The Perfectibility of Bunting
Madeleine Bunting. What does she mean by it.
Why is it that a significant section of liberal and left-leaning opinion has signed up with such relish to the “clash of civilisations” argument? Its champions in the media may not phrase it as such, but you can hear the creak of the drawbridge being pulled up: they believe they are surrounded by enemies – Muslims and their dastardly non-Muslim apologists – and must defend to the last man the checklist of universal Enlightenment values that sustain their mission.
That’s quite a high proportion of rhetoric to argument or straightforward factual claim. That bit about not phrasing it as such – what that means is that the argument she’s talking about is not in fact a “clash of civilisations” argument, it’s just that she chooses to call it that because it’s a pejorative. And the silly use of ‘Muslims’ as if a significant section of liberal and left-leaning opinion thinks of all Muslims as enemies. And the remarkable sneer at universal Enlightenment values – yeah, like the ones that allow her to leave the house, and that allow her to have a job, and that encourage the existence of newspapers to have jobs on, and that create large literate audiences for newspaper columns, and that forbid the government or the churches or mosques to censor her columns. Those universal Enlightenment values. What kind of life does Madeleine Bunting think she would have without them, exactly? I’ll tell you what kind of life she would have: she would be married (whether she wanted to be or not), she would have a lot of children (whether she wanted them or not), she would spoil the boys and deprive the girls, she would would go nowhere without permission, she would do nothing but tend her husband and children (boy children especially), she would have no job and no one would know or care anything whatever about her opinion on any subject. The idea that Enlightenment values should be universal simply means thinking that if other women would like to try to live the way Bunting and millions of women all around her live, they ought to be able to. I don’t think that is anything to sneer at.
How do British values look to an African? Perhaps they might see through our illusions quicker than we can, and see the brittle, episodic relationships which constitute many lonely lives; the disconnectedness whereby strangers live together as neighbours, colleagues, even friends and lovers, with little knowledge and less commitment to each other; our preoccupation with things; our ever more desperate dependence on stimulants from alcohol to porn.
Which ‘African’? Which African do you mean, Madders? Do you mean for instance the women of that corner of northern Niger where the men control the food storehouse, even when they have left home during a famine and their wife or wives and children are starving? Hmm? Or the children in Congo and Angola accused of witchcraft and tortured to death by way of exorcism? Do you think they would ‘see through’ our ‘illusions’? How about the children conscripted into armies? How about the children desperate for an education who can’t get one? How about the vast numbers of people dying of Aids? How about the people whose market stalls and homes and lives were smashed in Mugabe’s ‘urban renewal’ program? How about the lucky, lucky people of Darfur? What about their neighbours and their commitments, eh? Do you really – really, seriously – prefer whatever values cause those dire situations to flourish to the ones around you? Really?
So an elite squabbles about Islam’s take on gay rights and gender equality in a charade of moralistic grandstanding.
A charade of moralistic grandstanding – unlike, for instance, speculating on how British values would look to ‘an African’. That’s not moralistic grandstanding at all, while thinking women and gays should have rights everywhere in the world and not just in our own privileged section of it – that’s mere showing off.
Here is a quick list of some of the Enlightenment legacy that we need to keep working on: the relationship of reason to emotion and faith (of all kinds, not just religious, most particularly our faith in humanity); a broader account of human nature beyond the bankrupted belief in the perfectibility of man; more meanings of freedom than the freedom to shop…
The perfectibility of man? Is there a liberal in the universe, whether muscular or flabby, who believes in that? I’ve certainly never met one. (It’s also amusing that that jibe follows immediately on the plea for faith in humanity. Well which is it, Cookie?) And more meanings of freedom than the freedom to shop – oh, the hell with it, that’s too stupid even to bother contradicting.
Bunting could do with some enlightenment herself.
Shades of Halasz! Still, she’s too clear for her own good. She needs to tart it up with lots turgid pomo gibberish to complete the package. Then, and only then, will I marry her!
Ophelia
That must have been so much fun.
I would never have read Bunting’s drivel if not for you, so I should cross. But since you follow up by giving her the drubbing she so richly deserves, I forgive.
:-)
G
For some reason, there is a strong correlation between seeing the name “Bunting” and a sudden surge of blood pressure on my part…
Anyway, your savaging of that column seems well-deserved. Nice to know incidentally that “squabbles” over such minor issues as women and gay rights are “elite”.
But I find it supremely ironic that in her column Bunting refers to a book by Frank Furedi (anything but a muddle-headed thinker AFAIK) which appears to analyze certain rather putrid-smelling political phenomena (cultural self-doubt especially) which Bunting promptly goes on to exemplify more incisively than any parody could. Though Bunting’s version sounds more like cultural self-pity (and an extremely snobbish “Oooh! Look how the noble natives are so blissfully unburdened with material possessions!” kind of it at that) than cultural self-doubt.
Sorry about causing people to read Bunting when they wouldn’t have otherwise. But blame Don and Nick! They pointed it out.
And not only ‘Oooh! Look how the noble natives are so blissfully unburdened with material possessions!’ but also ‘Oooh! Look how the noble natives are so blissfully unburdened with pesky old universal Enlightenment values!’
Unlike posters on this blog, the Jungian analyst Andrew Samuels (Professor of Analytical Psychology at the University of Essex) thinks that Bunting didn’t go far enough! In a letter in today’s (13 Sept) Guardian he says:
>Perhaps Madeleine Bunting’s insightful and important article did not go far enough. Full engagement and dialogue with an “other” benefits the self. As the Qur’anic principle of Ta’Aruf has it, all kinds of difference – gender, national, religious – have the hidden potential to enable people to get to know one another, and hence themselves, better. It is an example of the general principle that what benefits a minority in any given situation may also benefit the majority.< While I’m sure we’re all impressed by Samuels’ knowledge of “Ta’Aruf”, if he thinks that secular societies can engage in meaningful dialogue with fundamentalist Muslims he ought to check out websites like http://www.islamonline.net, set up by “a committee of the major scholars throughout the Islamic world, headed by Dr. Yusuf Qardawi [aka Qaradawi]”, the role of which “is to ensure that nothing on this site violates the fixed principles of Islamic law (Shar’ia).” (Yes, it’s that man Qaradawi again.)
Incidentally, wouldn’t it be refreshing if academics like Samuels could discuss such issues without once referring to the “other”.
I have not come across MB before – tho I do read the Guardian fairly regularly. What we need to know is whether she is someone with a consistent agenda (in which case she sholud be answered) or just another columnist with the “what the hell am I going to write tomorrow?” problem.
Has anyone tried corresponding with Bunty at the given email address ? Would be interested to hear her responses to OB’s challenges…
Karl. Dude. “Then, and only then, will I marry her!” Doesn’t she have any choice here ??? Outrageous!
Ken – she has an agenda all right. Here’s a nice one:
“Honour and martyrdom – Suicide bombing isn’t as new or alien as westerners imagine”
(excerpt)
“These are concepts which are very difficult for westerners living largely comfortable lives to grasp. Honour is meaningless to us; we have replaced it with a preoccupation with status and self-fulfilment. We dimly grasp self-sacrifice but only apply the concept to our raising of children. Meanwhile, nothing can trump our dedication to the good life of consumer capitalism, and certainly not any system of abstract beliefs. Not having experienced the desperation of oppression, we have little purchase on the extremism it might engender. Meanwhile, we have medicalised rather than politicised the condition of hating the world and longing for death. The gulf in understanding yawns wide.”
Madeleine Bunting Saturday May 14, 2005 The Guardian
http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1483797,00.html
OB – Francis Wheen and Nick Cohen have both recently had a serious go at this sort of lunacy – any new tomes on the horizon??
Sorry to go on, but I have just seen a superb picture of England cricketer Andrew Flintoff, looking, frankly, a bit shit-faced after the legendary vicory in the Ashes. Cricket, although obviously an elitist, competetive and oppressive colonial expression of cultural dominance, lives on in the (one assumes) ‘false’ consciousness of so many ‘Other’ muslem states, such as Pakistan. I do so really hope Madders can also lift the veil on these contradictions soon. Really, I can’t wait…
What really gets me here is the snobbery involved. The “muscular liberals”, it seems, just don’t *understand* the oppression faced by these people and we don’t have the humility to *understand* their culture.
Only an elite would bother arguing about trivia like human rights and would fail to *understand* the spiritual benefits of being hanged for freely choosing one’s religion, being gay etc.
Bunting’s problem is that she is confused. She wants to be liberal but doesn’t really know (or want to know) what is going on. She then tries to substitute for her own lack of understanding by claiming that “muscular liberals” are being too harsh on people from other cultures
“Karl. Dude. ‘Then, and only then, will I marry her!’ Doesn’t she have any choice here ???”
Dude. Not when I set my sights on her she doesn’t.
And when I’m in charge of her, if she ever leaves the house unchaperoned or without wearing her burqa, there’s gonna be hell to pay!
Karl, dontcha think she may find that unethical, as it would concern her own rather than other people’s business ? I bet she knows some serious HR lawyers too … muscular, even…
There is a good discussion of Andrew Samuels’ eccentric views here:
http://jameshamilton.typepad.com/james_hamilton/2004/05/professor_andre.html
There’s something else interesting about Jungian guy’s comment –
“Perhaps Madeleine Bunting’s insightful and important article did not go far enough. Full engagement and dialogue with an “other” benefits the self. As the Qur’anic principle of Ta’Aruf has it, all kinds of difference – gender, national, religious – have the hidden potential to enable people to get to know one another, and hence themselves, better.”
But “sexual segregation” (as we’ve lately been admonished to call it) rules out any possibility of “full engagement and dialogue” with others whose difference is a matter of gender. So in our keen efforts to take part in full engagement and dialogue with others who believe in and practice sexual segregation, we find ourselves running straight into a brick wall of incompatibility and impossibility. So Jungian guy’s formula turns out to be pious sentimental bullshit. What a surprise.
And Bunting does have an agenda, or at least a consistent pattern of saying silly things. She’s kind of a byword for it.
I picked another fight with her just last month here. And there were letters to the Guardian picking fights with the same column here.
She’s as woolly as a whole consignment of mittens.
Tomes, Nick? You mean from Wheen and Cohen? Or from Benson and Stangroom.
I’ve started a little thing on euphemisms and obfuscation. It’s in the database, but JS has to do something to it to make it show up on the front page. I think he’s planning to do that something one of these days, but I don’t know when.
Bob-B
Excellent link. Hamilton certainly seems to have Samuels’ number.
G – I can’t help but think that yr email’s not going to achieve much beyond making you feel better.
And, in what way is Marxism a religion?
Bob-B, thanks for the link to James Hamilton’s blog. He quotes Andrew Samuels saying at a conference in 2003:
>Why is it so difficult to understand that, even if it feels foreign, and requires moral imagination (the necessary counterpart to original morality) the terrorists are convinced they are engaged in a form of social spirituality, whether we accept it or not?< No, Andrew, it isn’t difficult to understand that terrorists like the London bombers are filled with a conviction of their spiritual righteousness. (Though the term “social spirituality” makes it seem that blowing people up in the cause of the true path is akin to social work.) It’s a bit off-subject, but I note that Samuels engages in the kind of self-important fantasizing characteristic of analysts’ proposing their profession be at the centre of social planning: >Good enough leadership and the management of failure are closely linked. This has led me to propose setting up a National Failure Enquiry that would continually monitor why political initiatives have not worked out as planned. The NFE could be one of a number of new institutions utilising psychotherapy thinking in society…< So would the problem with failed political initiatives be that too many people’s ids had been given free rein, or that their shadow side had taken control? And who would monitor the NFE, which would undoubtedly be another example of a political initiative that did not work out as planned? The mind boggles at the thought of which analysts would be members of the NFE. Susie Orbach chairing the committee on the failure of the latest government obesity campaign? Andrew Samuels pontificating on the failure of secular society to engage with the Islamic “other”?
Ah, I see. I prefer “consistent pattern of saying silly things” to “agenda”
I have been thinking of bringing back “silly”, “dopey” and “really dumb” as critical expressions. They can be used instead of “politically correct”, “neocon”, “extreme radical”, “extreme right-wing” and so on.
They can be developed as terms of qualitative criticism rather than the others I have mentioned, which so often mean “she/he belongs to the other tribe and I don’t like what she/he says”.
Chris Williams – actually, Ken MacLeod has recently been arguing that Marxism _is_ a religion on his blog (http://kenmacleod.blogspot.com, July 13 entry). Not sure whether I agree, but the argument seems fascinating (I borrowed Monod from the library because I want to get to the bottom of this).
We all had this argument (Marxism as a religion) the other day. I still think it shares many (admittedly not all, in that it denies a deity) of the woolly-headed, mystical ways of thinking characteristic of religions-saints, sinners, revelation, sacred text, group think/orthodoxy, and belief in a paradise. Most here disagreed :)
Well, Brian, the only thing I disagree with is conflating ‘it shares many (admittedly not all, in that it denies a deity) of the woolly-headed, mystical ways of thinking characteristic of religions’ with ‘religion’ full stop. There is a large difference between saying ‘X has many of the characteristics of religion’ and saying ‘X is a religion’. So in fact I didn’t disagree with your qualified statement, I disagreed only with the qualification-free version. I think I said that three or four times, too…
Wasn’t it Bertie Russell who did the whole Marxism=Christianity thing, about 80 years ago? Had a whole chart showing the “uncanny” correspondences and everything.
(By the way, when you hear the variation “Bolshevism is a religion,” you can be fairly sure you’re listening to an anti-Semite. Google it and see.)
You did say that, Olivia. :)
My only stubborness is if it quacks like a religion, walks like a religion, inspires the murder of millions like a religion, it effectively IS a religion. But, you have the more precise definition, of course, although the arcane dialectics of history or whatever the Marxists are always talking about sound pretty superstitious to me. :)
Ah, Merlijn clarifies things. I was thinking more along the old State Communist societies of Eastern Europe, with their sacred parading of the ICBMs, and the icons everywhere of the glorious leader. Marx was certainly an interesting, perceptive thinker-and Marxist thought can provide insights.
Enough from me on this topic! :)
Surely the example of the People’s Republic of China, where Marxism is now used to justify capitalism, is conclusive proof that [if it was once, and might still elsewhere be, a rational form of enquiry] Marxism there at least has taken on the essential pointlessness and infinite malleability of a first-rate religious creed…
OB
“I picked another fight with her just last month here. And there were letters to the Guardian picking fights with the same column here.”
Indeed; I saw both – what I was hoping for (if that’s the right word) was some kind of open dialogue confonting Madwoman B with the very salient points raised above in objection to her po-faxced sixth-form treatease’ on hating being middle classed and white.
“She’s as woolly as a whole consignment of mittens.”
Mammoths, surely.
“Tomes, Nick? You mean from Wheen and Cohen? Or from Benson and Stangroom.”
The latter – there is surely a lexicion to be drawn of alternate meanings for words like freedom, rights, respect, etc. depending on what side of the fuzzy line people stand…
Ken says:
“I have been thinking of bringing back “silly”, “dopey” and “really dumb” as critical expressions. They can be used instead of “politically correct”, “neocon”, “extreme radical”, “extreme right-wing” and so on.”
See ?
Hmm . . . by most of the criteria discussed here, nationalism also qualifies as religion if Marxism does. This is clearly silly, thus we need to make careful distinctions between saying that something is like a religion in many of its manifestations, and that something is a religion.
Back to Bunting – she’s a fool, isn’t she. But what’s the best way to point this out to her?
Chris – “But what’s the best way to point this out to her?”
Perhaps a year in Washington, Afghanistan, Somalia and Paris, sponsored by her employers, the Guardian Media Group. Comparative study…
Sorry – more Buntism:
Comment Madeleine Bunting
Monday May 9, 2005 The Guardian
“Rags seldom turn to riches –
Inequality has not been reduced and the government has yet to face up to dismantling Thatcher’s legacy “
Here final words… “Reducing inequality and increasing equality of opportunity are strategies of transformation. Blair has no more elections to fight and nothing left to lose – he is in the last-chance saloon – in providing a more fitting political epitaph for a progressive government..”
Now excuse me.. is she talking universal inequality here ? That’s just the sort of nasty enlightenment idea many hardworking imams find offensive…
universal inequality – meant equality
Doh ! Too much Buntistani hash.
Nick,
“there is surely a lexicion to be drawn of alternate meanings for words like freedom, rights, respect, etc. depending on what side of the fuzzy line people stand…”
You bet! And I’ve started the lexicon – it has an entry for ‘respect’ already. It’s there, but JS has to do something to it to make it show up. I guess he hasn’t had time to do whatever it is.
“thus we need to make careful distinctions between saying that something is like a religion in many of its manifestations, and that something is a religion.”
Well that’s certainly what I think, and keep trying to argue. Especially given the inveterate fondness of theists for saying (triumphantly, smugly) that atheism is a religion.
Maybe I’ll rename B&W ‘Careful Distinctions’.
On the subject of enriching the language, how would one define ‘Bunting’ as a verb?
Bunting: Castigating one’s own society while simultaneously excusing all vices, crimes, or atrocities committed by any society perceived as opposed to one’s own society. The more remote, exotic, or “Other” an opposing society is, the more innocent it is. The more victimized the Other has been by one’s own society, the more righteous it is.
(I believe good ol’ Bertie Russell–again!–called this last point “the superior virtue of the oppressed” and considered it a fallacy.)
Bunting: Grandstanding whilst remaining politically appropriate.
I’m hardly the expert (and we have dealt with definitions of religion massively in past posts) but it seems to me that no matter how like a religion Marxism can get, it does lack something to qualify as the full-fledged real deal.
“Bunting” does indeed make an excellent verb. Other than what OB quoted, I was struck by “Scruples about the unsavoury rightwing company they are now uncomfortably lodged with – such as the American neocons – have been easily squashed.” Who says they’ve been squashed at all and who says it was easy? Hitchens, one of the most frequent denizens of that particular dock, has been pretty eloquent about it. Where the hell are her lot’s scruples about cosying up to anything that happens to be anti-American, regardless of its attitudes to anyone’s individual rights. Say what you like about America, but it doesn’t, to the best of my knowledge, yet have a law in place to condemn people to death if they stop being American.
Maybe she needs to have it brought home to her that if Islam gets the respect she’s demanding for it, she may really end up with no choice but to marry Karl (if he’ll have her by then).
“..no choice but to marry Karl (if he’ll have her by then).”
I have staked first claim, and had it agreed in court yesterday afternoon. Karl. The best man has won. Sorry.
Stewart
apologies for stupid infidel fingers. I, of course, posted the last with regard to Karl, who better desist immediately in coveting my bride to be, or else.
Apology accepted (and you’ll be relieved to see I haven’t tried to even the score by signing this post “Nick S”). The principle is in any case unaffected. The point was that if Islam were to be given sufficient respect, she not only would have no say of her own about which of you to marry, she also wouldn’t be free to write in a newspaper on such topics. Which state in which Islam rules permits publication of a paper that is in any way, shape or form like the Guardian?
“I, of course, posted the last with regard to Karl, who better desist immediately in coveting my bride to be, or else.”
This sounds like a matter for the sharia court. Too bad those uppity women shut down the one in Ontario. Now we gotta get our butts all the way over to Egypt or Saudia Arabia to have this matter decided properly.
So how, precisely, does that work? I understand how justice is always served when the case is a man against a woman. The man wins because his word has twice the weight of the woman’s. What do they do when it’s a man against a man, measure and compare testosterone levels? If you can demonstrate there’s something effeminate about your opponent, is that automatic victory? Obviously, if you can prove he’s gay, you not only win, but they kill him into the bargain…
Anyone game to come up with a treatment for the pilot of a new sitcom about sharia law school? “The Fatwa Chase”?
Well obviously, Stewart, manliness is determined very precisely by penis length and sperm count. After all, we’re not living in some credulous, superstitious Dark Ages.
… meaning perjury in a sharia court is mainly limited to lying about… (just like everywhere else)
Karl – we could use eBay.
Nick: Sir, your suggestion that we bid on my betrothed is barbaric. Do you think we still live in the Middle Ages? Besides, I’ve already paid her father the agreed-upon bride-price of forty-seven Greyfaced Dartmoor sheep. She’s mine!