The epithet question again
I wrote a whole post about the word “pussy” back in 2009 – a couple of years before it became routine for people to call me a cunt along with every other misogynist epithet in the arsenal. It generated a lot of interesting comments.
Here’s the post again:
I’m curious about something. To the best of my knowledge, a sexist epithet is a sexist epithet. There’s not generally a lot of ambiguity about it, although there’s always room for ironic uses in private conversation and so on. In public discourse, a sexist epithet is what it is. Yet – I keep encountering people who dispute that, in places where I wouldn’t expect to, such as comments on Jesus and Mo. So I’m curious about what other people think.
A commenter said ‘the god of Islam is such a pussy. He is unable to do a thing to protect himself or his reputation and must rely on his minions to do his dirty work.’ I took exception, and someone replied by quoting one of Julian’s Bad Moves from here, on the fact that many words have multiple meanings. True enough, but is there more than one way to understand ‘pussy’ in that comment? Not that I know of.
What’s interesting is that I think that’s pretty widely understood, even by people who pretend or believe otherwise. One reason I think that is that I don’t know anyone who uses the word that way in conversation or correspondence with me. I don’t think that’s an accident; I think it’s because no one who knows me thinks it would be welcome – and for all I know this includes people who do use the word in conversation with other people. The point is that if people avoid the word with (at least) certain audiences, then the meaning is probably pretty clear. Am I wrong?
Certain epithets just are not really ambiguous; they can’t be. ‘Nigger’ is the best known in the US and maybe elsewhere; kike, raghead, kaffir are a few more. Queer and dyke have been reclaimed, and there is a school of thought that ‘bitch’ has but I think on the contrary, ‘bitch’ is more viciously misogynist than ever. And so are, as far as I know, pussy, twat and cunt. It is my considered opinion that no one who comments on Jesus and Mo would have the gall to call the barmaid any of those things, and that if I’m right about that, they should stop using them at all.
Words only have meanings in the sense that we have intersubjective agreement on what they are to be used to signify. Epithets in particular tend to start out as associative references to specific things, the over time get drained of the association until they just exist as generic words for this or that bad thing.
My personal take on the word pussy is that this hasn’t happened enough yet for me to be comfortable using it. So I don’t, and not being in the habit, probably never will. I know that it’s usual communicative meaning is just “weak or cowardly on a morally shameful way,” but the association to female genitalia is too strong for me to feel comfortable with it.
But the word “wuss” triggers none of those associations for me. Even though when I think about it I know it has to be related to the word pussy. And google just confirmed that (I didn’t read in depth but it appears to be wimp + pussy = wuss). I don’t generally use the term because I pretty much never feel like it’s my business to castigate someone for a lack of courage or pride. But the idea of using it raises no negative mental reaction for me- I think that in spite of it’s history, none of the associative connotation was ever communicated to me, and I haven’t internalized it.
So TLDR, I agree with your position generally speaking, but don’t have a broad objection to epithets as a concept, and can at least envision someone disagreeing in good faith.
I don’t think you do know that, for the reason that it’s not true. Look at the video of Trump saying it and then tell me that again – it makes no sense.
That may be true in some places or some circles, but it’s not just generally true.
I’m really surprised that anyone would think it was anything other than a sexist slur. It’s obviously meant to demean and devalue the subject being spoken of. Woman, man, or god.
Anyone who argues otherwise has some serious language comprehension issues — or is not arguing in good faith.
Pussy is especially uncomfortable, being both a macho insult and, apparently, the de rigueur popular term for the vulva. A reeeally bad juxtaposition.
Are you referring to Trumps quote about Cruz? If so I do not understand the point you are making. As I recall some woman in the crowd was saying it, Trump repeated her comment to the audience at large, and… that’s kind of it. Trump sort of half owned the quote on the news later, I think, after being questioned on it. I don’t recall any context that contradicts my understanding of the word. Was there some other incident?
I mostly ignore him (like everyone else on the internet I’m voting Sanders, or Clinton, in that order) and only picked that up from social media, so I could have missed another incident.
https://www.facebook.com/144310995587370/photos/a.271728576178944.71555.144310995587370/1119790651372728/?type=3&theater
Certainly in my country pussy is the polite and more ‘nuanced’ version of cunt. I ‘ ‘ nuanced because there isn’t that much nuance to be had really. Cunt is just plain derogatory and likens someone to the worst possible stereotype of a woman’s sex organ. Pussy can be used in the same way, but in circumstances where you might get away without serious social consequences. On the other hand it can be used as a form of teasing between male friends when one fails to live up to some meaningless standard of macho behaviour. yeah, that’s the extent of the ‘nuance’.
Pussy is, as I’m sure everyone here understands, problematic because it compares the receiver (man or woman) unfavourably to a ‘good’ behaviour on the assumption women do not behave that way; plus defining woman in that context by sex organ. It’s one of a large number of such words that have become pretty much normalised but that at root were intended to cause offence and denigrate.
Rob hit the nail on the head. Although I’d add, in the U.S., some words are so forbidden that using them to insult someone is very close to threatening them with violence, because the force of hate behind it. Cunt and nigger are similar in that way– when used in anger, the person being addressed can reasonably expect the possibility of a physical attack to follow it.
But any time a person insults a man by more or less calling him a woman, it is misogynist. Wuss isn’t so much (although it sounds a bit childish), because even though it might have been created as a variant of pussy, “wuss” is not associate with being female or having female body parts. Indeed, when adults use it, it’s generally playfully laughing at their own childish fears or lack fo strength. “Can you get that spider outside? I’m such a wuss about spiders.”
I wonder, frankly, if this points to a difference between American and British English. I know that historically ‘pussy’ can refer to the female sexual organ, but growing up in England never acquainted me with that meaning – I didn’t come across it until coming to Japan and meeting, in addition to Japanese people of course, Americans. I can’t remember the title of the British novel in which the following line, spoken by one woman to another, as I recall, appeared: “Oh, Henry is an old pussycat.” Meaning that though he might look fierce, he was in fact a kind man – it is the sort of thing that a well-educated woman might well say: I have heard it in real life, too. In Ronald Harwood’s famous play ‘The Dresser’, the old actor’s pet name for his wife is ‘Pussy’ (hers for him is ‘Bonzo’). No British person would find his name for her in any way indecent.
Tim, that may be true in limited ways. For example calling someone a pussycat is definitely different from calling someone a pussy. I can also see that between couples calling someone ‘Pussy’ as a term of endearment might well be a thing – it is almost certainly linked back to being a kitty cat again.
Indirectly the use of pussy for women’s anatomy possibly links back to a cat analogy ultimately anyway (at the nice end think stroking/purring; at the not so nice end prostitutes or women of negotiable virtue are know as cats in some lingos). In any case it is dehumanising in that it is not meant in that context in an affirmative or respectful manner, but reduces the person to an object that is not human to be used for ones own pleasure primarily.
New Zealand is a former British colony with very strong British linguistic links, but with an increasing overlay of American usage as a result of TV and movie super-culture. Pussy, with the usage I described @7 was already well entrenched and understood in the 70’s when American TV and culture was much less prevalent, so I don’t personally buy the US origin idea.
I’m with Tim on this. Although I’ve long known ‘pussy’ as an American sexual reference, until I read this post I had assumed the somewhat affectionate and positive original ‘he’s really just an old pussycat’ had morphed into a more contemptuous attitude, all of which probably makes me a rather naive antipodean.
I am not buying the American origin idea. The use of the word to refer to the female genitals is recorded in Britain in mediaeval times, as I recall – long before any settlers from Britain got to the US. But I have never heard it used in that way in Britain (though it may be now – I have lived in Japan for over forty years). I am clearly rather older than you (this is not pulling age on you!) and never while growing up heard the word used in the way it is used in America (and I worked with people from all strata of British society and knew them well). And if someone said, ‘He’s an old pussy’, I should have taken it as being no different in meaning from ‘He’s an old pussycat.’ I first came across the sexual usage of the word among Americans in Japan, and have always disliked it.
I’ve just seen Rob’s comment #10. As a 20+ NZer in the 70’s I didn’t know ‘pussy’ as a sexual reference, but then I also thought ‘twat’ was just an angrier version of ‘twit’ until recently.
On the other hand in the James Bond movie Goldfinger, when Sean Connery wakes up after being shot to find Honor Blackman standing over him and saying, “I’m Pussy Galore”, he quips, “I must be in heaven”.
That’s a British movie from 1964. The audience were clearly expected to get the joke.
^ Exactly. I said that in one of the comments on the 2009 post. One of the comments in reply said the meaning wasn’t universally known, and wouldn’t have gotten past the censors otherwise. I guess that could be true.
The sexual and/or epithet meaning has probably pushed out the “cat” meaning in the US – people don’t talk about pussycats to children any more, I think, but they used to. Certainly pussy willow was a commonplace word in my long-ago yoof, but now it would be sure to invoke cackles.
TH and KD, I suspect I’m younger than both of you by 5-15 years as I was in my teens in the late ’70s. The slang in my school (which was pretty working class I would have to say) was quite sexually charged. Apart from Pussy another good example was that if one were to drive a vehicle in an exuberant, reckless and probably illegal manner to the point that it was in danger of mechanical failure, that would be described as ‘rooting’ the said vehicle. My cousins just 200km south thought that disgusting phrasing and used the term ‘caining’.
Slang can be very siloed before it finally breaks loose. Interestingly, no-one ever remonstrated with me at that age about pussy or rooting as slang, but I was told in no uncertain terms that fag and faggot were unacceptable. I wasn’t a bad, misogynistic or homophobic kid at all, but I still look back on my use of certain phrasing and attitudes with a slightly appalled gaze. You just swim in this socialised muck and it’s not until your head comes above the surface for a moment that you understand the difference. It’s a bit like taking the red pill I guess. The world is never the same again.
Anyway, risking a derail. tl;dr version. Even if in some places and times pussy was not a sexually derogatory phrase I think it has to be accepted as such now by dint of popular usage, except when phrased specifically as pussycat in the context of safe and unthreatening.
PS: Ophelia, pussywillow had better still mean fluffy seed like stuff or I’m going to need therapy.
I am not buying the American origin idea. The use of the word to refer to the female genitals is recorded in Britain in mediaeval times….
And let us not forget Mrs. Slocombe and her pussy.
Oh, dear, I hadn’t heard of Mrs Slocombe, and I’ve just watched her on YouTube… Oh, dear.
Mrs Slocombe’s usage was a joke because of the double meaning. And it was safe for children because they didn’t get it: Pussy=cat, the end. The American usage was known in the Commonwealth, because we consume your media, but not in common use for genitalia.
Just because it’s old English doesn’t mean it’s current. The population split, one use dies out in one group, you know, evolution and stuff.
I’ve heard that when the James Bond novels were written, Pussy was not as well known in Britain so getting the innuendo relied on a knowledge of American slang. Whatever the truth of that I can tell you as a British person that now everyone knows that meaning even if it is not in such common usage. We watch a lot of American media and could hardly fail to know what it meant.
I first learned that pussy was a rude word in the school playground (I’m in my thirties now). The word “pussycat is OK” but it’s slang meaning that a person is not really scary (hence, “he’s an old pussycat, really” kind of implies pet cat rather than a tiger or something) is old fashioned. You can get away with calling a cat “Puss” but call it “Pussy” and you can guarantee sniggers every time someone says it as well as references to Mrs. Slocombe’s pussy (especially the time she ask Mr. Humphries to take his hands off her pussy).
Please never to argue that British people do not use it to mean the female genitals because any British people will laugh at you. It is true that it is less commonly used in the contemptuous way that Americans use it but British people tend to love innuendo and will often use it for comic effect.
Thank you, Myrhinne. I was interested in your saying ‘it is less commonly used in the contemptuous way that Americans use it’. What strikes me about America, as a non-American who has lived in Japan for over 40 years, is the quite extraordinary cult of hyper-masculinity – a cult that is obvious in Hollywood movies (the film about the Spartans, for example, which struck me as so obviously disgusting that I did not see it) as well as in the present race to be the Republican presidential candidate, and in Fox News, where the favoured studio design seems to be one alpha male in the centre flanked by four pairs of rather too obviously ‘lovely’ legs… it is not something that I think you see elsewhere in the world. That contemptuous use of the word surely derives from that that interest in being seen, if you are a man, as savagely male.
I might say, incidentally, that I loathe Ian Fleming, his novels, and the films that were made from them with a passion: the pervasive racism and sexism is disgusting.
Tim Harris #12
Can you provide some details?
The only reference I was able to find is Philip Stubbes, “The Anatomie of Abuses” from 1583. Well, this is not mediaeval, but still quite old. However, it’s all about a single passage (just one and no more), where the boys are discussed who “haue his pretty pussy to huggle withal, for that is the only thing he desireth”. The association with female genitals is unclear; it’s quite possible (although by no means obvious) that at this time the word was sometimes used merely as a synonym for a girl or a woman. Really hard to tell!
Are there any other old sources that would be relevant? Some dictionaries claim that the earliest meaning was “cat” and the first clear examples of using it for female genitals come from the late 19th century.
Rob #16
I’m clearly unqualified to participate in a discussion between native speakers of English about the nuances of the meaning of “pussy”. So, just a minor question: would you say that “sexually derogatory” = “sexist”? Imo, there is indeed a good sense in which using a name for a sexual organ as an insult directed to a person will always be “sexually derogatory”. But the transition to “sexist” still seems to require an additional argument – would you agree?
Ah, I think that what I’m really curious about is this: do you think that at present we have at our disposal insults which are sexually derogatory (an insult worth its name *should* be derogatory, by all means!) without being sexist/homophobic/bigoted and so on? Hmm, is a good ole “fuck you!” a reasonable candidate?
Ariel, I think you are largely, though not wholly, right. Having checked, my recalling was not as good as it might be. Though I do find this, quoted on Talking Points Memo in connection with Trump’s trumpeting of the word:
‘I would disagree with reader ST’s statement on the origins of this word.’ (ST had said that it derived from ‘pusillanimous’ and had originally no sexual overtone) ‘I’m neither a linguist nor an expert in the history of English, but as a librarian I know how to check a reference work.
‘Looking at the Oxford English Dictionary, which most consider the gold standard of historical dictionaries of the English language, the word’s history in written English goes back as early as the late 17th century, used as “coarse slang” to mean, “The female genitals; the vulva or vagina”
‘”As Fleet as my Feet Could convey me I sped; To Johnny who many Times Pussey had fed. –T. D’Urfey (1699)”‘
(Though whether the quotation from D’Urfey unambiguosly refers to the female genitals, I don’t know – I don’t have his works on my bookshelves.)
But the above is not in my Compact edition of the OED.
But having checked elsewhere, in Britain it seems it came in certain circumstances to mean an effeminate man or a harmless man (your example from Stubbes surely means simply a nubile girl – and in Stubbes’s time, the pejorative word for a nubile boy favourite was ‘ingle’), but certainly much later than Stubbes’s time or mediaeval times, so I was quite wrong there. This usage seems to have been taken into American English and then conflated with the late, and, I think, chiefly American, usage whereby it refers to the female genitals. (I might add that until I came across the American usage, the name ‘Pussy Galore’ hadn’t meant anything in particular to me.)
The word ‘puss’ or ‘pussy’, according to Skeat, is probably imitative of a cat spitting, and words resembling it can be found in such very different languages as Gaelic, Lithuanian, Swedish, Tamil and the Cashgar dialect of Afghanistan…
As for your last question, which is a good one – a lot of our cursing words have to do with parts of the body, both male and female, or activities or bodily excrements that are considered unclean. I think I would be equally offended to be called a ‘shit’ a ‘prick’ or a ‘cunt’, but surely, for obvious reasons, for a woman it would be different (and she would be unlikely to be called a ‘prick’), and the last word, when used to a woman, surely is intended to be extremely demeaning and insulting and calls up a great hinterland of sexist abuse. I confess, however, to having used ‘fuck off’ or ‘fuck you’ on occasion…
“I confess, however, to having used ‘fuck off’ or ‘fuck you’ on occasion…”, but certainly not to you, I must add!
The only time I have been so abused was when, probably 30 or more years ago, a swarm of Moonies, of various nationalities, descended on Tokyo. I was walking from Shibuya station to NHK (the Japanese equivalent of the BBC), where I was working at the time, when I was accosted by one of them, a young Englishman, probably originally from the working class. “Do you want to know how to be happy?” he asked, waving his ‘literature’. I replied, po-faced and dismissively, in, I suspect, tones that were rather too BBC, “No, thank you.” He was enraged. ‘You fucking cunt,” he shouted. I found the situation very funny, and quite unintentionally burst out laughing, and, to his credit, he found himself laughing, too… I shan’t say we parted the best of friends, but at least, after that shared recognition at the comedy of the situation, we didn’t loathe each other.
One example of early-ish British use of “pussy” (well, “puss” in this instance) to refer to female genitals is a catch (round) by the 17th century English composer Henry Purcell:
Just for perspective, one could call Donald Trump a ‘dickhead’, which is a most unflattering reference to male genitalia.
‘Bellend’ a more British version could be employed as well.
Is that the same, worse or better than calling someone a pussy?
Tim Harris #24: thank you, it’s good to know :)
This D’Urfey song – fascinating! The full text can be found here. Reading old English is a quite demanding task for me and I’m not sure at all if I get everything right. Does it refer unambigously to female genitals? My impression is that “Pussey” refers to the cat (“A pretty young Kitty she had that could Purr”), but then the cat itself is – rather unambigously, I would say – used to make a playful reference to “you know what”. Was it the poet’s original idea or something already popular at that time? I don’t know.
Be that as it may, a very interesting find!
One thing that astounds me is how many people take their own personal experience for a universal. They didn’t hear the term, therefore it wasn’t there. Other people did hear the term, so they must be younger (and maybe they are, but that may not be relevant). My mother never knew the term pussy for genitalia, and it was all over American slang long before her death. She had no idea what any of the sexual slang terms meant, but she knew every mild curse, such as Jiminy Cricket, that were euphemisms for Jesus Christ, and refused to have any of them said in her house. My husband is constantly amused by that, because he didn’t know these were euphemisms.
In short, just because you haven’t heard something doesn’t mean it isn’t there and isn’t being said to mean something that way. It may be that it isn’t in your circle, but it may be already in the society and just hasn’t been accepted into common usage (such as, people might have felt quite uncomfortable saying “pussy” that way at that time, knowing it meant that and they were polite, and also, censorship, etc). Please, please, stop assuming your experience with a word is universal.
Thanks to all for this, um, enlightened thread, especially for the Purcell, of whom I’m a great fan… “Hail, bright Cecilia…!” (I’m between two tedious scientific meetings and can’t wait for a glass of “good claret”!)
That D’Urfey item is indeed very interesting!
I think “puss” used that way was a dismissive but not full-on hateful slang word for women. Often paired with “old” I think – maybe comparable to “biddy.” Or maybe it’s ambivalent and ambiguous? I’m pretty sure I’ve seen it in reading Hardy, Gaskell, the Brontes, Dickens.
Ariel @ 22, great question. I’m going to pretty much speak off the top of my head and others can chime in if and as they wish. Despite having two teachers of English as parents I’m certainly no expert on the language; to their lasting disgust.
I think there are phrases that are clearly sexually derogatory that are not sexist – e.g. fag, which is instead homophobic. then there is the sexually connected and ever flexible ‘fuck’ and variants thereof, which has obtained a degree of flexibility of use and meaning that must makes every other word green with envy, but which is so equal opportunity offensive that it is just pure offence (when intended in that manner) without discrimination. I personally find it hard to read a non-sexist intent (conscious or otherwise) into an insult that reduces a human to a body part. Even prick, which is almost exclusively used against men is sexist IMO. What differentiates prick from pussy or cunt is that those latter words are intended to demean, not simply offend; especially so when used against a man as it reduces his status to something less than manly. That makes such insults not just merely sexist, but misogynistic. OMMV.
and @ 28
Oh. Hell. Yes. :-)
Remember this video that was floating around recently https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPlpphT7n9s ?
Try reading the lyrics again using that OP accent, it works much better than modern or RP accent. Writers of that period may have been very witty and erudite, but I laugh at anyone who claims it is high-brow culture. Peel away the beautiful use of language and half of it is the rap music video of its day. Well, maybe that’s putting it a bit strongly, but you get my drift.
The d’Urfey quite definitely refers to the female genitals, the Purcell, I think, not; though there are other Purcell songs that certainly are obscene – ‘She loves and she confesses, too’, for example (which I have found myself having to explain to young Japanese sopranos who have chosen it as a pretty song for them to sing – I look out of the window at the garden as I do so).
Whether it is personal experience or not, iknklast, I think it is pretty clear from the responses of the non-Americans to this thread that use of the word ‘pussy’ to refer to the female genitals was not until recently so common in the English-speaking world outside the States as it was in the States. Nor has my life been confined to one small circle.
Rob #32:
Yes, I agree about the words which convey “pure offence”.
My take on this is PERHAPS a bit different since I do not put that much emphasis on intent.* When judging some phrases as “sexist”, “homophobic” etc., I concentrate instead on how the phrase is standardly received, not on how it was intended. You could say, in effect, that with this point of view, it is the perspective of the audience – not of the speaker – which is treated as primary.
Still, I said “perhaps”. The reason is that your “I personally find it hard to read a non-sexist intent …” can be also understood as expressing the listener’s perspective, so I can read you as suggesting that this is your standard interpretative pattern. Indeed, in a society where such a pattern is common – where “prick” is generally received as just offending, but “pussy” or “cunt” is standardly received as demeaning, there would be a significant difference.
These fights about language can be so strange! Since I’m chronically unable to understand what it could mean that some phrases are somehow “inherently” sexist (independently of how they are standardly interpreted by the users of the given language), I’m really left with ‘what interpretative patterns prevail in a given society’ as the only criterion. Unfortunately, what follows is sometimes such a mess! At worst, it boils down to members of different linguistic communities shouting at each other “THIS is our pattern and let it prevail!!!” At best – as in this thread – you receive a collection of very interesting facts and anecdotes … which still leaves the basic question (namely, whose patterns should prevail and why) unanswered. Or am I the only one who feels lost?
*Not that the intent is completely unimportant. It is very crucial when I want to form an opinion about a given person – then, obviously, I will want to understand why she did what she did. However, assessing an expression – wondering whether, as a general rule, some phrases should be treated as bigoted and off limits – is a very different endeavor.
By the way, thanks a lot for the Shakespearean link! Ah, “from hour to hour, we ripe and ripe” :)
I wonder, frankly, if this points to a difference between American and British English. I know that historically ‘pussy’ can refer to the female sexual organ, but growing up in England never acquainted me with that meaning
Yes, I agree, it may be more common now, but the obscene meaning of ‘pussy’ was unknown when I was a kid despite the wink wink jokes in Bond etc aimed at the the sophisticated few. A friend of mine moved to the States in the 80s when he was just a kid and told me how he was picked on by some bullies who accused him of being a ‘pussy’. He was so startled by the peculiar inappropriate word, that he burst out laughing and, on his account, saw them off. It seemed to him such a surreal thing for anyone to say in anger, like being pinned to the wall by someone who snarls: ‘I think you are a snookums’.
Bound to be more used now of course although ‘pussy willow’ would not attract sniggers, and calling a cat ‘pussy’ is still unremarkable. As simple slang for vagina, I think ‘pussy’ is quite charming actually.
Ariel- you’ve got the basics down. Communication is the encoding of ideas into symbols we hope will be interpreted in such a way as to cause the recipient to understand the original idea. “Meaning” is a word that often confuses matters worse, since it seems to treat all the steps in that intersubjective process as being just one objective matter.
When we ask what something means, we might “mean” all kinds of things. What did the speaker actually intend to convey? What did I personally take from his communication? What do I think others might likely take from his communication? Which others? How ought the communication be interpreted if we apply a set of rigid interpretive rules? Which rules? Etc. And often we make all of these individual determinations based on individual others- for example, we might reason that a speaker meant to communicate a particular thing on the grounds that we think that’s how his target audience would interpret him.
And our conclusions are also based on empirical claims about each other that are often hidden. If I think you’re a bigot I’m likely to interpret your words as bigoted when there’s ambiguity… but also perhaps likely to use those words to justify thinking you’re a bigot in the first place.
It can be a real mess.