Submit, and what’s for dinner?
Oh the joy of learning at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary. How the world opens up before the eager student, how the riches of human knowledge spill out before her excited gaze.
It offers for instance ‘classes in homemaking.’
The academic program, open only to women, includes lectures on laundering stubborn stains and a lab in baking chocolate-chip cookies. Philosophical courses such as “Biblical Model for the Home and Family” teach that God expects wives to submit graciously to their husbands’ leadership.
So that all female students will realize they mustn’t get married? Does it work? What are the stats?
Seminary President Paige Patterson and his wife, Dorothy – who goes by Mrs. Paige Patterson – view the homemaking curriculum as a way to spread the Christian faith. In their vision, graduates will create such gracious homes that strangers will take note. Their marriages will be so harmonious, other women will ask how they manage.
Yeah? You think? You sure other women won’t ask how ‘Mrs. Paige Patterson’ can stand the boredom, the dependency, the servility, the official inferiority? If they can even stand to go in Mrs Man’s house at all, that is.
[G]uest lecturer Ashley Smith, the wife of a theology professor, laid out the biblical basis for what she calls “the glorious inequalities of life.” Smith, 30, confided that she sometimes resents her husband…But then she quoted from Ephesians: “Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord.” And from Genesis: God created Eve to be a “suitable helper” for Adam. “If we love the Scripture, we must do it,” said Smith, who gave up her dreams of a career when her husband said it was time to have children. “We must fit into this role. It’s so much more important than our own personal happiness.”
Oh, you bet; ‘fitting into’ a role laid down for us by a few guys a few thousand years ago is much much much more important than our own personal happiness. Naturally. One’s own personal happiness is important only for men, women are just tools. Well done Ashley Smith; enjoy your glorious inequalities.
Whatever. Just make sure you’re not wearing shorts outside the gymnasium, or it will be detention for you!
http://www.bju.edu/prospective/expect/dress.html
;)
Furthermore, no Abercrombie and Fitch logos – they’ve shown an unusual display of wickedness in their promotions! (What, Jesus playing tennis or something?)
And women can’t wear trousers except for some athletic activities. If God had wanted women to wear trousers, he would have – uh – well, he doesn’t want them to, that’s all.
And women have to wear ‘hose’ – meaning stockings. (They have to wear hose because they’re hos? Is that it?) And hairstyles have to be feminine!! Avoid cuts so short that they look masculine!
Godalmighty – do you think they micromanage enough?
And for what? To convince everyone that it’s 1955, that life is an episode of The Donna Reed Show?
This of course is Bob Jones, not the Baptist seminary, which is affiliated with the Southern Baptist Convention.
How one does want to gather a crowd of harlots and ruffians and dope fiends and jazz musicians and nellies and dykes and go visit them for a week or two or ten. How one does want to force on them everything they hate – feminists! Short-haired women in trousers (that’s me)! Men wearing sweatshirts in the morning! S&M! Crystal meth! Porn! Abercrombie and Fitch!
Yeeeep, thet shure sounds laaak normal A-merkin life ter me…
Well at least these women have chosen to attend that university and that particular class themselves; this is a much better situation than that of women in other parts of the globe who have no choice at all as to whether to be a doormat or not.
American women are free to relinquish their freedoms if they so choose.
Well at least these women have chosen to attend that university and that particular class themselves; this is a much better situation than that of women in other parts of the globe who have no choice at all as to whether to be a doormat or not.
American women are free to relinquish their freedoms if they so choose.
By apologising for the double post, am I merely compounding my original faux pas?
What’s the correct procedure in these situations – add a further post explaining that the original double post was an honest mistake, thereby in a sense making things worse with what could quite legitimately be described as a triple post?
Or, should I just have kept quiet and assumed that everyone already knows that it was an accident?
I am assailed by doubt and guilt!
Ian you did the right thing otherwise people might suspect you said it twice for emphasis.
Those women sound like my sister-in-law, who embraced fundie Christianity when my brother did, giving up quite a good career to become ‘fulfilled’ as a wife and mother. It annoyed me enormously that my brother dragged her into his reaction to trauma (our own fundie upbringing – he rebelled, but a few years later went the other way) – but he ended up with what he deserved. I think she has regretted her decision, but will never admit it, and her lifestyle now is incredibly lazy. She stays home, but somehow my brother has ended up doing most of the housework as well as being the breadwinner. She is enormously fat, always suffering from some ailment or another. He is stick-thin, running around cleaning and cooking and washing and looking after the four kids in every moment he is at home, which is a lot, since he is self-employed and working from home.
I swing between feeling sorry for him, sorry for her, telling myself they got what they deserved. But mostly I’m sorry for the kids.
Let them do what they want, so long as they understand the separation of church and state, so long as they stay out of my life.
As the Good Book says, “Render unto Ceasar what is Ceasar’s, and unto God what is God’s” When Christians tell you they want to outlaw abortion and gay rights, etc, ask them the meaning of that passage.
“Seminary President Paige Patterson, said wives of seminary students asked for the homemaking courses.”
I think there is more to it than meets the non Baptist eyes.
“…(P)atterson took a leading role in the 1980s in a successful campaign to oust moderates from leadership posts
…(S)outhern Baptists issued a statement that women should not be pastors and that wives should
“graciously submit” to their husbands.
“The New Testament is crystal clear that pastors are to be men,” he said.”
…(S)outhwestern professor filed a federal lawsuit against the school and Patterson, alleging she was fired from her tenure-track position because she was a woman…”
See: http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2007-08-11-homemaking_N.htm
Richard, that comment made me laugh! Good one.
Letting them do what they want…Well, one, who has suggested anything else? But two, they don’t want, at least not all of them. Tragic Ashley Smith thinks she ‘must’ do it – if she loves Scripture. She thinks that’s more important than her personal happiness. That’s not exactly ‘wanting’ to do it. And three, letting people do what they want becomes complicated very quickly because they of course also do what they want to their children.
ChrisPer – yet again – what is your point? This place is affiliated with the Southern Baptist Convention. Are you claiming that the Southern Baptist Convention is a tiny little outfit with no influence? If so you’re just (as so often) flat wrong.
Marie-Therese – yes – that SBC statement on women is why Jimmy and Rosalynn Carter (and many other people) left the SBC.
“How one does want to gather a crowd of harlots and ruffians and dope fiends and jazz musicians and nellies and dykes and go visit them for a week or two or ten.”
Yeah, OB, and while you are contemplating gathering up the above mentioned citizens, perhaps Paige Patterson’s’ old wannabe evangelical pals (down below) can also by you be included, in your deliberation to want to round up, and join in the College visitation. What a exigent pleasurable mission it would be indeed! Doubtless, All hell will be let loose. Christ! What fun! :-)!
“While studying at New Orleans Seminary, Patterson was pastor of a church and at the same time operated a coffee-house ministry with street evangelist Leo Humphrey in the famous French Quarter. There he worked with biker gangs, underworld figures, homosexuals, prostitutes and runaway teenagers from all 50 states in sharing the good news of salvation in Christ.”
Now, religiously, erm, where is my reefer as I dwell further on the subject matter of The Well Dressed Christian – Colossians 3:12-17 etc.
See:
http://www.swbts.edu/index.cfm?pageid=516 –
Ah – but see my suggested gang of ruffians and dykes and women in trousers would be ‘working with’ Paige Patterson in sharing the good news of freedom from the tyranny of Baptist theology and ethics.
Re: Rosalynn Carter, “Baptist Life Southwestern Seminary creates center honoring ethics leader Land (Rosalynn Carter ordained as deacon by Baptist church Plains, Ga.”
There is a plethora of information in the guise of articles vis-à-vis all things “Baptist” on the following…
Well worth visiting.
http://www.abpnews.com/baptistlife.page
Re: “Nellie”
Btw, I had a grand-auntie Nellie, so was amused on googling, (after reading it in OB’s comment) to find that it had another connotation. Nuff said ;-)!
“Ah – but see my suggested gang of ruffians and dykes and women in trousers would be ‘working with’ Paige Patterson in sharing the good news of freedom from the tyranny of Baptist theology and ethics.”
Aye, OB, – but your suggested gang and you are surely going to have an easier
said than done time – in bringing this inflexible, unyielding, uncompromising fundamentalist around to all of your way of thinking. So you will all unquestionably be necessitating the assistance of the old wannabe bikers, etc, (who, btw, never succeeded in essentially becoming evangelists. By the time, they will be completed with him he will be merrily dancing around to the jazz music, provided by your
‘suggested’ friends in a god-darn tutu.
Chuckle! :-)!
Oh, darn again. Here we were, two boys and two girls in the family, all taught to cook, clean, sew, chop wood, dig the garden, drive cars . . .and have fulfilling careers now we are all going to hell? And on that driving bit, will be forbidden for these women. And these guys are complaining about Islam?
OB:”ChrisPer – yet again – what is your point?”
Just a wince that these ridiculous people and ideas actually deserve the exercise of your notice on them.
For the rest of us, even as christians, such extremes strengthen our free choice more clearly in our minds, and increase our pleasure in the freedom we keep.
(I only hang around because I think you improve me. Is that OK?)
Chris – indeed – such extremes do tend to remind us of the value of freedom.
I exercise my notice on them partly because they are influential…but I suppose I might do so even if they weren’t. The way of thinking (and acting) does interest me. Voluntary abnegation of freedom, autonomy, and even equality of that kind does interest me.
“ChrisPer”
Does it stand for Christian Person? Just wondering! Curiosity killed the cat…etc!
“Just a wince that these ridiculous people and ideas actually deserve the exercise of your notice on them”
I personally think these ‘ridiculous people’ do ‘deserve the exercise of OB’s notice on them’ – because in OB highlighting these “ridiculous people”- says I with a grimace, people like me – in turn, who come from a very dissimilar religious background can learn all about them. I was astonished to find on B&W that such ‘ridiculous’ people sow their fundamentalist Baptist seeds in top notch American universities. The Baptist Church in the political sphere is not unlike the RC Church in that it holds such political influence/power. I knew beforehand absolutely zilch! Ireland, you see, is 80% Roman Catholic.
It’s not a top-notch US university, Marie-Therese – very much the opposite. It’s a seminary affiliated to the Southern Baptist Convention. The US has literally thousands of ‘universities,’ most of which are, to be blunt, more like high schools. Bob Jones is also not top-notch, to put it mildly. Places of this kind are a joke in academic terms – but the fact remains that they exist and they ‘educate’ some people. But fortunately they have no influence, as far as I know, on the better US universities.
Patrick Henry is a little different, because it’s apparently just as awful, but it does send a lot of graduates to work as (choke, gasp) ‘interns’ at the Bush White House. Gawdelpus.
I don’t know. If you beleive the Bible is the inerrant “Word of God,” then the Baptist position seems to make sense.
Unless one starts doing the same thing that the fundies do-picking and choosing what parts of the “message” one chooses to believe. Let’s see, “the kill every man and rape their women” God or “the Sermon on the Mount” one? the “God sacrificed “Himself” for your sins” one or the “Believe or be tortured for eternity” one.
Seems like liberal Christians and fundies make the same mistake-picking and choosing what they want to hear.
I read that Baptists are the second biggest religious denomination in America after Roman Catholics.
“Seems like liberal Christians and fundies make the same mistake-picking and choosing what they want to hear.”
Naturally when it is/was to their benefit. As it was in the distant past with slavery.
“I also read that “Slavery was the “most critical” issue among Baptists. They believed that the Bible supported the practice of slavery, and they also wanted to preserve the rights of ministers to own slaves.”
Well of course if you believe the Bible is the inerrant word of god the Baptist position makes sense; so what? If you believe ‘Star Trek’ is real it makes sense to live your life accordingly, too, but what of it? It doesn’t make sense to believe the Bible is the inerrant word of god.
No Marie-Therese, my screen name means Chris in Perth.
That’s Western Australia, not Scotland. Its a beautiful place to live.
I am finding quite a few people moving here lately (including some lovely Irish lady geologists, and no doubt fine male ones too). If you want to move away from theocracy, you are very welcome here – the level of ‘socially demanded’ Christianity is zero (well, unless your Mum does it but we all have that in one way or another).
While Aussie politicians will admit to going to church, its regarded by many as a potential sign of hypocrisy more than a sign of trustworthiness.
Ah, but Ophelia, that’s my point. Millions do, despite the contradictions and crueltiesw. I guess I take more of a Sam Harris position-the Chritian God of the fundamentalists is far closer to the ravings in the Bible or history than the moderate’s view
Marie baptists are a large group but unlike the R.C. church in Ierland they are not monolithic,quite a number of them take the view that the new testament supercedes the old testament (so they put more emphasis on the teachings of christ)this tends to mean that even though the numbers may be large their influence is not.
Religion and the Founding of the American republic is an absorbing read.
Just look at what a gang of well-dressed men can do!
Top-notch, hmmm, fiddlesticks – indeed!
(I see what you mean, OB).
“Dunking of Baptist Ministers”
David Barrow was pastor of the Mill Swamp Baptist Church in the Portsmouth, Virginia, area. He and a “ministering brother,” Edward Mintz, were conducting a service in 1778, when they were attacked. “As soon as the hymn was given out, a gang of well-dressed men came up to the stage and sang one of their obscene songs. Then they took to plunge both of the preachers. They plunged Mr. Barrow twice, pressing him into the mud, holding him down, nearly succeeding in drowning him. His companion was plunged but once. Before these persecuted men could change their clothes they were dragged from the house, and driven off by these enraged churchmen.”
Yeah, I see that Patrick Henry was a Symbol of American struggle for liberty. In addition, that he delivered the famous “Give me liberty or give me death!”
Was he Episcopalian, by religion, I wonder? I do know that as a young boy – he was, at home, educated – and by his father taught to read Latin.
Nursing Fathers of the Church! How are you? The Nursing Mothers of the Church must have been out of sight, in their husband’s homes, sewing embroidery etc!
There is also a place in Cavan, Eire, called Virginia, my mother retired there when she returned from Birmingham, England. It is a pleasant lakeside town, mind you; there is in Co Cavan a lake for every day of the year.
“My screen name means Chris in Perth”
Well, I never – in a month of Sunday’s would have reckoned on the above, as being your ‘screen name’ There was me -all this length of time – thinking you were terribly holy and all that lark. What a real let down! I am now sorry that I asked you, as I am now going to have to reinvent you.
Perth is so far far away, and down under. The other end of the world my mother always wanted to immigrate to Australia. There was a time in Ireland during, (I think) the sixties when people could go there for ten punts. A cousin of mine (nursing sister) was fortunate in receiving Australian citizenship. However, she was caught up with some peculiar Roman Catholic religious sect that would in my assessment be akin to scientology.
“What Do Atheists Have to be Angry About? Sit down, this will take a minute.”
Brilliant stuff.
Thoroughly recommendable read in B&W News, subdivision.
Sums up so much in just one read.
Marie-Therese,
Well I do think it fortunate to be here. It isn’t so far away as it was, as air travel has got incredibly cheaper (I am thinking over decades in real teerms) and people are now used to the idea of easy travel.
However on reflection I feel that the freedom from religious coercion unmasks a different one.
Basically Australia’s social coercion is toward middle-class PC values. Overall they are not bad, but every so often we get a witch-hunt in the media and the media monoculture goes utterly beserk. Case in point re the One Nation party, a pathetic lot who were not ever going far but became an obsession of the media class until they were destroyed.
It makes me wonder if social conformity pressure (whether against atheists, paedophiles or parking inspectors) is better understood in a more encompassing framewrk than single issue argumentation.
And Marie-Therese,
“thinking you were terribly holy and all that lark.”
Damn. Sorry to disappoint, I just fell in love with a wonderful Christian girl and took the plunge.
Sadly my character deficiencies prevent ‘holiness’.
Marie-Therese, you have shared some amazing and terrible things at times and I am glad to know those tiny bits about you; (without going mushy) I hope one day chance might let us on this forum meet in person.
I think we could all second that cris, also I hope one day Marie can put it all behind her although that will take time maybe a lifetime.
“Baptist/ism conversion/immersion.”
No wait, my sixth sense tells me that ye lads are both after me for some reason or other. Well, I will just have to get OB to rescue me. She is beyond any doubt well used to both your B&W japes. :-)!!
ChrisPer, I have only ever seen geologists at work on the ‘Discovery’ Archaeology television programme. It is fascinating to observe them in TV action. Did you know that a yellow-green glass carved into a beetle-shaped ornament and found on a necklace worn by the ancient King Tutankhamen was created by a meteorite fireball, according to new research.
The carving is known as a scarab, which are ancient Egyptian fertility symbols shaped like dung beetles. In 1999, Italian geologists performed a chemical composition test on Tut’s scarab, which is the centerpiece of a colourful necklace that archaeologist Howard Carter found in King Tut’s Valley of the Kings’ tomb in Luxor.
I find that politicians who go to church for the sake of political appearances and votes are twice as guilty as those who preach as the former are manipulating the church whilst knowing the difference at least with the preachers; (I surmise) they are true to ‘their’ beliefs. Not knowing the difference, so to speak.
“Well I do think it fortunate to be here.” Most Irish people, I know of – who have ventured ‘down under’ would agree with you on that level. They too enjoy the climate, open spaces/educational opportunities, their talents; they say are positively, by the system, exploited. Nevertheless, alas, “The Stolen Generations” now in the Pandora archive at the National Library of Australia, tells another story on a par with Goldenbridge Industrial School. See: apology.west.net.au/
Sorry to but the kibosh on it.
G’day mate!
Marie-Therese, ah, have a pint and don’t worry about the gush. I’m over it already. ;-)
Yes, there are real parallels in Australia to the Goldenbridge story. The Stolen Generations as a whole though, is different.
Did you know that more Aboriginal kids are removed from their families to foster care now than in the stolen times? And of two-parent Aboriginal families, over 60% are Aboriginal women married to a non-Aboriginal partner?
The reason the kids are taken is to save the childrens lives, to stop horrific sexual abuse, stop malnourishment and rescue from murderous violence. And back in the stolen generation times, that was also true. Despite the screwups and abuses in the system it was run by people trying to save lives. Doesn’t matter if you are white or black, the Welfare can’t get it right for those who suffer in their families. (My family was a foster family so I have had a glimpse.)
The facts of the Stolen Generations story are true but the modern moral interpretations are politicised.
Marie it is intresting how baptists difer people tend to always view them in the light of the s.b.t.s (probably quite fairly) for obvious reasons the baptists who take the Christs word supercedes the old testament position are far more sane and not unlike prods. Didnt mean to gush it was all cris s fault he started it.
Rocky road to Dublin
“Kiss me darlin’ mother,
Drink a pint of beer
Thee grievin’ tears to smother”
“The reason the kids are taken is to save the childrens lives, to stop horrific sexual abuse”
ChrisPer, it is ironic that the Australian authorities took children from their homes because of sexual abuse, etc, and with the same token, when the very same children consequently went into industrial schools and orphanages, reports, later found out that incidences of sexual abuse were disturbingly high. Overall 17% of females and 8% of males reported experiencing some form of sexual abuse while under institutional or foster care.
Re: “stop malnourishment”
Again,I know you say they were from their families taken away in order to “stop malnourishment, etc. Nonetheless, my instantaneous reaction on reading that was to draw a parallel with that of children who were by the Irish courts illegally incarcerated into Goldenbridge Industrial School, etc. The system, who illegally removed them, from their homes thus further nauseatingly, disgustingly, horribly antagonised the circumstances, by life-long, psychologically, mentally emotionally starving them. As with Goldenbridge ex-mates, I would surmise that there are still countless broken, damaged, Aborigine people out there suffering the repercussions of having been in the long distant past – ‘stolen.’ We Goldenbridge people unsurprisingly as well use the ‘stolen children’ terminology. “Despite the screw-ups and abuses in the system it was run by people trying to save lives.” This sentence brings to mind the poem by Roger Mc Gough. “Sad Aunt Madge” As the cold winter evenings drew near Aunt Madge used to put extra blankets over the furniture, to keep it warm and cosy. Mussolini was her lover, and life was an out of focus rosy-tinted spectacle. Nevertheless, neurological experts, with kind blue eyes and gentle voices, small white hands and large Rolls Royce are, said, that electric shock treatment should do the trick – it did. Today after 15 years of therapeutic tears/years – and an awful lot of ratepayers’ shillings down the hospital meter, Sad Aunt Madge no longer tucks up the furniture before kissing it goodnight and admits that her affair with Mussolini clearly was not right. Particularly in the light of her recently announced engagement to the late pope.”- Roger Mc Gough. “Doesn’t matter if you are white or black, the Welfare can’t get it right for those who suffer in their families. “ Moreover, they never ‘got it right’ with Sad Aunt Madge and Goldenbridge ex-inmates and the stolen Aborigine children. In fact, they exacerbated whole sordid shebang. Period. Lives, like ours, might have been saved, – but our ‘mental’ lives were drowned. (My family was a foster family so I have had a glimpse.) I have admiration for foster/adoptee families who rescued many children from the clutches of Dickensian/Victorian industrial schools/orphanages/bad homes, etc. And who in addition, who gave to the many defenceless children – warmth, affection and security. They saved many broken lives. Therefore, rescued people of their ilk should be thanking mothers and fathers like yours who did go out of their way to befriend and give nurturing, they, the carers, like every one else could have turned the other way and not have paid to them a blind bit of notice. So, I say thank you to all of you out there, inclusive of ChrisPer’s parents, who in the past opened up their homes to vulnerable children. I would have loved by a loving family to have been adopted/fostered, but sadly, for me that never happened. Excepting for a short-term stint, which did not work out? I know for sure that I would have benefited – as too would have others from Goldenbridge. We craved attention and kindness and freedom.
“The number of adopted persons in the United States is estimated to be between six and ten million. The one thing all adopted persons share in common is that somewhere, some time, a decision was made that was intended to be in their “best interest.” Whether infant or older child, domestic or international, stepparent, relative, or “stranger” adoption, that “best interest” was present.” Yep, I would definitely go along with that indeed.
I am left wondering as to what percentage of these families in the last paragraph may have been ‘Baptist’ as ‘family life’ by their religious standards, are so utterly important.
“Did you know that more Aboriginal kids are removed from their families to foster care now than in the stolen times?
No, ChrisPER. I did not know, but to me foster care seems by far a much better option than any institutional setting. At least the children will still have contact/concept with/of the everyday world. There is nothing more frightening than for hordes (200) of children for any inordinate amount of time to be left alone/ unattended by adults and for them to have to depend on children their own age of approximately 6/7years old for comfort and love. It is not natural.
“And of two-parent Aboriginal families, over 60% are Aboriginal women married to a non-Aboriginal partner?”
Yes, I do not find that alarming. They more than likely married outside their own culture because they either felt ashamed of it, or because of having in the past been denied their Aborigine roots. Their parents were in all probability torn and wrenched away from their parents. All in the name of ethnic cleansing! To draw an analogy! There is an Irish historical saying, To Hell or To Connaught. Cruachan, in an Irish lyric says, “We fled for our lives on a winter’s eve, Cold but unheeded, we left with speed. The roundheads they had come this night, our gallant people? But blood in sight. If we were to barter for our lives. We would wind up dead. This is the land where I was born and bred, Am I a coward to avoid being dead? These are the words of our ancestors, Long ago, in a time of fear. They say “what giveth returns time thee” Now in this age, we will wait and see. Condemn what you will in this war of worlds, Shout if you want amid peaceful slurs. But how do you stop a charging bull, with horns of steel and a desire to cull?”
“Didn’t mean to gush, it was all Cris’s fault, – he started”
Aye, Richard, you can (with absolutely no bother at all) twist the taps around with your plumping gadgets to stop all the baptismal water from gushing out. Yes, and ChrisPer may have at first turned on the gushing taps, but you twisted them on even more. Now look what you have both made me do – ramble on and on and on, that I am over-flowing and surrounded by puddles. Who is going to do the mopping up? Eh, tell me, please.
Never mind. Let ’em dry on their own, in respect.