More Dover
It’s hard to tear oneself away from The Panda’s Thumb today. They are having one hell of a party over there. And writing one great post after another while they’re at it.
One on our friend Steve Fuller for example.
Professor of Sociology Steven Fuller may not know much about the history or content of science (see his recent confusion — just like Linus Pauling’s! — between protein and DNA at Micheal Berube’s blog) but he is good the kind of jargoneering that the Discovery Institute and its allies use to confuse the public about science…Fuller proved to be quite compliant generally, but Judge Jones seems not to to have heard his pleas to institute in Dover a kind of affirmative action program for ID. Instead, it was the repeated acknowledgement that Intelligent Design is, in fact, creationism, that Judge Jones took away as the salient point of Fuller’s testimony…What the TMLC failed to appreciate when they booked Fuller as a witness was that he doesn’t believe in any kind of science. In the pomo view, science is all about social relationships and power dynamics. Whatever privileged role science has in society is fraudulantly obtained. Scientific authority is a sham…Calling an expert witness who doesn’t believe in science to a trial about an idea’s scientific status was probably a mistake. Certainly, Steven Fuller wins second place (behind Michael Behe) in the race for the title of “Best Defense Witness for the Prosecution.”
Pretty funny! Also satisfying – especially after the display of condescension mixed with confusion he gave at Michael’s.
And Tim Sandefur does a great one on the judge’s reasoning, full of interesting stuff.
In summary, the disclaimer singles out the theory of evolution for special treatment, misrepresents its status in the scientific community, presents students with a religious alternative masquerading as a scientific theory, directs them to consult a creationist text as though it were a science resource, and instructs students to forego scientific inquiry in the public school classroom and instead to seek out religious instruction elsewhere. Furthermore…introducing ID necessarily invites religion into the science classroom as it sets up what will be perceived by students as a “God-friendly” science, the one that explicitly mentions an intelligent designer, and that the “other science,” evolution, takes no position on religion…. [A] false duality is produced: It “tells students…quite explicitly, choose God on the side of intelligent design or choose atheism on the side of science.” Introducing such a religious conflict into the classroom…forces students to “choose between God and science,” not a choice that schools should be forcing on them.
This could turn into something of an education in science and epistemology for a lot of people.
Avoiding magical explanations is “a ‘ground rule’ of science,” which some call “‘methodological naturalism,’ and is sometimes known as the scientific method.” (at 65). This approach is not arbitrary. It is based on the demands of epistemology as well as the proven superiority of this approach in producing usable results. “[O]nce you attribute a cause to an untestable supernatural force, a proposition that cannot be disproven, there is no reason to continue seeking natural explanations as we have our answer.” (at 66). ID proponents, Judge Jones notes, (and we might mention Beckwith by name here) are trying “to change the ground rules of science to allow supernatural causation of the natural world” to factor into the analysis. (at 67) But this approach would “embrace astrology,” (at 68), among other things. And, in any case, the fact that ID proponents seek “to ‘defeat scientific materialism,’” and “‘replace materialistic explanations with the theistic understanding that nature and human beings are created by God,’” (at 68) demonstrates that ID at least cannot qualify as science, whatever “merit” it might have (at 65). Since the current “essential ground rules…limit science to testable, natural explanations,” only changing those rules would allow ID to qualify as science. But “[s]cience cannot be defined differently.” (at 70).
Oh why not. Please? Pleasepleaseplease? Can’t we define science differently just a little bit just for this one time just for awhile if I’m really really good? Can’t we just pretend a little tiny bit that an untestable supernatural force is a good answer can’t we please please?
The judge is a Republican. Which doesn’t surprise me in the slightest. This has nothing (inherently) to do with left and right, it’s an epistemic issue. Making evidential questions into political ones is a mug’s game.
Words fail me.
I had not expected so clear and just an outcome from the court system.
Well done that American court!
The really great part of it is that he went so much further than he had to if he were just grudgingly reaching the only decision the evidence permitted. That he made a point of saying what a needless waste of time and money it had been and that he went into so much detail not necessarily required by the case at hand, expressly in order to do the job in advance for any similar cases that come up. It’s hard to conceive of any way in which the whole ID movement could be stepped on more strongly and bindingly, even though he insisted on the even-handedness of refusing to rule on ID itself, limiting the ruling to whether it was science and its constitutionality as far as the classroom goes. Any word from Pat Robertson yet, or did the heavenly server crash from the overload?
That was really mean of me. The man is out there doing good works as we speak. Do a google news search and what you get is a group he founded suing to prevent emergency contraception in Illinois. Real Darwinism at work…
A pity there is no afterlife, otherwise the spirits of Paine, Jefferson, and others would be feeling quite pleased with themselves, I think.
Merry Xmas, Y’all.
This is very Irving/Lipstadt, isn’t it?
mmmmmm……
Merry Christmas everyone – peace and goodwill to y’all.
Heard about it on Newsnight (BBC UK) late last night, and am still in a very pleasant state of shock !
Happy xmas people
N
I think this is one of my favourite bits and I haven’t seen anyone quote it on B&W yet (apologies for inadvertent duplication, if I’m wrong). Coming from someone who apparently does go to church occasonally, it’s impressive. He doesn’t actually rebut biblical testimony of god revealing himself, but he does quote the ID witnesses as admitting no one has ever seen their designer. Such a breath of fresh air – he’s not being asked to rule on faith itself, and he’s correctly avoiding doing that, but he’s making it so clear that faith cannot be anything but personal, because it is belief devoid of evidence. And the punchline is so utterly hilarious; what expression must he have had on his face as he wrote about Behe grasping at science fiction movies? Are we not blessed? I mean, not only a judge who rules that the emperor is starkers, but one with the wit to say “Well, if he’s fully-dressed, how come I can see his willy?”
“… the assertion that design of biological systems can be inferred from
the “purposeful arrangement of parts” is based upon an analogy to human design.
Because we are able to recognize design of artifacts and objects, according to
Professor Behe, that same reasoning can be employed to determine biological
design. (18:116-17, 23:50 (Behe)). Professor Behe testified that the strength of the analogy depends upon the degree of similarity entailed in the two propositions; however, if this is the test, ID completely fails. Unlike biological systems, human artifacts do not live and reproduce over
time. They are non-replicable, they do not undergo genetic recombination, and
Case 4:04-cv-02688-JEJ Document 342 Filed 12/20/2005 Page 80 of 139 81 they are not driven by natural selection. (1:131-33 (Miller); 23:57-59 (Behe)). For human artifacts, we know the designer’s identity, human, and the mechanism of design, as we have experience based upon empirical evidence that humans can make such things, as well as many other attributes including the designer’s
abilities, needs, and desires. (D-251 at 176; 1:131-33 (Miller); 23:63 (Behe); 5:55- 58 (Pennock)). With ID, proponents assert that they refuse to propose hypotheses on the designer’s identity, do not propose a mechanism, and the designer, he/she/it/they, has never been seen. In that vein, defense expert Professor Minnich agreed that in the case of human artifacts and objects, we know the identity and
capacities of the human designer, but we do not know any of those attributes for the designer of biological life. (38:44-47 (Minnich)). In addition, Professor Behe agreed that for the design of human artifacts, we know the designer and its attributes and we have a baseline for human design that does not exist for design of biological systems. (23:61-73 (Behe)). Professor Behe’s only response to these seemingly insurmountable points of disanalogy was that the inference still works in
science fiction movies. (23:73 (Behe)).”
Unfortunately, the BBC reporter who covered the result was almost completely wrong about every aspect of what the case was really about and the importance of the result. The Xtian mafia at work again, perhaps?
He did, however, opine that this ain’t the end of things and it could go to the Supreme Court. I doubt this – the judge’s ruling, as others have pointed out, is so comprehensive on the one hand and so specific on the other (only talking about teaching ID as science) that its difficult to see where the Wedge folk could find a way in.
But that won’t stop them trying…
“This is very Irving/Lipstadt, isn’t it?”
It is indeed. I’ve been thinking that for the past 24 hours. Another for the annals of bogus ‘controversies’ shot down in flames.
G T, no, we can’t do it to Bethell – at least not in writing, not here – for the reason I indicated. That’s not rhetoric or speculative: people do sue people who call them liars. People do what Irving tried to do to Lipstadt. No, thank you, I do not want to be made even more penniless than I already am by a lawsuit.
“Professor Behe’s only response to these seemingly insurmountable points of disanalogy was that the inference still works in
science fiction movies.”
Oh, man – that’s perfect. Well chosen, Stewart!
Yes, I heard a BBC reporter saying it not only could but surely inevitably would go to the Supreme Court. But that’s not true. The SC could just refuse to review the case; it does that often. It’s not required to review anything; it chooses.
All the reporting I heard got it wrong – as they will do, I suppose – because what interests them is the controversy itself – because it’s the kind of thing reporters can talk about. They’re not interested in the fact that the controversy is fundamentally bogus because one side is nonsensical. That problem seems to be built into the way journalism works, so we’re stuck with these idiot ‘controversies.’ MMR, who wrote Shakespeare’s plays, Mileva Einstein, Holocaust denial, Kennewick man, black Athena, etc etc etc.
See what we have to deal with elsewhere. :) I got no response to the question about why not teach astrology in physics-or holocaust denial (Godwin’s Law!!!). We even have someone posting the good ol’ postmodern nothing is real/science is a religion meme. :)
http://www.cyburbia.org/forums/showthread.php?t=22776
That skis fella is quite interesting – probably Steve Fuller’s love child.
haw!
Nice tagline you got there! Flatterer.
LOL. ‘skis is actually a very admirable young man. Power of Positive Thinking, Career Development, Responsisibility, Lots of Volunteer Work. Church. Sometimes insufferably so. :)
Versus yours truly, a lazy, irresponsible, doubting, wordy, misanthropist :/
I love the good turn of phrase-and a good one always shows up in my signature line :)
Reading the Brian Miller thread, I’ve realised how the ID crowd are going to play this.
ID-loving parents will ‘encourage’ their children to raise ID/creationism questions in science classes, challenging teachers to deal with them. If teachers do, then the ruling is undercut; if they don’t then the ID crowd will go to court on ‘free speech’ grounds.
Or am I getting paranoid?
I took a peek in at Brian’s link, too (I think there are drops that can help your eye problem). Sounds like ‘skis just can’t fathom how anything as comforting as the religious approach could be dangerous.
Chris,
I see no serious danger in teachers having to answer questions from ID kids in class; they should maybe be briefed on pitfalls but all they really have to do is tell the truth. I am sure the IDiots are working on alternative strategies but am not sure that those are the ways they’ll go. I fear we will see a lot of mud being slung the judge’s way; after all, how could he have ruled like that without an ulterior motive (see, I just “proved” it myself, without even trying)?
I’m glad I read the whole ruling and didn’t rely on any boiled-down versions. Some details were very important, such as how it came to be that administrators were to take over from teachers in reading the statement and what students actually heard (‘the administrators made the remarkable and awkward statement, as part of the disclaimer, that “there will be no other discussion of the issue and your
teachers will not answer questions on the issue.”’). Also the way wavering or dissenting board members were treated (“I myself have been twice asked within the past year if I was ‘born again.’ No one has, nor should have the right, to ask that of a fellow board member.”). Yeah, maybe you’re right, maybe they’ll claim “free speech.”
What’s the word for people who come into classrooms and tell you that a particular subject will not be discussed?
Stewart
Reading how the teachers were told they could only have their new biology book if they agreed to ‘Pandas’ being available too shows that G Ts definition of religion as blackmail wasn’t far off the mark.
I note references in the Brian Miller thread to ‘activist’ judges so it’s great that the udge anticipates this and puts the ‘activist’ label exactly where it should be.
My only regret is that he said that ‘evolution…in no way conflicts with…the existence of a divine creator’ but of course if he didn’t at least profess that he’d never have got a job in the US justice system anyway so I can’t really complain.
Two more little notes; the full verdict suggests that those who suggested that Steve Fuller was a prosecution witness in disguise may well have been right and the number of citations labelled O’Connor should make us all realise what a voice of reason and sanity she was in the Supreme Court and how much she’ll be missed.
Happy Christmas everybody…
Heck, I myself am not really a full blown “atheist” myself (as the other thread makes clear). I’m not so willing to definitively say “Evolution proves there is no God.” I just don’t want the Reconstructionists to win ANY victories or impose their indoctrination via the public school system.
Do I get stoned or tarred and feathered here? (lol)
I don’t think I regret anything the judge said. He wasn’t appointed to determine whether or not god exists, but to rule on one very specific point. If he’d ruled the way he did and not pointed out that evolution has nothing whatsoever to say about the existence of a creator (no science does, but evolution is what was under attack) he’d merely have had people screaming things they now can’t, i.e. claiming that he’d ruled there was no god, which was not up to him, etc. Well, I’m glad he’s forestalled that. I don’t need a law preventing people from believing things I think are baseless. I need the same laws protecting their right to believe what they want, my right to say it’s horseshit if that’s what I think it is and protecting me from their forcing anything connected to their belief on me no matter how passionately they feel they are right.
I have followed two or three links, mainly via the Slate piece on the rulings, to blogs I don’t normally even hear about. It’s interesting that there are a lot of religious people who approve of the ruling. It seems some of them felt all along that ID was nothing but a fly in the ointment. They can appreciate the difference between seeing the world as it is, but choosing to believe it was divinely initiated, and choosing to ignore or twist many things that are in plain view in order to carve out a niche for god that they feel he will manage very nicely without, thank you. I still disagree with them on the existence of reasons to believe in god, but at least they have had the minimal good sense to limit their beliefs to the areas outside testability, rather than trying to gatecrash a formal event for which facts are the equivalent of black tie while attired only in wishful thinking.
“I’m not so willing to definitively say “Evolution proves there is no God.””
But neither am I. Of course it doesn’t – it can’t. Such a thing is inherently not provable. I’ve pointed out quite a few times here that proof is much too high a standard. PZ has pointed out quite a few times that that’s one of the first things he teaches freshmen: that science talks of evidence, not proof.
What evolution does do is undercut what used to be the main (although weak, as James Mill pointed out to his son) argument for theism: the argument from design. Since it explains how apparent design can happen without actual design, it renders the theistic explanation unnecessary. But that’s not at all the same thing as proving it’s false.
Another quote for my signature line, Ophelia? :)
Er – Occam’s razor, anybody?
Just to remind ourselves,however, that this is how things are in the UK;
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/4552382.stm
That’s utterly ghastly! In the 21st century and in the Western world, yet! Legally-enshrined zero-tolerance for non-belief! The good part is that the majority are ignoring the requirement, but what the hell is a requirement like that doing on the books? Can’t Jones do anything about this? He might be of Welsh origin…
Written with all the fury of a child who had to swallow years of compulsory prayer without ever having believed in god…
Chris:
“Some heads have called for a cut in the amount of compulsory prayer, but the archbishop of Wales said instead teachers needed practical help. “
-I’m sure the teachers will be positively thrilled with that idea, underworked time-rich half-jobs that they are
But this really pisses me off:
“In a statement on Friday, Welsh Education Minister, Jane Davidson, said she expected “all schools to meet their obligations under the law”.
She added: “All registered pupils attending a maintained school should take part in collective worship and it is the head teacher’s duty to secure this.
“The systems are in place to identify any shortcomings and to ensure that the appropriate action is taken.”
I did NOT vote for those bastards to do this.
Whoever originally framed this law was presumably under the impression god wouldn’t be able to tell the difference between compulsory and non-compulsory prayer – otherwise, what is the bloody point?
It makes me completely sick.
Wow – that’s staggering. The law requires them to pray every day. ‘No excuses – on your knees! Hurry up! Now, worship!’