Good neighbors
I just had a very weird experience, or maybe not all that weird in one way, but pretty damn weird in any other way. Not weird given that some people are bat-loony, but weird given that some people ought to know better. (Is it possible for people who are bat-loony to know better? Is that a ridiculous incoherent idea, on a level with belief in free will? Probably no and probably yes…but then the question becomes “exactly how bat-loony are we talking about here?”)
I was walking along a residential street a few blocks from where I live (so I don’t know anyone there, I don’t recognize faces), mind elsewhere (though nowhere in particular) as usual, and suddenly some grizzled auld fella who was pottering in his garden snarled* at me as he crossed the sidewalk toward the parking strip, “What would it take to make you smile?”
I jerked to a stop and turned to stare at him in astonishment, and after mulling it for a few seconds demanded why on earth he would ask me that.
We had a nice little shouty war there on the sidewalk, for three or four or five minutes.
He was of course surprised to be answered, and did a lot of angry shouting about seeing me walking past here all the time, and I never smile, I never wave, I never say hello. I did a lot of return shouting about being allowed to walk here, and not having even been aware of him until he challenged me, and why would he expect me to be smiling as I walked up the street. He did more angry shouting about there are two sides to the street, and oh fuck off, and I never say hello. I did more repeat shouting about why would he expect me to be smiling as I walked up the street and why would he think he gets to tell me how to arrange my face. He started telling me to go away, and I kept pointing out that he had challenged me. He did more angry shouting about always seeing me walking past, and he’s sick of seeing my horrible face “like this” and he did an exaggerated sad-clown face with the mouth dragged down like Emmett Kelly. Gee I love it when people do that. He wasn’t the first. I told him that’s how my face is. He tripped up then and apologized, but quickly thought better of it and went back to angry shouting.
Here’s the thing: I’m extremely ugly, especially now that I’m 153 years old. I do have one of those downturned mouths that some people have, so I do look very grumpy when my face is in neutral position. I’ve had acquaintances helpfully point this out to me, in case I wasn’t aware of it – “Gee, you’re a lot less ugly when you smile.” Oh thanks.
So yes, I’m ugly and I look grumpy when I walk down the street. But I have this core idea that I’m allowed to do that, and that people who live along that street ought not to come running out to tell me I’m uglying up their street. I also have a core idea that I don’t have an obligation to try to look less ugly for any random gardening men who might be pottering about when I pass.
I eventually got around to asking my antagonist about this – “Do you say that to men who walk by? Do you tell men to smile as they walk past your house?” He swelled up with more outrage, and started telling me he’d been in combat, I wasn’t a woman, get away from here with my lesbian bullshit, he wasn’t afraid of any men, he was afraid of women if they really were women. After lots of shouting back and forth along these lines, he slipped up again and said “But it’s none of my business.” “Exactly!” I said. “Bye!” That was my exit line, but he shouted after me “Have a wonderful day” so I shouted back “You too” so he shouted back “That’s the first nice thing you’ve said this whole time” and I shouted back “Gee I wonder why!” and after that all I heard was muttering, so I won.
I did you know. He thought he was just going to throw a little male weight around, with no repercussions. He wasn’t expecting a Spanish Inquisition I mean an aggressive ugly ol’ broad shouting at him for five minutes.
Now here’s what I want to know. Lots of guys here. What do you think? I don’t believe for one second that he ever, ever, ever says that to men. Ever. I don’t think for a second that he thinks it’s any of his business what expression a man has on his face when walking past his house. What do you think? Would a (straight) man ever say that to a man? And has any man ever said anything like that to you?
*Update: note that he snarled. This was not a friendly or flirtatious or neighborly overture; it was angry and hostile in the opening question, and it got much more so when I replied. When I asked him why he would ask me such a question, he approached me aggressively, demanding “do you know how to smile?” There was no ambiguity about this; it was not borderline; the guy was pissed off, and nasty, and in my face. He also got very rude, very quickly, while I limited myself to insisting that he had no business telling me how to look.
No, a straight man would never say that to another man, unless he was itching for a physical altercation. My wife is occasionally harassed by dickhead males (typically older-ish men) who basically say things to her that, if said to me, could be interpreted legally as “fightin’ words.” They get away with it because they guess that they are not in physical danger and probably get off on pushing those physically smaller than them around.
I’m very glad that you gave that tool a piece of your mind.
I occasionally get told by members of the opposite sex (and the same sex, to a lesser extent) that I ought not to look so somber, but I doubt I have to hear it nearly as often as women do from men.
Ummm… maybe to a guy that I’d waved to on a regular basis and exchanged a few words with. Even then, not in those exact words, more along the lines of “you look like you’re having a rough day” and it would be because I was actually interested in how he was feeling, not how he was looking. I generally don’t get in the middle of anyone’s business male or female, unless I feel like I sort of know them.
Then again, I’d never have said that to a woman in a similar situation. Who knows, maybe she’s an angry bitter lesbian semi-man who might shiv me in a foxhole. I was in the war you know.
Seems to me it was an extremely rude way to behave to a stranger. My grandmother would not have approved. This is the kind of thing one might say to a lover but only in certain circumstances – or maybe to one’s child. Other than that – no way!
Ophelia. Dearest. You may like to believe you’re ugly, and your friends may humor you. I don’t know. All I know is that I have met you, and while you may not be a classical beauty along the lines of Angelina Jolie, you are, in fact, lovely. And I like your frowny-face. It makes you look Serious and Like Someone Who Thinks and Is Very Intelligent and Should Be Paid Attention To, which is only right because you are.
Good on you for giving Mr. Smile, Ladies! the proper amount of hell. Let me know if you ever need a companion on that route for some two-on-one street arguing action. Me and my Scots-Irish temper are at your service.
Not a guy myself, but I can say that I’ve gotten that any number of times. Especially in Capitol Hill (which runs more to LGBTQ than the rest of Seattle) and always from men over 45 or so. I’d never put this together before, but possibly they’re checking me for Lesbian Bullshit or something. Heaven forfend, right?
Apparently, I’m supposed to go around exhibiting friendly, vaguely submissive behavior to every random middle-aged-and-older male wingnut on the street because I am a goddamn vending machine for feminine charm. Bus hasn’t come and I’ve been waiting for twenty minutes in the rain? SMILE! Grrrr.
(By the way: ugly? No. Distinguished, yes.)
He was chatting you up
No but I’m frequently asked why am I constantly smiling. I’ve got the opposite problem of having one of those mouths that always curves up. But jesus can I make a mean mug. Sadly it only comes out when I genuinely want to kill a fellow human. Why I check the news on this blog if I want to look tough for the day. ;)
Michael is right, of course. ‘what would it take to make you smile’ is a weak come on (weak as in unoriginal/bad) and likely to mark the speaker as weird or queer for saying it to another man. It sounds like your neighbor expects women to be uber friendly, bubbly and cheerful. Were you 20 something, he probably would have said it with a creepy smile while puffing out his chest and trying to seem dashing or something.
Anyway, I totally think you won.
Boy, so am I. I was shaking with rage the whole time, but I walked off happy as Larry, and now I just couldn’t be more content. :- )
God I feel sorry for his neighbors. Eeeugh.
Come to think of it, I think that’s the block…yes. An opposite type of experience. A winter day two or three years ago, when there was a lot of fresh snow, which is rare here. I was walking along in a similar way, but enjoying the beautiful snow scene, and there was a little boy struggling with something – a sled or something like that. His bigger brother was a few yards up the street. I offered to help him and he wavered, looking flustered and frustrated the way little kids do, and then said no, and I kept going. His brother came along and said “Thank you though.” And then said he’d probably have to do it for him, with a nice little “kid brothers, eh” look. This kid was maybe 10 or 12. I just thought that was so sweet – he thought I might be embarrassed or hurt that the little kid had just said “no.” It bowled me over. I pretended to take it in stride, and just grinned at him, but I felt like giving him a Thoughtful Kid medal.
Would he ever say that to a male stranger he noticed walking down the street? Of course not. I think it would be very unlikely for him to say that to another man unless the nosy gardener is gay (not likely with his anti-lesbian rant) and then maybe he would. As it is, he probably only tries to control unknown women and youth who come strolling by minding their own business. What a control freak!
My intuition tells me that it would be much less likely for a straight guy to say this to a man than to a woman.
‘Course, my intuition’s been wrong before.
Thanks Dana and Cam! Actually I made the whole thing up, just felt like fishing.
Hahahahaha.
Mmmmyeah I don’t think he was flirting. Maybe he thought he was “bantering”…but I really doubt flirting.
I hope I wrecked his afternoon. I hope he’s sitting on his cromulent porch still muttering.
[laughs cruelly]
In the UK the similar catchphrase is “cheer up, love, it’ll never happen.” I’ve never heard of any variant of the phrase being said to a man. Search for it on google and you’ll find a great many women who share your exasperation. Like this one. I’ve always assumed it’s an idiotic chat up line.
Ophelia, you look perfectly fine in that Stockholm street photo on the web.
Perhaps you’ve been mixing with the wrong sort recently – like, for instance street lunatics like the one in this story.
I have occasionally been commented on in a similar fashion by people in the street (men) and have generally taken it to be a sign of mental instability in the commenter rather than a useful pointer towards my own demeanor.
It may be different in other environments, but if I got this kind of comment from a man around here, I’d be wary it was a drunk or yob looking for a fight. Variant form of the same behaviour, maybe.
Stephen, I know, I’ve had that one. Kensington High Street (yes, it stuck in my mind).
For whatever it’s worth, I walk with my head down deep in thought a lot and sometimes my posture is bad (hunching shoulders). As a fresh faced white graduate student walking hunched over and looking down the street in the Bronx in my twenties, I have had several local older (but not extremely old or anything) black guys tell me to stop looking down and stop slouching. I take it to be similar in that they take my posture to be a signal of a lack of confidence or depression/disengagement from my surroundings, etc. I was never really offended by it. I took it as meant in good cheer and as a surprising signal of concern for a stranger to offer. One time it did even memorably cheer me up. But I don’t think that has anything to do with how you should respond with the different dynamics in your case.
Damn frowns! Get off my lawn!
That is the most astonishing behavior I’ve heard about in a long, long time. Wow. I would have paid good money to be there and watch you tell that guy to fuck right off – you’re bad-ass O.
No, no straight man would ever say that to another man (excepting the touchy-feely-therapy-type guys). It’s a outrageous intrusion reserved only for women.
That’s really interesting, Dan. Presumably the racial aspect changes the dynamic – sort of like friendly helpful insider advice to an apparent outsider?
Dang, I’ll start talking about The Male Gaze soon.
WOW. Outrageous.
I agree with you that a guy would not say that to another guy, except, possibly, if the target was a kid or an elderly person. So basically I’m agreeing with you – a man like that would only say that to someone he perceived himself to be less powerful than himself.
The ridiculous thing is, if this asshole is so bothered by your non-smiling face over and over, why didn’t he just have the sense to say something that might have made you smile?
Clearly, making you smile was not his aim. His aim was to make someone else feel bad.
Also, you’re not ugly. I have no trouble looking at a picture of you. I just looked at your facebook pics to be doubly sure. Nope, not ugly. So there, that’s science.
I also tend not to smile a lot naturally, and it shows up in photos of me. Sometimes I see pics of myself and I think ‘hmm, I was happier than that.’ My family has noticed it and teases me about it a little.
But it’s O.K. for us men to look and be serious. You ladies are supposed to be smiling and thinking about kittens.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMb8Csll9Ws
It’s way creepy that he’s been keeping track of how often I go past his house without smiling. Urrgh. It means I have to do what he so civilly suggested and walk on the other side. I often chose that option anyway, but I like that (his) side of the street, apart from his house. I guess I’ll just walk smartly across the street at his border then walk smartly back again when I’ve passed his house. I’m also strongly tempted to walk past his house leering insanely. “You want smile? I’ll give you smile.”
I was always aware of the house, and its surroundings, just not of him. It’s a slum. There’s junk lying around, and shrubs weirdly amputated into meaningless baseball-bat limbs. It’s repellent. Maybe he’s been reading my mind.
Plus, he doesn’t have any chickens! More and more people around here have chickens – they do, Cam – but not this guy, oh no, he’s too good to have chickens. Snob.
There are ducks in the next block.
Chalk up an antipodean no.
Certainly, you’d never see a man saying anything so antagonistic.
I don’t think anything quite like that has happened to me since I was a teenager. When you’re a teenager, everybody decides that you need their advice.
Once I was frowning over a book at Tim Horton’s. Some old ladies recognized me as a regular and bought me a coffee to cheer me up. But that was a kind gesture, not a heckle.
I get this from my manager at work occasionally. not to the point of having full on shouting matches, but it generally ends fairly viciously. he swears he’s straight, but it does seem to come off as a bad line now and then.
I’m an XY type. I can report the only time men said shit like that to me was when I was like ten and under.
Oh, and I pretty much wanted to punch them in the face at the time. Still kinda do.
PSA to old farts: don’t say stupid shit like ‘Oh, what are you scowling about shorty, it can’t be that bad, I was in the war, y’know’. First, you don’t bloody well know how bad it is*, you presumptuous old coot. Second, it just makes people want to drop out of school, become juvenile delinquents, and make a hobby out of beating on people like you with a tire iron**.
Speaking as someone who’s partway to old fart himself now, I’m still trying to keep that in mind, myself.
Oh. And yes, a few women have also said things containing the instruction ‘Smile’ in them to me. But very few, and generally nowhere nearly as obnoxiously. At least one was flirtatious, hardly insulting, another from an aunt-type-character who at least knew me and had some business doing so. The third I can think of, okay, mebbe close to equally as obnoxious, and again, when I was quite young.
(*/See also Watterson, Bill: “Those who get nostalgic about childhood were obviously never children.”)
(**/No, I didn’t. But I sure as hell did want to, each time, there.)
Aw, now, c’mon. You don’t look a day over 120, cutie!
(ducks)
Sounds to me like he was flirting with you. No, I’m serious.
He would definitely never say that to a guy, because he’s not interested in flirting with guys.
… oh, and seriously, good on ya, OB, for telling him where to put it. I suppose it’s not quite the same thing. But still, somewhere, the put-upon kid of my preadolescence is smiling and living that moment vicariously.
No, really. The tone was wrong. I know the wording sounds flirtatious, but the tone and posture etc were definitely hostile. I was on the bit of sidewalk directly in front of his house at the time, so he perhaps thought for that second or two he had every right to tell me off.
I’m sure if he flirts with anyone it’s with squirrels or bats or the UPS truck.
I have had similar comments from all genders and orientations, including (though only rarely) from strangers. It can be an attempt to open a conversation and not necessarily one with sexual overtones. From strangers it represents a level of familiarity that often makes me uncomfortable (and which I am unable to engage in myself), but sometimes I find the resulting engagement not so unpleasant after all and sometimes I regret my own reticence. Such “inappropriate” familiarity is probably more often engaged in by males, as some females actually do appear to like it and it therefore provides a higher frequency of successful mating than my own unduly risk-averse strategy has been (not that I have been unhappy with the eventual outcome).
Thanks AJ. Same here. All the times when I didn’t do that.
I wasn’t going to at first. I havered. I teetered. Then I blew.
I havered and teetered again after the first minute or so, when he retreated to his yard telling me to go away. It seemed slightly crazy to continue at that point. Then after a few seconds it didn’t, because I hadn’t yet made myself entirely clear. So I did that.
:- )
This happens to me at least a few times a month and I’m a man.
In my case colleagues, even ones I may have just met, which is really disconcerting, comment that I frown too much. They don’t know it, but I am on the autism spectrum and my interpersonal skills aren’t great. So they are probably right – though I fail to see how it’s anyone’s business how much I frown.
I’ve learned to be extra cautious when I interact with people that I don’t say anything inappropriate, so it’s puzzling to me that people don’t think twice about making little comments like that.
When I ask why they would say something like that, most people have an awkward but good-natured response. They just think it’s ok to tell others to …cheer up! Perhaps it is. I know a lot of nuance escapes me. Perhaps it’s banter, what do I know.
Anyway, the guy you mention sounds like a complete ass. He made an offensive and inappropriate remark and instead of taking it back he went on the offensive.
Ophelia,
Just possibly, the ‘grizzled auld veteran’ thought you needed cheering up or a lesson in ‘neighborliness’, his attitude might have neen motivated by a charitable impulse, not esthetical considerations, some people are like that. I’m certainly not suggesting that you have any obligation to acknowledge the presence of other people or that he had any right to approach you.
I usually wave to grizzled old men that I see in their gardens since I’m a grizzled old man myself.
This is certainly the most bizarre encounter I’ve ever heard of. Sorry for your encounter with “douche-baggery personified.”
D, no, autism spectrum or not, I think you have it right and they have it wrong. I mean, with people who know each other well, it’s a different story (although even then – it’s certainly always possible to get it wrong), but other than that? No.
One, people have no clue what’s going on with strangers and near-strangers, so no, it’s not at all appropriate to make comments like that.
Two, it just does amount to saying “hey you look ugly right now, look the way I want you to look.”
I think it’s one of those things that get blunted by custom, so that lots of people just don’t realize how rude it is. But they ought to.
Yes, several times. Dunno why, though. More so when I was younger. On the other hand, quite a lot of strangers smile at me. Dunno why either. Maybe for the same reason.
RJW – come on, don’t be silly. I was there. I’m not such an idiot that I can’t detect a friendly (if clumsy) overture. No, your interpretation is not possible – he snarled at me. Why offer an opposite interpretation when I was there and you weren’t?
It’s of course possible that some overtures of that kind are as you say, but you’re not in a position to know that it’s possible that this one was. Jeez.
Oh, wow. That is really unspeakably rude and offensive.
I think you’re quite brilliant, Ophelia. Haven’t seen you in person, but it is quite hard to like how you’ve described yourself. It can’t, sometimes, be helped when other people say hellaciously bad-tempered things about us, but there’s really no need for us to join the chorus, eh?
See what happens when you don’t have Jesus in your heart Ophelia? If only you’d let the lamb of God nestle you’d be all shiny and tinkly!
Oh wait, that’s bullshit.
Must be a male thing. Some sense of entitlement or privilege that confers the ability to ask a perfect stranger why they are not comporting in a way the entitled wants. Only when entitled is man and stranger is woman of course. Weirdo, perving on Ophelia regularly and keeping track of her facial expressions and demeanor then deciding he didn’t like it, and he’d let her know.
I would have to hear his vocal delivery before I could say anything about his possible motives. Whatever they were, you obviously surprised him and he had no follow-up but to return your anger.
I’m from the ‘burbs south of Seattle and I have a face that is not smiley when in repose. I’ve been asked/told many times to smile or cheer up. Mostly by women, but sometimes by men- always those who know me a little. Some called me Mr. Spock when I was younger and I didn’t mind. I’ve heard the old ‘takes fewer muscles to smile than to frown’ dozens of times and have a standard response: takes none to relax my face and do neither.
I’m also told that I’m angry when I’m not. It seems that when I am speaking passionately it comes across as anger to about half of the listeners. I’ve become more aware of that as I mature and can sometimes mitigate the damage.
I work with two women who are constant loud laughers, even when it is inappropriate. I’m tempted to say something, but always restrain myself. I work at a large company where we are expected to be passionate about our mission, yet it is somehow taboo to express concern, disagreement, frustration or anger even when appropriate. No one criticizes the laughers, because that is “positive” but my constructive feedback is “negative”.
About a year ago my Director even had us take a course on “respectful communication”. When I asked the instructor about respectfully expressing concern, disagreement, frustration or anger I got a runaround.
It seems that corporate policy sets up the same environment that the religious want- no criticism of beliefs
Fuck him and the horse he rode in on.
So I’m rereading what I’ve written, and I’m not happy with it. What I meant to say was, the quality of your mind prohibits any form of ugly about you.
OK, so now you’re smiling.
No man would say that to another man unless he was hitting on him. Generally. None of his fucking business.
I am suspicious of people who walk down the street all smiley and happy. Loonies.
Did he try any of that stuff before getting pissy? Not that it would obligate anyone to respond, but somehow I doubt he makes a habit of smiling and waving at passersby.
Buford…eek. Constant loud laughter at close quarters? Eeeek. My sympathies. I worked with some people like that one summer – outdoors most of the time, but also in a crew truck. It was very trying. (Not least because I prefer people to laugh when something is actually funny, which rules out constant laughter. Srsly. People who laugh constantly have shitty senses of humor.)
Aw shucks Marta.
No but I tell you what – I think he sat down in a rocking chair on the front porch at the end of our little exchange. I think he has some kind of fantasy that this is Macon Georgia ca. 1934 and he’s Atticus Finch and we’re all neighbors and sit on our porches and chat with passersby. Very pretty, except that nobody does that, and his place is more Tobacco Road than To Kill a Mockingbird and he’s more Mayella’s father than he is Atticus Finch. Not to mention the fact that I’m not aware of ever having laid eyes on him before.
That was the first weird bit – he first talked to me as if we’d been in the middle of a conversation, while I was thinking “who the fuck are you?” But of course I’ve figured it out now – he’s been watching me all this time, so it’s like stupid people with movie stars – they think the movie stars know them as well as they know the movie stars. He’s been watching me, so he thinks we know each other. Whoooooooooooo.
I was told to smile three or four times last week by men while working at a conference. I have never been told to smile by a stranger on the street though, so it was probably the fact that I was working that made it ok for them to demand a smile.
Funny story, although from American sitcoms I assumed this sort of stuff went on all the time across the water.
When I’m deep in thought I look angry, apparently, so people feel disinclined to engage me. Probably let’s me get more thinking done, but sometimes I’m just thinking about whether dolphins think humans should all cheer up, so it would bear interrupting.
It reminds me of (the late) Bill Hicks (some swearing for those who object…then again, it’s just language):-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xpYAs94ppk
Dear Ophelia
I would like to confirm that the man’s comment to you was generated by a social rule that he adopted for himself w/regard to you, specifically, the rule that HE IS A MAN and he can say whatever he wants to whoever he wants to say it to. It’s an absolutely entitled statement of power. And then he got enraged b/c you broke his rule and talked back. As we say in Mexico, he is mal educado (he ain’t been raised right). Or he might have some kind of disorder or brain problem from the wars. It’s sick. And he was very very rude to you. To an extreme. It almost sounds like my stepsons’ grandfather except he lives a bit further down the street. Just an intrusive entitled really stupid man. And far too familiar, if you ask me. Walking on the sidewalk in front of his house does not constitute permission to tutoyer you.
I have learned to wear my normal face plus a little bit of game face in Mexico City, no smiley face. Mexicans think Americans are loony and fakey (among other things) with our smiling all the time. Just think, in Mexico no one would talk trash to you. Instead they would think you the wisest and smartest person on the sidewalk, and cast their eyes down out of respect. PS You aren’t ugly. You are fresh-faced, due to your constant walking around. It is not ugly to be a serious person.
Despite your win, I’m sorry you had to experience that, Ophelia.
I think you’re right in suspecting that he wouldn’t say that to a man, or to be more precise, to any man whom he suspects might have the same easy propensity for aggression. His instinct to avoid getting his arse kicked is probably in better condition than his polite discourse control.
I’m speculating about so many possible reasons/excuses. A lonely old guy, angry at the world? Might he have been ill? More than his obvious need for confrontation and lack of basic civility implies? The unembarrassment at being so willfully and aggressively rude is baffling to me.
What a bizarre story! But it’s certainly a “man” thing, I think. Elizabeth had a similar experience when she was at the Rehab Centre in Halifax. She was in a wheelchair, and had to be taken over to the hospital to see a doctor. A porter was sent to push her over. She was not very happy. In fact, she was very upset. The man said to her, as he came to pick her up, “Well, you might at least smile!” Elizabeth gave him a piece of her mind, and told him she wasn’t there to make his day, that he had a job to do, so just do it, and don’t speak to me again! And that was that! I don’t I’d have spent any time with the old fool, though, I’d have sworn at him and walked on, I think. And I’ve seen your picture. You’re not ugly. And 153 isn’t old. Try 170!
Odd, a very similar thing happened to me today — random man walking past says “It’s not that hot, you should smile!” Sadly, though, I didn’t respond as I should’ve (ie, like you did) because it was, in fact, that fucking hot. Plus I was sitting on a bench reading and he startled me.
Finally something I am actually an expert on!
I have had almost this exact experience happen at least half a dozen times in my life. See, I’m not all that attractive either I have autism and I almost never smile. My neutral facial expression is (I have been told) a frown, I have tried for years to learn how to smile and my best efforts tend to scare people. Multiple times while I was in high school or younger I would be almost accosted while walking to school people practically demanding that I “cheer up” and “smile”.
I will say its only happen3ed to me once while i was an adult, and while I am not positive I think the person was trying to be friendly.
Both men and women have done it, but it has always been someone over the age of 60. So I think it might be an old person thing.
Interesting question there, Ophelia. I really don’t know if men say that to men. However, I do know that I’ve had that said to me in the past, by women, if I recall correctly. Perhaps there was a man in there, possibly. Honestly I can’t say for sure. But I’m sure at least two or three times I’ve heard that from women.
Aside: Actually, for completely unrelated reasons (not the scolding), I tend to smile a lot more than I used to, but I don’t (and wouldn’t) do it because I’m *expected* to.
I’m tending to think it’s not necessarily a male-imposing-on-female thing, although probably there is some of that in there. I think it’s more of an generally-imposing-person-imposing-on-random-people thing.
I don’t think he would have challenged a man in that way, and if he had I’m pretty certain he would have backed down immediately if he had been answered. The only time I’ve been challenged on the street has been when I get abuse for being gay.
And I’ve only ever seen Facebook photos, but I too don’t think you’re ugly =P. You certainly have a great voice on the radio!
I think you are close when you mentioned Atticus Finch. It’s the sort of thing that happened all the time in the small Southern town where I was raised. I had quite an adjustment when I moved to Los Angeles in i960. It was something an older person might say to a younger one, not sex related at all. I suspect that his reaction was a result of breaking the frame he thought he was in, kind of a “Huh!” reaction. I don’t know where you live, but the whole thing sounds very out of context for any modern city. Perhaps the gentleman was only loosely connected to here and now.
Seattle-ites weird me the fuck out. I felt more comfortable in dodgy DC neighborhoods with drug dealers and gang members than in a lot of places in Seattle–the Ave comes to mind. Bad situations were easy to predict and avoid. Here, strangers are more extroverted and it comes off as eccentric and a little crazy. Is the Northwest a breeding ground for serial killers, like my car mechanic insists?
Maybe after a few years I’ll either get used to it or become it–whatever “it” is.
Agh.
It should come as no surprise that men who don’t know each other don’t presume to comment on each other’s appearance or presume to prescribe each other’s behaviour or mood (unless, as mentioned above, they want to kick something off). Unfortunately this common-sense approach isn’t always extended to women, especially by men from a bygone age where their opinion was the one that mattered because, goddamit, I have a handful of Japanese shrapnel up my arse, and women were there to make the tea and smile. Sorry you had this experience Ophelia but damn, I wish I could’ve been there to see your response. One thing that drives me batshit is strangers getting stuck into your business or telling you off (my favourite is people walking past my house and complaining that my dog barks at them – protip: dogs bark, but if you fuck off instead of standing their whinging, she’ll stop!).
I’ve had a somewhat similar experience at the hands of some friends. I’ve struggled with depression and an overactive mind my whole life and used to spend ages frowning over books or walking/sitting around aimlessly, frowning over some knot in my mind. I’ve lost count of the amount of times I’ve heard a well-meaning friend say (with obvious sympathy and good intention, it must be said) “Smile, mate” or “Cheer up, it may never happen!” or something of that variety. Well, here’s the thing: I’ll smile when I’m happy and for all you know it already did fucking happen. I’d prefer, if you’re not going to leave me in my version of peace, that you asked how I was feeling or if anything was bothering me, instead of using some platitude that sounds like you care, but makes you look as if you’re primarily concerned with how I am making you feel at this particular moment, you selfish arse.
OK, well, that’s my contribution to the Group for today.
Ok, I’m younger than Ophelia, and have had this happen regularly throughout my life. Today, in fact, in another modern city, on the other side of the country, from a man who was under forty. Yes, there is a certain subset of men who feel they are entitled to a woman’s attention, whatever she might be doing or thinking about that doesn’t include him. It doesn’t necessarily have anything to do with flirting, although it can be.
The problem is that there’s this bullshit notion permeating our culture that women are supposed to smile, especially at men. And when you don’t live up to that expectation then you’re viewed as some kind of abnormal freak.
I am an (East) Indian guy and people have told me back in India to ‘Smile more often, life aint that bad’ Not directly to my face, but in ‘goodbye and good luck in new job’ notes, or to common friends etc. Both men and women. Even in the US, I am the guy ‘with a serious look in the face’. It doesnt help that I am really a serious guy who doesnt take no shit in general.. from bosses or others at work, or traditional society in general. I am going for a face transplant :-D
Disclaimer: my personal preferences about how other people arrange their faces are worth exactly nothing, and they don’t entitle me to lecture strangers. Nor could I imagine having the nerve or urge to do so.
But. . . smiley-faced people walking alone down the street irritate me. Of course, sometimes it’s a genuine loon having a conversation with an imaginary friend, and they can’t help it. But often (this is Burlington Vermont, after all) it seems to me to be some granola-crunchy person making a great big public deal about their affected public happiness. It strikes me as smug, and suspect. Yes, I realize this may all be a story I’m making up in my head. I don’t get it, though. . . I don’t want people to be able to read my current temperament from my face when I’m walking down the street. Since I have a tendency to let my irritation or disapproval show (well, I’m cranky and cynical by nature) I have to work really hard to minimize it.
I also have a neutral frown, so I got a lot of this sort of thing in my youth from my male co-workers (of whom there were many – the ratio was about 50:1 among electrical engineers in the early 1980s). I am by nature hopeless at picking up social clues, so I did not ascribe ulterior motives at the time, and after many years of being alternately teased or ignored by my peers, it was a rather pleasant change to have people being nice to me.
When I was growing up, conventional social behaviour was that it was a woman’s responsibility to dress to please men, which meant being attractive, but not too sexy (except for special occasions). I like to think that this sort of attitude has declined over the years, though I was taken aback recently to hear a co-worker talking about women in the workplace who had “let themselves go” – whatever that means.
Okay, I see this scene in a movie — a minor highlight in character development, something about a strong woman not taking any more crap, maybe ending up with you and Kathy Bates in a car driving over his rocking chair. I loved that you gave him the hell he so richly deserved. Deep down, he may have enjoyed it, too, because it sounds like he was looking for a confrontation — or, perhaps, some attention. You walked into some internal dialogue he was having with the world in his head: it’s good for him to get out of his head.
I mean, if he knew how to deal with real people and values friendliness, he would be friendly, damn it. He would have formed an easy habit of saying a nice but casual “good morning!” to anyone he recognizes as a neighbor. No demands, no interrogation, no personal comments, no brooding over responses or lack of responses. That’s what a normal person would have done. Of course. You would have mumbled ‘morning’ and there’s an end of it.
If this were a movie, though, it would not be a romance. No. There would be more confrontations ands you would eventually end up as his one and only friend and take in his dog when he died — upon which you would discover that he had either been in a concentration camp, or ran a concentration camp, and there would be some deep theme the audience would now Get.
(And I like the way you look. That’s not sexist or lookist, I hope, for I am your age, and female, and I also value you for your mind, you know.)
Shorter gardening guy: “I’m going to be rude about your supposed rudeness!”
Stephen Gaffney,
Just to counter your anecdote(s), the only time I can remember that kind of phrase being uttered, it was a woman to a man (although the “love” or equivalent was omitted, obviously). I can remember it clearly because I was depressed myself at the time and also thought “what if some tragic circumstance had affected his life?”. It just seemed like such a potent foot-in-mouth opportunity, let alone any considerations of how someone should normally feel!
Ophelia! You’re not ugly at all! Why on Earth would you say such a thing? I do hope you were being tongue-in-cheek. (Not, of course, that there’s anything wrong with being ugly).
It sounds to me like that guy is just an angry, bitter arsehole. We all have our problems and irritations but most of us are mature enough not to lash out at strangers like that.
Yes, I (a male) get that same crap once in a while because I am not inclined to walk around with a smile plastered across my face for no reason. Even when I have a reason to smile, I tend not to broadcast it because I don’t fucking feel like it. I find that the more people bug me about it, the *less* I am inclined to smile, with or without cause.
No, I don’t find this sort of thing happening to men often. I am not personally aware of another man who gets this.
And no, I don’t imagine for a moment that men get this the same or worse than women do. I think there is an even stronger Social Expectation — in the USA, that is, where I am almost but not quite qualified to say the first thing about all this — that women should be bouncing around with smiles across their faces at all hours, with or without any reason to be smiling.
If you must carry around a persistent need to see smiles on all the faces around you, go join a school of dolphins or surround yourself with jack-o-lanterns.
I hereby issue a pre-emptive fuck the fuck off to the next person who Socially Expects me or anyone else to smile, and I salute you, Ophelia, for pushing back against this petulant cretin.
A man would never say that to another man because men are prone to be dicks. Women are usually assumed to be polite and friendly and thus open to social interaction. Note that a woman could say that to a man, or another woman, without any particular concerns. Maybe he was just lonely and wanted to interact with someone socially, and because you’re female he assumed he could speak to you without issuing a challenge. That’s not quite the same thing as assuming he could throw around his male weight without repercussions.
I can totally dig somebody saying to a complete stranger, “What would it take to make you smile?” What I can’t grok is shouting it at you. Isn’t the first response, “For you to stop shouting at me?”
“Hi there. I’m Mr. McGrumpypants and I’m going to yell at you until you smile!”
I guess the correct response would be to yell back, “In Russia, smile yells at you!”
I always get “cheer you it may never happen” from both men and women but mainly women. It has happened as you (the speaker) exists. I always reply that I have just been to a funeral an obvious lie considering the clothes I’m wearing but at least they get all apologetic afterwards.
Cheer up. D’oh!
We should organize a huge parade of people wearing the frowny masks from Pink Floyd’s The Wall down his street for several hours.
I get all sorts when I go out for a walk.I’ve had a tattooed up biker cross the street to avoid me, have been followed across an oval by a helicopter’s searchlight, and variously ignored. I usually walk along thinking about things (usually something I’ve been arguing about, or writing, or just trying to come up with a nice pithy turn of phrase).I don’t really like it when people act scared of me, but I guess it’s their prerogative and it’s not like they’re doing anything to me. I have the evil goatee, and my eyebrows are starting to grow devil horns, and I spent some of my formative years with people who turned out to be murderers, or crims or whatnot, so some of the spooky body language (not broadcasting intent etc) has probably rubbed off (no, I do not have a criminal record).On the other hand, I usually get on pretty well with the seniors out and about, and doggies seem to like me, which is always good.Actually! I just remembered…
Monday past I came stomping out down from a path out of some of Adelaide’s nastiest suburbs after a nice long walk, and this dude that was a dead ringer for Chris Stedman was walking the other way. There was plenty of room for him to pass, but he pretended to have something else to do while staggering off a few metres into no-where until I passed him, allowing him to continue.I felt like saying ‘hipster dude, I’m not gonna kill ya!’, but it probably would have scared him, making his trip into the wild yonder a little more daunting. Was one of the few occasions of being seen as boogey man that was funny. Hee hee.My instinct is, that if I passed by crazy ‘you’re not smiling’ dude, he’d want to be friends or something – the ‘you’re just like me (please confirm me)’ macho bs. I get that sometimes from middle-aged blokes.The people you meet on walks can be funny.
Oooo….
My lines got all mashed up into big paragraphs.
Dentists (and orthodontists) across the world are going to hate you now, Ophelia.
I’m older, male, gay (not that I wear a badge or anything) and apparently look grumpy most of the time. I’ve certainly had ‘cheer up mate’ remarks from strangers, always male except once a woman selling ‘lucky’ white heather approached me with ‘buy this love, you look as if you need some luck!’. My response (I swear I don’t normally speak like this) was something like ‘Madam; Do not Presume to Regulate my Happiness’ – her response ‘Oooo hoity toity’ I thought was pretty good.
I also get into altercations with street charity collectors and Big Issue sellers who seem to be trained to not allow one to pass without a challenge; I usually go with ‘I don’t believe we have been introduced’, but that probably only works in London, and if one is past a certain age.
have been followed across an oval by a helicopter’s searchlight
What’s the proper etiquette for that? Do you stop and look up at the helicopter, or does that only make you seem guilty? Do you just keep walking and pretending you don’t notice?
Meta: It’s cool that you would bother to have this sort of interaction with a stranger. I’m perfectly happy to argue with a stranger at any time, but it seems to me that most people aren’t, unless they are also prepared to get physical, which I am not.
I am a man, and, like Ophelia, I habitually look unhappy – just the set of my face. Contrary to what Michael says, I have received similar comments to Ophelia from other men. Usually in a light-hearted way (or so they seem to feel) – never really with aggresssion.
I regularly say “give us a smiley, I know there’s one in theresomewhere.” to male collegues (sometmes chucking them under the chin for emphasis) and i’m as straight as they come. so all the commentators who said a straight man wouldent are plain wrong.
“give us a….. oh you get it
I have had this quite a lot, always from men older than myself. I take it to mean “As a woman you are put on this Earth to be decorative and make me feel good, so get on and do your job.”
In fact someone told me just last week to cheer up, that it couldn’t be that bad, and was somewhat abashed when I told him that the reason I was frowning was that I had been hit by a truck.
You ask for male experience, but you forgot to ask for angry experience.
I do get comments on not smiling. Even my own mother has trouble seeing if I’m angry or not. I had deeper wrinkles between my eyebrows while frowning at a pretty early age.
Someone told me I have a good face for rock music. :p
I do not get angry comments about it, though. Nobody seems to look at my frowning face and think “let’s start a fight”.
Hello everybody, (waving to all as I don’t think I’ve posted here before. Have been reading ages, though)
I tend to look angry when I concentrate. Like … really angry. So see me cooking, riding my horse, putting on make-up … I will tend to look aggressive ;-) I never really thought about it until my son, who was around four years old at the time, said ‘Mum, why are you always angry when you brush me teeth?’.
‘Ermmm … I’m not at all angry, I’m just concentrating’ – ‘I don’t think so – you look really angry’. THAT made me think about my facial expression whilst toothbrushing my offspring :-D And I still make a mental note of relaxing my features when I help him with stuff.
I’ve never had grown ups comment on my angry-face. They probably didn’t dare!
I’ve had that happen to me. My face isn’t particularly frowny but I am a bit oblivious while walking – I find it a good time to think – and I have habitually watched my feet ever since stepping on a hamster in primary school.
You may speak for yourself, of course if you wish, but you do not speak for me
@Valdyr – I was going to make a pair of six-shooters with my hands, but thought better of it. Still, it didn’t seem to make the police on the next few street corners particularly personable.
Walking to work at 3am used to be so much fun. :D
Well, a dude at work (whom I don’t know, but frequently pass in the hall) said something sort of like that to me once, only it was far less rude. Something more like, “Hey, doesn’t hurt to smile” or something like that. I don’t remember the exact words, I think it was even less rude than that, so I just kind shrugged it off. Mildly annoying though, as it really isn’t his damn business.
So yeah, I guess men do occasionally say things like that to other men. Which is not to say that this guy didn’t feel like he had permission and/or felt more motivated to say that because you are a woman — I don’t think that is a crazy hypothesis by any means.
Yeah, this. That makes a lot of sense. When I think back to the time recently that guy at work said it to me, it was clearly pretty light-hearted, which went a long way to making me feel only mildly annoyed at the intrusion rather than offended or anything. In contrast, it sounds like this pottering gentleman was being a bit aggressive about it, and THAT may likely have a lot to do with gender dynamics.
I’ve occasionally(although not for years) been told by other males to “cheer up, it might never happen”, generally when I’m concentrating on something. I think this is a slightly different experience to yours since at least in the UK it’s a recognised (if somewhat antiquated expression), but it is still rather aggressive when used by a stranger.
It’s aggressive for at least three reasons. First, there’s every chance that it *has* already happened. This person knows nothing about me or my circumstances. Second, it’s nobody’s business but my own whether or not I look happy. Third, how am I supposed to respond? I’ll tell you how: I’m supposed to acquiesce to this person’s wishes and immediately look happier. Because he has decided I should. If I don’t, he’ll likely act offended and possibly become belligerent. While I’m not scared of confrontation, I resent being put in a position where I’m forced into either some kind of weird submissive display or to be drawn into a confrontation I didn’t want or invite.
I think males do sometimes do something similar to your experience, but nobody has ever done it to me in quite such a random fashion (walking down the street). I’ve always been in a pub or restaurant or something.
Well, at the risk of throwing more gasoline onto the fire…
My dad said that to me just the other day…”Don’t look so glum. Smile!”
Of course, the reason I was looking glum is that my mom’s in the hospital with a fractured hip, which means I had to move dad in with me because he can’t get along on his own (like most 87-year-olds); plus I was worried about getting him to the doctor for a check-up because he’s having abnormal shakiness, and then to the hospital to see if my mom’s heart rhythm abnormality which they only discovered during surgery had been corrected … and on and on.
There’s something about old people and frowning. It gets their juices flowing.
What a dick! I wouldn’t say that to anyone, male or female, if I didn’t know them. If I knew someone and they looked glum or down or otherwise pre-occupied then maybe, to draw their attention to me, but to a stranger, that’s just weird. I suppose it could be thought of as a conversation starter but if so, it’s a pretty dumb one, after all, what’s wrong with “hello”?
I might say something like that to one of my students, but that’s a whole different situation. On the street – no. I don’t even say that to anybody – I don’t know them, they don’t know me, so who cares? He was just being the alpha male, as you say.
I love the idea of a parade down his street in frowny masks (# 74). I’ve been thinking similar things – I should set my face in a grotesque all-teeth-bared rictus while passing his house, for one. (I checked the look in the mirror and my god it’s scary.)
True about gee, why not just say hi. I didn’t think of that until later, but indeed – he could of course have just said hi and I would have said hi and that would have been that.
But the deal is, this has been building up for a long time; he’s been watching me pass his house without smiling and building up a big old fury about it. He apparently isn’t tuned in enough to realize that I was not aware of this – so he thought he was continuing an existing war of some kind that I knew all about, while I thought he was being insanely random out of nowhere. Which is sort of funny in a way.
Eric –
I know. I almost did. I usually do. But it was so rude and so abrupt and so…so opposed to my continuing freedom to walk around, that I decided to ask him why he would ask me such a question. He could have answered in such a way that I didn’t spend any more time with him, but he chose not to – instead he chose to walk toward me angrily demanding “Can you smile?” Given that, walking on ceased to be an option. I could have, but it would have bugged the shit out of me forever after. I know this from experience. He picked a fight, so I needed to engage.
My face at rest is slightly frowny, so I’ve had many people ask me what’s wrong when there’s been absolutely nothing wrong. Even if something were wrong, it would be none of their business. I’ve also had people command me to smile, so I either ask them “why?”, or give them a big fake grimace, while wanting to punch all their teeth out. I’ve tried to cultivate a passable semi-grin when I’m not doing anything so people will quit bugging me.
Hey I’ve got an idea – why don’t we all just start wearing a cloth over our faces when we go out, with a slot for the eyes.
Wait…
Never had that from a stranger, but friends and colleagues have told me that on first acquaintance they felt slightly intimidated by my apparently dour habitual expression. I’m not really dour, but I guess I look that way. However, an elderly neighbour with whom I exchange pleasantries did once step out of his garden and ask if everything was alright. I must have looked grimmer than usual and I admitted that I was feeling down because I was fully expecting tht my dog would have to be put down that day. He patted me on the shoulder and said, ‘Anything I can do just let me know.’ I thanked him and moved on but a few paces later I realised I was tearing up, which is unusual for me. (That was six months ago and the dog is still going strong after treatment)
Obviously, not the same thing. It was genuine concern, not a criticism. But I guess men can say that sort of thing as long as there is a presumption, if not of friendship, then at least of established friendly relations.
No-one has ever used the old cliche ‘It takes seventeen muscles to smile and forty-three muscles to frown’, but I’m waiting with the response of ‘How many does it take to fuck off and leave me alone?’
I tend to regard myself as a bt of a plug ugly and seldom find much argument. recently at school we had to have photos taken for classroom signifiers (special needs school) and the process went something like this;
‘Gary, smile. Click. Next’
‘Trevor, smile. Click. Next.’
‘Don. Um, I’ll take a few and you can pick one. Click, click, click, click. Hmm, maybe if we changed the lighting…’
I found it odd that the kids didn’t seem to see it that way but a colleague and friend just said, ‘You smile a lot when you’re with the kids and they know you mean it.’
I’m a very tall man with low eyebrows that make me look glowering rather than dour, and I’ve been told a few times to smile more (including “it only takes six muscles to smile and 42 to frown,” or whatever the numbers are), but always by women. Never a man.
I, like NeverTheTwain, have a striking, rather alarming expression that seems to tempt people to try to read me and even take it personally. And like NeverTheTwain, it is almost always female buttinskies who presume to intrude on my mood and question my affect. They seem to believe it’s a woman’s prerogative, given their legendary sensitivity in such things. I enjoy disabusing them of this stereotype.I did have a fellow come up to me in the produce section of the grocery and start lecturing me about how they treat the bananas I was purchasing with RADIATION. My exchange with him was like the one you just had, but much shorter. I have a knack for shutting folks down quickly.
Ophelia’s not ugly–she’s serious. That, of course, means her face doesn’t light up immediately with winsome frivolity & flirtatiousness when she meets someone. That’s OK in a man, it is a crime if you are a woman.
Will people please stop whingeing about being frowny or ugly! Sheesh….try being ginger!
*big frowny ginger smile*
Actually, I had a grizzled old fart like that try to trap me in a phone box outside Finsbury Park tube station once – wouldn’t let me out – just kept pushing the door hard to keep me in. Never figured it out.
‘He picked a fight with me, so I needed to engage’
A rare but wonderful moment, as long as you know you out-gun him in passion, intelligence and determination. Enjoy.
I’ve got a severe kind of face and so have had the “Cheer up” thrown at me quite a bit, though I’m usually in good spirits. If I was in low spirits it would not make them any higher, to be told I look like a miserable cow. Last encounter was when I was at the bar buying a round, and a youngish bloke said, “You look fed up,” so I said, “I wasn’t until some dick started talking to me.” Actually the poor dude was just lonely and wanted to start a bit of a conversation I think. Hacks me off though.
My neutral expression (when I’m paying attention to my surroundings) isn’t frowny, but apparently when I’m thinking hard about something I do frown. And when I’m interrupted in that thinking, I can produce a look that freezes water (I can’t reproduce it in a mirror, I just know it by people’s reaction to it.)
I remember being in the grocery checkout line, thinking hard about a work-related problem that I almost had the answer to… and being told by the jackass in front of me to smile. He actually physically recoiled from the look he got in return, muttered something about “I guess you didn’t like that”, took his groceries and left. That made me smile.
So how does one answer the question “What would it take to make you smile?””Smiles are fifty bucks, big boy, and the price goes up from there.”
“Charm. Or wit. Sorry.”
“The whole circus. One clown doesn’t cut it.”
Ha! That would have been funny.
Trouble is, he was unmistakably charmless, as is probably obvious from my description, so I wouldn’t have been able to pull it off. I don’t know, maybe I was bristling with visible awareness of his freedom from charm even though I wasn’t really fully aware of his presence (you know how you kind of see something but at the same time your mind is elsewhere so you don’t really see it, and if you want to see it for real you have to shift your attention to it? it was like that) and he picked up on it and was completely right to shout at me. Well, right from his point of view.
it’s great to hear that you stood up to the big bully. Big bullies subsequently end up crawling to those whom they abuse, when they finally discover that they’ve been isolated by all right thinking people. He’ll rue the day. He didn’t even have the wit to abuse you on neutral territory, instead chose his own space. What goes around comes around.
I haven’t read all the posts (you guys are prolific!) but I really like Dana and Cam (can we go out for a drink sometime? Ophelia will vouch for me–I think). So…clearly this guy is so much a representative of all men who think that it’s a woman’s place to smile/be pretty/ be accommodating and as for me, I’ve just adapted to it as part of my (midwestern) life. I too have a turned down face, but believe me, nobody ever asks me why am I not smling any more, because goddamn it, I smile at people all the frigging time! A+ to the lovely Ophelia for speaking reality.
One more thing: just read a few more posts, and to Never the Twain, I think that women who say such things to men HAVE TO BE older women, because they think they have the right, in an auntie-grandmotherly sort of know-it-all way, which is much different from the men who say such things to women, because it’s the woman’s ROLE to act and look in a way that will be pleasing to the sight. Yes?
I have a big day’s work ahead of me and am typing this on the fly into my palmtop while eating my breakfast. I have not had time to read all the 110 comments above on this interesting thread, bu hope to by tonight.
Just in case this angle has not been covered. The crucial bit IMHO is the grizzled old garden potterer’s opener:
You then made exactly the right counter-move, Ophelia. You did not accept the question on the asker’s terms, but replied with one of your own:
As is well known to lawyers, TV hosts, shock-jocks and other inquisitors, asking a question puts the asker straight into the power chair. The quickest way to tip them out again is to fire back a counter-question, polite or less than. Another good tack is to stare back in silence, as if the asker is some sort of curious alien low-life worthy of closer examination. I notice that you did that, too.
Well done. Full marks from me.
The weakest position one can assume is that of interrogee. When under questioning in a courtroom situation, this is intrinsically the trickiest of all to handle. (Been there.)
On reflection, perhaps the poor old grizzled gardening bastard’s problem is that nobody has ever taken any notice of him, except perhaps the odd snail or earthworm.
Worth interrogating him on those lines perhaps, on some future sunny day.
Kiki!! What a thrill to see you here. Yes I’ll vouch for you…Kiki is Karen, or in an attempted Edinburgh accent lifted from our Latin teacher, Kahrrren. We were best best best friends in school; inseparables.
Funny, Keeks, on a later thread I’m saying hard things about your old playmate Martin Amis. I do not like his most recent novel.
Ian, maybe so, but good god, there’s a community center two blocks away, he could go be a volunteer coach or something. Or he could just say hello pleasantly. No; that confrontation may have included loneliness, but it certainly wasn’t limited to loneliness; it was mostly bossy sexist rage.
You’re right about the counter-move though. I wasn’t going to – I was just going to stare in outrage for a few seconds and then stalk away, but something in me pushed for more. I wanted an explanation, dammit.
Ophelia: The irony about the anonymous gardener is that he is now world-famous, even if only thanks to this thread.
Perhaps you could make his day on next encounter by providing him with the link to this thread. If he doesn’t have a computer of his own, he could perhaps access one at the community centre.
The poor bastard obviously had no idea what a Pandora’s Box he was opening.
While visiting Malaysia, I attended a wedding.
It was *very* hot, and I was completely miserable.
At one point an older man came and introduced him to me. His English wasn’t good. It sounded like he was asking me to smile, because I might upset the bride and groom.
I was bloody furious – but held my tongue, made an excuse, and walked off.
I had a rant to one of my Malaysian friends who had also been at the wedding, and she cracked up.
It appears that the man in question had a name that was pronounced as Smi-lay, and he was introducing himself as the father of the bride.
*blush/facepalm*
Oops. Stupid me. *blushes harder*
However: That embarrassing occasion was the only time I have been anywhere remotely close to having a man ask me to smile. Ever.
…
Hmm… Actually, that’s not *entirely* true. I suppose that, if I’m clearly in a bad mood, someone might ask me what was bothering me in the form of: “What’s put that scowl on your face?” But even then, that’s a different tone, inflection, and relationship than what you’re describing above.
U.C. Oh dear! Well…probably no need to blush though. Mr Smilay will have known there was a language barrier, so won’t have felt rebuffed.
Ian, that’s quite a good idea. I think I should print the whole thing and drop it off next time I go by there.
Ophelia,
Please keep us all posted here on future developments. Also. on the printout, be sure to include a copyright claim. After all, Hollywood is just down the road (if my memory of US geography serves me well) and you don’t know how Mr Smilewhydontyou is connected there.
The TV and film potential is huge. It’s got everything: familiar situation takes surpising twist; grumpy old bastard (where’s he coming from) wades in where angels fear to tread (and even God is uneasy); huge symbolic and metaphoric potential; multiple levels; a situation most can identify with straight away. I could go on.
It could finish up bigger than The Simpsons. Then there’s the prequels, sequels & book rights, and the spinoffs like promo gardening gear.
As I have put on about 3 of the 117 posts on this thread, that should entitle me to about 3%. Of something. Don’t worry: I could use it right now.
;-)
No, you are not! I have only seen a few pictures of you, but from what I have seen you have a quiet mature elegance, combined with a wonderfully colourful clothing style. And, as an aside, a marvellous voice.
Steve – am too! :- )
Ian – hmmmI doubt it – no car chases, no (literal) explosions, no dangling off the sides of buildings. It would have worked as a Seinfeld episode though – I was a bit of Elaine and a lot of Frank Costanza.
Those are all easy to work in as sub-plots. Don’t lose sight of the main event.
I’d like to offer my services in a walk-on role as the Gay Neigbhor (TM). I come with my own transition music and audience applause cues.
All right, I’m beginning to think we can sell this. Seinfeld meets Modern Family, plus explosions.
Or I suppose we could go the Northern Exposure route, instead.
Now you’re cookin’.
[…] On not smiling. Also subjecting random hollerers to the Spanish Inquisition. […]
Snappy Answers to Stupid Questions:
“My entire family not being killed in a plane crash yesterday.”
“Crack. You got any?”
Weird encounter. What is it about a culture when it’s ok for a random man to say to a random woman that she should smile? One thing I wonder about is that it seems to be specific to some countries or regions. I live in France and while we have our share of sexism and machist attitudes, I never, ever, encountered a guy who just told me, point blank, that I should smile. And I’m not particularly cheerful or smiling in everyday life. I’ve had, over the years, some annoying encounters with blokes who tried to chat me up in the street or on a train or any kind of awkward setting, even guys who obviously thought they were witty when they were simply clumsy, but not one began by demanding that I smile.
Wow…just wow. I’m not beyond saying something stupid to someone. It’s hard to tell with the written word, but the guy may have been meaning in a perfectly nice way. Kinda like I hear all the “god bless you’s” all the freaking time. But if I had said it, and then realized you were offended, I would have apologized profusely and been on with my day, probably being a little less sure of my self for a while. What I would not have done is argued with a fellow human over something so mundane.
I always suggest that you pick your battles wisely. It’s easy to make enemies in life. If this was worth it to you. then I have no complaints. I wasn’t there. The story just makes me sad and makes me not want to walk the dog for fear of offending someone or being offended. But if I stop and scold everyone who offends me, I’d have no time left. Of course, I’m also a guy. Take it for what it’s worth.
Guy was obviously a prejudiced jerk.
That said, I’m a guy whose happiness doesn’t show on his face. Even when I’m outrageously happy, it doesn’t really show on my face.
I get told all the time that I need to smile more. This does come from men sometimes, but the vast majority of time it comes from women.
Didn’t read all the comments, so I’m not up on the conversation to this point. Whenever I’m walking down the street, I give a smile and a nod to anyone I pass. If it’s someone I regularly pass, I’ll throw in an occasional wave or say hello. I suppose it’s just being polite and I always like it when people smile back. I had that sort of southern family where my grandparents would sit on the porch all day and wave at every car that went by. My first thought as I read your account was that he had seen you on occasion and was trying to make friends. Maybe just get to the point where you’d exchange a smile and a wave. The suggestion that it was due to your gender makes me think a bit, though. I’ve said similar things to customers in my business on many occasions. When I think about it, I have to admit that the majority of the time, it tends to be the women or gay men that I say those things to. I mean, I’ve said those sorts of things to the seemingly straight men that I’ve gotten to know over time, but if I’ve only seen them once or twice, and if I’m remembering correctly, there does seem to be that pattern. I’m going to go back and read some of the comments now and see if this means I’m a horrible person.
I just remembered this- I work for medicare. They have started a new “policy” where they have posted on literally every open space a reminder to “smile- the beneficiary can tell!” and there are mirrors and smiley faces posted on every PC and workstation, as well as randomly throughout the building.
You guys would be apoplectic and unable to work. It’s incredibly stupid and condescending… to everyone.
Rich –
In principle, sure, but as I pointed out in reply to a similar suggestion above, he wasn’t. I was there, so I know what his manner was. He was decidedly hostile – it wasn’t a flirtatious or chatty or friendly “whatwouldittaketomakeyousmile,” it was an angry one. It was basically “how the fuck dare you walk right past my house and my yard while I’m pottering around in that yard and not make eye contact and smile and say how do?”
As I said…I know from experience that doing nothing is not necessarily the wiser course. I also said that if it had been a friendly overture of course I wouldn’t have picked a battle. It was a very hostile overture, and then when I questioned it, it escalated into a great deal more hostile. The guy is a nasty piece of work. He had no qualms about sneering at my ugly face and repeatedly telling me I’m not a woman. I’m not a bit sorry that I resisted his claims. (I also didn’t say anything personally insulting to him. I didn’t tell him he was ugly, I didn’t even tell him he was rude; I just kept telling him that I was allowed to walk on the sidewalk and didn’t have to explain myself to him, and then toward the end I speculated that he wouldn’t ask a man that question. [Which he may have misunderstood as an accusation of cowardice, come to think of it…But then again, though I didn’t intend it that way, there of course was an element of cowardice in it.])
Note how it ended. He admitted it was none of his business – and that was that. Did I really do something so terrible by insisting that my face is none of his business and that he shouldn’t tell women how to look just because they happen to be walking past his house?
I agree you should pick your battles, and I think that one cried out for picking.
Gabby – do you live in a city? When you say “Whenever I’m walking down the street, I give a smile and a nod to anyone I pass” do you mean even on a busy city street? That would be 1. physically impossible and 2. crazy-looking.
Seattle is a funny kind of city – most of it is weirdly low-density. My neighborhood is on the edge of downtown, but it’s also on the top of a steep hill, and it’s mostly low-density. The street I was walking on is all houses, to be sure, so it is the kind of street where you could smile and nod at everyone if you chose to. It’s true that I don’t choose to. But then…that’s one reason I live in a city. I want to be able to be free to make that choice. I like to zone out when I walk, or, if I’m walking along The Wall where the view is, I like to stare at the view. Now, when I’m on the block where I live and the couple of streets at right angles to it, where I do know people (mostly through their dogs), I don’t zone out, in case I do see people I know. But beyond that? Well I figure people can get along somehow without a smile and a nod from me, just as I can get along without it from them. Actually no: what I figure is that we both prefer not to interact with every stranger we pass unless there’s some reason to interact. I don’t nod and smile at people in the library, either – I just try to avoid crashing into them. Same thing at the supermarket, and the drugstore, and on the bus. The bus stop is a little different, because you’re there for awhile. There is a funny little miniature community thing about waiting for a bus – you become The Group That is Waiting for the 45 Bus. Then the bus arrives, and you disperse.
Sympathies to getting into an argument when you weren’t looking for one.
It sure seems like people often don’t know how their statements will be seen from the other side, does it? From intent, he may have just been hoping to make you seem happier – of course his actions were totally sexist and rude, if benign.
Personally, I’ve found I just keep a smile or ‘Just lost in thought’ which makes things easier, but it’s hardly a learning experience. I always think a smile given freely is something wonderful, and I like to stop and talk with people… But less so with entitled folks like this guy. I probably would have given a sideways remark about his yard!
I wonder if there were a way to turn it into a learning experience for him without him getting angry about it. What if, right?
Really really really – I do know the difference between a clumsy, even intrusive, but still basically friendly overture, and a nasty hostile truculent one. This one was not the first; it was the second. Really.
The irony is that you two were MADE for each other.
Yeah I’m in the city, but it’s a small one. I suppose I do look a little crazy at times. I guess I’m just not getting all the details in the right light. I live on the outskirts in what’s referred to as the ‘ghetto’ around here and both of my shops are downtown in the business district (a distance of only a dozen blocks or so apart). Guess I’m just a small town boy, as they say.
Why do some men think a woman walking by herself is an open invitation to approach or address her? Whether in a friendly or hostile fashion.I don’t have a problem with a nod and a good morning/ afternoon, but there are some men out there who see any response (an answer or a smile) as positive reinforcement to keep the damn conversation going. Funny, how men don’t ask me to smile or ask where am I going on this lovely day when I am with my husband or kids. I have a right NOT to speak, NOT to be friendly and to walk WITHOUT being disturbed.Or am I asking too much?
OpheliaI just saw a brief comment from you on another blog where the question from the gentleman was worded a little differently and comes off a lot more angry. If that’s the case, then i get it. I just didn’t read it that way in this post.
Hey Bob? Fuck you.
Gabby, no prob. I didn’t make it clear enough in the OP that he was frankly hostile from the outset. (It became clear during the resulting shouting match that he’d seen and noticed me often [which is massively creepy] and had been resenting my walking past, my face, my expression, my failure to notice his presence, for years. I was totally unaware of any of this.)
[…] been oblivious. (I’m out of the loop.) But PZ did a post on it this morning, mentioning my eccentric neighbor along with Elevator Guy, and along came lots of men’s rights idiots to say lots of idiot […]
It certainly is a strange encounter, I don’t know what was going through his head. If I saw you walking around the time looking all grumpylike I probably would have said something, but I would have been playful about it.
Seriously? Or is that a joke.
If seriously…why? Why would it be your business what I walk around looking?
I’m afraid this is exactly what caused me not to shrug the whole thing off – this assumption that I’m not allowed to walk around “looking all grumpylike.”
It’s especially tiresome because, as I mentioned, that just is how I look – it’s how my face is. To not look like that I would have to consciously keep a perky look on my face the whole time I was outside. I’d rather wear a fucking niqab!
A stranger “playfully” saying something about how grumpy I look as I walk around……………well that’s just not something I want in my life, frankly.
I’ve had people tell me to smile more a few times, invariably women. One woman gave me a five minute drubbing for being too frowny, since I would (obviously) get a lot more friends if I didn’t stare at the ground and frown so much. This was in high school, when my desire to socially interact with my peers was basically at a low ebb anyway. I believe my entirely less impressive than yours response was, “But I like the ground, it’s where you find the neat weeds and bugs.”
… are made by good fences. And one of your neighbors – I use the term loosely – apparently seems to have ridden roughshod over a quite reasonable definition for a civilized fence. While absent your update I might have suggested your response was disproportionate – benefits of turning the other cheek and all that, particularly since it’s apparently supported by game theory, in light of it his comments seem simply rude – to say the least.
But as to your question whether men (straight) would ever say that – or variations of it – to another man, and even with the snarling part, it seems not implausible. I see from one link provided by a Google search on rudeness in society [2.2 million hits]:
“We’re Ruder Than Ever, Poll Finds… ‘It’s about the daily assault of selfish, inconsiderate behaviour that gets under people’s skin on the highways, in the office, on TV, in stores and the myriad other settings where they encounter fellow Americans.'”
As to the particular phrasing he used, that may be somewhat characteristic of communications between men and women and might even be considered somewhat sexist. But I think it is an excess of political correctness to reject vive la différence as a reasonable philosophy and guide for behaviour, although that does need to be tempered by context as to what extent is appropriate. So I expect that if he had put his comment in a better package and delivered it with more courtesy and consideration – and some humor – he might have even won the smile that he apparently had hoped to elicit.
And as for “ugly”, that seems a very long way from being the case and one might suggest you are overly and unnecessarily sensitive on the point. Although the concept of ugly and beautiful is an interesting and problematic social issue itself in general as, in the case of humans anyway, that frequently seems to translate into sexual desirability which apparently can be as much a curse as a blessing. I’m reminded of an observation by Jacob Bronowski – The Ascent of Man – that “… the environment exacts a price for the survival of the fittest; it captures them”.
You may have a “frowny” face, Ophelia (and that is YOUR impression, not an “objective truth” written in stone), but, at any rate, it never killed anyone to be friendly. I wave and smile to my neighbors as often as I’m able to, and neighbors wave and smile at me on occasion, be they male or female — and, at least speaking for myself, I don’t necessarily intend to bed or commit unspeakable acts with any of them. It makes ME feel better to engage in that sort of friendly connection, by the way, as transitory and superficial as it may prove to be in the end.
Judge not, lest ye be judged. (Some religious sayings, in spite of their tainted provenance, still ring true.)
People are lonely, often clumsy, etc., but — unless they issue threats to your safety, or touch you in any way, or point sharp or dangerous things in your direction — give people a break. No one is perfect. The guy was artless and possibly obnoxious, sure, but it may well be that he LIKES you, feels lonely, and made a shitty attempt to connect with you the only way he knew how.
It’s easy to jump on a high horse, and look at things from that detached height. Less easy to stay “on foot”, look others in the eye and try to connect, with all the attendant risks, but possible pleasures as well. I often remind myself of that point too.
Somewhere along the way, men got it in their heads that it was the job of women to make them happy. This extends to how a man feels about how a woman looks and how the man reacts to the mood they infer the woman is projecting. “Come on, smile.”, is not so much a wish for you to feel better as much as it is a request or more likely a demand, so that the requester can feel better. It’s really quite insidious, and no, I don’t really care if you think I am overstating things. I have seen this interaction often enough to know exactly what I am seeing.
I’ve had this same kind of thing happen to me. Granted, not quite as dramatic but similar.
I’m a straight guy in my twenties and had a girl at work (way better looking than me) who I’ve never spoken to until this point say to me “Don’t you ever smile” in a sneering-like tone. I mustered as smug a smile as I could and said “What are you, the smile police” and walked away.
I don’t know what this was about and still don’t. I doubt she would have said this to a girl, from my experience, girls tend to be less pointed when criticizing each other. I didn’t think she was exhibiting female privilege at the time nor do I now. My best guess is that she was annoyed about something and it spilled over onto me. When it comes to situations like this it is very hard for me to say with any certainty what exactly happened. For all the crap post-modernist thinking has wrought, it does at least point out that our perceptions are different from one another and as subjective perceptions, in an objective sense cannot be satisfactorily evaluated. The effect of these perceptions can be evaluated but there is a very messy interface between our own perceptions and what can be determined or observed in a more subjective sense.
Happens to my partner all the time. When she replies with death glares she gets the inevitable “awww, come on, don’t be like that love!” which enrages both of us to no end.
Note that she is small and blonde, while I am a tall, broad, dark male. I can cruise around sneering ’til my face falls off and noone bats an eyelid, but she can’t be outside in a cranky mood without some jerk trying to fix it for her.
Well that’s kind of an odd thought that she was trying to “fix it” for me. My point is that I’m a male that have had it happen to me. My theory is that people get in their own bad moods or good moods so when someone frowning comes along and it bugs them they respond by saying “hey smile for me” or “don’t you ever smile” or something like that. It’s all them and not much to do with the frowner, just wrong place wrong time. As to your friend, if she is small and blond and guys are clumsily hitting on her by trying to “fix it” for her well there is that. I recognize that this is may have been what was happening with Ophelia. My point is that it is difficult to know what the other is thinking. So lets not take things way beyond what we have cause to judge them as. Isn’t this part of rational thinking?
On a kinda related tangent: I so wish that it was as acceptable for women to hit on men and vice versa; i think it would be a better place to live in. Unfortunately, it isn’t like that and girls pace around in agony hoping that that guy they like will notice them and ask them out, meanwhile a-holes thinking that because they are the initiators that gives them some right to all the women that catch their eye so they make life a hell for many people.
Bryan, I was referring to the original post. If I was replying to yours I would have quoted you.
Even if that was the case, I think the onus would have been on the guy to give Ophelia a break, when his first communication attempt didn’t go over the way he intended. Who do you think was really “jumping on a high horse” in this exchange?
Oh for fuck’s sake.
No it may not. I was there, you were not there; you can’t possibly know what “it may well be.” I was there; he was not trying to connect with me, he was telling me off.
Now, all I did to him by way of not giving him a break, in the first instance, was to ask – in a tone of suprise and indignation but not venom or rage – why he would ask me such a question. He then charged at me, shouting “Do you even know how to smile?” and shouting it again and again while I kept replying that he had no business asking me that.
I didn’t withold any break from him. And don’t tell me what the guy was when I was there and you weren’t. Jeezis. “The guy was artless and possibly obnoxious, sure” – what the hell makes you think you know better what he was than I do?
Oh, I see windy already said that. Well, I said it moar.
And another thing. (“Jenna” has probably put me in a temper.)
Oh please. I don’t think I’ve ever said it here before, in nearly 9 years of posting. I said it in the context of this particular incident. I don’t think that’s much evidence of being too sensitive on the point.
As an overweight, hirsute man, I can tell you that I have had other hetero males ask me “why the long face”, or tell me to cheer up. Strangely enough, I have had women ask me the same thing.
Maybe instead of asking the guy if he would have talked to another man like that you should ask yourself if you would have reacted the same way if a WOMAN had asked you the question? And if not, doesn’t that make you the sexist one?
Yes!!!!! Well spotted! Of course it does! Instead of dealing with the thing that had actually just happened and was still happening, I should have asked myself a hypothetical question, realized I was the sexist one, and humbly apologized to Surly Bastard From Hell for walking on the sidewalk in front of his house while ugly.
Thank you so much for clearing that up for me!
Similarly, if a woman followed me into a hotel elevator at a conference at 4 a.m. and invited me to her room for coffee, if I didn’t think she was being sexist, then that would make me the sexist one.
Oh this is wonderful, it makes everything so much easier; there is no such thing as sexism any more, except for women not thinking women are being sexist toward other women. There is no male sexism. We can all pack up and go home.
Quick, somebody strike up an anthem.
I think what chariot was expressing was that while this guy’s behaviour was undeniably assholic, why or how is it an example of sexism?Why did you view it through that particular lens? Some grumpy old fart comments at strangers. Nothing new there. I think the point about a woman asking you the same question was to illustrate that you immediately leapt to the sexism angle, obviously by virtue of the fact that the commenter was male. Where he a she you would just have assumed she was just being rude.
Why even raise a question of sexism?
Also, if you are under the impression that men never get asshole comments from this kind of douchebag, it just isn’t so. A fact I can personally attest to.
It may be true that if some large physically threatening guy walked by he is more likely to hold his tongue. That has zero to do with him affording men some elevated level of respect and a lot to do with him being afraid. Some weedy looking guy walks by, fair game for the bitter old git brigade.
I am not saying that this guy was not being sexist. I honestly have no idea what goes on inside the mind of a person who feels compelled to pass remarks at strangers. I am suggesting that it far from a foregone conclusion that he was being sexist. I might well be an equal oppertunity asshole.
Pray tell, who is Jenna and what does she have to do with it? I see the only reference on your site is to one Jenna Jameson in your post titled “Alas, Poor Dworkin” [I knew her not]. Assuming that connection or allusion, while I will at least sympathize with your apparently central argument “that most women from the ages of six to sixty-six seem to feel obliged to look as much like prostitutes or porn stars in a state of violent sexual arousal as they can possibly manage”, probably a consequence of social and biological evolutionary pressures and requirements culminating in a problematic case of the tail wagging the dog – no pun intended, your related observation on pornography – “treating women as toilets (very literally)” – seems to be looking at the issue from the wrong end of the telescope and may be symptomatic – methinks the ladies, sometimes in any case, doth protest far too much.
And that attitude seems to be based on an aversion or recoil to Yeats’ “Love has pitched Its tent, In a place of excrement” and, consequently, on being deeply offended that “Gawd” should have so (badly) designed us and, in the case of atheists anyway, of not being able to complain to the manufacturer. Seems to me, albeit as a man, that it – “pornography and prostitutes and porn stars” – is more a case of giving pleasure, a very human use of human beings. Although, as in all other appetites and forms of behaviour and physiologies, there are pathological dimensions and aspects. But I really don’t see that humans giving pleasure, or more particularly even selling pleasure, to each other is intrinsically immoral, regardless of which sets of nerve endings, and where, are in play.
As for women’s perspectives from the other side of the coin, the apparently well-known atheist, gay, pro-evolution, pro-science blogger, Greta Christiana – no “touchy-feely irrationalist” she, wrote a book titled Sex Work: Writings by Women in the Sex Industry. While there is any number of problematic aspects there I think it a tad arrogant for feminists, if not women in general – many in any case – to be deprecating the perspectives of those women in that industry and to be attempting to speak for them.
While I will quite readily agree with you – as I have already – that the “Surly Bastard From Hell”, hereafter SBFH, was decidedly rude – at the least – one might reasonably suggest, I think particularly since you apparently suggested the connection, that stereotyping pornography and prostitution and porn stars, if not sex itself, the way you apparently do, as many do, is also sexist and that may have negatively influenced your response – seems to me you’re caught on the proverbial horns of a dilemma in deprecating the “catch me-fuck me shoes” and the like, and in characterizing yourself, inaccurately, as ugly (6 or 8 times) – and, likewise, the responses of Ms. Watson in the elevator at 4 A.M. and those of many others of a similar mind.
But, briefly, on the related point of the core, as I see it, of SFBH’s comment – smiles – apart from the apparent baggage attached, I’m reminded of the Wikipedia article on Boosterism which had part of an editorial by Sinclair Lewis:
“The booster’s enthusiasm is the Jeremiah force which builds up our American cities. Granted. But the hated boobies jibes are the check necessary to guide that force. In summary then, we do not wish to knock the booster, but we certainly do wish to boost the knocker.”
Seems that many people have a quite natural tendency in wishing to see their dispositions – sunny or otherwise – reflected in those around them. It can of course have problematic consequences – group-think for one – but it is not, I think, something that inherently calls for a nuclear deterrent …
When I lived in the city I walked a lot more than I do now and I got told to “smile” on a regular basis. Never ONCE by a woman. So I wouldn’t know how I would feel if a woman did it, but I suspect I would be just as irritated because I can’t imagine anyone, male or female, saying that to a man. This stuff happens so much that most people don’t even notice it and then get angry and defensive when you bring it up. Just last week a man on Hayley Stevens blog told her she was acting in a way that would make people not like her. Would he have said that to a man? Not likely. Recently on a political site in a thread an allegedly male poster made this comment after a brief and reasonable comment from a woman with “Don’t get many calls back from that first date, do you?” – when called out on this ridiculous statement he replied that she had gone into “hysterical convulsions” which couldn’t have been further from the truth. When further called out on his misogyny he replied that he could easily made that comment to a man. Sure you could. But have you? I suggest that any person on this thread who thinks women aren’t routinely discriminated against, attacked, demeaned and patronized do this simple experiment. Sign up on two similar websites that have forums or comment threads and choose a “male” username and avatar and a “female” username and avatar. Then post identical comments on both for a week speaking only in gender neutral terms. I think you’ll be surprised what you discover.
I think it was a mistake to react to him as you did. You escalated the encounter rather than defusing or deflecting it, and you both walked away unhappy. For what purpose? You could have turned it into something positive and lighthearted, but you chose to make it worse. Why? No one ever “wins” this sort of exchange.
Personally, if I had walked by the same house on a regular basis and the fellow was in the yard within reasonable speaking distance, I would have waved, smiled, and told him his yard looked great. Had I been so deep in thought that I was oblivious to my surroundings and he confronted me out of the blue about why I wasn’t smiling, I would have laughed and told him I was smiling on the inside.
The point is that it’s usually possible to control the “tone” of a conversation, but it does require having a clear idea of what we wish to achieve from the encounter. Hurting the other person is never a useful objective; when I find myself wanting that, I’ll either restart the conversation or terminate it altogether.
Amber Sherwood K said (#162): When I lived in the city I walked a lot more than I do now and I got told to “smile” on a regular basis. Never ONCE by a woman. So I wouldn’t know how I would feel if a woman did it, but I suspect I would be just as irritated because I can’t imagine anyone, male or female, saying that to a man.
Seems from several other posters here that has happened to men as well and apparently some of it came from women.
I suggest that any person on this thread who thinks women aren’t routinely discriminated against, attacked, demeaned and patronized do this simple experiment.
I’m sure that is generally quite true and I’m sorry that that is frequently the case – it’s obviously been a long struggle for women to gain the rights and protections that men have generally taken as a matter of course, and obviously there’s still quite some distance to go. However, I think it should be fairly obvious that there is quite a bit of “asymmetry” in our responses to each other – as members of the same and opposite sexes – and some of it is good and some it is bad, but some of it seems part of our differing bedrock and not subject to much in the way of change, short of some fairly draconian though imperfect procedures.
And all of those features, all of those differences, seem to manifest themselves as various stereotypes, of varying degrees of accuracy, which we all use to a greater or lesser extent and which bears some resemblance to “racial profiling” – I might ask you whether you act and react to all men the same way that you do to all women. And, apropos of which, even Ophelia’s comment in her “Alas, Poor Dworkin” post – “most women from the ages of six to sixty-six seem to feel obliged to look as much like prostitutes or porn stars in a state of violent sexual arousal as they can possibly manage” – while it may be reasonable as hyperbole, seems a rather questionable stereotype as far as accuracy is concerned, at least, and one I would expect that most women might, with some reason, take some exception to.
Personally, I think the bottom line is related to the issue of discrimination: perfectly reasonable to acknowledge and notice and respond to, even celebrate, our various differences; not at all so to curtail or limit any civil rights based on them.
At least once a week, I, a male of advanced years, meet someone new (never a female for this example) and the conversation goes like this: What do you do, Jerry? I reply that I am a retired lawyer. Then, here it comes — I hear some corney and unfunny joke that I’ve heard a hundred times about what bad guys all lawyers are.
I have gotten to where I answer by saying, “You know, it has been my experience that you show me a man whoo dislikes lawyers and I’ll show you a man who had to be forced forced to pay child support.”
To be fair, I have never been insulted by a person of the female persuasion at the moment of first meeting. The closest I ever came was when this woman & I walked out of the courtroom after a very difficult trial which we won and she started jumping up and down while yelling, “Thank you, Jesus! Oh, thank you, Jesus! Praise the Lord.” I reminded her that it always helps if she has a hard working lawyer. I have never been highly offended by this action because I realized that I had a nut case for a client and our protagonist should understand that she has a nut case for a neighbor.
Jerry
I would never say this kind of thing to a woman, precisely because I know it could be regarded as sexist. However, whoever you say it to, it is probably presumptuous and impolite at best.
As it happens, I did once say this kind of thing to another man. It was a bloke I knew from a local shop, and he was kind of well known for not smiling much, if at all. I bumped into him somewhere else, where he turned out to be as affable as the next man. Being even more rubbish at small talk then than I am know, I blurted out, “I don’t think I’ve ever seen you smile before.” This, as you can imagine, went down very very badly, and I knew straight away that I should never have said it. I was mortified.
Dan
Wrong! I walked away happy. If I had taken his rude unprovoked verbal aggression, then I would have walked away unhappy.
What crap this is. People are supposed to just put up with unprovoked verbal aggression? They’re not supposed to challenge or question it? Who made that rule?
O- thanks for responding. Like I said, You were there, not me. If this was so obviously a breach of your personal entitlements (I don’t mean that in a bad way- I couldn’t think of a more appropriate word), then defend it, at all means. My concern is that I have had people take offense when I was just meaning to be friendly. I don’t want to stop talking to people when I walk the dog. I talk to people even though I know we likely disagree on a great many things. But hopefully we can share a sunny breeze and a warm thought. I trust you when you determined this was not a “warm thought”, and I think that is important .
Sometimes I think the dogs have the right attitude. Occasionally there’s an off kilter Lab or Dachsund who decides he’d rather maul than sniff play. Spike looks at me as if to say, “what’s his problem?” and we move on to enjoy the next patch of grass.
I hope your next patch of grass is more pleasant.
Rich – quite – and I don’t do that, honest. I do interact with people when it makes sense. There’s a viewpoint a 5 minute walk from where I live, and it functions as a kind of outdoor living room (and there’s another one 5 minutes up the street). I pay attention to people there, and sometimes interact. I’m different on the busy shopping street – not usually interactive, just as others aren’t, but not as lost in the fog. But when just walking down an ordinary street…I allow myself to be lost in the fog. I may smile at other walkers who pass, but I certainly don’t check every yard I pass just in case there’s someone there I should say hello to. And then…1. his tone was hostile not friendly and 2. he elevated the anger level, not I.
Post #148 reads:
That is the kind of statement that sounds very silly on anyone’s lips, and positively mind-numbing when it comes from someone of reportedly skeptic leanings. I’ll tell you why: barring supernatural powers that you may claim to possess (which would automatically destroy any skeptic credentials you may claim), how in the world do you know what others think? Others whom you’ve never met, never known, never spoken to? I mean what they think, not what they do, regarding which there would be at least a way to verify the facts.
I’m a man, ergo I think that it’s the job of women to make me happy? Do I? You tell me — given that you may be graced with awesome mind-reading powers.
Please. Let’s get back to the fact-based universe.
If we claim to be skeptics, we should never make a statement whose supporting “evidence” solely amounts to just how strongly we believe in it, and nothing more. We routinely, and with good reason, indict that type of argument as fraudulent, and make mincemeat out of it, when it comes from the religiously-minded and the supernaturally-inclined. It should not get a pass when it comes from someone who claims to be “one of us”.
“Marco” how do you know “davetoepfer” is someone of reportedly skeptic leanings? And why are you making such a fuss about it almost 2 days later? I don’t know davetoepfer from adam; do you?
Post #154:
Good grief, Ophelia. Re-read what I wrote, and I never even suggested that I knew such a thing, or that I know better than you. I offered possible interpretations, which you are free to reject, politely and respectfully.
I’m a friend — or was. Your righteous, confrontational, rageful tone is very destructive.
Post#167:
Yes, you sound definitely jubilant.
Seemingly, the religious don’t have a monopoly on self-delusion…
Post #171:
A reasonable inference derived from the fact he is posting here. An inference which can be either correct or incorrect. If incorrect, I am off-target, and please tar and feather me. If correct, then I have a point.
Why am I making a fuss? Me?
Must be because I’m a troll, right? Not because I find this whole thing overblown, or because I was stupidly hoping for an intelligent conversation.
Marco – for heaven’s sake. If X who was not there tells Y who was there “The guy was artless and possibly obnoxious, sure” that is assuming knowledge. You could have said, for instance, “what the guy did sounds artless and possibly obnoxious”…but you didn’t.
What is my tone destructive of, exactly?
You minimized what happened. The guy 1. snarled at me 2. charged at me shouting when I asked him why he had done that 3. went on shouting and flung a number of personal insults at me. I didn’t do any of those things. He was not a nice man making a clumsy but friendly overture; he was a very nasty man trying to bully me and then trying harder to bully me worse. I did not do anything wrong. Ok?
Well that comment was a one-off, from nearly 2 days ago; is it likely that dave will reply? I don’t think so.
Yes, actually, you. I am allowed to make a fuss about this, here. You, not so much. If you want to have an intelligent conversation, dial down on the righteous tone. You weren’t there. You’re trying to tell me how to react to something that happened to me; that’s tricky territory.
Now, now, Marco. You are escalating the encounter instead of trying to engage in a friendly connection with Ophelia. Judge not, lest ye be judged, and so forth!
I wonder how worried Ophelia is going to be about losing friends she never knew she had.
My goodness, the internet is a veritable riot of presumptuousness at the moment. It’s like the death of Princess Diana all over again.
Dan
Heehee.
Dan said (#177): My goodness, the internet is a veritable riot of presumptuousness at the moment. It’s like the death of Princess Diana all over again.
I would say you’ve pretty well nailed it – from downtown even – at least a salient feature of it, although I wonder at the reference to Princess Diana.
But in any case:
Presumptuous: Going beyond what is right or proper; excessively forward.
Presumptuousness – audacious [“L’audace, l’audace, toujours l’audace.”] (even arrogant) behavior that you have no right to; “he despised them for their presumptuousness”
Although it seems that an important turning point is the question of rights, what rights of whom are being infringed or are being unjustifiably asserted? Are they issues of etiquette, conventional wisdom, courtesy or of civil rights? In the case of Ophelia’s “encounter” with the “Surly Bastard From Hell” [SBFH], I don’t think there’s any question – in my mind at least – that the said SBFH was decidedly rude and probably deserved having the riot act read to him. Although, as counsel for the defense or at least as a friend of the court, I might suggest some possible extenuating circumstances – “The Importance of Being Earnest” and the like. And might likewise suggest a disproportionate response [like that of Rebecca Watson], possibly a case of the straw breaking the camel’s back.
And in the case of Marco, as that seems to be the primary case in point from which you derive your conclusion, maybe he was also presuming to claim the rights and benefits of friendship – with or without justification and without the requisite responsibilities. But, here again, there is another side to the story, possibly exemplified by Massimo Pigliucci’s masthead, to wit, “truth springs from argument amongst friends” – presumably the standard, the flag, the goal that we all – particularly as atheists and skeptics – give some allegiance to. And in which case one might suggest some similar responsibility on the part of Ophelia to meet Marco at least halfway on his argument (which she may have done) – particularly as she did ask, “Lots of guys here. What do you think?” to start the ball rolling.
And, finally, the case of Ms. Watson and the supposed “Rape of the Lock”, er, foul ball on the field of elevator etiquette. While I will quite readily agree – and deplore the fact – that women, at least as the “weaker sex” [a questionable stereotype in its own right], are more frequently the victims of physical violence of one sort or another than are men and might therefore have more reason for apprehension in social interactions. However, one might also suggest that many women have made, presumptuously, more political hay out of that situation than is entirely justified – apparently some part of the quite justified motivation for Richard Dawkins’ comments on the issue over at Pharyngula. Seems to be quite a bit of justification for the arguments of feminism, but when it manifests itself, for one example of many, in the rather presumptuous argument, as may be the case in P.Z. Myers’ household with two females and one male (at least), on the necessity of ensuring that the toilet seat remains in the down position then that would seem to qualify as a bridge too far.
Sexual politics, in one form or another. My god, like a bunch of porcupines – mating – carefully, with frequent squeals from getting a nose full of quills … We have seen the enemy. And he is us …
Ok here’s the deal about Marco. As far as I can tell from searching, he’s commented here 16 times total. Before the 4 or 5 on this thread, the most recent previous comments were last November.
So I don’t know him all that well. Again – it’s like surly neighbor from hell, and it’s like elevator guy – it’s people who think they know you because they’ve been watching you in some sense, and who then think you know them back, the way we all sort of think we know people on tv. He may have lost track of the fact that I’m not as familiar with him as he may be (if he reads B&W often) with me.
And my “what do you think?” was about whether a man would say what surly said to a man; it wasn’t “what do you think?” about the whole thing (though of course posting about the whole thing implicitly asks that, in a way).
People who tell complete strangers to cheer up or to smile as if it were a perfectly appropriate conversational interaction and not a highly presumptuous intrusion deserve to then have to listen to an epic tale of everything that has ever gone wrong in the person’s life.
That’ll learn ’em.
Don’t want to be subjected to an extended list of what’s wrong, deliberately spun out long enough to cause you significant discomfort and make you late for wherever you were going if it turns out you’re rude enough to accost a total stranger regarding their appearance but just polite enough that when you can’t find a suave way to disengage from their painfully long and involved tale of woe you simply don’t, but instead suffer in faux-sympathetic silence until it’s finally over, half an hour or so later, and they release you to go on your way? Then don’t tell them to smile.
Ok, I am sympathetic – but on a lighter note, wait until you are trying to park your car in a ‘just big enough’ space and some half-blind old man stands between your eyes and the curb and starts shouting encouragement and giving orders.
Once, when this happened for the umpteenth time, I actually got out of my car and demanded to see his a) drivers licence and b) insurance, as I would hold him legally resposible for any damage to the cars. He was very rude, but he did get out of my way.
:- )
I love that long sentence, Pam.
Likewise. Not easy to do, I find anyway, without using more commas than found in a Russian novel and thereby losing the thread …
Can I suggest a new walking t-shirt with a smiley face on the front and a middle finger on the back?
He made a comment to try to start a conversation with you. Sometimes people talk to us in the world. We don’t have to respond. It’s not a big deal. Move on.
“so I won.”
No you didn’t. No one wins here. He gets to go on confident that ‘lesbian feminists’ are caustic bitches who never smile and always pick a fight when you talk to ’em and you’re on the internet hating on old men who don’t know any better.
It’s super hard to confront crazy shit and people without becoming angry, but if you do lose your cool you literally end up wasting your time and energy.
Ophelia, I just read your posting. To answer your question: Most straight men would not say this particular thing to a straight man passing by. If a straight man wants to be friendly to a man (and it can happen, you know) he would say something like “hey my friend, I hope you are not moody because of the weather” or “hey, are things so bad today?”
Now, if the other person, does not want to engage in such silly conversation, the one who asked should realize this and reply “sorry, I was just asking”. End of story.
I think the saddest thing in your incident is that he continued defending his initial question. Everybody makes mistakes. What he said was not a crime. Certainly, it was an advancement. But when you challenged him he should have immediately stepped back and apologized. I think (am I right?) that you, too, would have stopped there.
La la la la la la la.
Kim, no he didn’t; as I said, he snarled it at me; it was not a friendly overture, it was a hostile out-of-nowhere pugnacious rebuke of a total stranger minding her own business. Of course people sometimes talk to us, but we don’t have to accept hostile challenges from total strangers when we are simply walking on the public sidewalk. Of course it’s not a big deal. This is a blog post, not the New York Times. I have moved on.
Smoove, yes I did. I didn’t spend time afterwards thinking “Dammit, I let that rude bastard get away with shouting at me for walking on the sidewalk minding my own business.”
Takis, yes, of course I would. (And, to be clear, what he said was of course not a crime, but it [and his way of saying it] was strikingly, abnormally rude. It was not just an ordinary albeit clumsy overture.)
Ophelia, as one who has admired the quality of your mind as it has revealed itself in your writing, and who shares your interest in seeing rationality prevail over irrationality, and does what he can to foster such an outcome in his own coarctated sphere of influence, I’m surprised that this unpleasant, but brief, encounter with the rude geezer seems, despite your saying that you have “moved on,” to have preoccupied you for so long. Are you ordinarily so sensitive?
The gentleman gardening sounded like a crotchety geezer to be sure and of course I don’t think you’re wrong to be offended. I do take issue with the assumption that something like that would *ever* happen to a guy from another (straight) guy. Here’s my anecdote to the contrary:
I was out late in San Francisco (Halloween or New Year, I can’t even remember now) with my then girlfriend just strolling the streets uptown of Market near Church St when we were accosted by a shirtless male reveler in a Cat in the Hat Hat. (Was he straight? My gaydar isn’t perfect but it’s pretty good esp. after a few years in SF (Har), and I’m pretty sure he was in fact straight.)
It was noisy, and he shouted some kind of greeting to us first but before it registered on either of us and we had a chance to respond (we weren’t even sure he was talking to us, since we didn’t know him), he quickly followed up with something like “I guess you’re too fucking French to greet anyone in English huh?” (You get a lot of foreign tourists down Market street.) I replied with “You mean something like Hello! Nice night isn’t it?” and his eyes bugged out of his head as he mumbled an apology and backpedaled down the street. I was just grinning at the sheer absurdity/surprise of it all at that point and was not trying to be menacing or anything.
Factors that might factor in: I’m fairly tall and had about a foot on this guy, I tend to not smile in public situations either and have pretty close to agoraphobia when dealing with the public. I attempted a job that included a lot of dealing with the public at one point to try to force cure myself, failed miserably but I did get a little better at social survival. One insightful comment I was given there and have held as true wisdom ever since is that people are a lot like dogs. They can smell the fear/apprehension on you and respond in kind.
You probably had strikes against you in this guy’s mind before he could even see your face based on the way you dress etc to show that you are culturally very different from him. I get the same as a straight guy living in a predominantly straight area now as I’m an atheist, have long hair. lean left, in a conservative area (no longer SF obviously). Comes across in my mannerisms and dress.
Point being many people in this world don’t get past their xenophobia as a gut reaction before they use their logical mind to push it down. Try being a straight guy around Berkeley sometimes ;)
So yes, straight guys can absolutely get accosted by either sex/orientation for petty garbage too.
The moral of all this to me is that we are not ants nor animals to let xenophobia rule us and need to handle these situations with the practicing of the skill called tact. Another instance of pushing down our baser instincts through our intellect so that we can all rise up together.
It wasn’t an assumption though. I said I don’t believe it – I said that with emphasis, but nevertheless, that’s different from an assumption. Saying I don’t believe it points up the fact that I don’t know it, or assume it. And then I asked, so that points it up more.
And a man and a woman being challenged isn’t the same as a man being challenged, so that part doesn’t really answer my question. (It’s interesting and amusing though! I’m glad to know about it.)
? There was no fear or apprehension – I was barely aware of him at all. As I said, my mind was elsewhere (though nowhere in particular). It was just one spot in a longish walk – it was of no significance until he went off at me.
And as for the last part……….I didn’t want to handle it with tact. I wanted him to know he’d done a rude unwarranted intrusive aggressive thing, and the more he charged at me and shouted at me and called me names, the more I wanted to make clear that I wasn’t going to let him do that to me without a fight. It wasn’t an occasion for tact. It was an occasion for attempting to teach someone else to use more tact (the “tact” needed not to shout at people on the street because you dislike their looks).
I made it to comment #160, and I’m struck by two things.
1) Here Ophelia is making a point about how she can look however she wants, and it’s not up to other people to decide how she should look, and a number of people respond with “And you are just lovely!” I’m sure these people are friends and mean well, but why are you keeping the conversation on Ophelia’s looks? Isn’t her right to look however she wants, <i>free of the opinion of others</i>, the subject of conversation here? Why can’t we get past Ophelia’s looks?
2) Wow, a whole lot of people who weren’t there sure seem to think they know more about the encounter than Ophelia does. Sure, she doesn’t read minds, but she was there, watching his body language and hearing his tone of voice. I think she knows what happened better than anyone here.
Heh. Thanks Evelyn. I too find it remarkable what a lot of people think they know better what happened than I do, especially after I have repeatedly explained, no it wasn’t just a clumsy but friendly overture, it was actively nasty, and got massively nastier the instant I questioned it.
How could he even know the other man was straight if he’s a stranger? Gay men can “look straight” and even pass for it.
All that aside, why wouldn’t an angry old man say that to a “puny” enough looking male he sees walking around town? I’ve been screamed at by other males for riding my bike wrong or doing other things which are “incorrect” by their standards. I doubt he’d say it to a big strong black woman or a buzz cut and bulky dude walking down the street. I think it has more to do with the opportunity to make someone feel miserable if he thinks he can get away with it. Not necessarily because the person is female. I think you’re reaching to say it’s necessarily because you’re female.
Since smiling or waving is out of the question, you should’ve responded with something witty or crude. Maybe a flung high nazi salute or snapping back with ‘yeah, some good dick’. Bet you wouldn’t have to worry about them speaking to you again.
I get the feeling that he simply asked the question – not snarled it, since it turns out the reason for him asking this to begin with is because you had never waved nor smiled. Oh the horr0r.
You are simply on the defensive and took offence, unnecessarily. Saying you were challenged – like to a damn dual or something. lol. You couldn’t handle being around real , honest to goodness assholes.
Pick your battles and recognize that huge chip on your shoulder.
Red,
This is becoming surreal. From what do you get that impression, since you were not there and Ophelia was?
The encounter has been filtered through her perceptions and memory, sure, but I’m still more inclined to take the evidence of SOMEONE WHO WAS ACTUALLY THERE, rather than just decide for myself what happened.
If Ophelia was defensive, might it not have been because she was attacked? Did she take offence, or was she offended? It strikes me that she could and did handle being around an asshole, but for some reason you’ve decided she should have done so in a different way.
And what makes you think she didn’t pick this battle? She didn’t start it, but she could have ignored the guy and walked away. She chose to engage instead. Isn’t that the very definition of picking a battle?
The Nazi salute idea is pretty funny, but the rest of it is as stupid as latsot indicates. red somehow knows better, even though I was there and red wasn’t.
Yes I was challenged – not to a duel, but in the “how dare you?” sense – as a border guard challenges someone attempting to cross. As I’ve said several times, when I asked him why he would ask me such a question, he physically charged me, shouting “do you even know how to smile?” Yes I call that a challenge; definitely.
You “get the feeling” – based on what? I was there. He didn’t literally snarl like a wolf, but he said it in a hostile tone, not a jokey or flirtatious or friendly or light one. He did figuratively snarl. It was not ambiguous.
And as latsot says, and as I said in the post – picking the battle is exactly what I did. I’m glad I did. After all, he did in the end admit that it was none of his business. Who knows, maybe he actually absorbed the lesson. And I was spared wishing forever after that I’d defended myself.
I think what red is saying is, if you live within an ideology of victimhood then you’re going to see something which isn’t aggressive because of your sex as being so. If you believe so strongly that women are under siege in a sexist society, that you spend a lot of time picking apart all the little ways in which society is sexist against women, then even an exchange which isn’t really about sex is turned into one in your head.
Kai,
Yes, that’s what I thought Red was saying. That’s why I feel Red is wrong.
“if you live within an ideology of victimhood then you’re going to see something which isn’t aggressive because of your sex as being so. If you believe so strongly that women are under siege in a sexist society, that you spend a lot of time picking apart all the little ways in which society is sexist against women, then even an exchange which isn’t really about sex is turned into one in your head.”
Oh Kai, if this were my blog I would assign you some homework,
Give me the homework anyway. But consider this. Sexism in society against women isn’t really that unique. There’s plenty of sociological and institutionalized sexism against men for that matter. If men had hundreds of “gender studies” programs in their Universities to teach them how to be so hyper sensitive about every single “ouch” moment they encounter, then we’d have a bunch of over sensitive and whiny babies who can’t go through a day without feeling a personal slight against him for being male.
Wow. Yes, latsot, give Kai the homework anyway. Please.
Aw don’t be so fucking stupid, Kai. This wasn’t exclusively about sexism. It was partly about that, but not exclusively. Basically it’s about some random guy who’s an aggressive bossy loon – but I think it’s also likely that he wouldn’t have spoken that way to a man.
I don’t “live within an ideology of victimhood.” Try looking around before you jump to that conclusion. Homework.
But why is that important? Who cares. It’s not like I can go around thinking, “she did that because I’m a man!” That not only hurts peoples’ perception of me as a man, by both men and women, but it’s also unhealthy going through life like that.
What do you mean “why is that important?” How important? I gave it a few words in a blog post. How “important” is that? Not terribly. So why ask? Why is that important? Why is your concern to say my question is not important, important enough to be worth stating here? Nearly a month after the post?
As for who cares, several people care, as you can see from the comments.
Yes of course it is “like” you can go around thinking that. Believe it or not, you can go around thinking anything you want to.
As for hurting people’s perception…but what if it is in fact the case that some people really do think of women in such a way that they feel entitled to tell them what to do and what kind of facial expression to wear while walking down the street? Eh? Wouldn’t it be worth knowing that and trying to alter it?
In Mississippi not too many years ago white people felt entitled to tell all black people what to do, emphatically including what kind of facial expression to wear while walking down the street. Failure to comply could be fatal. Is that not important? Fortunately, women are nothing like that badly off, but I don’t see that as a reason to ignore all forms of male bossiness toward random women.
And no it’s not unhealthy going through life like that. I’m in robust health, I assure you.
In another blog, I am having a discussion about gender, particularly with respect to a Canadian couple recently in the news for declining to disclose the gender/sex of their 4 month old baby to anyone other than immediate family members. Many people are horrified at how awful it is to do that to a baby. So, clearly, it is important to some that there are actions and attitudes in society based on gender. If you challenge someone who does something unreasonable and/or unpleasant, asking them if they just did that “because I’m a man/woman”, maybe they would be sufficiently introspective to realize that perhaps they were being unreasonable, and stop the behaviour (or maybe they would just say, “No, I did that because I am a right bastard to everyone, regardless of gender, age, status, etc). In either case, the result is at least instructive, if not necessarily productive.
Anyone requiring homework can find my blog, I expect.
I agree, the guy is a jerk. But the post was about it being a matter of sex. Most of it was lead up, sure, so technically it was only one tiny part of the whole post. But I got the point as did so many others who commented on the gender politics involved in that little exchange.
Fortunately, women as a class never were. Black women were, of course. But more so for being black than being a woman. So making such an analogy is misleading imo.
I heard that, and I think it’s rather silly to freak out over that. It’s her son or daughter, it’s her choice since it wont hurt her kid when s/he grows up. People are afraid of things that are different. They think that since we do it one way doing it a different way will harm him/her which is unfounded. But picking apart every minutia of personal experience where a woman felt slighted for being a woman, as we’re prone to do in our Western cultures, doesn’t solve the problem.
No, Kai, most of it was not “lead up.” The post was about the whole thing, not just the possible sexism thing. The bit about “would you have said that to a man” was not the point, it was just part of the story. I’ve had women be gratuitously rude to me in public places too, and afterward regretted not properly telling me off. The post was about the whole thing. You don’t get to tell me what it was about.
Oh really. Is that a fact. Do you know anything at all about Saudi Arabia? DR Congo? Afghanistan?
It’s very easy for you to say that, but looking at the discussions around this issue, it becomes apparent that a lot of people are very uncomfortable with the idea of gender-free social interactions. (Not to mention those who are convinced that if you don’t start gender-stereotyping your child from birth s/he is at risk of turning out to be gay and/or transgendered.)
Well, if a woman has a negative interaction with another person, it *is* useful to understand whether the other party’s response was due to a gender bias. For example, if someone interacts with me in a way I dislike, it could be because they behave that way to everyone, or they behave that way to all women, or because I personally did something that triggered the unpleasant response. If I need to interact further with this person, it’s good to know which.
The Golden Rule is the tool rational people use to determine the morality of our actions. “How would I feel if that happened to me?” It’s a good tool, and serves us well in most cases. We see the problems when other criteria are used instead. Among the poor alternatives are scripture or tradition, etc.
But the Golden Rule is NOT directly helpful in this case. Because as males, when we ask ourselves “Would I feel offended if someone offered a casual complement of my physical attributes?”, the answer is almost always No.
I’m talking in normal setting, amongst adults. Locked in a violent prison is NOT a normal setting, and would be handled differently. No other similar situations occur to me. But in a normal setting on the street, on the job, on campus…if someone told me ‘you got a nice ass’, the response of any man wouldn’t be anything other than amusement and perhaps feeling a little flattered. When men apply the Golden Rule here, the answer is “I would not be offended if someone treated me this way.”
In fact, it leads us to opposite conclusions. “I would feel amused or flattered if I received this type of comment.” And also, “Having offered such a complement, I would not enjoy being chastened — those women are failing to apply the Golden Rule in their response.”
So what is being asked here id for men to ignore the Golden Rule, and instead, take it as given that the behavior is bad, without further evaluation. Rationalists are not good at that.
Hillscotc,
Yeah. I don’t think you get it. Here’s an illustration. Recently a friend of mine posted a photo to Facebook from the paper about her daughter being a “valedictiorian” in her school. I’m not sure what they called it, but there were a group of kids that were “super seniors” and her daughter was tops amongst those six kids. This was the first comment “She’s definitely the prettiest girl in her class” and every comment following was a remark of how pretty she is. None about her academic achievement. I have to ask…is this something that would happen if she was a male? Would someone say…”he’s definitely the best looking in his class” and ingore his academic achievement? I dont think so. Yes, its nice to have someone say you have a nice ass, but when it doesn’t define you it’s easy to be flattered and dismiss it.
I can think of several males (as well as females), ranging in age from 20s to 50s who would feel very uncomfortable receiving a “compliment” such as “you have a nice ass” from a co-worker. If a person of whatever gender “in a normal setting, on the job”, said this to a co-worker (of whatever gender) once, I would hope that someone would take him/her aside and explain that it is not appropriate to comment in such a way on a co-worker’s physical appearance. Persistent repetition of this behaviour would reasonably be termed sexual harassment. If a colleague said something like that to me in the hallway on the way to a meeting, I can just imagine spending the boring parts of the meeting thinking of a clever retort – maybe something like, “I don’t know about you, but I was hired for my brains, not my ass.”
Something that sort of fits in here, I think. There’s a TV advert currently playing every five instants on British TV for some online dating firm. It begins with a man with a guitar – presumably a busker – demanding in song that a woman on another platform should smile. The whole gig is that she replies with slight gestures and encourages the man in his improvised song. A couple of lines in, he’s asking what colour her pubic hair is.
[…] See? See? This is what I’m saying. It’s exactly what I’m saying. I was just walking up the street, mind elsewhere, as […]