Zeal of the Land Busy
Blimey. A reader emailed to tell me he’d tracked down the ‘April Fool’s leader’ in the Guardian that Anthony Andrew mentioned in his Guardian article that I commented on yesterday – got all that? It is a bit complicated – but then that’s how this sort of thing works. One article leads to another which leads to a comment which prompts an email – and so it goes. At any rate I read the leader, and boy it’s foolish all right.
There are many in the Muslim community whose warnings, through the early 1990s, of a radicalised generation fell on deaf ears. They would argue that Britain has not so much failed to integrate Muslims, as failed even to try…They argue that the response to setting up Muslim schools was too slow, and that boys’ vital religious instruction in mosques on Saturdays has remained in the cultural clutches of religious authorities back in Pakistan or Bangladesh. The resources were inadequate to promote a vibrant Islam of which these British youngsters could be proud.
So…’Britain’ is supposed to set up Muslim schools (quickly), give boys vital religious instruction in mosques on Saturdays (or perhaps merely fund it?), and promote a vibrant Islam? It is? Dang. I know the UK doesn’t have separation of church and state, I realize that’s a quirky Yank idea, but still…that does seem like asking a lot.
And then there’s this interesting observation:
The crucial ingredient which radicalises this kind of community disaffection into some individuals undertaking acts of extreme violence is the international context. It began with the slow international response in Bosnia, but now spans the globe from Chechnya and Palestine to France where the sisters cannot wear the hijab.
The sisters cannot wear the hijab. Anywhere, ever. It’s torn off them in the street, at the supermarket, in the cafĂ©. Not. But it sounds so nice and unfair and discriminatory to say so.
But religious zeal is not confined to ‘vibrant’ Islam. There is also this bit of whimsy from the Los Angeles Times telling us what a good thing it is that George Bush is a religious zealot.
Even those who don’t share Bush’s religious convictions should see them as a good thing. His faith compels him to wrestle with ethical questions that less religious men might simply ignore. And his strong faith offers us visible guideposts by which we can evaluate his performance as president. Find me a commander in chief who lacks core convictions rooted in something greater than himself, and you’ll have a leader who lacks an identifiable moral compass and will, accordingly, be prone to drift off course.
Well, that’s blunt, at any rate. We know where we are. Less religious ‘men’ (and probably women too, but who cares what they do) ignore ethical questions that Bush wrestles with on account of his ‘faith.’ Ah. Interesting. Well, leaving aside the question of whether Bush really does seem to be an ethically thoughtful kind of guy, there is also the question of whether or not it is true that people who don’t share Bush’s ‘faith’ might simply ignore ethical questions. And the further question of what the authors mean by ‘something greater than himself’ – and the question of what Bush means by it, and what the rest of us might mean by it. It’s a nice vague phrase, isn’t it. But does it really mean something vague? Or does it mean something specific? To wit, a specific person, one God by name, with a particular (supernatural) character and history, known to us via a book named the Bible (a book named the Book). Since the article refers approvingly to ‘Judeo-Christian principles’ it seems fair to assume that it does mean that. So there we are, an exceptionally clear statement of the familiar implication: atheists lack an identifiable (you know, as in a lineup – that’s the guy, number two, with the beard!) moral compass and so will drift off course. It’s worth knowing that’s what they think.
Here’s where I agree with you all the way.
The Bush part. The cloying buffet-style ecumenicism that masks something deeper and more sinister than merely religious chauvinism. And I full support your position and the accuracy with which you nail the underlying assumptions.
Hear hear. Cheers. Stuff like that.
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The hajib thing I don’t know.
What about colonialism’s debt? Is there one?
Does France owe anybody?
When did we all start fresh?
Because isn’t there something to the idea that all those Pakistanis that are now couple generations deep in England’s green and pleasant idea of land were backwash from rapacious empire-building?
That’s what I mean about starting over.
It’s kind of awkward to say to people you’ve beaten down and stolen from, that now we’re all starting over. Because they still carry the burden for that previous robbery. They still lack what was taken.
So while I don’t support the idea of state-funded religious instruction, in fact it seems bizarrely damagingly wrong, I do support some kind of move toward…mmm…remorse, reparation, I don’t know, something.
Otherwise we have this statute of limitations, which just breeds extremely patient crooks. Extort, wait seven years, spend. On an empirical scale.
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Still, I think you did a fine job there.
Britain should act quickly on the Muslim schools issue, by recognising the divisiveness of having Christian schools and abolishing all faith based schools – removing the hypocrisy of middle class parents going to church to get their kids into a nice CofE school while they’re at it.
> What about colonialism’s debt? Is there one?
Reminds me of the “What have the Roman’s ever done for us?” sketch from Monty Python’s Life of Bryan.
Colonialism left plenty of gifts as well.
> When did we all start fresh?
One human lifetime seems about right to me. Surely you are not suggesting the descendents of perpetrators owe the descendants of victims anything? All that does is create a new set of victims and a new set of perpetrators. I do not beleive in inherited racial guilt. Shame on anybody who does.
>Because isn’t there something to the idea that all those Pakistanis that are now couple generations deep in England’s green and pleasant idea of land were backwash from rapacious empire-building?
And what would that “something” be? I am not sure what you are alluding to. Is there a problem with “having all those Pakistanis” over here?
>It’s kind of awkward to say to people you’ve beaten down and stolen from, that now we’re all starting over. Because they still carry the burden for that previous robbery. They still lack what was taken.
Cool, just as well I haven’t beaten or stolen from anyone then. Or are you you laying blame at my feet for what people who once lived on the same bit of land I live on, did before I was born?
> So while I don’t support the idea of state-funded religious instruction, in fact it seems bizarrely damagingly wrong, I do support some kind of move toward…mmm…remorse, reparation, I don’t know, something.
Reparation to who? The victims are dead, the perpetrators are dead. That is why justice delayed is justice denied. You seem to want to dish out “reparation” on the basis of what our ancestors did. This is often brought up in relation to Africa. This strikes me as forgetting that the slaves were not stolen by Europeans. They were sold to them by other African tribes who had caught them. Surely these tribes should be the ones paying reparations – if you beleive in inherited racial guilt that is.
> Otherwise we have this statute of limitations, which just breeds extremely patient crooks. Extort, wait seven years, spend. On an empirical scale.
Extremely long lived crooks as well it seems. Countries are not the same as people. Punish people for what they do, not what their ancestors did to the ancestors of others.
ChrisM:
So you would agree with “My grandfather robbed your grandfather blind, but I inherited all this loot fair and square, so you’re out of luck. Reparations? No way.”
Note that this is not an argument for reparations; I’m just pointing out that the situation is not so simple as you make it seem.
Maybe it’s not about justice;maybe it’s about whether our children will be able to live together in peace.
Chris M:
“I do not beleive in inherited racial guilt.”- Fine, but substitute “collective” and acknowledge that public professions of guilt are always a sham, and still, the issue remains that the inheritance of benefits and of socially and transnationally structured deficits and oppressions continues in force. It is not a matter of individual intentions, but rather the structuration, transmitted across time and perhaps place, of the conditions in which such intentions and their unequal differentials of power are formed and effectuated. Try as one may, others are not necessarily as irrational as one’s ratiocinations would like to portray them.
“This strike me as forgetting that the slaves were not stolen by Europeans.”
LOL!
PM. It has been said of international aid, that it is a way of taking money off poor people in rich countries, and giving it to rich people in poor countries. Probably a large element of truth in that.
wmr/John c
So you would agree with “My grandfather robbed your grandfather blind, but I inherited all this loot fair and square, so you’re out of luck. Reparations? No way.”
No I wouldn’t agree with the dilema as stated above. However, that is not the sitation. I am not sure there is much “loot” now that we have that belongs to other countries. Most of the advantages of the West are cultural rather than resource based. Other than the Elgin marbles and a few other museaum peices, what is all this Loot that we have that means I ought to give reparations to anybody? Does it work the other way as well? Do we get to demmand payment off of countries who have benefited (in terms of culture and infra structure) from colonial rule in their past?
Should Britain demand reparations off of the Italians for being invaded by the Romans, or should we pay them money for the roads and water we got.
“It is not a matter of individual intentions, but rather the structuration, transmitted across time and perhaps place, of the conditions in which such intentions and their unequal differentials of power are formed and effectuated.”
So how far back should this be held against a nation? It strikes me that all of human history has involved groups of people taking advantage of, and being taking advantage of by other groups of people. Any group of people can both be rightly accused of being descendants of perpetrators, and can also claim to being descendants of victims. Trying to devise a fair way of working out reparations when the original participants are long dead would seem an impossible task involving a lot of “What If…” history. This was justifiably criticised somewhere on B&W recently I beleive.
ChrisM:
Even if any question of reparations is inconceivable, impossible or meaningless,- (though see European Jewry and see also the Israeli/Palestinian conflict)-, redistributions in favor of more adequate and balanced development and conservation are certainly conceivable and are not simply an outrage to the sacred rights of private property and to the just deserts of individual ability. Your claim that the advantages of the West are cultural rather than resource-based manages to beg questions about large chunks of historical real estate. It also manages to leave out the question of just who in the West managed to benefit from such august “cultural” attainments. Refusing to understand the perspective of social systems and their operations and effects and just how individuals are variously situated within them, of course, renders moot any considerations of justice and nugatory any proposal to effect an alteration in their operations. No, all the violence of human history can not be made good and compensated for. It’s just that such violence has a curious way of perpetuating itself in the present.
ChrisM:
In addition to what John says in the preceding comment, I wd point out that much of our “loot” (metaphorically speaking) is in the form of a range of choices which is artificially expanded by the producers’ expedient of keeping wage-costs low. Ever think about what fruit wd cost if fruit pickers got a living wage?
“Ever think about what fruit wd cost if fruit pickers got a living wage?”
Most critisms of the free market system actually centre on cases where the free market is not operating. I agree with many of the critisms made of big business. However, often the problem is that the free market is NOT operating properly.
What is the wage of a fruitpicker? I don’t know, so I can’t really comment on whether it is a living wage or not. Do you offer to pay more for goods than the price shown? If not, why should you expect others to.
ChrisM:
I forgot this choice tidbit in my last post, so I’ve returned to add it. After the Haitians overthrew their French masters, they were forced to agree to pay reparations to Napoleonic France, in order to obtain recognition for their independence and stabilize their situation. That is, they paid reparations for the lost property of the French in Haiti, i.e., their slaves, the Haitians themselves. Pere Aristide, of course, calculated the amount paid, with inflation and interest accrued, at $21 billion and went about demanding that the French repay to the Haitians their “debt”. It was, of course, the French who took the lead recently in calling for Aristide’s ouster.
“Even if any question of reparations is inconceivable, impossible or meaningless,- (though see European Jewry and see also the Israeli/Palestinian conflict)-, redistributions in favor of more adequate and balanced development and conservation are certainly conceivable and are not simply an outrage to the sacred rights of private property and to the just deserts of individual ability. “
Redistribution, and reparation are two very different things. Redistibution is a matter I have said nothing about, so I don’t really get where the “Even” bit at the start comes from.
“Your claim that the advantages of the West are cultural rather than resource-based manages to beg questions about large chunks of historical real estate. “
I have begged no questions. I don’t beleive countries belong to lines of humans. In as much as they belong to any group of people, it is the people that now in that country, not who once lived there.
It also manages to leave out the question of just who in the West managed to benefit from such august “cultural” attainments.
Naturally my claim left out this question, as it has nothing to do with it. My claim that the earth is flat leaves out the question of what colour is grass.
Refusing to understand the perspective of social systems and their operations and effects and just how individuals are variously situated within them, of course, renders moot any considerations of justice and nugatory any proposal to effect an alteration in their operations.
What is “the perspective of a social system”?
ChrisM:
“Even”- yes, conceivable, but impracticable notions of historical reparations, historical consciousness, and reflection on the current operations of social systems and the dominant interests they perpetuate and benefit are reasonably linked notions. Nor are the absolute privileges of the present with respect to the past and the future “ontologically” guaranteed. Whose present and how long does it last?
“What is ‘the perspective of social systems’?”- Well, human lives are cross-implicated, no? And the effects of such cross-implication result in emergent properties to social reality and its functionnings that are no less real than the individuals who populate it and that exceed the perspective of individuals and their immediate self-interest. So the “perspective of social systems” is what one undertakes whenever one attempts to analyse and assess the actual functionnings of social reality. On the other hand, nominalistically disaggregating such social reality can only go a limited way before it falls into absurdity and that does nothing to protect the purity of one’s individual intentions.
But I had wanted to add a comment about your claim two posts ago about the operations of free markets. According to standard neo-classical economic theory, in a perfectly competitive market, businesses can make no profits; all revenues are absorbed by the costs of inputs, labor and interest. Now, I think the neo-classicals have made an elementary mistake in logical idealization by arguing in terms of “most efficient’ rather than “least inefficient” and, further, they have formalized a mechanistic, homeostatic conception of equilibrium into their theory, forgetting that markets are comprised of agents with their activities and constraints, which are what feed market dynamics, and adding individual decision criteria only afterwards. But, together with their Idealizing assumption of a “level playing-field”, when market phenomena have never actually emerged under such conditions, their theory does lead to the odd implication that business profits are always, in effect, rents, that is, that businesses can organize profits only by excluding market competition. This may hint at why big businesses tend to predominate and why calls for more perfect competition are unlikely to be effective.
ChrisM:
Either you don’t get my point or I don’t get yours. I’m not spending any more time on this.
Perhaps I don’t get your point. You seemed to suggest that fruit pickers on low wages were a form of “loot” that the West had stolen. You didn’t even justify this, so I had to guess at who you felt was to blame for this and why. I guessed that you may be blaming “western capitalist imperialism” (a popular bogeyman, along with white men). This was why I made the point about the free market not working properly (western subsidies of farmers and the like mean that we do not see a proper free market in food). Evidently I was wrong, and you did not have this in mind when you said that cheap fruit was a form of loot. I would be interested on how you do figure that cheap fruit or the expanded range of choices is a form of loot.
Of course if you are too busy to justify your assertions, I wouldn’t worry, lots of people make assertions without justifying them with any evidence.
John C
I am afraid that whilst I can follow the concepts you are talking about, you have flummoxed me with your terminology. I don’t even know what “cross-implication” is, much less what “social reality” is. Nor am I sure what how a guarantee can be ontological (pertaining to metaphysics?)
Your final paragraph I found similiarly hard to follow, but the gist seems to be:
there is a theory based on certain assumptions.
There are some assumptions the theorists have made.
You yourself do not think all the assumptions are justified, and in addition
beleive they have made an elementary logical mistake. However, even after all this, the theory STILL shows that businesses charge rent rather than make profits? The theory also seems to indulge in a bit of equivation in using the word “rent” in a non-standard way. In any events, rents are profits, or at least can be.
ChrisM:
I’m not aware of weirdly manipulating words, but not everything can be meaningfully expressed in basic English.
Just to explain the simplest term, “rents” in economics jargon refers to rates of return on capital above the level warranted by the opportunity costs on the deployment of capital, in other words, excessive rates of profit, as in “monoploy rents”.
ChrisM:
Alright, one more try. Read carefully
“much of our “loot” (metaphorically speaking) is in the form of a range of choices which is artificially expanded by the producers’ expedient of keeping wage-costs low”
Nothing there about fruit and I even pointed out that “loot” is used metaphorically. Ever heard of “sweat equity” or “opportunity cost”? Chinese laborers work in low wages(by our standards), make goods that we buy cheap at WalMart, and as a result we have more money to spend on other things–therefore, expanded range of choices.
All non-ChrisM commenters:
Is anybody else having trouble with my comments? Am I that hard to understand?
wmr:
No.
But where’s that rapper msg, who’s gotten us into all this trouble?
wmr.
“Nothing there about fruit and I even pointed out that “loot” is used metaphorically”
Hey, if you only quote half your original post, missing out the bit about fruit pickers, then of course there will be nothing about fruit. Your original post however, did mention fruit pickers.
“Chinese laborers work in low wages(by our standards), make goods that we buy cheap at WalMart, and as a result we have more money to spend on other things–therefore, expanded range of choices.”
Chinese laborers may work for low wages by our standards, but they are not the relevant standards. It is the Chinese standard which is relevent here, and compared with that, they are not on such low wages. In addition, we get to buy cheaper goods. Sounds like a non-zero sum game to me, everyone’s a winner. We get cheaper goods, they get jobs which are as good or better than many that exist in their own country. What do you have against this?
“I even pointed out that “loot” is used metaphorically”.
So what? Even metaphorically, I beleive the accusation is unwarranted.
http://tinyurl.com/32hlu
“I’m not aware of weirdly manipulating words”.
I’m not aware of having accused you of such.
“but not everything can be meaningfully expressed in basic English.”
Granted. However, not everything that is not expressed in basic English is meaningful. I’m reading a book on Richard Feynman at the moment which describes a lot of quantum physics, in lay terms, and I do not seem to be having much trouble. Richard Dawkins seems to be able to express complicated notions with basic English. It could be that the concepts you are discussing are more complex that quantum physics or evolutionary biology. I just find that highly unlikely.
“Just to explain the simplest term, “rents” in economics jargon…”
Thats great, but when do I get to find out what an ontological guarantee is.
ChrisM:
You continue to slide right past my basic point and focus too much on the examples.
None of your responses gives me any reason to think that you have yet recognized my basic point–that one of the benefits (“loot”, used metaphorically) of our political-economic system is that one’s money goes farther when one lives in a nation that can take advantage of the misfortunes of less powerful nations. While it may be true that many are better-off than they wd be otherwise, some are more better-off than others. Is it surprising that the less better-off later learn to resent that situation? and claim that more of the better-offness should have come their way?
And are you so sure that EVERYBODY is better off? What about the people here who have lost jobs? We get cheap shoes, they get unemployment. Are you sure that the sum is really zero? (Oh Gosh, I did it again. “Shoes” is just a figure of speech, a placeholder for all sorts of things or maybe nothing in particular–you figure it out.)
Oh, and what accusation?
ChrisM:
A zero-sum game where everyone is a winner is a contradiction in terms.
My games theory is a little rusty so I had to check on this before I commented.
“A zero-sum game where everyone is a winner is a contradiction in terms.”
What a difference a “non” can make. If you re-read my post you will see that I said “Sounds like a non-zero sum game to me, everyone’s a winner. “
If I had said what you think I said, then I agree, there would be a contradiction in terms. However, I said what I actually said, and there is no contradiction.
“And are you so sure that EVERYBODY is better off? What about the people here who have lost jobs? We get cheap shoes, they get unemployment. “
OK, the greatest number of people are better off. There are always winners and losers in any set-up. Free trade maximises winners, and minimises losers. Even those who have lost, benefit by being able to buy cheaper goods. What do you suggest instead, that we don’t allow the developing world to compete with the developed world because we might loose jobs?
“Oh, and what accusation?”
The accustaion that being able to buy cheap fruit is a form of loot. This is using a perjorative term under the guise of introducing new terminology. Marx was very fond of this.
“While it may be true that many are better-off than they wd be otherwise, some are more better-off than others. “
So what? Bill Gates is richer than me. How does that make me poorer? I would rather a system that makes for the highest median standard of living, not one which seeks to eliminate all inequality, by making us all poor.
“Is it surprising that the less better-off later learn to resent that situation? and claim that more of the better-offness should have come their way?”
Maybe not surprising, but not very fair. Societies that oppress half their population as a matter of course, don’t allow people the freedom to live their lives with minimum state interference, base their laws on ancient texts and function as kleptocracies are not generally going to be very rich dynamic nations.
I stand corrected on “non”.
For the rest, I quote “Either you don’t get my point or I don’t get yours. I’m not spending any more time on this.”
For the rest, I quote “Either you don’t get my point or I don’t get yours. I’m not spending any more time on this.”
I am not so arrogant as to think that people who disagree with me do so merely because they do not get my point. I get your point, I just happen to disagree with it.