refer to cats. I pretty much always talk about (and to) my two cats as ‘pussies’. I would certainly refer to them as pussies when talking to a child.
If they come in from the rain, there is a standing joke about them being ‘wet pussies’, which is obviously a reference to its other meaning. But it’s only a slightly naughty joke; I could make it in polite company without the company necessarily even being aware there was a joke at all.
………………………
Really?
Could you talk about dripping cocks in polite company and have that be an only slightly naughty joke?
I’m not doubting you, I’m just (not for the first time here) slightly baffled. ‘Wet pussies’ sounds to me like the crudest kind of porn and thus a very edgy joke.
Yes, really. That’s why I mentioned it – I hadn’t grasped, either, how different the usage was. Dripping cocks would be a rather different proposition!
But I don’t see how it could be a different proposition given that the sexual meaning is available. I really don’t get it. If the standing joke is ‘obviously a reference to its other meaning’ then how is it different from dripping cocks? How is it not exactly the same?
I get more confused the more I look into this!
I’m not the only one. Katha Pollitt flatly refuses to believe that anyone doesn’t know what ‘cunt’ means – yet John Meredith above insists that it’s an empty sign.
I’m not sure. But I think because the *usual* meaning of ‘pussy’ is ‘cat’. ‘Pussy’ to mean female genitals is becoming more common but it still has a bit of an American ring to it.
For instance, ‘pussy’ has been used in children’s TV – to mean ‘wimp’. If the obvious meaning was female genitals, it would not have been.
‘Cock’, certainly as in ‘dripping cock’ not only has no available more innocent meaning; it’s been standard usage (to mean male genitals) for a very long time.
But it does, a cock is also an animal! It’s a rooster, a male chicken – and puns and doubles entendres have been commonplace for centuries.
A dripping cock could just be a rooster caught in the rain, just as a wet pussy could be a cat ditto.
Pussy has been used in children’s tv…? Really? Jeez – no wonder there’s such confusion.
Well I guess if you had a rooster that wandered into your kitchen from the rain…
My point is that in the UK ‘cock’ meaning ‘penis’ is probably the first, or certainly the equal, meaning of the word for most people; ‘pussy’ normally means ‘cat’ (I guess the US equivalent is ‘kitty’. It’s as if ‘kitty’ had started to acquire another meaning, but ‘cat’ was still the usual ‘default’).
Yes, that helps make sense of it.
‘Kitty’ had better not acquire another meaning! What would I do when I spotted a nice-looking cat while out walking and wanted to invite it over for a chat? I can’t go ‘Cat cat cat cat cat’ now can I!
Sorry to upset you, OB, but I have actually heard young women use the expression “my kitty”, meaning what you don’t want it to mean. But as long as it doesn’t turn into an insult I’m fine with it.
Oh lord…well maybe I’ll just go ‘doggy doggy doggy doggy’ – cats don’t know the difference.
For the record, I don’t believe it either! I’m with Katha Pollitt. Indeed, anyone who’s watched a British tv show or listened to British comedy of any sort should know that ‘pussy’ and ‘cock’ mean just what they mean in the States.