It is dangerous to all concerned, so go right ahead
Simon Jenkins seems to like to show off a certain unreflective quality in his opinions.
I find distasteful the process by which an American clinic agreed to insert eight embryos in the womb of a disturbed mother of six. It is dangerous to all concerned. But I would not ban doctors from offering multiple embryo transfer or women from seeking it. The world still remains free for human error, just.
But if something is dangerous for all concerned, and 8 out of 9 of the ‘all concerned’ are future babies then children then adults, why does Jenkins so quickly and breezily say he would not ban anyone from causing multiple births? If mulitiple births cause greatly increased risk of premature birth and various kinds of physical and mental damage, as they do, then why not ban it? And what good is it to say, cheerily, that the world still remains free for human error? Error is one thing, deliberately risking the well-being of multiple babies is another. Accidentally tearing a shirt is not the same thing as intentionally risking congenital damage for one’s offspring.
Jenkins is an upper-middle class, fully paid up member of the Komentariat. Very occasionally he’s right, (i.e. I agree with him) but it’s more by luck than judgement. He’s no fool, and he can occasionally write beautifully. He never seems to really make the case to himself before he comits pen to paper; he’s just certain of his own opnions. Sometimes right. Sometimes wrong. Always certain.
OB,
Jenkins states he would not ban doctors from offering multiple embryo transfer or women from seeking it. You seem to imply that he should, instead, seek to ban doctors from offering multiple embryo transfer or women from seeking it. Is that quite what you meant, and would you care to make a case for it?
“I find distasteful the process by which an American clinic agreed to insert eight embryos in the womb of a disturbed mother of six.”
Did somebody say it was six?
“Equally, I cannot see why young women in need of money must fly to New York to sell their eggs”
I think the tone of this gentleman’s language is so mechanical and rigid.
He would be better off speaking about cars.
So Suleman attended only one facility.
“From that facility, it was successful. And then I just kept going in,” she said. The facility, should, monetarily wise, be held accountable for ‘all’ the babies that were born there. It is their duty – it went against the medical guidelines.
Here’s where I read 6 embryos were transferred (and 2 became twins):
http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/02/06/octuplets.mom/index.html
The clinic apparently violated standard guidelines (which limit transfers to 2-4). I wonder what Jenkins means by “multiple” when he says he wouldn’t ban multiple transfers. There’s multiple and then there’s very multiple.
John, I don’t think I imply that. I ask why not ban it. The reason Jenkins offers is absurd.
I am genuinely baffled as to why the Guardian continues to employ Jenkins as its star columnist. He’s frequently wrong, and never interesting.
Yeah, “human error” is a dumb reason to not ban it. A better one would be to keep the balance of the doctor-patient-state relationship in favor of patient autonomy, with less state intervention or medical paternalism.
OB,
you ask why not ban it? That in itself implies that there is a case for banning it – Jenkins argues against that case (albeit without explicitly invoking the presumption of liberty he implies it). Your use of the term ‘future babies’ is hardly without precedent – after all, isn’t abortion fatal to future babies?
Jenavir – I inferred Jenkin’s comment about human error was a sardonic remark that there are so few areas within life in which room for human error is allowed to go unchecked – far from being an argument against banning, it was an observation that so often those who wish to encroach upon liberties invoke the spectre of the results of human error (or malice): think of the children!
OB, you seem concerned about the well being of future babies. Are you going to be coming out against abortion soon?
Whether women recklessly have fertility treatment that may endanger their future offspring, or recklessly have sex which may expose their future offspring to possible abortion, is none of your business.
You ask “why not ban it”. I ask that you make a case for banning it that does not also logically include banning abortion.
John, bomber: you’re asking questions that were answered in the post itself. Brush up your reading skills.
Okay actually I got that wrong, the questions bomber is asking were addressed in a previous post.
http://www.butterfliesandwheels.com/notesarchive.php?id=2600
Asking ‘why not ban it?’ does not imply there is a case for banning it when the question is asked in response to someone who has said ‘why ban it?’ My point was that Jenkins offered no reasons, not that there are no reasons to offer.
OB, could a raise an objection ot another Jenkins rhetorical dodge?
Jenkins: “I recall the debates over these decisions as led by a chorus of women refusing to allow filthy lucre near the sacred bodies of women.”
“I recall” is effing dodgy as a basis for the following claim. I could equally say that society’s moral understanding of fertility treatments was pretty new, and when the first IVF and surrogacy cases happened certain ‘ad hoc’ ethical rules were adopted, debated, contested and objected to. Jenkins emotive dismissal of selectively remembered claims on grounds of sex and emotional tenor is unhelpful.
Chris, yeah. I nearly took that line on too, but decided to keep the post short and blunt instead. I thought Jenkins’s whole piece reeked of veiled misogyny, and that line is one reason. That creepy ‘a chorus of women’ – which he would never say about men talking.
Yeah, absolutely true that the drug addiction is crime however the peoples are using different types of drug in form of alcohol. Now a day it is a very critical issue for us. Mostly the youngsters are doing these such types of things. I think it should be banned as soon as possible otherwise it may create so many problems for our coming generations. Well I don’t think I am alcoholic or dependant – yet. But I am surely approaching that and would love to stop. I drink every weekend and sometimes 3 times during the week. I drink and party with friends, and when I am sober I am a bore and useless with women. When drunk I am confident, and a player! Id love to stop completely but I need to build my social skills and confidence when sober. Anyone out there ever been on the same boat and got out?. Great Post i look forward to reading more!
Sydney Posted on web but not on crm
Alcoholism Information
Yeah, absolutely true that the drug addiction is crime however the peoples are using different types of drug in form of alcohol. Now a day it is a very critical issue for us. Mostly the youngsters are doing these such types of things. I think it should be banned as soon as possible otherwise it may create so many problems for our coming generations. Well I don’t think I am alcoholic or dependant – yet. But I am surely approaching that and would love to stop. I drink every weekend and sometimes 3 times during the week. I drink and party with friends, and when I am sober I am a bore and useless with women. When drunk I am confident, and a player! Id love to stop completely but I need to build my social skills and confidence when sober. Anyone out there ever been on the same boat and got out?. Great Post i look forward to reading more!
Sydney
Alcoholism Information
Yeah, absolutely true that the drug addiction is crime however the peoples are using different types of drug in form of alcohol. Now a day it is a very critical issue for us. Mostly the youngsters are doing these such types of things. I think it should be banned as soon as possible otherwise it may create so many problems for our coming generations. Well I don’t think I am alcoholic or dependant – yet. But I am surely approaching that and would love to stop. I drink every weekend and sometimes 3 times during the week. I drink and party with friends, and when I am sober I am a bore and useless with women. When drunk I am confident, and a player! Id love to stop completely but I need to build my social skills and confidence when sober. Anyone out there ever been on the same boat and got out?. Great Post i look forward to reading more!
Sydney
Alcoholism Information