Saying is not imposing
What is fanatical atheism? Dan Gardner had some thoughts in the Ottawa Citizen last year.
In the past, I’ve tried to avoid talking about religion in such sharp terms. It’s not that I fear giving offence (which would be something of a limitation in my line of work). Rather, I know, as all humans do, that it’s scary knowing you’re going to die. And if belief in angels on high eases the existential fears of some, I won’t begrudge them. Whatever gets you through the night, as a long-haired prophet once said.
Sure. I don’t go to funerals so that I can tell the assembled mourners that there are no angels on high. I don’t force my views on anyone. But I do feel entitled, and permitted, and free to talk about them among friends and acquaintances, and to write about them here and elsewhere. I draw a distinction between forcing one’s views on people, and talking and writing about them in public places. And this means that I get more than a little tired of people who call atheists who discuss their atheism in public fanatics or too noisy or similar. I get called all those things myself now and then, and I think the charge is fraudulent. I think it’s fraudulent when made of the putative New Atheists, too. No one is forced to buy their books, or to read them, or to listen to them through buds in the ears, and it’s not as if they’ve altered the prevailing culture so radically that religious belief has all but disappeared. So where does the fanaticism come in? Where are the evil snarling monsters of fanatical atheism?
The first problem for the moderate believer comes from those who like their faith hot. You’ve agreed God exists and that He mucks about in the world. You’ve agreed this book contains His holy commandments. So how do you respond when the mad religious zealot says, “hey, here on page 23, it says we should slice open unbelievers and use their guts for garters. And over here on page 75, it says we should bury homosexuals up to their necks and stuff olives up their noses.”…[T]he more common response is to simply pretend the garters-and-olives passages don’t exist and prattle on about how God is merciful and loving.
But the garters-and-olives passages do exist, and lots of people think God is not merciful and loving but wrathful and punitive, at least when dealing with other people. So why is the onus on us to pipe down?
Then there’s the problem on the other side — among the atheists such as Richard Dawkins who have been labelled “fanatics.”…When the Pope says that a few words and some hand-waving causes a cracker to transform into the flesh of a 2,000-year-old man, Dawkins and his fellow travellers say, well, prove it. It should be simple. Swab the Host and do a DNA analysis. If you don’t, we will give your claim no more respect than we give to those who say they see the future in crystal balls or bend spoons with their minds or become werewolves at each full moon. And for this, it is Dawkins, not the Pope, who is labelled the unreasonable fanatic…This is completely contrary to how we live the rest of our lives. We demand proof of even trivial claims…and we dismiss those who make such claims without proof. We are still more demanding when claims are made on matters that are at least temporarily important.
Just what I was saying yesterday. We want good reasons to believe even trivial claims in the rest of our lives, so why is there this fenced-off bit of our lives where we don’t? And why is it considered fanaticism to ask questions like that? (As long as one changes the wording, at least. To ask questions like that in the same words over and over again, day after day – okay that’s fanaticism. You know who you are. Don’t make me write your name on the blackboard.)
I like when people make assumptions for the rest of us – that first para you cut’n’pasted from Gardner is a doozy.
Is it? He said ‘if’ and ‘some’ – I don’t see where he’s making assumptions for the rest of us. Looks to me more as if he’s being cautious about possibilities about some of us.
Is it really so scary to know you’re going to die?
If I choose to be so mistaken that I actually think the I am consuming ‘the body and the blood’ then, so what? Who is harmed? If the “radical message” comes across as wandering around looking for examples to demonstrate that people are “foolish and gullible”, well then, am I expected to be impressed? Or bored?
Regardless, RDawkins deserves a million minuses, not for his amusingly cantankerous yet incredulous screen manner, but for inflicting the ‘meme’ on us. A concept as unsatisfactory as the Eucharist.
Oh, DFG you have RUINED my day. I like memes even better than transubstantiation.
Besides, Dawkins teaching on memes was pretty OK as a thought exercise – its those radical followers who spoil it. So like ‘The Life of Brian!’ ;-)
At least the eucharist can get you drunk, just keep rotating to the back of the line. Full too. But a bit cannibalistic fo my tastes.
Sadly for me, the grape juice they serve for communion in my church is non-alcoholic. Surely, given the strength of the biblical evidence for alcohol in wine, this is an abomination?
It may also contain traces of nuts.
“…It may also contain traces of nuts.”
Only if they spat….
DFG, you keep saying this about memes, but why?, why is it “as unsatisfactory as the Eucharist? Where did Dawkins go & claim that his memes were a solution to all life’s problems? Why, where?
I’m not a big fan of Dawkins – Brights was over the top for me – but his idea of memes is a good one – just like his idea of genes which was both novel and problematic (& still is the latter). I see a falsifiable claim that does some work in explaining why rhime is a very effective way of maintaining some idea across people. If replication-friendly form has a repercussion on effectivity of spreading/maintaining content, that is significant. It’s not more question begging than Darwin or genes but maybe you find both as bad as unsatisfactory as the Eucharist as well.
“I see a falsifiable claim that does some work in explaining why rhime is a very effective way of maintaining some idea across people.”
Not that I want to get hung up on falsifiability as the criterion for science, but the trouble with meme theory is taht it has never been throw up anything remotely falsifiable. Which, as Chrisper says, is not Dawkins’ problem, since when he suggested it he wasn’t pretending to do science. But when the meme theorists say things like “if you understand it you see it must be true” (loosely paraphrasing Susan Blackmore on radio here in Australia) and then claim to be doing science you have to think a cog has fallen off somewhere. Hey forget falsifibility, just give me a minimally testable prediction – even marxism could do that.
Francis, I’m not following (nor have a big desire to follow) such discussions in detail. I reacted to the repetitive & repetitively unargued remarks of DFG that annoy me as much as meme theorist remarks would annoy me if repetitive & repetitively unargued.
But this: if one would test the memory of 2 groups of 100 subjects where both are faced with some same propositional content but phrased differently – e.g. one in verse & the other not – I guess you would agree the verse versions are memorized better. I think that is fair evidence pro ‘memes’. Anyway, it’s not like genes don’t face questioning from a theoretical perspective.
Yeah – I don’t know why the meme thing keeps coming up. It’s sort of generically OT here, so I’d quite like to see it abandoned.
Umm JoB, Don’t put words in my mouth.
The reason I bag Memes is that they are a crappy theory that is almost he very definition of woolly-thinking. Something I thought this site detested. Unargued? Why argue with what is patently Bullshit? The sing-song example as evidence for memes? Dare I discuss science with someone presenting that example as evidence? And the comment on genes makes it more hilarious.
What is this meme you all speak of?
‘Meme’ is another word for ‘idea’, that doesn’t even have the benefit of being shorter…
DFG – re-read your own post. Posturing is as woolly as it gets. Your style is that of showing your chest hair & hope the other is intimidated. Bah!
The meme of “memes” is proof that memes exist. ;-)
Richard, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meme
A meme is basically an idea that is passed from generation to generation in a recognisable form, like an ideological gene.
Ophelia, the reason I mention ‘meme theory’ (as opposed to to the meme meme which is really just a harmless/amusing “Oh so self-referential” shorthand for a certain sort of idea) is that I see it as the wooly thinking for people who like to think they’re immune to wooly thinking and I happen to think it behooves us (those who claim to give more than mere lipservice value rationality) to put our own house in order. But I suppose I’ve made my point well enough by now so I’ll try not to mention it again.
“A meme is basically an idea that is passed from generation to generation in a recognisable form, like an ideological gene.”
So that’s an “idea”, then. Or perhaps a “concept”, though as that has two syllables, that might be a bit much for some people.
“a crappy theory that is almost he very definition of woolly-thinking. Something I thought this site detested.”
Here we go again – the Sue R argument again. How many times do I have to say this? “This site” is one thing and comments by other people on this particular section of this site are entirely another. Comments on this particular section of this site are by a number of other people and they are not initiated or instigated or endorsed by or checked in advance by “this site” – so this site is not responsible for them and cannot be assumed to agree with all of them.
Francis, I don’t mind if it comes up when it comes up – but sometimes it comes up apropos de rien, and since I don’t talk much if at all about memes myself, it’s beginning to seem like a bit of a King Charles’s head here.
A bit beside the point but “whatever gets you through the night” – a line from a song but I can’t for the life of me remember what the song is…
Can anyone help?
Are you thinking of “help me make it through the night”? Not that I know what that is either. I can hear it, but I don’t know what it is. (A rather Marvin Gaye-like voice, I think…)
John Lennon, I think.
It was composed by Kris Kristofferson.
Sung by: Joan Baez, Peggy Lee, Gladys Knight & the Pips in thec 70’s
“Kristofferson’s original lyrics speak of a man’s yearning for sexual intimacy,
yet they were controversial in 1971 because they were sung by a woman: I don’t care what’s right or wrong, I don’t try to understand / Let the devil take tomorrow, Lord tonight I need a friend”
Johnny Cash also
Gö, du bleibst heit nocht bei mir”.
More power to you Gina Khan. Keep the chin wagging. Thank you for all the knowledge you bestow on us at B&W. B&W is a better place for it indeed.
Marie-Therese, I’m not feeling particularly perky. However, ‘Whatever gets you through the night’ is, I think, by John Lennon, although ‘Help me make it through the night’ is, in fact, by Kris Kristfferson. Both of them have ‘sexual’ content, I suppose. Neither speaks of god or gods, so far as I know. Can gods to that, do you think (that is, help you make it through the night)? Sex is better.
Eric,
Yeah, you are right. It was written by John Lennon, and recorded as a duet with Elton John.
“life it’s alright, it’s alright
Don’t need a sword to cut thru flowers oh no, oh no
Whatever gets you thru your life it’s alright, it’s alright
Do it wrong or do it right it’s alright, it’s alright
Don’t need a watch to waste your time oh no, oh no”
Meme said there’ll be days like this…
Such is life!
JoB,
Posturing? Eh? It’s called bagging that which richly deserves bagging.
Face it, your ‘evidence’ was woeful and frankly, ignorant. Nice one.
And just for the record, I don’t have any chest hair.
Hmmm…no. Memes don’t deserve bagging so richly that it makes sense to bring them up when they’re entirely off topic, which is what you did. The post has nothing whatever to do with memes, and there is something glaringly arbitrary about the way you introduce the subject, or rather, drag it in. That may not be posturing, but it’s still rather particular.
Fair enough. Though it is also appropriate to ask why the term is brought up at all. Do those who use it really believe in their utility and explanation?
Perhaps it’s just a misplaced crusade on my part. I will, in future be more specific as to why a meme is inappropriate for a particular circumstance.
Maybe you bring it up because you’re trying to start a meme!
Ha!