Varieties of relativism
From Taliban, Ahmed Rashid, page 114:
Until Kabul, the UN’s disastrous lack of a policy had been ignored but then it became a scandal and the UN came in for scathing criticism from feminist groups. Finally the UN agencies were forced to draw up a common position. A statement spoke of ‘maintaining and promoting the inherent equality and dignity of all people’ and ‘not discriminating between the sexes, races, ethnic groups or religions.’ But the same UN document also stated that ‘international agencies hold local customs and cultures in high respect.’ It was a classic UN compromise, which gave the Taliban the lever to continue stalling…
In the chapter ‘Women and Cultural Universals’ in Sex and Social Justice Martha Nussbaum tells ‘true stories’ of conversations at the World Institute for Development Economics Research, ‘in which the anti-universalist position seemed to have alarming implications for women’s lives.’ Pp 35-6.
At a conference on ‘Value and Technology’ the economist Stephen Marglin, a leftwing critic of classical economics, gives a paper urging the preservation of traditional ways of life in a rural part of Orissa, India, citing for example the fact that unlike in the West there is no split between values that prevail at work and those that prevail at home. His example of this: ‘Just as in the home a menstruating woman is thought to pollute the kitchen and therefore may not enter it, so too in the workplace a menstruating woman is taken to pollute the loom and may not enter the room where looms are kept.’ Some feminists object. Frédérique Apffel Marglin replies: ‘Don’t we realize that there is, in these matters, no privileged place to stand? This, after all, has been shown by both Derrida and Foucault.’ Those who object are neglecting the otherness of Indian ideas by bringing their Western essentialist ideas into the picture.
Then Frédérique Apffel Marglin gives her paper, which expresses regret that the British introduction of smallpox vaccines to India eradicated the cult of the goddess Sittala Devi. Another example of Western neglect of difference. Someone (‘it might have been me’ says Nussbaum) objects that surely it is better to be healthy than ill. But no: ‘Western essentialist medicine conceives of things in terms of binary oppositions: life is opposed to death, health to disease. But if we cast away this binary way of thinking, we will begin to comprehend the otherness of Indian traditions.’
This is where it gets really good. Eric Hobsbawm has been listening ‘in increasingly uneasy silence’; now he rises to deliver a ‘blistering indictment of the traditionalism and relativism’ on offer. He gives historical examples of ways appeals to tradition have been used to support oppression and violence. ‘In the confusion that ensues, most of the relativist social scientists – above all those from far away, who do not know who Hobsbawm is – demand that Hobsbawm be asked to leave the room.’ Stephen Marglin, disconcerted by the tension between his leftism and his relativism, manages to persuade them to let Hobsbawm stay.
That’s good, isn’t it? Feel for poor Stephen Marglin, confronted by outraged relativist social scientist colleagues who don’t know who this tiresome old geezer is and don’t like his blistering indictment, demanding that Eric Hobsbawm be thrown out! It would be funny if it weren’t, at bottom, so disgusting.
Christ in a pink hat! Things are getting bad when you find yourself on the same side as a repulsive old Stalinist like Hobsbawm, but thank god for him on this occasion.
Ya really got to love Dr. Eric Hobsbawm, (even though he supported the Soviet invasion of Hungary…hmmm. Still, all in the past, eh? Bygones be bygones, time to move on, platitude, platitude, Blairite hand-wringing, etc), he’s never let his personal politics mar his historical writing (not one to allow ideology to get in the way of evidence, at least, not in the stuff I’ve read, and I’m no Marxist…), and has no time for these post-modernist running dogs!
:-)
Wish there was YouTube footage…I have visions of him waving a stick in the air as he admonishes them soundly for their childish intellectual illiteracy… :-))
And as for that “Western essentialist medicine” nonsense, as a friend of mine’s late mother used to say, (with great wisdom), “Yer arse in parsley!”
I saw that book in the library and considered getting it. I wasn’t sure though, as I hadn’t read a review or anything. Is it worth reading?
If they really were relativists how could they demand that Hobsbawn be thrown out? Wouldn’t they have to respect his views like all others?
Good old Eric, well done comrade! I know he’s supported some disgraceful ideas in his day but I can’t help having a soft spot for him. My grandfather was his commissar in the Communist Party
I’m not surprised by Hobsbawm’s reaction at all. Although he’s held some questionable (indeed, as Nick puts it, ‘disgraceful’) ideas in his time, he’s also done a remarkable amount of solid historical work. (Including on the ‘invention’ of spurious ‘traditions’.)
Furthermore, he’s a good example of the fact that ‘left’ and ‘postmodern’ are not synonyms.
Many of the things he’s said recently are perfectly sensible, such as this, from an interview in Der Spiegel, in responding to the question of what rules a young historian must follow:
“The first rule is that you have to abide by the facts. When something is established, it cannot be denied. You can’t lie or keep things hidden. One of the reasons I’m not exactly thrilled about post-modernism is its relativism: the idea that there is no reality. History may not be determined by desirability.”
That’s my translation. A couple of other excerpts from the interview and link to the original are available at:
http://obscenedesserts.blogspot.com/2007/11/life-and-its-times.html
Excellent excerpting, Ophelia! Thanks for that.
They were relativists except about anti-relativists – that’s perfectly consistent, don’t you see?
Funny, I’d forgotten it until John mentioned that interview, but we quote good old Eric to the same effect in Why Truth Matters. He’s had some disgraceful ideas but he does stand up for abiding by the facts.
Nussbaum cites the tradition book in the notes. I’ve been meaning to read it for years…
Ed – which book? Sex and Social Justice? Absolutely, that’s worth reading; it’s terrific. That first chapter is a doozy, and so is the second.
Sorry, I was being wholly ambiguous. I meant “Taliban, Ahmed Rashid”.
Yeh it’s good. I’ve read only part of it but the part is good so I’m assuming the rest of it is too. I got it (also out of the library) because I’ve heard Rashid several times on the radio and find him very reasonable and sensible. He’s a Pakistani journalist, he’s highly critical of Musharref and of the mindless support for him and lack of serious criticism of him in the US, and also highly critical of the assumption that there are only two choices: Mushareff or jihadists; Rashid says that in fact Mushareff’s closing off of all other possibilities of political expression helps the jihadists, because they become the only real alternative. Given what we know of what Mushareff has been doing, that seems a very plausible view.
So, yeah; recommended.
Spell Musharraf ten different ways (all of them wrong) in one reply why don’t you. tsk.
So then there exists a right to offer one’s body as a culture medium for a contagious killer virus, thereby putting every single human being on Earth at risk.
Who knew?
Good grief. Do you know, I hadn’t even thought of that aspect. What an eejit. I’ve been writing about F A Marglin and her absurd smallpox ‘argument’ (which is published as a pamphlet by the UN, I’ll have you know!) for years, yet I hadn’t even thought of global contagion. Derrrr. Thanks, Ray. (I couldn’t even figure out what you meant at first! That’s how thoroughly it hadn’t occurred to me.)
OB: Yes, indeed, our Eric has been (at least in retrospect) on the wrong side of a few arguments. (Though, I believe he’s become sufficiently repentant about the worst of them, and as other commentators have mentioned, he has been scrupulous about his historical work.)
In the end: arguments with people _about_ truth differ from (and are somehow more rewarding) those with people _who don’t believe in truth_.
Regarding the quotation:
“‘Western essentialist medicine conceives of things in terms of binary oppositions: life is opposed to death, health to disease. But if we cast away this binary way of thinking, we will begin to comprehend the otherness of Indian traditions.'”
The binary opposition that is really causing a problem is the one between sense and nonsense.
In terms of health care, taking a binary view of ‘alive’ and ‘dead’ seems not unreasonable. There may be moments of ambiguity towards the end, but once decomposition sets in it’s hard to see how relativism is a practical approach.
Don’t you want to knock out their teeth? And then tell them that toothiness vs gumminess are Western binary conventions.
Incidentally this kind of relativism was satirised by Aristophanes. “If life be death and death be life, and knife be fork and fork be knife” was a translation I heard once of some lines in The Frogs.
Damn, I did ‘The Frogs’ at ‘O’ level Greek Lit.(trans.). Can’t have been paying attention, maybe I should revisit.
It was probably a different translation -I don’t think Greeks had knives & forks in our sense did they? I mean eating (take note OB) knife in right hand, fork in left. “Life” is a word short of rhymes.
Mr Hobsbawn just read (and understood) Marx: “England has to fulfil a double mission in India: one destructive, the other regenerating the annihilations of old Asiatic society, and laying the material foundations of Western society in Asia.” (Karl Marx; “The Future Results of British Rule in India”, New York Daily Tribune, August 8, 1853.)
Sorry to break up your “West is great chest thumping party” folks.
“British introduction of smallpox vaccines to India eradicated the cult of the goddess Sittala Devi”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variolation#Origins
Contrary to the belief that vaccines were invented in the west and then introduced to the east, it was the chinese who invented vaccination and the cult of sittala devi seems to be a variation of native innoculation practices, that has been superceeded by mass produced vaccines.
“Someone (’it might have been me’ says Nussbaum) objects that surely it is better to be healthy than ill.”
It is well known that many vaccines produce a temporary fever and surely it is better to be temporarily ill than to be healthy but in danger of being terminally infected?
dd, the point isn’t (as surely you must realize!) ‘West is great’! It’s that inoculation (and evidence-based medicine in general) is better than a goddess cult. What do you mean ‘the cult of sittala devi seems to be a variation of native innoculation practices’? Where do you get that? It’s not in the Wikipedia article you cite.
Come on, don’t be silly. There’s plenty of goddess and god cult in ‘the West’ and plenty of evidence-based medicine in ‘the East’; the issue isn’t geographic, it’s what works and what doesn’t.
Nice for FA Marglin to so value “the other” in the postmodernist way – however we never see such folks actually wanting to be the other or share the burdens of the other. I think a few days as a menstruating weaver earning a pittance and struggling against smallpox to survive would give her a sense of how ridiculous her writing really is
Hmmyes, it might not though, because she could just tell herself that her previous life experience made it impossible for her to experience that life the way someone born into it would.
The sad thing is that the UN published this article of hers as a pamphlet. I’m not making it up. I’ve seen it with my own little eyes.
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