Not Contempt but Outrage
Norm has a post on religion and Hitchens and the vexed subject of ‘contempt for religious believers and what they believe’ that I have – however reluctantly! however ashen with misgivings, trembling with nerves, tottering with distress, quaking with anxiety, keening with regret – disagreed with him about in the past.
It might be suggested on Hitch’s behalf that, whether it meets such needs or not, because religious belief isn’t substantively true, all it merits is contempt from atheists and humanists; and its adherents, likewise, only deserve disrespect in one or another mode. But that religion isn’t true cannot be a sufficient reason for this; it is quite standard in democratic and pluralist societies to disagree in a tolerant and non-contemptuous way with beliefs and opinions we hold, or even sometimes know, to be false.
Yes – up to a point. Or maybe not so much up to a point, as depending on how you define contempt. In fact that’s what I disagreed about last time I disagreed – I didn’t, and still don’t, think that what Polly Toynbee expressed was contempt. What she expressed was something more like outrage, and it was directed primarily at the Vatican, the news media’s sycophantic coverage of the Vatican, and Blair’s knee-bending to the Vatican. Now, given the Vatican’s murderous condom policy, I think that outrage is highly appropriate.
But this time it’s a fair cop. Hitchens does express contempt – and – I find what he says bracing and welcome in contrast to the endless diet of whining and reproof directed at atheists – but at the same time, I can see what Norm means. I’m not sure I agree with it – because of that endless diet – but I can see what he means.
At the same time, it is a straightforward empirical fact that countless numbers of people – and I use ‘countless’ here advisedly and literally, not just loosely to convey the sense of very many – have been moved by their religion to do good in the world, to behave well…Think of a person who has illusions about the character of someone he loves – his mother, his children – and has those illusions because he loves them and so is unable to face certain unwelcome truths about them. That he has such illusions may certainly end by doing him, or them, harm. But so may it lead him to do a lot of good things he otherwise might not do.
True. I think that is one way – one of the few ways – religion can work in a kindly as opposed to brutal way. I think the analogy is more literal than Norm means it in this argument – I think many people do think of God that way, and that that thought is what inspires them to do good things. I think that God serves as a sort of Platonic idea of what a completely good, kind, loving, benevolent, compassionate being ought to be (it may be Mary or Jesus instead, because God-God is a god of wrath). Once you have that idea – of an entity that is all about kindness and goodness – then you want to please it by being kind yourself, and not pain it by being cruel. That’s a crude way of putting it, but I think that is how it works. Unfortunately not nearly often enough – unfortunately all too often it is the punitive, vengeful aspects that loom largest – but sometimes.
But that’s only one aspect of the problem. There are others that have to do with secularism, democracy, rational discussion, education, the media – with the extent to which ‘democratic and pluralist societies’ can survive in a world of theocracies. But that’s a large subject, and I have to go. My colleague is briefly in town, and if he doesn’t get lost, we’re supposed to meet up for a chat. I’ll tell him you said hello.
As you might guess from my previous comments, I am with Geras on this. I take heart from the fact that he calls Hitchens on it. I would prefer to believe it was just a momentary lapse. I think that George W. Bush has taken Hitchens and lots of other people (including Geras) for a ride. That’s excusable; anyone can be had by a good conman. But I really don’t want to think the guy is a bigot.
There is something extremely distasteful about this argument that religion, whilst, strictly speaking false, can lead people to do good things, is a unifying force in society etc.
It is religion as social control. The idea that we should keep the masses ignorant and malleable, that they can’t be trusted to do good things without the threat of no afterlife or burning in hell.
I find this line intriguing:
“it is quite standard in democratic and pluralist societies to disagree in a tolerant and non-contemptuous way with beliefs and opinions we hold, or even sometimes know, to be false.”
It seems to me that he is deliberately confusing political beliefs and opinions (which, strictly speaking, cannot be true or false) and important factual claims. Here’s one, ‘there was no Holocaust, it was made up by the Jews to hide their attempt to take over the world’, are we tolerant and non-contemptuous of this belief?
Exactly what false beliefs are we tolerant of in our society (other than religion)? If someone tells me they believe in crystal healing, or that MMR causes autism, or any number of false truth claims I neither tolerate nor am non-contemptuous of them. I don’t persecute people for holding those beliefs, I’m not even rude and offensive (unlike Hitchens), but I am certainly not going to say ‘ooh, well I disagree with you about whether a race of giant lizards controls the British government, but I totally respect your point of view’.
http://emeraldbile.blogspot.com/ has a typically off beat (and expletive filled) take on the issue (currently 2nd entry down on the page). Enjoy.
Warning the blogg will not be everyone’s cup of tea.
Ophelia
Probably because you’re in a rush, you forgot your own answer to the point you deal with here. The “God” who asks you to be nice can just as easily, in the next breath, ask you to go and slaughter your next door neighbour (the Old Testament God seems to have liked doing this quite a lot). If you rely on an external agency rather than your own moral sense for such advice you’re laying yourself open to this sort of thing aren’t you?
Enjoy your reunion with JS.
Geras says,
“But I have read now about hundreds of people impelled by their religious faith to acts of great and courageous humanity, and we who have never done that owe them respect and more than respect, we owe them the celebration of what they did; for such people are the glory of humankind.”
The suicide bomber is inspired to “courageous acts” by exactly the same phenemenon – and those acts are celebrated in certain quarters for the very reasons Geras cites.
Ultimately – no matter how worthy the cause – we have to see all religion-inspired action as essentially selfish because it is done in the hope of infinite personal reward.
To call such people “the glory of mankind” is ridiculous. It is the people who sacrifice themselves without hope of eternal post-death bliss that deserve such praise.
On Tuesday night, on BBC Northern Ireland I watched a program about a split in a small evangelical church in Belfast. The main pastor was effectively locked out of the chapel by an interesting clique, after a row about the distribution inside the chapel of a periodical called “Rome Watch”, which most people think incites hatred of Catholics. Not that the clique thinks like that, no sirree. They hate Romanism but not Romanists. How could you think such terrible things of the deacon, who was sentenced to 35 years in prison for his part in the murder of 3 Catholics from a pop band. The lead singer was shot 22 times in the face. The deacon’s brother was killed by the bomb he was carrying. But hey! He’s been born again so his heart must be pure now.
Or how about the new main pastor? He may have spent some time in prison for possession of hand grenades obtained from a Protestant terrorist organization. He’s been born again too. And how dare you have bad thoughts about him, just because the person who ordained him (in prison) was serving time for murdering a Catholic.
Although the Troubles are about more than doctrinal quibbles.
The suicide bomber is inspired to “courageous acts”.
David
I must assume you are using scare quotes as oppsed to citation quotes here as Norm said “acts of great and courageous humanity”, which would not seem to include suicide (or indeed homicide) bombers. Your wider point is of course absolutely correct.
PM, I think there’s a little nuance there. Norm did say ‘disagree in a tolerant and non-contemptuous way.’ He didn’t say tolerate and not disagree – but rather disagree in a tolerant way, which I take to mean without the use of words like ‘repulsive’ that Hitchens uses. I don’t entirely agree with him even on that, as I’ve said – but he’s not in that quotation advocating non-disagreement.
Chris Wh, Yeah – I didn’t forget, just didn’t have time. Reunion with JS was fun. He’s the only person I know who can do six months’ worth of talking in two hours.
Can’t a poor half-drunk guy, in a dual interview with his disliked brother, toss of a line like “I can’t stand anyone who believes in God, who invokes the divinity or who is a person of faith. I mean that to me is a horrible repulsive thing.” without being brought to task for trying to motivate the whole atheist world? This wasn’t in some prepared speech at the Vatican, it was said during an interview with several funny and obnoxious moments, and said, quite possibly, to get a rise out of his brother. Poor Hitchens, though I’d guess there’s a chance he is secretly pleased.
That said, I guess I agree with the statement. I do hide it where I can, out of politeness, but at the core, I do alternately pity and despise strong proponents of faith. It’s one thing to be fooled, tricked, and deluded, especially by one’s parents, but quite another to then try to inflict that upon others. Am I supposed to approve of childishness in people who are not children?
The one part that bothered me aboue Norm’s piece was this: he claimed that religion did not have a monopoly on harm, that other ‘intolerant beliefs’ caused just as much trouble, but then he goes on to extol the virtues of the godly, without recognizing that they hold no monopoly on that, either. If religion does not deserve censure for the acts committed in its name, it certainly does not deserve praise for the goodness displayed. Good, sensible, non-cruel people would probably be that way without religion. And really, I would prefer someone who doesn’t kill me because they think it is inherently wrong to kill people than someone who doesn’t because they fear infinite fictional fire.
“because they think it is inherently wrong to kill people than someone who doesn’t because they fear infinite fictional fire”
Definitely. (As James Mill pointed out, for instance, at least according to JSM’s autobiography – and he can’t have been the only one.) But I think some religious people have different – more disinterested – kinds of motivation. That it has something (something rather vague and muddled, to be sure) to do with what I was trying to get at – an idea of goodness that is personified and thus bound up with ideas of love and loyalty – which make it more…compelling? Inspiring? Something along those lines.
But of course that’s only a good thing when the idea of good is the right kind of idea of good – which it definitely isn’t always. Just for one thing – people tend to think Christianity has always been opposed to cruelty, and has always put it first – but neither is true.
“PM, I think there’s a little nuance there. Norm did say ‘disagree in a tolerant and non-contemptuous way.’ He didn’t say tolerate and not disagree – but rather disagree in a tolerant way, which I take to mean without the use of words like ‘repulsive’ that Hitchens uses. I don’t entirely agree with him even on that, as I’ve said – but he’s not in that quotation advocating non-disagreement.”
He says “disagree in a tolerant and non-contemptuous way with beliefs and opinions we…know, to be false”. Note that he is talking about being tolerant and non-contemptuous of the -beliefs and opinions-, not those that hold those opinions.
I simply refuse to accept that I must be tolerant and non-contemptuous of ridiculous beliefs when I disagree with them. Perhaps I oughtn’t to be intolerant and contemptuous to those who hold those beliefs, but the beliefs themselves?!?
It just sounds like another one of these, lets all just be friends, I won’t point out how ridiculous and intellectualluy bankrupt theism is if you don’t burn me for heresy.
Hmm. I think we have to get down in the mud and do some semantic wrestling here. Some, if Judith Halberstam will forgive us, close reading.
“it is quite standard in democratic and pluralist societies to disagree in a tolerant and non-contemptuous way with beliefs and opinions we hold, or even sometimes know, to be false.”
You can’t actually literally disagree with beliefs and opinions themselves – you can only disagree with people. So I take that clause to be shorthand for disagreeing with people about beliefs and opinions that we hold to be etc.
Mind you – as I’ve said – I still don’t agree – I’m merely doing my best to see his point. I still think we sometimes have to disagree harshly or rudely – especially right now when the other side has so much wind in its sails. But I’m trying to be sure we’re arguing with what he really said. I think there is a difference between disagreeing in a tolerant way with beliefs, and tolerating the beliefs themselves.
I might have to ask Norm for clarification!
“You can’t actually literally disagree with beliefs and opinions themselves – you can only disagree with people.”
Ooh, slippery rhetorical move. ‘I disagree with racism’, ‘no you don’t, you simply disagree with people being racist, you can’t disagree with an abstract noun’. Well I can and do disagree with abstract nouns. If you think you can’t, then that explains our difference of opinion.
These sorts of disagreements (about what someone else said) often seem to turn on these sorts of semantic differences.
“I might have to ask Norm for clarification!”
Trying to undermine the autonomy of the text, tsk tsk…
Yeah – true. I’m sure I often do say ‘I disagree with [abstract noun].’ But in trying to decide what Norm did mean, I found myself thinking maybe that was shorthand. I’m not sure though!
I know, I know…intentional fallacy. What does it matter what Norm meant. Quite right.
Mark: “The one part that bothered me aboue Norm’s piece was this: he claimed that religion did not have a monopoly on harm, that other ‘intolerant beliefs’ caused just as much trouble, but then he goes on to extol the virtues of the godly, without recognizing that they hold no monopoly on that, either.”
Me: “I have read now about hundreds of people impelled by their religious faith to acts of great and courageous humanity, and we who have never done that owe them respect and more than respect, we owe them the celebration of what they did; for such people are the glory of humankind.
“The religious, I will end by saying, do not for their part have any monopoly here, either. That is the way the world is, a bit complicated.”