That Pesky Enlightenment Thing
And then there’s more Bunting (more Bunting? more Bunting?!) on the – well, on some ridiculous brainworm she has that she thinks is called ‘the Enlightenment’.
I need some help. I’ve been getting increasingly disturbed at the way in which the Enlightenment gets invoked by the self styled ‘hard liberals’ as if it amounts to their tablets of stone. Something didn’t seem to be adding up to me when they waxed lyrical about the Enlightenment legacy of rationality, secularism, belief in progress, the rule of law and the basis of all we know and love in western democracy and individual human rights.
Invoked? Self-styled? Hard liberals? Tablets? Of stone? Waxed lyrical? Belief in progress? All we know and love? Do you think she packed enough silly sarky jeer-words into that one paragraph? Can you tell that she thinks the Enlightenment is probably a load of old kack?
Then I began bumping into the subject with Muslim intellectuals who were acutely aware of how this legacy was being used (implicitly or explicitly) against Islam.
Ah – did you. Well that would explain it. So would the ‘implicitly or explicitly’ bit – that pretty much covers all the possibilities, doesn’t it: if the legacy isn’t used (by whom, exactly? who is the subject omitted by this passive construction? this passive-aggressive passive construction?) explicitly, well, you can be damn sure it is being used implicitly – there they go now, don’t let them escape, after them, run! And then of course there are the decisive final two words – ‘against Islam’. Well then – we know something very very very wrong and wicked is afoot. We don’t know what, exactly, but we know it’s bad. Somebody is using something (albeit perhaps implicitly) Against Islam. Nobody must ever use anything Against Islam, because Islam must be beyond reproach or criticism of any kind. Therefore no form of rhetoric is too silly or too manipulative.
These Muslims then argue that the Enlightenment was a process of European definition in the face of the Ottoman Empire; it was shaped in opposition to Islam and hence has an inbuilt anti-Islamic bias. Montesquieu’s ‘Persian Letters’ is a good example of this.
Uh – no it isn’t. Try reading it, Madders.
The bit which most intrigues me is whether a new understanding about rationality emerged in the eighteenth century and if so, how was it then positioned vis a vis religious belief? Since then, we’ve had Freud, Foucault and Nietzsche – all of whom have contributed to the understanding that we are profoundly irrational and that rationality is a social construction – a way of reasoning which we believe to be objective, but never can be. I’m no philosopher – hence the need for help – but I have a few questions: a) why do people think an understanding of rationality which is over 200 years old is useful now?
Oh, gosh, I don’t know! What a good question. Isn’t that odd? People can be so funny – thinking an understanding of anything at all which is over 200 years old (imagine it! in this day and age!) is any good at all, let alone useful now! Well – wait, wait – except religion of course. Except religion, and Catholicism, and Islam, and religion. I don’t mean them of course. But an Enlightenment understanding of rationality which is over 200 years old? Pee-ew! Might as well keep a 200-year-old fish around.
-ing hell, where do you start with that crap? If we’re all “profoundly irrational”, then why should Muslim intellectuals, or anyone else, bother making any kind of argument at all? Might as well just vomit on a canvas and submit that as an opinion.
Although those of an unkind disposition might say that’s exactly what Bunting did …
Well, there are certain other ideas over 200 years old that the woman finds useful – like Islam for instance.
Pretty much every aspect of MB’s screed has already been demolished by the people commenting on it directly, so it seems to need little further excrementation here. It’s nice to see that there are so many readers out there more knowledgeable than the columnists they are forced to read… ;-)
Funny how you have to look so far back in time to try and find an example of how the enlightenment legacy is anti-Islamic.
But, hey, Freud, Foucault and Nietzsche are all famous sounding names who sound like they might undermine rationality if she knew anything about what they said.
It never ceases to amaze me how, when you actually look at what these great thinkers who are constantly cited as undermining rationality or science have actually said, how thin and generally poor their arguments are – Kuhn, Foucault, the whole lot.
More Madderness – and today’s oxymoron is…. “Muslim intellectuals”.
Reading Madders on science or the enlightenment is a bit like listening to the Archbishop of Canterbury on climate change – there might be the occasional pearl of wisdom but one cannot help feeling one’s time would have been better spent paying attention to an expert.
Just to comment on one (!) positive aspect of the article. It is certainly true that Islam doesn’t really need a “Reformation” as such and that Whahabi- style fundamentalism does have a passing resemblance to puritanism.
Having said that the rest of the article is tosh. Note the bit about “understanding of rationality”. First of all she asks whether a “new understanding about rationality emerged in the eighteenth century”. She then projects the idea that there was such a new understanding onto her opponents and asks whether it is useful or not.
I understand what this means- what “new understanding of rationality” is she talking about? She doesn’t explain. As far as I can see Aristotle was perfectly capable of rational reasoning so in what way was rational reasoning understood differently in the 18th century?
Sorry- last paragraph should read “I don’t understand what this means…..”
“Wahabi Islam is precisely Islam’s reformation. “
What ????
Actually I can see what she means on that point. The emphasis on original scripture, the rejection of mystical elements in religion, the rejection of saint veneration, the puritanical enforcement of the morality of scripture are all elements which Wahabi Islam shares with Calvinism. If you throw in the attempt to create a “Godly” state and the ruthless control of church (mosque) over state then the two seem quite similar. As it happened we managed to muddle through this stage to a more secular stage of civilization. However we shouldn’t project that happy circumstance back to the Reformation. The Reformation was about fanaticism and religious extremism (as indeed was the Counter- Reformation- I’m not taking sides here).
It is far too common to blame the Enlightenment for what they did rather than applaud them for what they were trying to do. As opposed to the particularist “faiths” of the time, they actively tried to include everyone in their discussions. They thought of rationality as the universal common ground.
Unfortunately, the reaction began immediately when German Romantics resisted what they saw as French cultural hegemony. Since this sort of intuitive unthinking response allows one to avoid the hard work of study and of defending your ideas in discussion, it has remained popular today.
Rationality hasn’t changed; the “understanding” of it just gets confused in the minds of those who don’t like the hard work it requires.
There is an interesting discussion on the follow-up article [the anti-Madders, as it were, on the Guardian site]. Someone points out that ‘rationality’ actually tended to be interpreted in the C18 as ‘rationalism’, i.e. the idea that the world was best understood through the construction of logically-coherent intellectual systems, notwithstanding any relation to actual experience. Empiricism thus stood in opposition to rationality at this period [I oversimplify vastly]. But it’s an example of a civilised debate one could have about the evolution of concepts [I think the Germans call it Begriffsgeschichte], if the whole thing wasn’t so damn f***ing important, and yielding an inch to the forces of antirationalism will see people strung up for farting in the direction of a house of worship…
Sorry, I’m tired…
As far as I am aware rationalism still has the same meaning, and I find it just as repugnant as did Russell and Moore and so forth.
WMR, thanks, that makes sense. I see my knee is still jerking quite effectivley.
OB / anyone else – did you see the anti-war vets item on BBC Newsnight (last night 29th March)??? WATCH it on line. Those guys are brave & need support…. jeez.
The fact that MB thinks that ‘Persian Letters’ is about Islam rather than about getting round French censorship suggests that her knowledge of that of which she writes is once again close to zero.
How can a paper that publishes her regularly be selected as newspaper of the year?
Am I the only one who has reached the point where it’s physically painful to read one of Bunting’s sentences? Which is to say, wouldn’t it be better to refuse to engage with her idiocy and instead just blankly state that she’s an idiot? And then just move on? I mean, it’s not as if engaging with her achieves anything – all we’re doing is blustering to ourselves about somebody who is simply not worthy of the attention.
I know, I know – a childish, simplistic and illiberal solution. But I don’t think I can take much more of her.
Paul, Chris W – I firmly believe that she’s kept on the books for the ‘Julie Burchill’ factor – the annoyance element actually keeps people coming back. The Guardian Media Group’s move away from just publishing ‘boring’ current affairs analysis and reportage is born out by the fact that both the Groaniad and the Snobserver had by far the most column inches out of all UK nationals devoted to Big sodding Brother this year (17,000 slavering inches I think it said in a recent TLS. Count em). Masses of witless columnists have moved in. Complacent, fuzzy, trendy nonsense think is in, dudes, and that goes for Bunting. I’ll leave the philosophy to people who know what they’re on about, but I would love to see her and Nick Cohen go head to head on some of this crap.
Yes, it is all becoming rather a ‘feeding the beast’ situation, where the best thing would be if one could ignore the inanities, with the unfortunate fact that that would leave the public arena dominated by them holding one back.
It does all make the unstated companion-phrase to the Guardian’s new title, ‘comment is free’, seem all the more ironically apt. Or is that aptly ironic?
Comment Macht Frei ?
Well I could shut up about Bunting I suppose, but that would be asking an awful lot. I do ignore a lot of silly people, but Bunting? Can we afford to ignore Bunting?
I’d like to see her go head to head with Nick Cohen too. That would be good for a laugh.
Perhaps more definitions for “Bunting”
required.
Vb, collective noun.
‘A Bunting of Misconceptions’
etc
bye
“Rationalism is effectively the same as philosophical methodological naturalism.”
I may well have something, or indeed several things, seriously wrong with my brain, but, and with all due respect to GT, the above statement is rubbish. Rationalism is that position to which Locke and Hume and all empiricists took/take such great exception. It is my understanding that methodological naturalism requires confirmatory or disconformatory evidence in terms of concreta, whilst rationalism entails an epistemology wholly dependent upon abstracta. It is an error to conflate philosophical rationalism with everyday rationality or reason.
Yeh, what Mike said. Look it up, GT. Especially look it up before resorting to epithets.
OB – I didn’t mean that we should just ignore Bunting. What I mean is that we blankly state that she’s an idiot, rather than engage with the idiocy. Let her know that we know she’s a cretin – at the same time as letting her know she’s not worth talking to, precisely because she’s a cretin.
You know, basic, lowest common denominator name-calling. Fantastic.
Nick S:
No offense, but I can’t tell if your comment dated 2006-03-30 – 10:17:41 is sincere or sarcastic.
And I prefer “wmr” to be lower case; it stands for “white man reading”.
But White Man Reading should always, always be capitalized!
Very well, I bow to superior discernment of the editor – at least, temporarily.
Oh, horrors – I didn’t mean to mess with your identity.
snerk
G Tingey:
Read this.
Really, G, you didn’t have to thank me twice. And you’re welcome.
wmr – I was indeed being sincere as my knowledge of the subject matter and the speed at which I read the stuff precluded me from applying any brain whatever to the issue at hand, a very real downside to doing all this web stuff instead of loitering in libraries plotting against my stupidity, which is what I used to do with some alacrity.
Also, it should be WMR. If it’s WMD, it’s gotta be WMR.
I hope this helps.
“SO, we need to distinguish between rationalism and scientific rationalism, I presume …..”
Probably. Of course ‘rationalism’ is used colloquially to mean something like scientific rationalism – I think I often use it that way myself, though sometimes I remember not to (but there’s no real substitute – rationalism ought to mean ‘the practice of rationality’ – but it doesn’t, technically, which is most inconvenient).
Got it, Nick, but don’t get carried away.
OB, thanks for the editorial assist in the other comment stream.
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