I’m Knitting a Guillotine
Well, I tried to preserve the anti-secularist’s anonymity, but I was not permitted. So very well. Now that that’s not an option, I’ll just go ahead and take a look at some more over-the-top religious rhetoric. Barn door me no barn doors, this sort of thing is both interesting and important, so I will not machine-gun it (despite being Mme. Defarge) but I will question it.
Cite me, if you will, Mr. Halasz, the secular leftists in the French Revolution who fought its excesses. Cite me, if you will, the secular leftists in Stalin’s Soviet who did not support it or look the other way when churches were razed. Cite me, if you will, all the secular leftists, in Mao’s China, who fought for the right of traditional religion there.
That part is interesting as an example of – what, self-deception, confirmation bias, careless reading? Something like that. Because of course the problem is that in the original comment our anti-secularist forgot the word ‘leftists’. A key omission – and one that he apparently didn’t even notice. Obviously, there is a large difference between saying ‘the same cannot be said of the secularists. They were all on the side of the outrages committed in the French Revolution, in Stalin’s Soviet, and Mao’s China’ and saying what I quote above. Simply as a factual matter (and that’s all I was talking about) it’s just absurd to say that all secularists were ‘on the side of’ anything whatsoever about Stalin’s Soviet Union or Mao’s China. Does the name Ayn Rand ring any bells for example? Or, as I said, Bertrand Russell, who had no use at all for the Soviet version of Communism. Or any number of other secularists, right-wing, left-wing, apolitical, you name it. Not all secularists were fans of Stalin, that’s all there is to it.
But it gets livelier.
Ophelia Benson’s Bertram Russell is no evidence against what I said. The infidelity of the secular left is a huge embarrassment, of course. It is both unfaithfulness toward G_d and unfaithfulness with its religious allies. Our friend, OB, is simply Madam DeFarge at the keyboard, instead of fiddling with her knitting needles.
Well of course Bertrand (not Bertram, obviously) Russell is indeed evidence against what he said, if not what he now wishes he’d said. But that’s by the way. It’s the next bit that’s really fascinating. The ‘infidelity’ of the secular left? Infidelity according to whom? And a huge embarrassment? Meaning secular leftists are supposed to be hugely embarrassed by leftist atheism? Well, I’m not, I can tell you that much. What I’m embarrassed by is woolly-mindedness in people who ought to know better. And then I have to wonder, how can one be ‘unfaithful’ toward a being that doesn’t exist? Yes I know, now all the defenders of wool will get indignant with me for making such a flat assertion. But if the theists get to say that it does exist, why don’t we get to say that it doesn’t? (It’s a rhetorical trick, you know, that business of assuming god exists as opposed to arguing it or leaving it tentative.) But if you prefer, how can one be ‘unfaithful’ toward a being that one has no good reason to believe exists? How can one be ‘unfaithful’ to someone or something one has never made the slightest promise or commitment to of any kind whatever? Eh? One might as well go up to a perfect stranger in the street and shout ‘You bastard, you’ve been unfaithful to me!’ And then unfaithfulness with its religious allies. Ah. Perhaps now we can begin to understand why people like me don’t want religious allies in the first place. It’s because we don’t want to risk having to listen to this kind of thing. Because we don’t want ‘allies’ who expect us to be ‘faithful’ to some non-existent figment of their imaginations, and actually feel entitled to reproach us if we’re not, that’s why. And of course because they get so worked up about the whole thing that they end up calling us names. Our ‘friend’ forsooth. I suppose Mme. Defarge is the only murderous ruthless secular woman he could think of on short notice. If I’d been a man perhaps he would have called me Josef Stalin, at the keyboard instead of fiddling with the Gulag. So believers demonstrate what polite, civil, calm, reasonable people they are. But actually that’s not fair. I know perfectly well that not all believers are as out of control as this particular one. He’s in a class by himself.
I was struck by several elements in all this: one, the way “secularists” mutated into “secularists in the particular country” and, two, the implication that there was no middle ground between publicly opposing a tyrant and being “on the side of the outrages”.
Also, I couldn’t help wondering why the Nazis didn’t make the list.
Well, you’re always demanding evidence. There’s your evidence: evidence of a bee under a bonnet.
Certainly I’m always asking for – not demanding, that’s just rhetoric – evidence. It’s no good pretending (via rhetoric like ‘always demanding’) that’s a particularly eccentric thing to do. Why, even historians are expected to have evidence. Imagine that.
Yeah, those secularists sure did mutate, didn’t they. That’s why I gave up arguing with this particular believer a few weeks ago: he shifts his ground whenever he has no answer. As we discussed at some length recently and as Phil Mole discussed in that article of his, it just gets too tedious trying to have a rational argument with people who can’t or won’t. Who change the subject instead of answering, who resort to name-calling, who make, er, unsupported claims; who will say whatever they feel like in defense of their ‘beliefs’. This is just what was under discussion in that post at Pharyngula about the Shermer-Dembski debate.
And in fact this is one big reason for the whole problem at issue – the problem that triggered the post and the comment I quoted: the fact that theists and non-theists can’t always collaborate. Some people feel very strongly that they ought to be able to – but this kind of thing shows why it can be so extremely difficult. Or impossible.
I’ve made a brief survey of Luker’s lucubrations. Conclusion: arguing with somebody who apparently cannot distinguish between ‘secularists’ and ‘leftists’ just isn’t worth the bother, Ophelia. You are wasting your intellectual energy and you might as well be blogging to the wall. And if this kind of stuff qualifies as ‘fashionable nonsense’ in the United States, the Lord preserve us from the ‘unfashionable’ variety.
Amen.
I must admit I tend to agree with Cathal here. The problem with our friend isn’t so much that he’s a theist, it’s just that he isn’t able to argue.
He may be a great historian, and I’m pretty sure that I’d agree with him about most political stuff, but from what I’ve read of him, he can’t construct or follow an argument. Of course, this could just be a function of the nature of the blogosphere. But, on the other hand, maybe it tells us something about the kind of training which historians get.; or, on the third hand, perhaps something about the poor standards of middle-rung academia in the States…
OB: thanks for the editorial assist on my post(s).
john:
You go too fast for me; I’m not too good with ambiguity and pretty poor at interpreting proverbs. ‘Course, I don’t read much Heidegger or Levinas, so I usually get by OK. Maybe you cd be more specific? Whose is the bonnet? What is the bee?
Welcome, w.
Cathal and Jerry,
Well, I know, and that’s why I stopped arguing with Ralph weeks ago. I said that at the time – it can’t be done. I just couldn’t resist pointing out that one wildly inaccurate statement. But no doubt you’re right. I’ll conserve my intellectual energy for – for making lame jokes, that’s what.
“that’s why I stopped arguing with Ralph weeks ago”
I came to the conclusion that it was hopeless when he claimed on here that:
“When something is ubiquitous, the interesting question isn’t “how could it have been tolerated?” because it was commonly and widely accepted.”
And then seemed quite incapable of understanding why this is just silly.
Then he had the cheek to suggest I was some kind of scholar!
“Then he had the cheek to suggest I was some kind of scholar!”
Now that really does take the biscuit, doesn’t it!
wmr:
Sorry, I thought that was clear enough. The reference was to Prof. Luker’s exorbitant excretion.
“Now that really does take the biscuit, doesn’t it!”
Too right! After all: I watch Neighbours religiously; I prefer Abba to Beethoven; Stephen King to Hardy (bloody hell, that Tess was irritating!); I only eat pizza; I’ve never written a journal article; I used to teach by keeping a textbook open on my desk, and squinting at it (nightmare when the students asked a question about something on a different page!); I don’t own a lecturn (and can’t spell it either); tend to employ ad hominems rather than argument (because of tendency to fall asleep otherwise); didn’t know where the library was at my first university until the third year…
well you get the picture. So scholar I’m not.
john:
So you think not mentioning the Nazis was another example of a mode of thinking which assumes that “secularist” implies “leftist”.
Hmmm…well, I hate to tell you, Jerry (especially since it’s 2 in the morning where you are so I’ll get the last word at least for awhile), but of course (as you know) there are scholars who make a great point of preferring Stephen King to Hardy and Abba (well maybe not Abba, quite) to Beethoven. Have you never heard of Cult Studs?! Was that on a different page of the textbook? So I’m not sure those items will make your case for you. Of course I know you’re not a scholar, but that’s pure insight, unverified by testing or peer-review or replication, so I’m afraid it’s not really reliable.
wmr:
Godwin occurred to me right away. I didn’t take that line because it obviously amounts to pouring gasoline on the fire, but then the whole thing was so outlandish it’s hard to now how to respond.
“Have you never heard of Cult Studs?!”
I don’t think the LSE even had a Cult Studs department, so I couldn’t be that kind of scholar. Anyway, that’s surely an oxymoron – a scholar of Cult Studs…
No, I’m sure LSE didn’t, poor benighted place. And as for oxymoron – as if a studly Cult Stud would let that get in the way!
my sister always love knitting, she loves to knit customized patterns.**`